What is the best kneading technique?

[@nicosgeo]

There is also another major factor in this test. One bread has been baked at the top and the other at the bottom of the oven. Even with the fan operating the top is hotter than the bottom.

[@barrychambers4047]

I'm sorry, I have to respectfully disagree with you, I think the machine mixed loaf looks vastly superior! Great volume in it, with more even crumb. The hand mixed loaf looks kind of under proofed with the large uneven air pockets. We need a taste test to go along with your experiment too.

[@cachi-7878]

It could be a shaping error… Hard to say, based on just one loaf. Had he shown us the gluten network of both doughs, then you could have a better idea why one rose taller. If the gluten network looked similar, then this would point to a shaping issue; assuming of course both got the same amount of bulk fermentation, temperature, etc. BTW, I thought I had seen it all but those oven bags are quite handy for when baking at someone else’s house… Nice!

[@saidalisamed7042]

I agree with you. The machine kneaded one is better in shape and even crumb. If you wanted the hand knead one to also have better gluten development you should have folded 3 times instead of just one fold.

[@asielnorton345]

he only folded them once, and/or never kneaded the hand kneaded bread. had he done more folding, and/or kneaded the bread it would've raised more.

[@shippuuden28]

yep, after baking many many loafs so far, kneading for 6-7 minutes after the autolyse does the job plus a couple sets of folds @@asielnorton345

[@ItsEdSilha]

Agreed

[@testpattern098765432]

I think top shelf vs bottom shelf is an important factor

[@空天-u3p]

I always do hand kneading for around 10 minutes for high hydration dough and then let it rest and do a few extra stretch and fold method few times. The results is very satisfying to me.

[@chrisblanc663]

I’m team hand kneader as well. I find making bread by hand therapeutic.

[@lindagordon2955]

​@chrisblanc663 I do, too. I don't own a mixer, and I expect I never will. I absolutely love kneeding the dough and handling the dough.

[@NZtechfreak]

I have the same KA mixer he uses here, honestly it's kind of garbage for bread. The bread he did here is fairly suitable, being 1kg, higher hydration side, not enriched. If you want enriched doughs like brioche or milk bread, doughs that require really intensive mixing like for Banh Mi, stiffer doughs, or need anything much north of 1kg dough quantity don't bother. It's now reserved for cakes/meringue and doughs I do by hand (I make sourdough once or twice a week, 4kg of milk bread dough once a week, and various other things on a less regular schedule).

[@NZtechfreak]

Oh, as per first poster - I like to give sourdough a good slap and fold on the bench before doing stretch and folds, hard to get strong flour here and also prefer to give it that extra work initially.

[@richardberner8711]

I absolutely enjoy your videos and always learn something. Just as good as the information is the humor, sound effect, and theatrics I prefer the loaf made with the mixer, I like uniform crumb. Great job.

[@Raul28153]

Baking bags are made from heat resistant nylon. So the Bags are most likely made from Nylon1010 It is also known as PA 10/10, it is an unreinforced, plasticized, and heat stabilized, renewably sourced, biobased polyamide 1010 resin developed for extrusion. Since bags are extruded this is highly likely the material Most polymers that are plasticized have Bixphenols and Phthalates in them as they are the top polymer plastizers of preference. I shouldn't have to tell you Phthalates and Bizphenols are to be avoided.

[@cachi-7878]

Oh! Thanks for pointing that out. I was getting all excited about these bags; not for when I bake at home since I have the Challenger bakeware, but when baking at someone else’s home since most likely they wouldn’t have the tools unless they were bread bakers themselves.

[@shippuuden28]

Phthalates aka the penis shrinker.

[@ppainterco]

I don’t trust plastics to be in contact with food. Between the possibility of chemicals leaching into the food, and scratches in the plastic that are a haven for bacteria, I prefer glass or metal. My starters are in glazed ceramic pots with fitted lids that my sister made me just for this purpose. My sourdough is always in a glass or stainless mixing bowl and I use a pot lid to hold the moisture in. Of course, I bake it in a cast iron Dutch oven. No plastics in any of that.

[@Raul28153]

@@ppainterco The bags are single use so no worries about scratches. The only "chemicals" one needs to be concerned with is Bisphenol and Phthalates (they are plasticizers & the latter is the "new car smell;" Phthalates leaching out of the vinyl) and you can always read the label if that's of concern to you

[@ppainterco]

@@Raul28153 yeah, we’ll, we heard the same about BPA. Glass and metal for me. I don’t trust my food in plastic anymore.

[@todddavis4543]

Thank you for being entertaining as well as educational. So much better than 90% of the KZbinrs. I use a Bosch mixer for all kinds of bread. Also, I prefer a crumb like the mixer bread you have in your video. The super open crumb seems like the goal for professional amateurs. I get breadfrom all over Europe and I never see such super open crumb. Nice if you’re just eating it by itself, but who does that thanks again for fun videos. Say hello to the camera person as well.

[@piazza1129]

Both are beauties , I like the even crumb of the mixer loaf Nice work Chef🤘

[@bronsonbrown8300]

Ever since I seen your trick with the paddel attachment that’s I’ll I do now even with my regular hydration doughs. Total game changer for me. Iv done autolysis and coil and stretch and folds and I never could get my bread flour to develop a good gluten network which why my issue with my bread not turning out right.

[@Its1a2date]

I'm sure they both taste good. I do have a stand mixer but I always knead my bread by hand. I enjoy the process. Anyway, I only use 250 grams every 2 days. 60 to 63 hydration. We're filipinos. We prefer rice even during breakfast. But I love my pandesal (dipped in hot coffee). I sure would like to try to make a crusty bread when I saved enough for a good oven. Thank you. I learned so much.

[@יעקבכהן-כ8י]

The difference in the volumes of the loaves is due to the fact that when you put the loaves in the bottom compartment of the oven, which had a pan with sides, you dropped the loaves down, and then the loaves, instead of maintaining their height, expanded to the sides. In addition - the rubber you put on the jar is very dirty, not good How do you determine the flour ratio? And what percentage of protein is there in the strong flour?

[@robertakerman3570]

Dirty rubber not withstanding; U R Right. There needs a side by side comparison. Divide the starter in two & go from there. Smaller loaves (4 maybe), one set uses the "machine" dough on top rack/the other set machine on lower rack. It's possible that the outcome will mirror the video. Interesting X-periment.

[@EJHonn]

Not to mention that the top one looks to be baked on a pizza/bread steel and the bottom one is just on a pan. The steel will contain significantly more heat than the pan one and that will impact the oven spring. Unfortunately not much to take from this experiment, could have looked exactly opposite if you switched the two loves around.

[@יעקבכהן-כ8י]

@@EJHonn Nice, I noticed that too, but I didn't believe that a person who presents himself as a professional would make such a mistake

[@EJHonn]

To be clear I thing this channel is really good in general, but everyone has their off-day :)

[@robertakerman3570]

@@EJHonn Yep! Gotta be "even Steven" to prove / disprove the questionables.

[@noelstonewall7574]

Is there a benefit of using the paddle over the dough hook that comes with most mixers?

[@tommyfrancis7185]

At higher hydrations the dough hook will never knead the dough properly, but the paddle attachment will

[@NZtechfreak]

Also, the C-hook that comes with the KA Artisan is kind of useless.

[@thomasgronek6469]

From a chemical standpoint, I have to disagree with the statement that acid is an enemy of gluten formation . In fact, stronger gluten polymers develop under higher acidic conditions (optimal is pH of about 3.5), Acetic acid has a pKa of 4.76, (pKa is the pH at which it is neutralized) and although it doesn't get more acidic than about 3.7 it is low enough pH for fine gluten polymerization. The acid actually helps, that level does not impede it. I would like mention that gluten is so stable, the stomach pH of a human is about 1.5, and it does not break down gluten, , , what goes in, comes out, except for what is ingested by the gut's microbiome. Many thanks for the video, I am a subscriber, and follower and appreciate all of your videos.

[@空天-u3p]

If every time you feed the starter with very little amount of water and flour you will end up with a very active starter however the dough will tear apart and collapse between your hands, that’s I guess due to high acidity of the starter. That was a problem I used to encounter but solved it after I read about acidity issue by feeding a small a mount of starter with big amount of flour and water.

[@thomasgronek6469]

@@空天-u3p I cannot agree or disagree, I have limited experience with making sourdough, so I have to speak from a chemical standpoint. There are many possible issues with dough, and gluten formation, the trouble is, maintaining all factors at the same level, then varying only one of the possibilities. I would like to say this. the other night, i forgot to add the salt, the dough and gluten formation were perfect, I then realized I needed to add salt, when I did, the whole batch became an unconsolable sticky mess. I worked with it, and cooked it. . it was okay. So, I added salt to the flour the next time, when the water was added, within one minute of mixing on the lowest setting possible (Kitchen aid Pro stand mixer), the whole thing turned to soup, I had to add 25% more flour than I started with to bring it together. I think that salt plays a bigger part than acidity (Only my opinion)

[@joannadziamska7571]

I have the same oven. In my experience everything that’s lower when you bake at two levels becomes less temperature and bakes worse or longer. I see that your upper bread is slightly darker. So it can be true for you to. Thanks for the video. Very nice!

[@Banditxam4]

What oven is that?? Where can I buy it??

[@petersullivan5264]

Love your videos. It is the mixer loaf for me. Much better for a sandwich! Thank you.

[@leezjohan9296]

I love baking bread! Thanks for sharing ❤

[@bradtowne2305]

Curious - why did you not use the dough hook? As someone somewhat newer, is the dough hook for less hydrated doughs while the main mixing arm is for hydrated doughs?

[@carwoman43]

There is another video showing the hook vs paddle and why the paddle creates better gluten development.

[@NZtechfreak]

The C hook in the Artisan machine is kind of useless (I own one and make doughs by hand), the spiral hook in the bowl-lift model a lot better.

[@bartoszpaciukanis7113]

Hi! How long should I keep the dough at room temperature after taking it out of the fridge? :)

[@mutantryeff]

Bread was made how prior to the 20th Century? And thus prior to electrical appliances?

[@richardberner8711]

Use the best tools available Do you ride a horse or drive a car.

[@daveslob]

Nice idea of the baking bags. Will try them for when I’m at someone else’s place. Notwithstanding the different positions in the oven and different pans, I think one of the main reasons for the difference in volume could be because you didn’t actually knead the handmade loaf. You mixed it then did a bowl stretch and fold. The mixer had a lot more machine kneading and then the same bowl stretch and fold. I think a 3-5 minute counter-top Bertinet knead would have made a better comparison. But I really enjoyed the video. I have subscribed. Thanks!

[@corwinblack4072]

You probably think right. Ive tried so far quite a few methods for kneading , and many no knead recipes and really not kneading at all. And only doing stretch + fold definitely impairs gluten development, or if not gluten development, it impairs resulting bread structure to some degree. When it comes to regular bread, its better to not cut any corners. And ofc Bertinet method is apparently the best. At least from what I tried. Other option, which IMHO is okay way to "cheat" is to do something around half machine, half handmade. Got so far pretty good results when I let mixer start and after it gets to some decent structure I finish it by hand. Less work, about same results.

[@daveslob]

@@corwinblack4072​Yep, I’ve realised that dough will basically look after itself but you can help a little with a different kneading method. For dry dough, use the hand kneading method - e.g. traditional Paul Hollywood UK hand knead. For wet dough use the Bertinet method ( a lot of fun this), and if you’re bored of a five minute knead then bowl stretch and fold about three/four times (if you have 2-3 hours). But simply mixing everything together for 4-5 mins and then letting the dough rest for 10-15 minutes will likely show the same results! Dough is an amazing animal - but the making sure the starter is active sure helps - I always preferment the day before so it’s nice and hungry.

[@JoeSmith-rd5cv]

4:53 i’m wondering how much of the water you added in the beginning, midway, and at the end. Also, how long did you mix the the dough for, at what speed on a KitchenAid stand mixer and did you take brakes periodically to avoid overheating the dough? Lastly, is there a reason why you use the paddle versus the dough hook attachment?

[@evelyngrunstein7025]

I love the experiment while using wheat flours and rye. But what happens when you use spelt flour? Are the results similar? Thanks.

[@mikey19608]

I did not know baking bags can withstand hi temp 480F, would be nice if you post the link for the bags.

[@annacelina2883]

Beautiful breads! I could almost smell them. 😄 But WHY plastic bag?!? We should avoid plastic! Anyway thank you.

[@Topol60]

Great comparison! But I like smaller holes😮

[@HenkVeenendaal]

The different results using baking in the bottom half of the oven vs. the top half makes a lot of difference too.

[@erickmcgraw]

Should sourdough always be very dry? That's mostly my experience with it.

[@themaker1000000]

Hi thanks a lot for your video ,But the most important thing you didn't write. Did you bake with turbo fan, or normal heat?

[@cliffcox7643]

You said acid is the enemy of gluten, but what about ascorbic acid, or is that just the name of them chemical and not acidic in pH?

[@edithgravel9029]

Very good experiment. Why using the paddle on the Kitchen Aid instead of the hook?

[@glutenmorgentven]

When I use hi hydration doughs I prefer the paddle.

[@edithgravel9029]

@@glutenmorgentven thank you. It makes a lot of sense. Keep the good work.

[@NZtechfreak]

The C-hook with the KA Artisan is fairly pathetic regardless of bread type in any case (the spiral on their bowl-lift model much more effective). I own an Artisan but for doughs you're often better off making by hand than that machine.

[@drmarionrosedyess2621]

Just wondering, Mr. Gluten Morgen, if you would attempt making a Pan de Crystal in this type of blender? 😊

[@JYSTZU]

Morgen From MALAYSIA. I bake lots of sourdough. My fave and its my small business too (my utmost happiness of baking). I wish to have class on dough weights before bake, after bake and dough weight for the appropriate baneton or boule basket to use. It will be useful to know that. I have your app but its better if we have some practical class?

[@peterthomas5792]

The mixer loaf is clearly the winner here...

[@cachi-7878]

@9:11, you crack me up every time you say autolyse. It’s pronounced autoLEEZE; it’s a French word… Anyway, carry on!

[@themaker1000000]

Who wants to speak French, and certainly not in the context of food. After all, there is no real French cuisine. They eat anything that doesn't run fast enough.

[@huikuentan4048]

Can i use bread maker machine to make sourdough?

[@barrychambers4047]

It is possible to mix a 1 loaf recipe in a bread machine, but if you try to make the whole loaf in the machine the timing will probably be off, because sourdough typically needs more time to ferment than yeasted dough. There are a couple of high dollar bread machines that have a sourdough setting.

[@huikuentan4048]

@@barrychambers4047 tq for ur reply.

[@dottiburke40]

Great video. Can you tell me how long I should mix the dough in the stand mixer?

[@jacynthefraser2046]

I would like to know too

[@todddavis4543]

Generally, around five minutes, but time is not the measurement here. Stop the mixer and check for window pane. As soon as you can pull a window pane that’s sufficient. Also if you try it, try it without that stretching fold that he did. I get the same results without it, but that can very based on the flour and other factors.

[@ohayogosaimas2286]

I will be affectionately nitpicking: - there's hardly any video of the "kneading with hands" part. TBH I had the intention to compare various slap and fold methods - autolyse with the sourdough?!? That is proofing, not autolyse ;) Jokes aside, the dough would have behaved differently, had it had an actual autolyse after which the fermentation agent (leaven or yeast) would have been added.

[@bertje6966]

Baking in a bag? How is it not melting?

[@Nicolas-cl1gq]

It's a cancerogen

[@heelaalgazi5959]

What’s strong flour? I live in Texas. I shopped around in many grocery stores, never found the strong flour. Thanks.

[@barrychambers4047]

In the states it is termed as "bread flour."

[@mickeyhead9770]

Strong flour is bread flour.

[@Gluesticky21]

What kind of bags are you using to bake the breads?

[@glutenmorgentven]

It´s a bag for baking chicken, fish, etc.

[@VanAlphenStudio]

This looks more like the difference between a no knead method and using a mixer.

[@jan-martinulvag1962]

no slapping?

[@themaker1000000]

How long in the mixer . Thanks

[@hair_stationhair6180]

Inspiration for me this video

[@steffenbrandorff4902]

Another interesting experiment. But the choice of music underneath is really disturbing/annoying to another musician. Very lazy tempo in the baking, but hectic pseudo active music really kills my joy when watching your shows. Could you please choose music a little less superficially ? There should be the same relation btw music and picture as in a real movie. And a few glitches: you point to the better loaf with the words "this one" - but the camera is focusing on you face - not your finger. Your show is fine, but I would appreciate these improvements.

[@jan-martinulvag1962]

He is stupid. That it

[@hridoygovindadas914]

I will never get tired of baking bread!

[@chrisg0001]

This is not how Bertinet taught you

[@julmed3649]

Hola , Sigo sus videos con mucho interés. Hice mi primer sourdough pan siguiendo su receta de 70% de hidratación y harina de panadería (bread flour) Salió un poco denso. Cual debe ser el tamaño del molde y de la canasta para que levante? Acabo de comprar una y tiene 10 inches por 6, parece muy pequeña. Gracias

[@SonOfTheChinChin]

i love when old youtubers are using meme thumbnails

[@ThatGuy-dj3qr]

I think you are quite biased in your judgement. In my opinion, the evidence points toward the machine kneaded loaf. Either way, I think the best way to assess any experiment where the determination is subjective is with a small panel of judges. At the very least, there should be one other person involved at test time.

[@denizovecoglu6759]

I followed your instructions from sourdough starter to bread. Used mixer to make the dough. It raised good. Kept it 4 hours in room temp. Excellent gluten structure. Placed it in banetton and kept it in fridge covered overnight. This morning baked it in dutch owen. Taste is great. I can eat the whole loaf just like that BUT the bread is raised during baking. Crust is good, lots of bubbles and good taste. Used bread flour and rye flour. Why it did not become like yours fat, plumb like real artisan bread??? Where did I fail. Please HELP.

[@denizovecoglu6759]

After carefully followed your presentations finally after seven trials I arrived a fantasticly risen bread. 6th version was a disaster because forgot to add salt.😂😂😂😢😢😢. Have been using 12,7% bread flour. Just purchased gluten and will try to increase it to 14%. Been using mixer for kneeding. But in a short while I will dive into hand kneeding. THANK YOU Morgen.

[@rdehoog89]

I followed this recipe exactly like in the video but it was a fail. No wheat flour, nott enough stretch and folds or long enough proof time perhaps.

[@robertboyd6475]

You should have tried the other bread.

[@bellamylittlegirl1029]

Awesomeness ~

[@tjohnsATL]

WHAT IS THAT BAG MADE OF??!

[@glutenmorgentven]

It´s plastic, but it´s made for baking poultry, fish, etc.

[@hollyv117]

I want to bake with you 😂

[@Redspeciality]

When you score the loaf, you are supposed to hold the blade at a 45° angle to the surface of the bread

[@dottiburke40]

Everyone's a critic!

[@Cinepobrefilmfestival]

wet all the flowers LOL. krauts

[@outdoor1640]

I'm not sure i understand the recipe. Items don't add up to 100%. Should it not be 40% strong flour, 40% Water, 7.4% whole wheat flour, 2.5% rye flour, 10% sourdough starter and 1% Salt. Totaling 100%

[@jenchem42]

The percentages usually refer to the percentage of the flour, total flour being 100%. I don't remember what hydration he used here was (I don't feel like going back to rewatch that part) but like 70% water usually means a 70% hydration dough... 70 g of water for every 100 g of flour.

[@Grundewalt]

the 99g..and all that rocket science put me off. No offense man. It reminds me of Breaking bad

[@11BossLife11]

😋😋😋👍👍👍

[@angiebishop6316]

Enough with the infernal music already! I gave up after a bit over 4 minutes. Couldn't take it anymore. Why why why do we need that noise?!?