Gnosticism Refuted & St Irenaeus Against Heresies - Jay Dyer (Half)

#irenaeus #gnostic #bible
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This is the free half, while the full talk will be available the following day to subscribers to JaysAnalysis.com. After many requests, I have decided to cover gnosticism and why I am not a gnostic. The first half will cover the lure of Gnosticism and its modern variants, and the often overlooked aspect of who funds gnostic movements and books. Then the second hour for subscribers to JaysAnalysis will cover the meaty details from St. Irenaeus' Against Heresies and the gnostic popularizing books by Elaine Pagels and others, with specific philosophical and logical refutations.

[@megusultracool]

Big thanks to Jay for turning me away from Gnosticism.

[@sidpan8218]

I didn’t know it was still a thing

[@Manuel-jt3fp]

@@sidpan8218 Sadly it's making a HUGE comeback, along with other ancient once-defeated heresies.

[@jackjames6849]

@@Manuel-jt3fp Gnosticism doesn't go away, it just morphs itself into the shape of the spirit of the age.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Yes, and science came out of alchemists who were heretical “Christian’s” pulling from various esoteric and pagan systems. Then science went into philosophy. Current Gnosticism is science seeking its symbols and parasitic assault on Christianity. Most Christians today are gnostics in waiting.

[@megusultracool]

@@Ac-ip5hd philosophy predates alchemy. So does gnosticism. Christianity was the first human religion going back to Adam.

[@seraphx26]

I know this is an older video but I am just watching it for the first time, to me it seems the obvious flaw of Gnosticism is that it's looking to blame God for mans problems, that it's based around this idea of a cosmic jailer and that this conveniently lets all of us off the hook for our own personal wickedness because after all it couldn't possibly be us could it? I tend to be very suspicious of any belief that is foundationally built solely on the antithesis, I also don't see why anyone would think that Gnosticism as it has historically existed is all that alluring, after all what is it's theology? what is it's daily observance and ritual? like most of these new age spiritual paths it seems to be a mish mash of feel good nonsense designed to elevate man over God. Thank you for rightly refuting this nonsense Jay, it's good to see learned men of the word dispelling these old heresies that are starting to creep back into society.

[@openmusic3904]

Gnosticism doesn’t let you off the hook, by any stretch. Christian Gnostics believed in acting out of benevolence, truth, and wisdom. To act with wickedness was to succumb to the desires of the Demiurge, Yahweh. As he, according the Gnostics, thrived of conflict and human suffering. A great deal of Gnostics lived disciplined lives of abstinence. By virtue of rejecting ‘worldly’ things. Also, Gnosticism isn’t antithetical, as it still supposes Jesus Christ came to save mankind. It also has its own god, angels, heaven(s). It doesn’t work within the confines of the Bible just so it can negate, in other words. That’s antithesis, like Satanism. Christian Gnosticism is simply an alternative ‘sect’ of Christianity. With emphasis on Christ.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Yet it’s still arrogant because it asserts your participation and consciousness experiences are necessary to God and that in many cases too much pagan, universalist and Satanic hinge get in for integration and Jungian antimony, such as Jung’s call for Lucifer in quaternity and a spiritual evolutionist attitude to eventually transcend Christianity, be it that angle, or the Chardin Catholics. It quit often lacks any fixity, swings mainly to a woke process type of thing you see at Swedenborg churches to a Ginuard type traditionalism and right wing pagan Christianity, or what you see with Henry Corbin, much of which is too fragmentary to build churches and community so they go to other churches to either go through the motions or flat out infiltrate and ruin them. And many cannot hold that discipline to a far greater percentile than Orthodox and Catholics fail their ideal. Aeon Byte Gnostic radio is a great example of Christian gnostics who go that route then next episode are full on Crowley. Tom Cheetham, James Hillman, and John Vervaeke are all using Corbin, but throw out his command to follow the precepts of your religion and do not strike at the face of God, along with the Book Of John’s command to test the spirits by repeatedly making them say the dogmas in the belief in Christ, which cannot be done if you don’t truly believe it, let alone 2,000 of Hesychasm and discernment of religious experiences, which the Gnostic Christians and chiliasm clearly refuse to do because they may lose their spiritual toys.

[@rolandinnamorato1953]

You just tore apart my whole young adulthood hahaha. All Glory to God.

[@OneBalance]

By about 18:00, I felt as though I would like to interject upon the idea of why Gnosticism could have such an allure in the modern day. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, and one REALLY fundamental idea which 'allured' me or at least peaked my interest to a profound degree, was the idea that this world IS the tree of knowledge of good and evil. It sounds bizarre but at least let me try to relate why that idea struck me so deeply. When I was still a teenager and going through a period of spiritual crisis, wherein I couldn't allow myself to believe stories I couldn't understand, (let alone somehow decode) and further had never experienced anything of an angel, a demon, or a god--I approached a priest of the Catholic Church (in which I had been raised) and vented my anxieties. One poignant concern I had was the existence of other religions and the infinite of facts and opinions, that by the very fact of our limited nature could never be fully assimilated and digested into Truth. Rather, I said, "We smash the World with our intellect into a thousand pieces and then try to relate the pieces all back to each other again, and once we find new relationships we smash the world into another million pieces to try and do the same thing, all the while using this knowledge to gain some sense of superiority, power, etc." It literally presented itself as a 'sinking' feeling, like sinking into an ocean of endless relationship of facts. And I thought to myself, "Maybe that is what is meant by tasting the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil" (Good and Evil being nothing other than dual/duel nature, the first division, the essence of conflict and anguish) and maybe that is why tasting it leads to a 'fall/sink'. Anyway, that was then, and when I found a philosophy which expressed this idea, and then more, I was of course instantly drawn to it. I find there is something wrong with men's inclination toward worldly knowledge, especially in relationship to things like AI and transhumanism. It is as if we taste the fruit of the knowledge of division, and in hubris think we can create something more perfect than creation---well something like that Any way, this was a very long comment, but as I'm sure you know, large ideas usually require a lot of scaffolding. Great videos man, always enjoy the content.

[@whocares4464]

🤔

[@ArtificialVik]

this is a good comment. gave me some food for thought.

[@finnsharp6138]

Are you orthodox

[@brazy333]

You could do days of material on this subject and I'd never get tired of listening to it. Thanks!

[@SVladZ]

Hail Dyer of the Jay.

[@theodore8178]

Even Plotinus saw what was wrong with them.

[@stevemiller929]

Great talk, Jay. Just out of curiosity, to which Orthodox jurisdiction do you belong?

[@hrd708]

It looks like he is from Moscoww Patriarchate

[@Tresla1408]

Sorry Jay this is a bit off topic, but could you recommend some good books on the history of Byzantine empire. I would much appreciate it.

[@apostolosmate3361]

I recently read the 'Lost World of Byzantium'. It's academic, but very well written. Additionally, you may have a look on 'Sailing from Byzantium', which focuses more on culture, or 'Lost to the West', which explains very good the Roman continuity.

[@Tresla1408]

Tnx

[@juliantheapostate6520]

It doesn't matter if you could use this, but for the Byzantine Empire - John Julian Norwitch's (a retired diplomat who writes narrative history for money now) trilogy gives a descent summery of the events, the older duology by A. Vasiliev gives a good overview as well, though I recommend Enno Franzius'. Useful primary texts are things like the Chronicle of Theophanis, the Alexiad by Princess Anna Kommena, Michel Psellus' Chronographia and funeral orations, and some of the novels or poems -the Digenes Akrites is pretty good, though rather late. Parts of the Philokalia. On specific topics, Byzantine Magic -the collected writings of a conference covers ideas of magic in the Greek East, on Charioteers - Prohyrius the Charioteer, a few stories of Saint's lives -like Daniel the Stylite, St. Theodore of Synkeon, John the Amlsgiver are good to start with., and there are several preserved military treatises. Late Roman Empire/Early Eastern Roman Empire - Primary sources: Amianus Marcellinus, Eusibieus, and the New History of Zosimus. (There are many others though). Julian the Apostate -a complete collection of his writings would be good to start with, and then Last Pagan Emperor (Tietler), Julian the Apostate (Bowersock), & Julian's God's (). Something for the Sassanid Persians - Sassanian Persia by Touraj Daryaee (bit of a chip about westerners not taking ancient Iranian civs seriously, but is still good) , and M. P. Canepa's The Two Eyes of the earth (for Byz and Sassanid diplomacy) Islam and Byz -North Africa under Byzantium and Early Islam (Susan T. Stevens), From Byzantine to Islamic Egypt (M. Mickhail), & Muslim Expansion in north Africa (W. Kaegi - who repeats himself alot, but it is still informative and in depth) Jews - Jewish Messiahs in a Christian Empire: A History of the Book of Zerubbabel (Martha Himmelfarb -dislike of Byz by Jews), History of the Byzantine Jews (Elli Kohen -overall view, focuses more on the Jews who ruled in Byz), Crysostom and the Jews (R.L. Wilkon reads a bit more that may really be true - ) Fourth Crusade- important topic, but I don't know whats best here - gets really polemical very quickly -The Debate of the Crusades (Christopher Tyerman) is good. Break up of Byz Empire- A Byzantine Government in Exile: Government and Society Under the Laskarids of Nicaea 1204-1261 (Michael Angold) Russia- Byzantium and the Rise of Russia (John Meyendorf -good writer, and bk covers Byz more than Russia) & Varangians of Byzantium (Sigfus Blondal), ?Militery Saints in Byzanium and Rus (Monica White) Late Byz Church debates - there are three books called "Greek/Byzantine east and Latin West" - the one by D. J. Geanakoplos is pretty good. Gregory of Nyssa's books, some of Palamas' (the triads). Ottomon Empire- Great Church in Captivity (Steven Runciman was a bit over simplifying with his vision, so extra examination needed here), & the chapters in The Byzantine Tradition after the fall of Constantinople. Big Picture - Empire to commonwealth (Garth Fowden) - his thesis unnecessarily stresses almost perennialist ideas, but points to better things, The Byzantine Republic (Anthony Kaldellis) -argues that Byz was not the theocracy Gibbon mischaracterized it as. Bonus points - archeological texts (once translated and distilled into useful to non- specific field experts) like the defense of North Africa.”

[@MrLearningmath]

Great talk!

[@ElCaballoTV]

You should cover Catharism

[@NepticChronicles]

Hey Jay what’s your stance on the Aerial Toll Houses, are they Heretical gnostic ideas or do orthodox accept?? Thank you

[@hankbukowski5383]

Insightful as always Jay. What English translation of the Bible do you recommend for it's overall accuracy?

[@JayDyer]

Hank Bukowski Orthodox Christian study bible

[@hankbukowski5383]

Jay Dyer Thanks bud. Feel better.

[@TheMaxKids]

Jay Dyer Do you have a list of Christian study books you'd recommend? I've come to the realization after over a decade of intense study (usual conspiracy, occult and history material) that the spiritual realm is the source of all our problems/solutions and am really curious why we (truth seekers) all know more about Thelema than the Bible. Hmmmmm...

[@Rpxvision261]

No modern translation is reliable, check out Bart Ehrmans book "Misquoting Jesus" for why. Dont let Jay's sophistry trick you!

[@Cobruh_Commander]

@@Rpxvision261 Ok heretic

[@jchart01]

A slightly strange aside perhaps, but are any of you guys familiar with the Swedish role-playing game Kult? It incorporates many Gnostic ideas. One that I remembered listening to Jay's talk just now, was that in the game, Humanity originally inhabited a dimensional space known as Metropolis (a Babel of sorts?). A sort of timeless and endless city. And, the Demi-Urge somehow tricked us into this realm. I don't know if that's all 100% accurate as I haven't read the core rulebook in 20 years or so. But it was interesting stuff at the time. The game seemed to draw a lot of inspiration from the Hellraiser films. Anyway, great presentation.

[@susanpower9265]

18/04 who has funded Gnosticism and Elaine Pagels and its promotion under UNESCO Thank you for recommending Michael Lambert medieval history to check out

[@monopodbs]

You are even more scary when you are in invisible diva mode :o)

[@MarkTrujilloDesignsandMedia]

So far he does not know what he's talking about from what I hear but still listening

[@rainbowsprankles6085]

Why can we assume the organizational principles of elite theory don’t apply in full to the Hellenized Jews that became the first centralized church authority?

[@infotruther]

Jay you need to be on Rumble oddyssee bitcute ect

[@DrPortugalLeadershipArchitect]

OH MY GOD you always CRACK ME UPPPPPP. But, I want to see the beautiful Sophia Dyer maybe in a dress next time too

[@joshua_finch]

Jay I'm looking for a critique that would also apply to Sikhism which has the doctrine of Maya.

[@horkosofdonso7624]

Is it cannon to assert all gentiles who devote themselves to the teachings of Yeshua are of “Abraham’s household”? Some theistic source or two would be appreciated. I’m not going to circumcise myself because of 1 uncredible comment on youtube. lol

[@altdimension1739]

Hi Jay. Why do Gnostics make the demiurge look like a lion head with a serpent body

[@hodorthepolishpainter]

because Sethians ripped off depictions of Satan

[@diesect33]

Pythagoras means I am the python, as an aside.

[@Prettypurpleflowers]

1:05.24 refuted. Isaiah 45:7 King James Version 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and ,(create evil): I the Lord do all these things.

[@ColtonBrown12]

Only in the kjv. The original text translates to calamity not evil.

[@MishC619]

Ah yes the bodiless diva voice... we’ll take it

[@MarnieN11-11]

Rest and be well. You work like a demon more like it ;P

[@aintgotnoname6548]

I wonder if the point of this is that you could get snarled in arguing about it.. literally... forever. It would make you think you were enlightened, when really you were missing the point. What I don't see in gnosticism is a personal relationship with the creator. Not sure what one would personally receive in benefit from these beliefs , besides a firm conviction that one has stumbled onto something fantastically different and unique, and that to really subscribe to it one might be a cut above the rest of the deluded sheep. Gnosticism is very attractive to the most pedantic among us, precisely because of its obscurity, its mystery, and its willful subversion. Tbh it's that very subversiveness that repulses me. I also don't need my god to be masculine and feminine.to each his own. Ill be excited to hear what Jay has to say on it though.

[@bluespiral4678]

Just a different understanding of God. Orthodox exoteric religions believe God is an anthropomorphized separate entity from creation while some esoteric gnostic philosophies believe that God and Creation are one in the same. Although there are elitist and dark occultist that want everyone to believe they are God and of a higher order than everyone else. Believe what you want though.

[@rainbowsprankles6085]

You’re so deep into apologetics that it’s kind of hard to follow your thinking. What is your stance on comparative religion (textual comparisons)?

[@rainbowsprankles6085]

While your Geo politics are always clear the apologetic/theological content is difficult to follow because you only provide references rather than citing examples that support your argument

[@BrotherLaymanPaul]

Hmmm... Less than 100 comments??? Probably, nay, _must_ be because this stream is too esoteric and gnostic for normie blue-pill Christians to understand! Jk, obv :-P ...clearly it’s because not enough peeps know the moose-antler handshake to grock the goodies in this one. 😆 Great presentation, Jay! -Paul

[@joseph5521]

44:36 you don’t think there’s a conspiracy behind 9/11?

[@JayDyer]

grgr basil I call the official story a conspiracy theory here

[@marypaterson3191]

Hey jay, went to order esoteric hollywood....$60, I m only in canada, wish I could get the u.s. rate (if i lived in Europe, I could see the $30 diff)....I m broke ass boo hoo me.

[@JayDyer]

Mary Paterson I can’t control shipping costs to Canada - 20-30 bucks

[@marypaterson3191]

I m bummed!

[@josephpizzano5953]

The eyes are blind by what the mind can't see.

[@hankbukowski5383]

Also maybe if you go to the local CVS for a flu vaccine you could avoid getting sick in the next few months ahead. Ahahaha goes myself...

[@titaniumheart9645]

This comment aged well

[@MarkTrujilloDesignsandMedia]

So why don't you ask yourself a question have you ever noticed any contradictions in your Torah and New Testament? Have you ever asked yourself why a ever loving God would command all the things he does in the Old Testament? What have you come up with so far ... is it working for you?

[@carlosvelasquez3279]

I'm still stuck in between Orthodoxy and Gnosticism. I think Moses existed and he wrote the Torah , but Adam and Eve are just characters so we are here eating from the tree of Good and Evil experiencing good and evil within and without.... I believe Jesus Christ came to save us, but we must come to realizations , for example realize that the Tree of Good and Evil is the estate of being we're here, experiencing here in this earthly life.

[@JayDyer]

Carlos Velasquez kzbin.info/www/bejne/nl6cmqmEgZd3aJI

[@MarkTrujilloDesignsandMedia]

He's laughing at the ideas of Yaldabaoth and Sophia yet the Bible itself references angels and a heavenly host and divine hierarchy itself in almost every other book if not all of them. How do you get around the fact that there are so many atrocities being committed in the Old Testament in the name of Yahweh... and Yaldabaoth the one saying that I am a jealous God you shall not have any other Elohim beside me.. and yet the crypto Book of John.. which is no more or no less esoteric sounding than the Book of Revelation, flat out says that Yaldabaoth is the one who said "I am a jealous God and there are none other beside me"... again I'm not saying to believe the Gnostic texts I'm just saying that Maybe all of its kind of like questionable.. maybe there's 25% good in both the nag hammadi, the Gnostic stuff as well as the Bible that is actually good.. but then 75% of it is just a bunch of things that are not healthy for you.. I don't see how one person can Bosch one thing like the nag hammadi and then say that what he has in his hand, the Bible isn't absurd.. And besides that why don't you look at the damn world and year in history books and count how much genocide has been the result of religion in general? Furthermore I don't know....maybe maybe. . your pastors and Priests and rabbis .. not necessarily teachers like this guy, because he's such a great guy... maybe they're the ones practicing magic and hypnosis and NPR like scam artist as well? Think about it

[@MarkTrujilloDesignsandMedia]

Daniel KS won't be the last time you'll see it. Lummox

[@binary]

Gotta agree with you man. The Old Testament is too weird to be taken literally.

[@Sam-xr8ne]

I found people doing actual hypnosis on KZbin.

[@darkseaofempathy]

It's too bad Jay never responded to your comments. You ask a lot of the same questions as me--not saying Gnosticism is the answer, but I don't know enough to refute it entirely either. Still studying, still learning.

[@Ac-ip5hd]

Yeah they knew there were hosts and angels, no shit. There is a fall with Satan. Then a second fall when the angels who are tempted by the women create the Nephilim and give forbidden knowledge used to make weapons of war, seduction, pharmakia, and the khemmis.After Babel God withdraws and gives dominion over other peoples to a section of his heavenly hosts and those principalities and angels who accept the worship (which tempts them like the angels who took daughters of men) also become fallen. This is the attitude towards other Gods, and the sexual creation of heroes and demigods in other religions are the giants to the Hebrews. After the flood there are still peoples doing this and the Amorites are the western Babylonians under Hammurabi that have new technologies and are enslaving everyone. He claims antideluvian knowledge (knowledge from before the flood.) You can think of Steve Jobs tripping on LSD and doing meditation to create the IPhone, Nikolai Tesla and his visions, or the mystic Dr. Oppenheimer quoting the Hindus after making the atomic bomb on giants and the giant power they wield. Napoleon would be a giant, Hitler, Marx, or Mike Tyson, Mushashi or the Viking berserkers who used psychedelics for a battle trance. That’s why the Israelites are forbidden to take treasure from the Amorites in Joshua and Dueteronomy, same with Saul, unlike Moses’s people taking gold out of Egypt. That’s suitable pagan knowledge and philosophy that they turn to idolatry with the calf but later get it right and ornament the tabernacle. The knowledge of the giants is forbidden knowledge, David is waging war on the last of the giants who are mercenaries. It’s a similar near East situation to the way Vikings were mercenaries all the way down to Rome. And this forbidden knowledge gives us science through the alchemists who as Jung says we’re gnostics. And look how we’re doing with that. We try to comprehend all knowledge of good and evil, cute disease and now corona, everyone enslaved to their phones.

[@MarkTrujilloDesignsandMedia]

Hahaha okay yes it is very easy to comprehend and it does apply and you can easily make sense of every bit of it if you know what you're reading.... if you know the Bible front to back if you've already read the Torah as well as the New Testament you can easily apply the Gnostic teachings to it and it makes perfect sense

[@MarkTrujilloDesignsandMedia]

So I'm still sort of like learning about who this guy is who's doing the video I'll refrain from ripping him a new one until I find out more

[@MarkTrujilloDesignsandMedia]

Why don't you ask this guy... why don't all of you listeners ask this guy who Irenaeus was, who, him being a Roman in Gaul (France) , who was a contemporary of Nishop VictorI under Emperor Commodus.. ask him what these two did to all the churches in Asia Minor including Philadelphia who Jesus loved

[@AnotherAnon735]

This entire video is just you jumping from topic to topic or saying that entities we are supposed to dislike are apparently gnostic, telling us what we are supposed to think, and expecting us to believe you because you have read so many books and are so well informed. Despite your video being more than an hour long, you never give an actual coherent refutation of Gnosticism as you claim to, all you seem to say is that it is not the same thing as orthodox Christianity which I think was obvious to anyone, just repeating that Gnosticism is ridiculous and retarded with little explanation. You literally don't even touch on the main point about how the pessimism in the new testament cannot be reconciled with the optimism of the old- how the old testament God created the world and saw that it was good in genesis, but Jesus taught to be ascetic because of how flawed the world so apparently is. It might just be this video is different than most of yours because it is the only one I have seen, but maybe you should make a script and focus on fully explaining things.