Glenn Greenwald vs David Frum on Torture, Law & Israel - Bloggingheads.tv

Greenwald and Frum debate international law and Israel on Bloggingheads:
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Find more of Greenwald's political commentary below:
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[@ASkepticalHumanOnYouTube]

Ethically speaking, what does it matter if they're US citizens or not? Torture is torture. They're human beings and it affects them in the same way regardless of their nationality.

[@dianeaustin6706]

A Skeptical Human also, I submit that perhaps the one doing the torturing gives up his own humanity as well as stealing it from the one being tortured.

[@ASkepticalHumanOnYouTube]

I think Glenn laid out a very clear case for his argument that the treaty that the US has agreed to stares that what Switzerland tried to do is valid, given the provisions of the treaty. I also don't feel that David satisfactorily refuted that argument. He basically just expressed his basic discomfort with the idea of other nations interfering with the workings of the US.

[@MMODoubter]

Yep. Frum's stance seems to be that America is above the law. Even laws to which it has agreed. IMO, America became an official rogue state with the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

[@hongcha2020]

Great discussion. Loved it. David Frum and Glenn Greenwalld are both smart, articulate and well informed. As a guy who spent years in the collegiate debate world, this was a good mano-a-mano talk out. Bravo. Must admit though, I came into watching this from the opinion that International Humanitarian Law is a good thing and should be enforced every where. Thanks for posting this.

[@eashton42]

Good lord, thank you for posting that; it sometimes seems like so, so, so few people are aware of the fact that two people can disagree in debate and still both remain decent human beings worthy of respect. And it seems like the frequency is rising with which garbled insults and innuendos are accompanied by slurs against Jews (or, in the more polite cases, Zionists-meaning, of course, every Jew and every American and probably more). But I digress. Thanks for posting, even if it was a year ago. :-D

[@jeffreylebowski285]

Yes, to both comments above.

[@melita524e]

zionists do not mean all Jews. Many orthodox jews are anti-zionist.

[@mike58greenberg]

Mr. Frum, you have no obligation to defend atrocities. Neither of those committed by rogue nations, nor those committed by our own. You need to begin supporting lawfulness.

[@nathandrake5544]

In all my years of browsing youtube this shows up in my feed lol

[@pragyanpandey9252]

there is a mention of a specific convention in the start which usa along with 140 countries signed...which one is it...if anybody knows please leave a link

[@jongreenepwns]

If David Frum was as smart as he thinks he is, he won't subject himself to another such thorough dismantling as this. No way in hell he thinks he got the better of Glenn in this one. What an absolute slaughter.

[@ASkepticalHumanOnYouTube]

Frum did make one good point near the end. He argurd that our policy positions should not be driven by a desire to placate the angered radical Muslims of the world; they should be established on their own merits.

[@Camcolito]

One-sided beatdown from Greenwald.

[@nicholasdarraugh7626]

He said ''of course you send drones to kill them. what else you'd do?''! He also suggested opening up the economy of Egypt and doing away with the subsidies, at what point to my gaping surprise Glenn not only didn't object but kind of gave his approval to(I may be wrong since these power lackey rhetoricists throw so many things at the opponent, simultaneously)!

[@alanblanes2876]

Would have been better without shouting over each other, GLENN. Worth listening to regardless...

[@Tomasgolfer]

So, because those who authorized TORTURE are imminent people, they should not be prosecuted? WTF

[@furiousmat]

we finally get the complete breaking poitn at around 42:15. At a loss of real argument, the guy starts a long rant basically resting on the idea that he understands the real world, and the world is about power, not law, and blablabla. All irrelevant to the present case. So basically he's been arguing for the way he understands the law to be applicable, and once he got defeated on that ground he just retreated to some bullshittish philosophical grounds to argue that anyways, what applies isn't law but power. Nice admission of defeat. You can see Greenwald smirking at this point he's like "alright just go ahead and vent a bit". How would you not be amused, after having tackled your opponent's arguments point by point, to hear him descend in that sort of useless tergiversation and proudly pronouncing, as if signaling some superior, pragmatic understanding of things, that "power is power".

[@scourgeofsnackind]

6:00 he just straight up lies and says torture stopped in 2003? are you fucking kidding me? How can Glenn stand this guy, musta been all that lawyering that gave him the steel skin to just not burst out with a well-deserved denunciation.

[@AcresofAnarchy]

And?

[@michaeltrombetta6181]

it's pretty difficult to take David's side on this issue. It's an overt double standard....

[@72Haydar]

While I strongly disagree with David Frum's ideas, I respect him for not shying away from the debate as other Bush and Obama officials have. As for Glenn Greenwald, I commend you for for keeping this issue alive. This is a debate that the US Government and US citizens need to have. Enough time has passed since 9/11, that emotions are not as raw, and they can now reflect on there actions. The US needs learn from it's past, what decisions were good for the country and what decisions were bad.

[@AstralFrost]

David Frum is absolutely correct when he says that the foreign aid budget is tiny. It's absolutely tiny. In fact, and these are my words, it is a miserable and miserly budget.

[@airmark02]

Israel Frum : " is one of the smartest people in the room ? " LOL ~ Greenwald owns it ~

[@hipsabad]

a principled man versus a beached grouper

[@africanme117]

Frum is a known bigot. I totally dislike how he disrespected Dr. Webster Tarpley during a debate in D.C.

[@ClusterFoxtrot]

Thanks for the fun fact.

[@hipsabad]

it's painful to watch a man receive so many direct blows repeatedly

[@grizzlyvoodoo]

held his own better than most but Glenn gave him the biz

[@yechielgordon6847]

Michael Ratner of the Center for Constitutional Rights is also Jewish, and has spent much of his life for the past few years defending Guantanamo detainees and working to have US officials such as George Bush, Dick Cheney and Henry Kissinger prosecuted for their war crimes. For numerous interviews on this subject, with Noam Chomsky, Glenn Greenwald and others, see website of Democracy Now, a show founded by a great Jewish woman of our time, Amy Goodman.

[@proconsulaugustus]

Frum, as usual, gets destroyed.

[@emmettwalz]

He is merely weak tea Al Dershowitz. He's a shill for Israel (same as Dershowitz) but with weaker deceiving skills. His lies are more visible. Dershowitz has mastered the smoke screen of Talmudic sophistry to cover his lies, and make them sound reasoned.

[@nickbabcock4872]

I think of him as his successor.

[@smujismuj]

What happens to CIA operatives who engage in illegal activities? They get thrown in prison, David.

[@yechielgordon6847]

So is Greenwald, dude.

[@charlysue7013]

I NOW FEEL PROTECTIVE TOWARDS DOT COM I DONT CARE WETHER OR NOT HE HAS HIS FACTS RIGHT

[@gloiven]

Frum has an odd Peach INSPEDIMENT. (lay man's term - Forked Tongue.)

[@hipsabad]

Frum has to live with his twisted past actions, in effect he's exonerating himself here. And as he has attempted recently with trumpocracy

[@smujismuj]

See Frum See Frum defending the indefensible. See Frum stumbling all over his own non-logic. See Frum dissemble.

[@Canuck516]

Glen Greenwald is on the same level as Chomsky in my opinion.

[@hipsabad]

actual knowledge versus the zeal of an american converso

[@colinwoods9601]

hipsabad Frum has a realist view of international relations. It comes across as being cold and devoid of humanity, but it’s a harsh view of the world based in self-interest and the assumption that all nations are morally required to protect their own self-interest above all else. He believes that the world is best served by hegemonic powers providing stability through real power. Strong military, economic supremacy and sustained power can be ruthless towards less stable and erratic actors. It’s almost like choosing to adopt a stern paternal relationship with “lesser” nations with their own best interest in mind. It’s doing the undesirable and messy work that nobody wants to know exists in order for the rest of us to sleep safely at night. I’m not saying I agree with a lot of those tactics or principles, but I do think that Frum and other neocons truly believe they are doing what they feel is unfortunately necessary to protect the entire world from those actors who would prefer to see the power structures turned upside down and for chaos to bring about revolution resulting in fewer freedoms and religious law.

[@hipsabad]

are you familiar with The Brothers Karamazov?

[@melita524e]

Im a little in love with Glenn Greenwald. Why are the good ones always gay????

[@mns8732]

Frum so embarrassing as a Jew. He'd tell Moses turn back towards Egypt.

[@hipsabad]

bullseye. flail. repeat

[@ahagamama]

You do not have to be a soldier to be a prisoner of war. Too many faulty assumptions by this inferior debater, called David Frum.

[@semorton99]

you can only send out justice into the world with power---David Frum is a man of ideas and is brilliant

[@chaosmos24]

Yikes. Frum has rhetoric and nothing but. You could see him squirm when Greenwald explained the significance of signing a treaty. Why is Frum respected as a political commentator again? This is stuff you learn in middle school.

[@markseb2003]

Who cares about whether we "have a debate" or not? The important thing is whether we are informed and making good decisions. Too often these "debates" are a whole bunch of talking points and yada yada yada. In the end, people are fed a pack of lies and obfuscation, are more ignorant of the issues as a result, and horrible policy continues. How much better is US national security policy despite all the Great National Debates about torture & warrantless wiretapping a decade ago?

[@BNK2442]

The USA needs to be the king of the world! God, Frum is delusional.

[@BNK2442]

All I can think os is an interview I read with one of the creators of The Venture Bros.: "They want to mold the world into a specific shape that they really believe in, and if you don't believe in that, if you can't relate to that, it just seems crazy. What is the difference between wanting to develop insane weapons so America can dominate the planet and being the guy with the cat on his lap who wants to take over the world?"

[@kevinriordan5022]

Greenwald's framing of history and decision making is too small. Think bigger picture, bro.

[@shwwnn]

Greenwald asks him a factual question then looks at his paper and say: "that's correct" after Frum answers it. An obvious test of Frum's factual knowledge. He does this twice. It's equivalent of saying to Frum's face: "I don't trust your knowledge on facts, so let ME test U cuz what's written on MY paper MUST be true." He can check if they agree on facts, but only say something if there's disagreement instead of saying "that's correct" every time like he's conducting a test on the guy. Rude.