Are There Sentient Objects in Middle-earth?

[@jotnarymir1393]

And can't forget the og talking purse. Bro was a menace.

[@beatleblev]

Great video (as usual)! An unnamed Galadhrim shed some relevant light on "magic" item creation when gifting Pippin's Elven Cloak to him. When asked if it was a magic cloak, he responds that the elves, "...put the thought of all that we love into all that we make." This applies to all of the enchanted items in the Legendarium from the Two Trees, to the Silmarils, the Rings of Power, the daggers of Westernesse, all the way to the gifted travel cloaks of the Fellowship from Lorien. This is even true of Morgoth's Ring as Morgoth loved Melkor and so, thinking what Arda needed was more Melkor, poured more of himself into to it.

[@Makkaru112]

“May these cloaks shield you from unfriendly Eyes” - Celeborn the Wise. ❤

[@disgruntledtoons]

The start of the quote tells it all: "I do not know what you mean by that word."

[@thecancelledclub665]

Seriously this is one of the BEST LOTR channels out there, thanks so much for being so diligent. Great work.

[@jasperallaert7874]

Love your essays! Wish there were more channels like yours that explore the themes of the story in such a thoughtful and entertaining way.

[@fredkrissman6527]

Hear, hear!

[@Enerdhil]

Check out The Red Book. Lexi and Steven are my two favorite Tolkien KZbinrs because they both do deep dives into the lore.

[@KipIngram]

I think the animosity of the mountain itself to the Fellowship could be a result of Melkor having vested so much of his own energy into Middle Earth itself. (Edit - ah, you said as much yourself).

[@TheHoneyBadger-yh5vj]

May God bless you and your work young lady 💜💜💜 respect from Croatia-Europe 💜💜💜

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you! Cheers!

[@therealpatagonianpancakes]

About Gurthang's talkative personality, if I remember correctly, Morgoth somehow waa keeping an eye on all the events in Túrin's life, which he would then rely on Húrin. Then it would have been Húrin who passed on the details of the story that no one else could have known.

[@tiltskillet7085]

Great point. And it is at least implied that Hurin may have witnessed events personally, through the power of Morgoth. I think there may be other instances where Hurin may be a source for information in the tale. OTOH it doesn't seem like Hurin would be much for sitting down and telling the details of the tale to anybody. Perhaps I'm wrong about that though.

[@jacobvardy]

Don't the spirits of Men pass through the Gates of Mandos to pass beyond Arda? Since elves have a revolving door in the Halls of Mandos, maybe someone had a chat with Túrin as he passed through. That's been my headcannon for a while. Or Bilbo made it up.

[@julianhaddrill4286]

but remember morgoth distorted the 'view' hurin saw to suit his own ends. so any morgoth derived 'witness' is highly suspect.

[@tiltskillet7085]

@@julianhaddrill4286 I suppose one counterpoint to the Hurin via Morgoth theory is that Gurthang's lines aren't quite cruel enough. OTOH, perhaps Morgoth's malice could only slant Hurin's perceptions rather than produce anything in these visions that didn't actually occur. (I believer there's an interesting parallel to the limits of Sauron's influence over Denethor through the Palantir here.) FWIW, I'm more inclined to credit poetic license than this information being transmitted through Hurin. But I do find the latter idea interesting and not easy to simply dismiss.

[@mypeeps1965]

@@julianhaddrill4286 If you remember Melian removed Hurin's Veil when he visited. Hurin was giving the King and Queen a tongue lashing for not protecting his family. Melian removed His veil, he then apologized and left them the Nauglamír.

[@EriktheRed2023]

All hail Girl Next Gondor for ending the dearth and blessing us with another glimpse into Tolkien's Legendarium! Praise her with great praise!

[@paulbrickler]

I must say, I really enjoy the artwork that you've selected for this video. I see a lot of repeated and still very good art on the other Tolkien channels I watch, and a lot of this was new to me and very well done.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you very much! I like trying to incorporate new artists and fresh takes into these videos; glad you're enjoying that part of it 😊

[@TeutonicKnight92]

It makes me wonder if Caradhras was sensing Gandalf and/or the Ring. As it was raised to prevent the passage of a Ainur or a object containing a part of the power of one

[@KipIngram]

I've always wondered how Sauron got the Ring back after the fall of Numenor. His physical body was destroyed there, and it was his *spirit* that escaped back to Middle Earth. It's not explained how he was able to tote the Ring with him. He just... had it still, when he re-embodied himself.

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Thanks Lexi!

[@monkfishy6348]

I was having a discussion on this very topic just yesterday. Nice to see another perspective.

[@istari0]

I think Caradhras is a case of having received a more potent dose of Morgoth's corruption, whether by accident or intent. Orodruin was probably the same.

[@Enerdhil]

Melkor created Hithaeglir as a deterrent for Oromë, who was hunting his creatures in Middle Earth. He definitely put extra malice into that mountain range for sure.

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

Yet, wasn't it chiefly Saruman's magic that caused the trouble encountered by the fellowship on Mount Caradhras?

[@annafdd]

@@markus-hermannkoch1740 no, that is something Jackson put in because it made sense to stress the role of Saruman. In the books, Boromir thinks it may be but nobody else does.

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

@@annafdd yes, the movies are extremely explicit. Yet, Saruman does show a virtue of hindering the group. See his will, tiring the three friends, as they chase the Orcs to Fangorn later on. And there he wasn't even aware of their presence! Plus, the Fellowship has been sniffed out by his crows on their way south. So Saruman knew in that instance. I also believe, that the wargs, they met later on, have been sent by him (even though Gandalf addresses them as "Sauron's hounds").

[@Enerdhil]

@@markus-hermannkoch1740 According to Peter Jackson, Saruman had power over the weather.

[@oguzhanenescetin5702]

Happy new year! A great video as always. I always thought that Fellowships journey through Caradhras to Lothlorien is the personification of that “wide world”. Gandalf and Balrog might be mighty beings but there are powers in this world far older and natural than them. A malicious storm conjured by a literal mountain? A case of missing wolves? A cloud passing over them that even Gandalf can’t understand why? A rumor of ancient beings older than Sauron dwelling and eating the world? All of this points to me that Caradhras was geologically a place of ancient and alien force . This idea is further reinforced with them passing over a dead dwarven realm for many chapters understanding and finding out the mysteries and even legends no one knew before. Tolkien simply points out that regardless of how many ages,adventures,travelers and dark lords pass, there will always be things to discover in a world no one can grasp in its full extent. Or at least this is how I look at it

[@annafdd]

I am still not convinced by that “some of these entities were on this Earth before Sauron”. So the Ainur sing the universe into existence, Eru gives it form, the Ainur (including Mairon) go oooooh that’s so cool can we touch it? and Eru nods fondly, at which point they all woosh down like tourists on the opening of the Louvre. So whatever eldritch things are doing unspeakable things in the deep, they must have done it in that interval of time.

[@EriktheRed2023]

But then we also know that not all the Ainur arrived at the same time. It would be funny if this was a subtle jab at Mairon for being such a slowpoke.

[@istari0]

@@EriktheRed2023 Precisely. Not all the Ainur arrived together and we don't know when the first of them arrived. The Silmarillion specifically mention Tulkas arriving quite some time later when he heard of the wars in Arda. Stands to reason he wasn't the only one who came later.

[@GirlNextGondor]

A Necromancer is never late, nor is he early. He arrives precisely at the point that minimizes wasteful friction. 🔥 👁 🔥

[@Enerdhil]

Well, we know that Mairon was in Almaren before he turned traitor and joined Melkor, so we have to assume he came down with Aulë to help make the Island paradise. I have never seen proof that Sauron came to Arda later.

[@istari0]

​@@Enerdhil Remember though that Melkor's first war with the Valar was marked by his continuing destruction of whatever the Valar created. So, Almaren probably did not exist until Tulkas came to Arda and Melkor withdrew for a time. The Annals of Aman in Morgoth's Ring strongly implies this. It also talks about Mairon having gone over to Melkor by this time and was actually acting as a spy for Melkor before openly siding with the Dark Lord. It was Mairon who told Melkor that the Valar had relaxed their guard and allowed Melkor to return to Arda and launch the attack on the Two Lamps. This doesn't prove anything one way or the other about exactly when Mairon arrived in Arda but it certainly opens up the possibility that he came later. I doubt Gandalf would have said what he did about the Nameless Things being older than Sauron without good reason.

[@PatrickLongblkwhtrbbt]

Anglachel, perhaps? The ring itself is described as making decisions sometimes.

[@zeusnitch]

I love this line of thought/questioning! Guess who's folding laundry, making soap, and passively listening to you :-)

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Been ages, but this was definitely worth the wait!

[@LetsTalkHerps]

Don’t forget the stones who remembered the songs of the elves of Lindon.

[@Enerdhil]

That looks like a TRoP concept.🤨

[@LetsTalkHerps]

@@Enerdhil I like that show, but this is straight from Legolas in both the extended version of the film and in the books as they pass through Hollin.

[@Enerdhil]

@@LetsTalkHerps In that case, it is metaphorical.

[@annafdd]

It was the Elves of Eregion.

[@annafdd]

@@Enerdhil ‘But the Elves of this land were of a race strange to us of the silvan folk, and the trees and the grass do not now remember them. Only I hear the stones lament them: *deep they delved us, fair they wrought us, high they builded us; but they are gone.* They are gone. They sought the Havens long ago.’ Or they were killed by Sauron. Does not sound metaphorical.

[@David.Bowman.]

I can’t decide whether the conditions on Caradhras were the result of Sauron (“his arm has grown long indeed”) or if it is something to do with Manwë himself forcing Gandalf down to deal with the Balrog.

[@matthewdunham1689]

That’s extremely insightful! And exactly how Tolkien’s genius worked. Manwe or even Eru subtle meddling to deal with the forces of evil plaguing Middle Earth.

[@sakomanlee]

Intriguing idea. It made me think about the creation of the Dwarves by Aulë, AKA the worst mentor of all time. When he created them, they didn't possess true life, as in freewill, as such creation was the sole province of Ilúvatar. They were merely an extension of Aulë'. I think they suggest that only something created by Ilúvatar can actually be sentient. Trees and birds? Created by Ilúvatar and can potentially be sentient. Anything created by someone else can only be imbued with certain characteristics of the one who created it. Thus, such items only have a semblance of sentience.

[@andersonic]

Fantastic analysis of a wonderful topic. The conundrum with Tolkien is he gave everything fair consideration, so you can't hand wave the plausibility of a sword's suicide monologue even in the context of a First Age where a flying sailboat slays a mountain sized dragon

[@amh9494]

The silmirilians seem to get their will from the trees whose light they captured, I can't see Feanor being able to judge people correctly like they do.

[@ryanratchford2530]

If this video doesn’t mention Bill’s talking Wallet that “apparently” ratted Bilbo out in the Hobbit then I’m going to riot 😂 Edit: I rioted 😂 P.s. Just like Fellowship’s talking Fox and Beorn’s magical cats & dogs and Bard’s talking thrush, all these whimsical animal events are almost certainly poetic flourishes Bilbo & Frodo/Sam put in the Red Book. I love the idea that Bilbo just was a bad burglar & the Trolls just noticed him, so Bilbo made up the talking wallet to make himself look better 😂

[@Enerdhil]

That is what I posted three times below. Bilbo wasn't a burglar at the time. He was a bungler.😂

[@GirlNextGondor]

I'm going to have to do an entire video on that wallet, aren't I... 😂😆

[@Enerdhil]

@@GirlNextGondor No Lexy!😲 Don't waste a whole video on Bilbo's lie!!!

[@goatcheezius2399]

There's fairy-tales where some inatimate and mundune object like a sewing needle or a bean becomes sentient and leaves home on an adventure. Maybe that was a troublemaking wallet that fell in with three trolls and its story of greed and service to evil ends with it being stuck in a troll's trouser back pocket for all eternity.

[@Enerdhil]

@@goatcheezius2399 And what do Trolls buy with the money in their purses?🤔

[@estherandreasen366]

I love Gorthang. It's great. It has a preference and some form of will but he must do what the welder chooses. It couldn't help the slip that woke up Túrin or Beleg's death, but deeply regrets it to the extent that it doesn't want to be used. I've wondered if he were left for a while after Beleg's death if it would have gotten over it's depression and returned to it's old glory without being reforged.

[@Enerdhil]

I have thought that Turin had the sword reforged because he wanted to get rid of the curse that was on the blade after he killed Beleg. Of course, Gurthang was still the same sword as Anglachel and Turin could never escape the curse.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Ooh, I like that formulation of it - has its preferences, and even some capacity to pursue them, but can't transcend its own sword-y nature. Poor Gurthang 😅 as much a victim of the CoH-curse as anyone else....

[@Enerdhil]

Gurthang was broken when Turin's dead body collapsed on it sideways. The Elves would have to reforge it.

[@valviform]

"Hey squad, welcome back" Me sitting here at 4AM because it's time to watch my subscribed channels:

[@jennipherem3695]

Can we talk about the troll's purse that Bilbo purports to have said "'Ere, oo are you?" Most likely an exaggeration of the Narrator. But would some kind of alarm represent the same kind of magic as in the Watchers of Cirith Ungol, or the watch-stones of the Drúedain?

[@sinthoras1917]

I always had a headcanon of Caradhras as some eccentric maiar. I just love conscious nature ngl

[@shanenolan5625]

Thanks, lexi. hope you and the little gondorians had a merry Christmas, ( and the rest of the family)

[@GirlNextGondor]

I think the junior guards were hoping for an Orc attack to fend off, but otherwise we all passed the holiday quite pleasantly! Happy New Year to you, Mr. Nolan!

[@shanenolan5625]

@@GirlNextGondor guards of the citadel indeed ( gandalf voice)

[@KipIngram]

Hey, I just had a thought. The Silmarilli contained the light of the Trees. But note that - it CONTAINED the light. As in the light was in some sense "trapped inside," in a way that had not been the case with the Trees themselves. If you want to anthropomorphize the Silmarilli, one way to do it would be to anthropomorphize the LIGHT, and maybe that light resented confinement to artificial "containers" alien to its natural home. That could explain the evolution of something as holy as the light of the Trees into a potentially negative force. Maybe the effect was to "reciprocate" - that light had been captured in the gems, so it sought to "capture the soul/psyche" of those that sought to possess the gems. And insofar as the gems burning some people, well, it was still "holy light," and as such was unwilling to bear the touch of corrupted souls. I'd go so far as to say the gems would have burned even Feanor had he ever brought one back into his grasp after his Oath. So, in this view Feanor's very creation of the gems was... an error. The end result wasn't *purely* a product of his skills and craftsmanship - he "hijacked" a force that would better have been left in it's natural state.

[@MintyScales]

i know my finger is alive because of how fast it SMASHED THAT LIKE BUTTON! have a great new year, GirlNextGondor! thanks for the awesome content this year 🧙‍♂️

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks! You too!

[@jaytucker7873]

Sentient objects? Nah, I'm gonna poke that like button and 'Ere, 'oo are you?"

[@GirlNextGondor]

Like buttons, like troll purses, are full of mischief that way 😆

[@Draconisrex1]

Túrin succeeded in slaying Glaurung with Gurthang at Cabed-en-Aras but fell into a swoon when he wrested it from Glaurung's belly.[9] He was then told by Brandir that his wife was in fact his sister Nienor as recounted by Glaurung, and in a rage, Túrin slew Brandir. Discovering from Mablung that this was in fact true, Túrin returned to Cabed-en-Aras to commit suicide, addressing Gurthang with courteous words: 'Hail Gurthang! No lord or loyalty dost thou know, save the hand that wieldeth thee. From no blood wilt thou shrink. Wilt thou therefore take Túrin Turambar, wilt thou slay me swiftly?' And from the blade rang a cold voice in answer: 'Yea, I will drink thy blood gladly, that so I may forget the blood of Beleg my master, and the blood of Brandir slain unjustly. I will slay thee swiftly.

[@kintire]

In earlier works Tolkien had a whole variety of supernatural beings such as Tinfang Warble. That's an early draft of course, but not formally abandoned, and similiar beings survive in the River Woman and her Daughter. I always thought of Caradhras as a being like them, but of mountains rather than rivers. That doesn't work for created objects though, such as troll wallets which I would be fascinated to hear your thoughts on...

[@tornadomuchacho]

The joke about the like button was funny and I lol’d

[@margaretalbrecht4650]

The Silmarili were hallowed by Varda so that no mortal or evil hands could touch them without being burned and withered. That's why Beren could touch them while Morgoth, his pet wolf monster, and the sons of Feanor were all burned.

[@Enerdhil]

None of the good wearers of Silmarili were scorched either. Thingol, Luthien, Dior, Elwing and Eärendil suffered no harm from wearing them.

[@margaretalbrecht4650]

@@Enerdhil Exactly. It wasn't that gems were aware and permitted this. It's when Varda hallows something and says that anything evil that touches it gets burned, then anything evil that touches it gets burned. Could you imagine what would have happened if Ungoliant had eaten all three of them? The wolf was bad enough with one. But Ungoliant was so swollen with power at that moment, if you had added the Silmarili in her stomach at that moment, even the Valar would have been at risk.

[@c.antoniojohnson7114]

​@@margaretalbrecht4650Eru Illuvitar would be the only one who could kill her.

[@louisebrouillette5580]

Great video, Lexi! You always give us much to think about, even regarding topics that we've considered before. Would you consider the troll's purse in The Hobbit as a sentient object? It did speak to Bilbo and aroused the trolls' attention.

[@Enerdhil]

Well, if you believe Bilbo's account of how he got caught by the Trolls, then the purse has to be sentient, but I think Lexi skipped it because she thinks Bilbo lied. I am sure he lied and only to cover his own backside. I am also sure that Bilbo was caught in a much more embarrassing way.😅

[@timdulle5189]

Well written and thought out. Bravo!

[@mjlamey1066]

Babe, wake up! The KZbin is talking!

[@angledmusasabi]

Your analyses are, in fact, the very best. =)

[@methodsocratic]

I’m a bit surprised you didn’t touch on what seems me an essential factor in whether or not any of these “objects” are sentient: Eru is the only being in Tolkien’s universe who can create; all other beings are limited to shaping Eru’s creations. It seems to me one of three things must be true: either the principle of Eru’s uniqueness is yet another example of Tolkien offering contradicting elements within his work (eg., the genesis of orcs), and this is just another example of an ambiguity of the Legendarium (this seems very unlikely to me as Eru’s nature as sole creator seems to be very consistent when Tolkien explicitly addresses it); or those objects are indeed sentient, they indeed do have agency, which suggests we must also extrapolate the substances from which they were formed were also aware (I struggle to assign much credit to the ore that became Gurthang or The One Ring was sentient before being mined & refined & forged); or, most likely to me, those objects that appear anthropomorphic exhibit those qualities because they contain to some degree the will of their shapers (note: not *creators*). Sauron’s will animates The One Ring, Fëanor’s will animates the Silmarils, etc. Those objects aren’t independent entities with agency, they’re extensions of their shapers.

[@methodsocratic]

Also, let me add, I think I understand Tolkien’s anthropomorphisms as valuable & effective literary devices, I’m not slavishly stuck on “they must be one way or another,” I don’t worship at the foot of canon. When canonical inconsistencies don’t threaten core tenants of a universe, I don’t really care: ultimately I just wanna enjoy a good story, which, c’mon, is Tolkien’s talent ever gonna truly be disputed? 😂 Just an addendum for context’s sake.

[@arlibrarian]

These videos are part of what’s telling me to get to reading some of the extended lore books I never got around to reading.

[@acuerdox]

these videos are the best thing there is. on the topic of agency or personhood, notice that today there're claims that a "corporation" is a person, that the people inside of it work very much like neurons or some other, and at the same time it's also claimed that we ourselves are not really conscious, that consciousness is an illusion, that we're nothing but a machine, not very different from a rock or a computer. it's no coincidence that these two things come at the same time, and the reason very much has to do with the very topic of the video.

[@quentandil]

I want a second part that deals with the theological and moral implications of the talking purse in The Hobbit.

[@Enerdhil]

Oh, you mean the lie Bilbo told everyone and wrote in the Red Book in order to explain how and why he got caught because the real reason was too embarrassing to admit.

[@anchuisneoir3973]

No mention of the talking purse of the trolls?

[@Enerdhil]

Me thinks Bilbo made that story up to explain how he got caught because actually he was doing something stupid when he got caught.

[@andrayellowpenguin]

This is one of my favorite things about Tolkien's work, the fact that you have so much nuance and so many things that are independent from the "character story". It's not just a so called hero's journey, or even multiple heroes' journeys. There are so many tangents, so many things/people that do their own stuff and evolve outside of what you might expect and don't really care about the main story, even if they're connected to it/appear in it/are essential to it, and that's a lot more realistic. Plus so much more interesting! You keep wondering and speculating on what their story is, what their goals are, how they'd act in this or that situation, are the silmarils sentient, do these objects have a will as we understand it, is there a purpose behind the ring doing this or that etc etc etc. Mystery is part of life, you never know the whole story, and i love how interwoven that is in Tolkien's work, even though the books are not actually written from a first person perspective. The author knows a lot more than the characters, but even the author is not omniscient, and can sometimes only speculate on some things. I love that!

[@allisonkreutzberg6079]

This was a great topic I hadn’t thought much about before! Thank you for bringing it to light in your wonderful and thoughtful way!! ❤

[@jpbjoel]

A new video! My laptop’s keyboard urges me to comment and say thank you for another video full of interesting conjectures! While none of our objects talk to us, except for an Amazon echo, plenty are named, as my wife is fond of assigning them to most every major thing we own. Fortunately, not foods. Eat a Tom Bomba dill pickle? I would not relish it.

[@Enerdhil]

Pun intended! 😂

[@GirlNextGondor]

🥒 I was not expecting that one, well played 😂 Glad you enjoyed it!

[@jacobvardy]

I'm just commenting because the voice from my far-watchto crystal asked me to "like, comment, and subscribe" to appease the great Algorithm.

[@ShaggyPWN]

A new GirlNextGondor video!? Nice

[@Mislu]

I think will in Tolkien's world reverberates and echoes beyond its initial impetus. Objects, specially powerful ones, despite not being themselves willful, still carry the will of their makers. Humans, being less powerful than elves and the Ainur, have this diminished, but still can exert some of this. Maybe this even is part of why oaths and curses seem to have an effect. Its not that the ring has a will, its that its maker had a will and he imbued it in its making. His unwillingness to forego the ring is merely a manifestation of his avarice for power, so it is merely his will reflected through the ring that makes it seem like the Ring has power over him. Regarding the sword Anglachel, seems that it carried his maker's ill will towards anyone he deemed invaders and enemies. Humans and the Noldor to him were invaders and trespassers, maybe he even created the sword as a weapon against them. Could be that the sword when killing Beleg, it was doing the opposite of its purpose imbued by Eol, so it seemed to everyone that it lost its gleam... Sting and Glamdring would also have the will of their makers, in that case, the purpose to defeat orcs...

[@DavidTheConkerer]

Happy New Year good lady!

[@DavidRoberts]

I do wonder if Pratchett's magical sword Kring (also a talking black sword forged from meteoritic iron) was consciously modelled on Gurthang

[@JonS]

Or on Moorcock’s Stormbringer (which might itself have owed something to Gurthang, even though Moorcock is not a fan of Tolkien’s work).

[@annafdd]

Absolutely. Pratchett was a great Tolkien fan.

[@DavidRoberts]

@@annafdd Yeah, the question is if it was a general thing or an outright parody (like Cohen the Barbarian) of Gurthang, rather than pulling on the general trope. Not that we can find out now, of course ... 😕

[@michaelogrady232]

Good one! Happy 5th Day of Christmas, and all the best in the New Year!

[@Enerdhil]

Five golden rings........

[@michaelogrady232]

@@Enerdhil which sauron never touched

[@Enerdhil]

@@michaelogrady232 You got it right! They are the Dwarf Rings that he never recovered.😂

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks! You too 🎆

[@graybeard101]

A excellent as always

[@jankrizkovsky9446]

Great as always!

[@titchbits1]

wahoooooo! You for LOTR, Michael talks about stuff and David lightbringer for GoT. I am SET.

[@aserta]

Being "gutted" alone would probably suffice 15:50 for any sapient form of life, let alone one that's sedentary. Not like you can imagine a mountain pick up its "skirt" and move way from the aggravating pests. Nor is there any services to call upon to get rid of them either. That the ultimate evil in the land isn't the mountain, awoken above its means by aggravation, is surprising.

[@blitz8425]

I'm a simple man, I see a girlnextgondor video and I click

[@mileswright7294]

Amen

[@obxwave]

Yep…the most underrated Tolkien-focused KZbinr…

[@matthewdunham1689]

Indeed

[@GarethCoburn]

Language is an art, my twin builds Gundam Models. It's referred to as Gunpla, building painting etc the Gundams. She started an insta and called it GunplaGirlfriend. I find it just so, ApplePie. Usernames as simple and as perfect as a Bic lighter.

[@dimentoplexitronum4923]

Real

[@bigsarge2085]

Happy New Year and thank you for a year of insightful Tolkien content!

[@TheLastAxeman]

For the Valar put their voice and thoughts itself in the world created, and life itself flows through process of creation, from Ainur to Eldar. I see it like process of unraveling, "decrypting" inner life of all things that are in Ea. I love how Tolkien's world works like some self-serving alchemy. Also I see in this video some pararels with the video you made about magic in Middle-Earth. I love your approach to the subject, the closest to the one I have and far deeper I could ever gaze myself.

[@Jzscrstsprstr]

The subject-object demarcation seems to grow thin even in Tolkien, eh. Excellent stuff as always, thank you!

[@TheBrothersArda]

Another perfect video-essay Lexi, really loved this one. I must confess that I've tried to incorporate the notion of the mountains and forests being alive along with the seas, as Howard & Tolkien write them into my own writings. What Tolkien did was create an other-worldly sense of things that honestly adds so much more character and flavour to his world that you do not see in to-day's fantastical stories.

[@Oakleaf012]

I clicked this video so fast when I saw it oh my gosh. This is such a fascinating topic to me and I’m so glad to see you talking about it and digging into it. I love the concept of how the creator’s will becomes part of creation, if the maker is powerful enough and their will strong enough. But how what they create isn’t always what they expect. There is something True in the way the creation reflects the creator that illuminates both them and the world they inhabit. I love your essays btw, I stumbled across you recently and all your analysis is superb. ❤❤❤

[@baronsamedi7304]

Havent seen anything from you in awhile, nice.

[@annafdd]

Pneumonia!

[@jameshumphrey2345]

Tolkien's mention of machines makes me ponder, in this millennium of self-driving vehicles, Roombas, trackable packages and beguiling mobile computing devices that perpetually do the bidding of distant programmers ... does the Middle-Earth realm now represent the converse of the Arthur C. Clarke principle? To wit: Tolkienian magic, when sufficiently advanced, is indistinguishable from technology. 😮

[@Enerdhil]

That's blasphemy!!! 😲..........🤪

[@matthewdunham1689]

Are all the magical items in Middle Earth a sort of A.I.?

[@jameshumphrey2345]

@@matthewdunham1689 I’d speculate that Tolkien might consider them similar in effect - acting independently through motivation that was “programmed” into them but without awareness or free will. But obviously the “magic” in his literary world isn’t a human invention, but rather the channeling of natural power.

[@Enerdhil]

Lexi, is it possible that the evil Melkor seeded Arda with during the Creation is sentient? Just a thought....

[@ecthelionofthefountain8267]

Excellent analysis GNG! Happy New Year!

[@davidandrews2972]

Very good stuff, particularly the Caradhras/Misty Mountains/Morgoth connection, which I hadn't made before. The way it comes across to me is that things made by application of power or elven art have intention as a part of themselves and will tend to work in favour of those intentions without necessarily being fully aware or knowing what they're doing; although on rare occasions they may "wake up," at least for a while.

[@wagon9082]

Good video

[@Enerdhil]

How about the Watchers at the Gates of Cirith Ungol? Are they sentient? How about the Pukel Statue? Was it briefly sentient?

[@GirlNextGondor]

I considered those, but to me they seem more like straightforward enchanted items - some kind of 'spell' or technique was applied that may have given some ability for animation or awareness, but I don't think their makers ever gave up control, or found their works acting in unexpected ways. By contrast the Silmarils or Huorns seem to have their own agendas independent of what their makers intended for them. Definitely cases to be explored down the line though!

[@shanenolan5625]

One algorithm to rule them all

[@Enerdhil]

That is the problem.😅

[@danieldeclue1466]

This is just my personal headcanon, but I always got the distinct impression that Gollums addictive Behavior with the ring, such as caressing it, staring at it, whispering to it, were all definitely a mirror into sauron's own personality. It's just a scary thought, to imagine that one might walk in on Sauron caressing and whispering to his precious😂😮

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

Good stuff as ever GNG, there are a couple of other minor examples, two from LoTR and one from the Hobbit. The troll purse being the later and the former the living?Pukkel men statues, and the watchers at the gates, the last two one can see some of the spirit or innate power of their creators being invested in these objects. I am unsure of the explanation for the troll purse. Thank you for your well constructed and thought provoking work. I wish you and yours all the best for the coming year.😊

[@Enerdhil]

The best explanation for the talking purse is that Bilbo lied.

[@mag_lore]

Excellent video as always!! I freaking love this topic, and I'm glad you talked about it!! I always see the more sentient objects as being a reflection of their creator's will/spirit/fëa. We know Sauron put much of his own spirit into the Ring, thus giving it more power and binding him to it, and I like to think that's something a talented elven smith could do as well. Fëanor with the Silmarils, Eöl with Gurthang, and perhaps even Celebrimbor with the elven rings. I see them as sacrificing some of their spirit into these objects to give them more power, and thus giving them a bit of... personality as a reflection. And I am forever curious is Anguirel, given that its Gurthang's mate, was also sentient in some form or had a will or could talk, but thats partially because Maeglin is my favorite character and I want to know if he had a malicious talking sword😅😭

[@27jayway-yc9nl]

Thank you for making these well researched and thought provoking videos.

[@danieldeclue1466]

I always kind of thought that the silmarils we're not only so amazing because they looked beautiful and people wanted them. But the light that shown from them was the same light that the Valar exude. This is why Mortals cannot handle them without being scorched. And just think, if one were to hold and maintain just one of them, there is even a possibility that it might bless the land it resides on. I think that's why people wanted them so badly, have your own valinor and Middle Earth to a point. Even if it wouldn't work like that, people would think it might

[@AltSchwiftSiberia]

You never mentioned this (and perhaps the omission is intentional), but it seems to me that an apt comparison for objects imbued with the "will" of characters is to the horcruxes in the HP world. The biggest difference seems to be the "even" splitting of the soul in HP (each horcrux has every facet of Voldemort's personality) compared to the intentional/partial personality put into objects like the One Ring. As you pointed out, the ring doesn't have sentience/true will, but it does exude those virtues that Sauron poured into it (lust for power, will to dominate, and the associated paranoia of losing said power and control). Another parallel is that Sauron could not be destroyed until his Ring was, too. Horcruxes aren't perfect comparisons, but in that case, it seems a fairly accurate one. Thanks for the content! Happy New Year.

[@TheChef420]

The Silmarills were made Holly so evil hands could not touch them that's why they burned Melkor

[@AMRosa10]

@GirlNextGondor I think that this video might be onto something that is puzzling me and the answer may lie in some of what you describe herein. I would love to see you do a deep dive video into the Elven Rings and the wider legendarium, possibly even from the Histories of Middle Earth or the Tolkien Letters, as I still don't quite see the link between the Elven Rings and The One Ring and Sauron. I realize that the knowledge to craft rings of power comes to the elves from Sauron, but why, if he has no influence over the forging of these three rings would they still be linked to him, his magic, his power? And why, when The One Ring is destroyed do the Elven Rings lose their power? If they do lose their power, then it would imply that the power that they tap into derives and is sourced from Sauron himself, even though Celebrimbor undertook the forging of them on his own. Does that then imply that there is a force of good in Sauron that is seperate from the malice? If they do derive their power from him, then why wouldn't he still be aware of them and have some control over them, even when not in possession of The One? At the very least, why wouldn't Sauron be able to block access to the part of his being that is the source of the power of The Elven Rings rendering them powerless? If all the rings somehow tap into the power of Morgoth's ring, again, how do the three Elven Rings tap into virtuous powers? And if the virtuous power is not a part of either Sauron or Morgoth, then why would access to that power be lost when The One Ring is destroyed and Sauron is eternally diminished? If Tolkien doesn't have a strong reason for the link, other than as a plot device to diminish the elves and usher in the age of men, then the logic of the Elven Rings doesn't hold up. The Elven Rings should have remained powerful, even after the destruction of The One Ring. Is it possible that their magic was based on a mission, a mission to withstand the malice of The Dark Lord, and that, once fulfilled, their reason for being is complete and they no longer have the "will" to function? But if this is the case, then how does Celebrimbor know that is what he is doing when creating them, as Sauron hasn't yet revealed himself as the Dark Lord, so how could the Elven Rings "know" their missions? It would really be interesting if you could shed some more light on this subject.

[@jacobvardy]

As to whether there was good in Sauron, Tolkien says there was, at least a little. However, nor were the Elven rings used entirely selflessly. Those rings were used to hold back time, to keep the Elves as the top dogs. Elrond is renowned among the wise for his wisdom, Galadriel strikes Men dumb with her majesty, yet in Valinor they would be minor figures at best. I think Tolkien literally says that the Elves wanted to have their cake and eat it too. They wanted to be immortal yet live in the mortal world.

[@Enerdhil]

These are some great questions, the answers of which I am sure will be speculative.🤔

[@Enerdhil]

If I had to guess, I would say that Eru blessed the Elven Rings for the preservation of the Elves until their time to come (back) to Aman. You are right. It doesn't make sense that the evil power that all the Rings of Power were based on could somehow provide positive power because Sauron didn't touch them. What is strange about making the Three Elven Rings is that the first 16 Rings made with Sauron's direct help were supposed to be for Elves anyway.

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

I wonder, should Sauron ever fully have repented, truly altering his ways to a more loving path to world domination, would then the Ring, too, develop some basic Hobbit-sense?

[@williamchamberlain2263]

0:36 "Put on the damn helmet, Shinji!"

[@tominiowa2513]

Baka Shinji?

[@matthewdunham1689]

I remember reading (I think) that the sword(s) Orchrist, Glandring, and Sting "sang" and glowed more brightly than usual when they “drank” the blood of orcs and the spiders? Do I remember that correctly?

[@Enerdhil]

I think it is metaphorical, even that is what was written.

[@matthewdunham1689]

It seems to me the more powerful the smith the more their personality (for better or worse) is transferred into their works.

[@matthewdunham1689]

I just reread the Hobbit and Gandalf's sword, Glamdring reacted thusly when it slew the Great Goblin.

[@Enerdhil]

@@matthewdunham1689 Bilbo was using his poetic license for that event.

[@matthewdunham1689]

​@Enerdhil why wouldn't the swords of Turgon and Ecthelion high elves of the Noldor of the first age have arcane properties like many of the items in the writings of Tolkien? Couldn't Bilbo recollection be taken at face value?

[@richarddeese1087]

Thanks. Love the thumbnail. Geddy Lee & the Silmarills. Cool! It's hard to know what an author considers 'real' in their universe, versus what is merely prosaic or symbolic. But in this case, I think of such things as 'echoes' of of wills that created them or interacted with them. tavi.

[@michaelman957]

I think the Silmarils were good, but they held a power people ought not bear lightly, and therein lay the problem.

[@footballfactory8797]

I love your videos! Subbed!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you! 🥰

[@jimbombadill]

i would argue that trees are not objects, neither the mountains..alot of mountains even in our world are deemed to have some kind of spirit. In the case of kharadrash its also not clear if it is the mountain itself or something living on it. The most objovis object seems to me to be Turins sword...but also there the intent and spirit of the maker seems to have lingered in the object to a level where it can speak. To transfer the will, spirit and intent seems to be a thing in middle-earth. One could argue that the dragons created by Morgoth also had this to some degree. Thanks for an exellent video like usual!

[@IanHeins]

Nice work thanks

[@Valdagast]

Would a Silmaril keep burning in _Sammath Naur?_

[@EriktheRed2023]

I expect so. They still shone in Angband, while worn by Morgoth no less. But you could argue in the other direction if you want: The light from Galadriel's phial, gathered from one of them, failed there. Perhaps the Silmarils shone in Angband because Morgoth allowed them to. But Sauron's will was set directly against Galadriel's, and the phial was overpowered in the Sammath Naur. Or it may be that the phial was made specifically to resist Sauron and his creatures, and so it was suppressed. The Silmarils were made for no purpose of war or strife, and there was no need to suppress them.

[@Enerdhil]

What do you mean? The Silmarili are not burning. They give off light but are not on fire, as Telperion and Laurelin we're not on fire when their light burst forth.

[@Valdagast]

@@Enerdhil "Burning" can be used as a synonym for 'glowing' or 'shining'.

[@Enerdhil]

@@Valdagast I think any philologist will tell you that "burning" is not synonymous with "glowing" or "shining." And Tolkien was not just 'any philologist.' He chose his words with precision and care.

[@tarvoc746]

I sometimes wonder if somewhere deep down, the One Ring wanted to be destroyed. It slips off Isildur's finger and the first being to find it is Deagol, like his brother Smeagol (later Gollum) explicitly described as a Hobbit-like creature. Then its evil tempts Smeagol to take it from Deagol, yet again putting itself into the hand of another Hobbit-like creature, and Smeagol ends up carrying it into the Misty Mountains, where he keeps it for a long time. And then, when the Ring realizes that it's getting nowhere with Gollum, it picks yet another Hobbit to carry it out of the Misty Mountains again. Why, oh why is it always Hobbits? I'd say two is coincidence, but three (or four if you count Frodo) is a pattern. But why does it matter that it's always Hobbits? Because Hobbits are the only sapient beings said to be able to resist the Ring enough to actually give it up and destroy it (probably due to their general lack of ambition or possessiveness). The Ring picking those people over and over again for its journey seems really weird unless you assume that it's either vastly underestimating them (which might be the case) or actively has a death wish.

[@nathanielhellerstein5871]

My head-canon is that Sauron forged the One Ring out of dragon's gold.

[@TumbusCrumbus]

I do like thinking of the ring as a huuuuge shit talker

[@danieldeclue1466]

I like to think that while these objects do have their own sentience, or way of doing things I always considered it identity. Specifically the identities of those who crafted them. It's not the object's fault that each and every one of their makers had fatal flaws😂 except maybe the one ring

[@vigortheone3527]

I think there is a distinct difference between living “things” and traditionally inanimate objects. I think the question here is about the latter. Here, Tolkien captures one of the oldest spiritual concepts in the world: animism. The idea that seemingly inanimate objects can possess a “spirit” so to speak. In all cases that I can think of, it’s the maker who puts something of themselves into the object. Giving it a life of it’s own. Or you could say animating it. Giving it its own motivations, goals, personality and so on.

[@donweatherwax9318]

9:03 Hadn't Gwindor already lost his left hand when he led Túrin to the Pools of Ivrin? A rare error of research by Ted Nasmith, it seems.

[@EriktheRed2023]

It is only fitting that we cannot easily tell when a Tolkienian object is actually a sentient creature. We struggle to actually prove sentience even in each other in the real world. Aulë's experience with the creation of the Dwarves also shows that things can start out without independent will, but then be granted it - even if this is contrary to Eru's original plan. Not likely to have happened a lot, of course.

[@c.antoniojohnson7114]

Gurthang had personality, much like the cursed Muramasa swords of Japan.

[@markus-hermannkoch1740]

Yet, Feanor did not create what makes the Silmarils tick. Yavanna did. And as we know, the Valar cannot create life, unless Eru takes a helping hand. Or did he? Whence comes the light of the trees anyway? Difficult to judge, in a world, where "everything has its ultimate source in Eru". Even the Orc boys.

[@levilandes1719]

Elbereth Undomiel sanctified the silmarils, that sanctity is what determines who and what can handle them.