Glory and Decay: The Downfall of Númenor [Part Two]

[@andersonic]

No matter how many times I've read and heard these stories, when you retell them they're completely fresh and exciting. You and Nerd Of The Rings are excellent Tolkien raconteurs.

[@Clyde-S-Wilcox]

I've heard a lot of creators and even fans say "oh other people have talked about this already." Like, sure, but THIS creator hasn't and I wanna hear their take on it.

[@Cirdan.the.Shipwright.]

Her analysis is fantastic, as with Nerd of the Rings. I would recommend Steven Gibb/The Red Book, Men of the West, Jess of the Shire, In Deep Geek and ThePhilosophersGames, amongst many others. Just other amazing creators! 😊

[@GirlNextGondor]

Always nice to hear that 😂

[@Clyde-S-Wilcox]

@@Cirdan.the.Shipwright. She has the best voice though.

[@Cirdan.the.Shipwright.]

@@Clyde-S-WilcoxReminiscent of Lúthien herself.

[@Clyde-S-Wilcox]

"Accidentally discovering the art of embalming" "Well, after all that, he's still dead. ... But damn, he looks GOOD."

[@GirlNextGondor]

"I'm rotting away from the inside!" "Here, let me fix that for you. Now you should be immortal! ...Steve?"

[@fairytalejediftj7041]

Good is a point of view, Anakindil. The Valar fear your power. They fear what you may become. - Ar-Palpatine

[@ImperatorPenguin]

I wonder what Ar-Pharazon's name has come to mean among the survivors of the Fall, and by extension into the Third Age? 'Ah, don't be such an Ar-Pharazon.'

[@SNWWRNNG]

In LotR we only get Arwen's opinion on the fallen Numenoreans desiring immortality, as far as I'm aware. "But I say to you, King of the Númenóreans, not till now have I understood the tale of your people and their fall. As wicked fools I scorned them, but I pity them at last. For if this is indeed, as the Eldar say, the gift of the One to Men, it is bitter to receive."

[@Harbinger359]

Sauron has long since become my favourite villain in fiction; his potrayal in the Prologue of the Trilogy was always cool, and is in keeping with the stereotypical Dark Lord trope he helped to spawn, but since learning about the intricacies of his background I can't help but admire just how well Tolkien crafted him. Here is a complex character, who went through his own lengthy character arc; a rise and fall, a near-redemption, only to collapse back into Evil and rise again. He is competent, calculating, and relentless, making him as dangerous as his legends tell. Indeed he only loses by the narrowest of margins, a fact I think is often easy to forget even if you know it. And in the end he plays a huge part in the destruction of Numenor and the fading of the Elves. If not for Sauron, Numenor would likely not have met its end the way it did, and the Elves might never have left Middle-Earth.

[@andreykuzmin4317]

Ah, sweet memories. The moment I first read, how Sauron was captured and brought to Númenor I knew, that this kingdom lives on borrowed time.

[@coreyander286]

Really wish Tolkien had written more of "Tar-Elmar". So interesting to get a look at the Numenorean colonization of the Westlands, and possibly colonization by the Faithful rather than the King's Men, from the point of view of those caught between Numenor and Sauron and seemingly on neither side.

[@Crafty_Spirit]

It's a tale that mingles a secret history lesson on the days of darkness with plenty of esoteric experiences for the main character

[@tiltskillet7085]

_"Sauron has gotten a lot better at lateral thinking."_ Great point. The final corruption of Númenor and the creation of the Rings of Power highlight the guile and near-preposterous ambition of his schemes. Second Age Sauron = Best Sauron.

[@GirlNextGondor]

It's so true

[@Insider887]

In my opinion the seeds of the ruin of Númenor can be boiled down to one single thing and that is pride. When ones pride grows too big you become much less empathetic and much more self obsessed, when you become concerned only with the self in time you become more greedy and more selfish. Greed and Selfishness results in you only caring about getting what you want regardless of the consequences or those you may hurt in the process, as long as you get what you want then nothing else matters. This results in you becoming traped in a circle were you only care about getting more stuff for yourself but the more you get the more you become afraid of losing everything you managed to amass resulting in you tryng to get more stuff to feel safer but ends up only becoming even more afraid of losing all the stuff you gotten since it has become the only thing that matters to you. It is an endless circle were you are constantly trying to get more and more in an attempt to fill a hole that can not be filled no matter what you do or how much you have. When this happens life becomes less about living and more about avoiding death att all cost so that you won't have to leve behind all the nice stuff you have because that is the only thing you care about, nothing else matters and if you can't have it then no one can and you would rather destroy it all before allowing someone else to take it. It is a circle of suffering and when you spend a long time in this circle that is when you get someone like Ar-Pharazon the Golden, he was a man who wanted to have everything. Despite being the King of the greatest human kingdom ever to exist it was never enough for him. I also like to think that this is the reason why he never had any children to succeed him after his death because he simply didn't care about what would happen after his death, if he dies then it simply don't matter anymore.

[@jameshumphrey2345]

… so I’m not the only one who has caught the drift that Tolkien was not a cat person?

[@EriktheRed2023]

Siamese cats, at least, were not his cup of tea. In letter 219, he says "to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor". But he did have a cat playing the fiddle in The Man in the Moon, so he was not completely against the species.

[@GirlNextGondor]

In one of the fragments from Nature of Middle-earth he mentioned that it was mostly the Numenorean men who kept dogs as pets; women apparently preferred birds. --Had he forgotten that *he* was the one who came up with the ultimate A Girl And Her Dog story with Huan and Luthien??

[@marcusrowan7212]

Can I also say: I LOVE that you use original art for your videos. No criticism on the movies, but I love to see all the creativity and different interpretations of Tolkien's work. Bit of a side note, but for example, I remember reading the HP books as a kid and I know I must have had my own mental image, come up all on my own, of what the characters and the castle looked like. Nowadays tho? I can't remember it anymore. The image has been completely suplanted by the near omnipresent movie. Which I feel is a shame. Tolkien's writing has a similar problem, but it does feel like it's old and big enough a work that it's survived the creative bottleneck a critically successful adaptation usually causes.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad you enjoy it! - I feel the same; I do very much enjoy the aesthetic of the 2000s trilogy and think they got a lot 'right,' but I like exploring all the other possibilities too.

[@ethanallan1254]

Just because of this I went and rewatched the previous video, keep up the good work Mrs Gondor

[@t.gusty1358]

Woot! Best Tolkien channel!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks! Enjoy 🍻

[@smillee1957]

Yay! New video. Woohoo!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Hope you enjoyed it!

[@owenb8636]

Honestly getting your greatest enemies todestroy your next greatest enemies is a 4D chess move on Sauron's part

[@joshuapatrick682]

always a great day to see my favorite Tolkien KZbinr has uploaded, and since I somehow missed part one of this series that's extra exciting!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Yay for accidental bonuses! Enjoy!

[@istari0]

Superb video. This is yet another example of why you are in the top tier of Tolkien experts.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you, friend 💖means a lot!

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks ms lexi , new video is always a pleasure

[@GirlNextGondor]

You're welcome as always Mr. Nolan! Hope you enjoy!

[@NovRen19]

Glorious Madame Gondor!

[@bigsarge2085]

Always loved the downfall of Numenor tale. I appreciate the deep dives, they make me think!

[@GirlNextGondor]

❤

[@EriktheRed2023]

Just got done listening to GNG talking about elven names (and then Electric Avenue), and here we go again! 😃

[@GirlNextGondor]

Onward and Downward (until we reach Atalantie) 🤣

[@sakomanlee]

"Austere rectitude". Well said! that's gonna be my Hallowe'en costume this year, I think.

[@GirlNextGondor]

We need pics 😂

[@mjlamey1066]

One wonders if the Nazgul were at all present at that final confrontation with the Numenoreans. One also wonders if they were, how absolutely over-powering that force was that even the Nazgul wouldn't have been any help against it.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Now you've got me wondering if there's any suggestion the Nazgul grow in "power"/terror as their corruption progresses. Maybe they weren't done 'cooking' yet; half-wraithified Men are probably about as intimidating as Gollum....

[@mjlamey1066]

@@GirlNextGondor probably disappointing for Sauron if that's the case. You've got to figure if some of that fear factor comes from reminding men of their fear of death how overwhelmingly effective that would've actually been against Numenoreans at this point in time.

[@Wanderfill]

Great analysis. And I loved that last image of Sauron. I would gladly follow Him down the road to ruin...

[@3Advent]

I wonder if Tolkien considered Numenor's darkness and downfall as an inevitable part of human nature as its people grew in power, and the Valar certainly didn't help. (Hey, let's raise up an island just within sight of Tol Eressea and give it to a group of long-lived mortals! What could possibly go wrong?) On the other hand, would anything have changed if the throne had passed to Silmarien instead of her younger brother, given that her line remained faithful?

[@Enerdhil]

I think Tolkien substituted Morgoth's Ring for "human nature" as a cause for evil in the world. Númenor was created by the Valar. Therefore, its land should be blessed, but Morgoth's evil seeped into the ground that later became Númenor.

[@blacksage2375]

The Valar failed Numenor for sure but putting the Edain far enough East to not obsess on the West would see them entangle in the ills of Middle-Earth all the sooner probably leading to some lesser downfall. Still probably better then making the Valar go crying for dad and Eru getting out the belt.

[@Duiker36]

I've heard this "put the island within sight of immortality" take a lot, but it doesn't really make sense to me. If you grant a fief to a favored vassal, you don't stick him out in the boonies: you put him as close by as you can. It's one thing if you set him up as a marchwarden who guards your borders, as that's at least kinda a post of honor (which is what the Faithful end up being), but I mean ... where else would you stash them? Even assuming that anyone besides Ulmo was providing the land, too.

[@blacksage2375]

@@Duiker36 You don't tell your faithful vassal he can't come visit you socially and expect them to remain your faithful vassal. Also the Valar do NOT have that sort of authority over Men.

[@Enerdhil]

@@Duiker36 In the first 1000+ years of Numenor's existence, the Elves of Tol Eressëa often visited Andúnië. It was good for their sake that the distance wasn't further.

[@juckoosaurus]

you and tolkien lore(aka tolkien geek) are the best LOTR lore channels on this site. You can really feel how much you two genuinely love this world and works of tolkien

[@jacobsedlack1173]

Lord of the Earth and King of Men have to be my favorite titles Sauron bestows upon himself partly because he does it to antagonize Ar-Pharazon.

[@ernestschroeder9762]

It would have been more interesting if we had a show about the downfall of numenor. Love your passion

[@daniell1483]

Great retelling. And it drives home just how good Tolkien is at good character writing. By modern standards, Numenor as a state made a lot of good decisions, never seeing the trap they blithely walk themselves into. It is easy to see from our position that taking Sauron to Numenor was a colossally bad mistake, but what else was Arpharazon to do? He set out to crush Sauron, but Sauron simply submits; what the hell else should he have done other than accept his surrender? It made sense in the moment to think you had just turned a mortal foe into a submissive vassal.

[@GirlNextGondor]

It's not as though there were any other *really* good options, either. Leaving Sauron there would not have solved anything, and even 'killing' him would only have been temporary.

[@daniell1483]

@@GirlNextGondor I'd love to know if Tolkien thought there was a "right move" that would have changed things or if failure was inevitable.

[@istari0]

@@GirlNextGondor If the Númenoreans hadn't become estranged from the Valar, perhaps they could have shipped him off to Valinor.

[@evildego]

I just discovered your channel yesterday and instantly subbed. I love Tolkien and life, unfortunately, has made sitting down to reread all his works difficult. You and In Deep Geek are my two favorite channels for Tolkien and your voice is very pleasant to listen to. Definitely a great channel to listen to while I am working. Thanks so much for your content!

[@DavetheNord]

Thanks Lexi! Mightily interesting stuff! :)

[@tathemrelag3123]

17:42 Hang on a sec, I'll be back after I finish vomiting my guts out and Tolkien finishes spinning in his grave at relativistic speeds.

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Thanks Lexi

[@EriktheRed2023]

Though outside the scope of this particular series, interrogating (yes, I know) the sources of the Akallabeth is particularly interesting. How would the sources know what goes on in the minds of the King or Sauron as they claim? Sauron's creatures being unwilling to fight the Númenóreans at all is rather striking, compared with the outright suicidal behaviour of his troops during the War of the Ring. It is possible that Ar-Pharazôn's forces were just that awesome to behold. But there is a real possibility that Sauron goaded the King into the confrontation, knowing that he could not defeat Númenor militarily - but their behaviour (and any Númenórean Nazgûl) had showed him that they would be susceptible to a different sort of campaign.

[@coreyander286]

Clearly Isildur recovered the Memoirs of Sauron from Barad-dur before pulling it down.

[@Enerdhil]

That makes sense. Sauron had the One Ring the whole time. I guess he decided to use the power of that ring to make himself more believable to the people to whom he spoke, instead of engaging in a war.

[@Satkoism]

Great video!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks!

[@blacksage2375]

I always wonder how the Hosts of Morgoth would've faired when not even the Ring and Nazgul could motivate the Hosts of Sauron to offer a fight.

[@williamusrex6417]

Your knowledge is amazing. Glad I found your channel.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you!!

[@robingile4301]

Nice, again a pleasant thoughtful dissertation. In my personal realm I am distracted by a vague memory of of a band; Glory and Decay opening for some band in a western mountain town in a lost decade in a previous century?

[@GirlNextGondor]

Google search turns up a band called "OF Glory and Decay"? They'd be new to me, but it does seem to be a satisfying pair of words....

[@WhoIsCalli]

Enjoying this Numenor series. Thanks Lexi

[@beatleblev]

Welp, whether they are made from earth or water, it's all downhill from here...

[@Astrobrewster]

Hello GNG. I miss your content. Lots of love from Astrobrewster

[@timhiker5512]

Am I wrong to thinking of the creation of Numenor as another “mistake by the Valar” along with bringing the Elves to Aman, walling off Aman, …? Also would Numenor have appeared in the vision of Arda as revealed by Eru to the Valar/Maiar?

[@coreyander286]

Of the top of my head, I can't remember if the Vision shown before Ea is created progresses to just before the point of the Awakening of the Elves, or if it extends beyond it but doesn't show the Valar any details of the Children. Even Manwe has to consult with Eru/the Vision to be reminded that Ents are a part of the Music, in the Aule and Yavanna story. Maybe Mandos knew of it, but Mandos knows better than anyone else how to keep a secret, and avoid spoilers.

[@EriktheRed2023]

@@coreyander286 Mandos has shares in corn production and popping facilities.

[@tov5392]

This was great, I always love your videos. Cant wait for part 3!

[@glockoshoppo]

Hey! Huge fan! Your videos are such a high quality. Quick question (which you’ve probably answered before) - will you be re-doing the magic music and light videos ? I watched them once and miss them!🤣

[@GirlNextGondor]

I hope to! They are top of my list for re-upload.

[@makinapacal]

One of the problems I had reading The Silmarillion was the truly amazing level of Elvish narcissism in the various stories. Nothing but nothing ever seems to be as awesome, beautiful, glorious and wonderful as themselves and sop many Elves seemed to love little better than being told , over and over again, about how wonderful they are. So of course when the inhabitants of Numenor begin to stop copying the Elves and reassert to some degree their own traditions that is just shameful, for by definition Elvish ways are superior. What bothered the Elvish or Elvish influenced writers more, the moral decline of the Numenoreans or the Numerenoreans not thinking ever more that Elvish ways were the best ever? To me the moral decline and fall of Numenor was preordained. Not because the Numernoreans stopped thinking Elvish ways were the best ever, but because the Valar had by giving the Numenoreans certain "gifts" had turned them into in effect a "Master Race" over the other Men of Arda. I am just surprised it took so long for the rot to hit the center. And no doubt the moral superiority of the Valar and Eru are proven by the annihilation of Numenor's entire ( With only a few exceptions.), human population along with all the animals and plants.

[@IanHeins]

Nice work thanks

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you!

[@wobber17]

The sea is always right.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Well... for a given value of 'right', surely 😅

[@Enerdhil]

Everything worked out for the salvation of all the Faithful. First of all, Ar-Pharazon forced the Faithful to move to Romenna, very far from their ancestral home of Andúnië. That should have been a horrible punishment for them. Next, Ar-Pharazon did not trust the Faithful, so none of the Faithful Men were forced to join his armada to Aman, though they had ships. Because if these two things, when the skies started to darken, the faithful were able to quickly get onto ships (because Romenna was a port city) and sail away just in time to avoid the deadly tsunami that almost wiped them out if not for the help of Manwë and maybe Ulmo or Ossë. Eru's judgmental of death to the Numenorians is contrasted with his grace to save the Faithful.

[@GirlNextGondor]

A eucatastrophic angle!

[@Enerdhil]

@@GirlNextGondor That's right, sensei.😁👍

[@istari0]

It's also worth noting that most of the Faithful had already moved to Middle-Earth before the Downfall of Númenor.

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 Yes. That is true. Without generations of Faithful populating the coastal villages and cities, there would not have been a Gondor and maybe not an Arnor either.

[@mattcarnevali]

Would love any more info about Ar-Pharazon himself, or a video about Quenya vs Adunaic. I’ve been fascinated with Adunaic for a while now

[@GirlNextGondor]

Oooh, either would be epic (in different ways)....

[@mattcarnevali]

@@GirlNextGondor regardless of the show, I think the Adunaic script from Rings of Power is gorgeous. This video about it is really cool

[@jarrodcarver9001]

[@eliscanfield3913]

Thanks, Lexi! I do wonder why Elrond's children also have the choice to be mortal or elven when Elros' children do not.

[@tathemrelag3123]

Mortality seems to be basically be a "default state." This is made explicit in an older version of the Silmarillion, found in The Lost Road and Other Writings, where part of Manwë's judgement of Eärendil goes: "Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me." But even in other works, this can be inferred - for example, the mortality of orcs and the Princes of Dol Amroth despite them having Elvish ancestry, or Elwing giving birth to Elrond and Elros long before she would have reached physical maturity if she was an Elf. So presumably, once one of Eärendil's descendants chose to be mortal, that was it, and all of that descendant's children would also be mortal. But any of his descendants who chose to be Elves would always have the choice to revert to their "natural state" of being mortal.

[@Enerdhil]

Was Dior given a choice? Was Elwing? No. They were automatically made Elves. Did Elrohir and Elladan choose to be mortal and that is why they did not leave Middle Earth with their father? Maybe. We don't know. I don't think it is clear why someone or who gets the right to choose to be mortal or immortal. Tuor was permitted to become an Elf and could live in Valinor, which should be impossible for a Man.

[@istari0]

As I understand it, once the choice was made to be mortal, that choice was also binding on one's descendants but that was not true if the choice was to be immortal. One interesting thing I have noticed is that among the half-Elven, they seemed to be the same as Elves unless and until they made the choice to be mortal.

[@istari0]

@@Enerdhil Elwing did make the choice and she chose to be an Elf. Dior is an interesting case as he lived and died before the whole matter of giving the half-Elven a choice was decided by the Valar. Also, both his parents were mortals at the time they had him, which ordinarily would mean that Dior would also be mortal as not even the Valar could take away The Gift of Men. For the same reason, I think Tuor's case was an example of intervention by Ilúvatar. Ilúvatar could have also intervened with Dior but there I haven't come up with a reason Dior would have been another exception.

[@Enerdhil]

@@istari0 Elwing made her choice in Valinor. She was 100% Elf in Middle Earth.

[@TheGreatUnwashedThing]

Here’s an interesting question- why didn’t the Numenoreans not try and storm Mordor at some point prior to Ar-Pharazon?

[@EriktheRed2023]

They did not have the military or the logistics to achieve it. Their fleets dominated the coastlines, but Mordor is far inland, and Barad-dûr is a tough nut to crack. It took The Last Alliance seven years to reduce it. That's seven years of keeping an army supplied far, far from your own territory. Sauron's puppet states would have been busy attacking lines of communication through that time, and even a few successful raids would have led to famine in the besieging army. When the Númenóreans finally did it, it took a decade of armament by the very singleminded tyrant Ar-Pharazôn to get there, and that was only after he had (temporarily) settled the internal conflicts of his realm first.

[@hglundahl]

9:48 I'm noting that Tolkien is making a not so oblique reference to false gods here. // Enki's name means “Lord of the Earth” and his symbols are the fish and the goat, both representations of fertility. //

[@GirlNextGondor]

When your driving motivation is to claim the title that *Sauron* is using, you know you've messed up somewhere.

[@hglundahl]

@@GirlNextGondor Well, I am not worshipping Enki, as simple as that. Nor do I have any desire to be regarded as Enki.

[@tezcatlipocagrande2231]

But when did they realize that the sea is always right? 😂

[@slimhazard]

Lexi, have you considered a video exploring parallels between Numenor and the myth of Atlantis? A number of interesting questions come to mind. For one thing, it might seem obvious that Tolkien was influenced by the story - a sunken island in the middle of the ocean, after all - but maybe it‘s not so simple. If anything, Tolkien seems (to me anyway) to have been inspired by Germanic and Nordic myths, and his Catholicism, less so by the ancient Greeks. But if Atlantis was an inspiration: my superficial knowledge of the subject (I read the Wikipedia article) makes me think that Plato‘s goals in his story were political, whereas Tolkien‘s themes were more religious. Wages of the sins of pride and blasphemy. That may have been the way Tolkien came to know the story of Atlantis, since it was passed on and re-interpreted in many ways over the millennia. I notice myself again assuming that the Greeks weren‘t so much in Tolkien‘s scholarly wheelhouse, but in fact I have no idea and may be entirely wrong. Many subjects for comparative lit come to mind, and I think you could handle them better than most.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I found a couple neat papers I'm planning to read that seemed to argue Tolkien's sources were more diverse than commonly mentioned!

[@hglundahl]

15:26 Confer Penal laws and the situation of Catholics.

[@matthewdunham1689]

❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤❤

[@rhel373]

17:42 Akallabussy 🤣

[@Mosux2007]

The glory and decay of Numenor reminds me of the history of Disney.