Gnosticism Then and Now Sheldrake-Vernon Dialogue 69

[@Thebusysuperhuman]

Ordinary people have huge TVs Extraordinary people have huge libraries. Very interested in what the “Gnostic Jesus” said but also the whole idea of Gnosticism. Thank you as always for sharing your wisdom

[@zaquiemeredith]

Marvellous. I admire your wisdom Rupert Sheldrake!

[@enidsnarb]

I watch many high science people in many disciplines . Last night I watched hours and hours on the holes in the accepted evolution theorems by several good theist scientists . I found your take on the morphic field in transferring the information for new versions of new species through generations to be quite logical ! I have had witnessed telepathic experiences with my close family , what you are teaching is very real ! Thank You from Claremont California

[@lovedicedtomatoes9653]

These conversations are such a gift.

[@BillBrutzman]

This discussion helps illuminate _ the meaning and significance of St. Paul in letters and scriptures. Bravo and alleluia!

[@hanknelson3231]

Paul had a real experience that more than convinced him that there really was a Devine realm present and sentient, on the road to Damascus.

[@chrisd6982]

Great light effect on Mark's shirt.

[@PauldelJunco]

Speaking of the machine, have you thought of interviewing Paul Kingsnorth who has a lot to say about “the Machine”?

[@anewhumanstory]

A wonderful contemplation. Thank you for the nourishment. +++

[@lokeshparihar7672]

i couldn't find links to discussions on gnosticism by david bantley hart , which you said you will put in notes below.

[@neogirl37]

Absolutely fantastic to hear you guys discuss this. 😁😁😁

[@NoeticEidetics]

At 17:20 Vernon mentions the Book of Luke and that Christ went into the clouds, does anyone know which section of Luke? I did a quick search and didn’t find it but will search more. To compare traditions, in the Islamic tradition there is a Hadith in the collection of Tirmidhi that mentions the paradoxical and enigmatic “location” of God as a cloud, and the mystical (such as the Moroccan sufi, Ibn Ajiba) commentators explain that as a metaphor of a subtlety where the presence of God is beyond any above or below or place. But it’s curious that we have this metaphor of “cloud” in both instances.

[@OrigenisAdamantios]

This is the best!!! Thank you! 🙏🏼

[@Logan.Ninefingers]

This has been very helpful for me. Thank you. Consciously align with the good, the Christ Consciousness, to live in a better world (as reflection of that inner alignment) and hopefully make the world we live in just that little bit better as well.

[@ruipedroparada]

The Romantics require perhaps some revisiting....Thanissaro Bhikkhu''s "Buddhist Romanticism" presents an interesting angle. Many thanks for the Dialogue

[@carolbailey1325]

An excellent new book that addresses the idea of the machine and where we are today is The End of the Megamachine: A brief history of a failing civilization. by Fabian Scheilder. Noam Chompsky and Vandana Shiva, among others endorse this book. I highly recommend this book...the context of where we are now. Includes the origins of our Western Science and separation of spirit from material, including all nature. As if it is a mechanism that has no life or spirit of its own...a mere tool to be used and dominated.

[@muzzamil9833]

Please bring in Michael Tsarion in your podcast, he’s got a firm grip on these topics including the occult sciences. A kind request to sir sheldrake.

[@shawnhollahan590]

Five-Star ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐Conversation.

[@thedumbguncollector5546]

I missed you guys. For some reason I forgot to check in on this awesome podcast for six months or so.

[@rolandsilver7742]

I really like the idea of this life preparing for the next realm.

[@WhiteStoneName]

Father Richard Rohr has said something very similar. Like, “This life is a learning to die, so that when the real thing happens we say, ‘oh, I know this.’” Self-denial, self-emptying, love.

[@forthegloryofthelord]

You gentlemen should one day talk to Jonathan Pageau. I see you could understand his ideas, which took me some time to comprehend.

[@ramlosaclash]

Love the Drake!

[@monicafontana9588]

Jesus himself quoted a passage from psalms which says that we are gods in the gospel of John. This gospel belongs to the Johannine literature ("letteratura giovannea" in Italian) and takes inspiration from the gnostic tradition. In fact, it was written in greek.

[@hansalef5640]

Dear Rupert, as a roman- catholic I struggle with the church and I am fascinated by the teaching of Eckhart Tolle. Would you be so kind as to give me your opinion about Eckhart Tolle? Many thanks in advance. Hans :-)

[@shawnhollahan590]

Links in the description are not all working (marks)... please double check them.

[@normaodenthal8009]

Another wonderful dialogue, as usual! It doesn’t get any better than a discussion about one of my favourite authors. For a beautiful journey into the imaginal realm, exquisitely expressed, I would urge anyone to read David Bentley Hart’s book: Roland In Moonlight, which also has the best description of Trump I have ever come across.

[@redtaperecorder1]

Welcome back, friends!

[@1Live2Love3Thrive]

Ruperts look 👁when he uses the word "instinct" and opts for a psychological explanation as if consciousness is relegated only to the human skull to mitigate what one could call esoteric.

[@heatherwhitehead3743]

Be not conformed but transformed by this world. The heart is the center of the will. The will being the arena of moral choice.

[@yomecagm]

thank you sir , very interesting ;)

[@bertibear1300]

Thanks so much.It seems that Rudolf Steiner may have been right .

[@soapmode]

Gnosticism seems often to be about our struggle to escape the limits imposed by our own ideas of ourselves and the world (often learned through culture). To apprehend and inquire about the world we use limit, demarcation, and category; then we inadvertently apply them to ourselves. You can see this in both the machine metaphor, and that of the animal. Another limit is that of the inner/outer myth, something Wittgenstein was at pains to point out.

[@thelatestarter]

Check out supernatural by Michael Heiser.

[@plato2030]

I would like to here more about your time in india please

[@Demosophist]

The machine age or mechanistic industrial revolution and its associated mentality began with the Gutenberg press and ended in the 1850s with the advent of the telegraph, at which point we moved out of a mechanistic mentality (or encapsulated it would be a more accurate image) into the electrical industrial revolution. Print was the first truly "mass" medium, but was registered to human scale time. Electrical media and mentality are registered to the instantaneous speed of light (or what seems instantaneous to humans). But our science is largely still dominated by the mechanistic. Our theories of the universe and our theories of politics and economics are still mechanistic because it was in the interests of the new tetrad managers of the electrical age to prevent us from understanding how our preferences and desires come about. You can rule people very effectively if you can manage their desires and preferences without their conscious awareness, and they didn't want to blow this cover. But now their formulas for control, which they thought were foundational, no longer work... because we've entered a new phase which I prefer to call the "Plasmic Era". Plasmas are closely related to electromagnetism, but have actual agency and are "self propagating," though still bound by the rules of electromagnetism. (They are *not* bound by gravity however.)

[@raoulduke8720]

Terrific

[@robertforsythe3280]

Think of your physical body as a house for your soul/spirit. We are children and must dance on the physical body given to us in the spirit kingdom. The Veil is a block to our mind here, Christ gave us something that cannot be measured, seen, heard, Felt or ever thought of by a human mind. Ponder and Learn.

[@traceyedson9652]

I enjoy listening to Dr. Sheldrake. I’m an Orthodox Christian so don’t quite accept his tendency toward “all one.” As he uses deeper ideas from Christianity, it’d be helpful if he had a deeper understanding of some concepts that might both open up vistas as well as discipline or challenge ideas or associations he makes. These often form a basis for further thoughts of his and he risks “proving” an association with the results of that idea rather circularly. An example is the idea in the Ascension that Christ went “up into the sky,” indicated, he says, by the credal “into heaven.” In fact, this localist, geographical & medieval idea narrows the original idea of “the heavens” being God’s realm. Then, if the ancient idea of the cloud were better understood it would clearly be seen as a change of mode in existence into that realm rather than something indicating geographical “up.” The associations through ancient Hebrew poetry & writings with most of the Christian symbols & ideas should prove fascinating to him! Also, in the ideas of a pathway after death, he may find the highly debated and oft-rejected but persistent strain in Orthodox mysticism of “the toll houses” to be interesting. However, it’s universally accepted that the soul is assisted in its post-death joinery by one’s guardian Angel, patron Saint, and, of course, the Mother of God. I’ll continue to enjoy his eye-opening & creative discussions.

[@beachcomberboz2902]

When I heard that DBH is a friend of the Fairies then I realised that I could take him seriously. Fairies resonate very deeply and powerfully with many of us. I myself believe that Cicely Mary Barker proves beyond any doubt that the preparation of Faery is an important stage of our migration to Heaven. Faery takes us out of this world, liberates us. I'm quite sure that such cutting of the ties is the only way we can be reconciled with Mother Earth.

[@robertforsythe3280]

One cannot take anything physical from this physical world when you pass from it. We are spiritual souls having a physical experience Not a physical creature having a spiritual experience. The only thing you can take is what you have learned here. Christ left teachings and the Roman Empire had important teachings removed from it. Read The Gospel of Thomas and The Book of Thomas the contender writings to the perfect.

[@robinstephansengupta9958]

Frankly said, I don’t understand why Rupert gives emphasis to an antique system of beliefs. I expected from Rupert to talk about his theory vs quantum field theory. I don’t understand. Did I miss something? Can someone help me ?

[@monicafontana9588]

Archetypes are connected to his "hypothesis of causative formation". Read the Presence of the past and you'll understand why.

[@robinstephansengupta9958]

@@monicafontana9588 Thank you for your kind reply.

[@stacybigfoot4801]

What are we in?

[@Steve-ul8qb]

A play?

[@samrowbotham8914]

A dream world.

[@mondopinion3777]

I always thought the essential problem with Gnosticism was that is a way of the head, not the heart, like a bride who will only meet her husband in the library. Like sorcery in a way.

[@oudekraal7460]

Whats not to like in this little chat about the edgy stuff that is ever so well hidden under a veil of public beneficence. However talk of fairy like beings deserves another chapter most probably.

[@PaulMuirOrbs]

The low magnetic field is the centre of the kali age the low magnetic feild allows energy into our solar system....hence we go mad thus god dies(whatever that is)

[@jamesyuan369]

“The planets are recorders of the people. The Suns are recorders of the planets. It is, in effect, a chain of recording, such that the individual person's individual experiences are collectively recorded by the planet. Each planet's individual experiences are then recorded by the Sun. Each Sun's individual recordings of each individual planet and each individual being are recorded in a galaxy. Each galaxy is then recorded in a universe. And each universe is then recorded, such that every individual experience is never lost. Which we would illustrate here with the passage in your Bible. It says that not even a sparrow falls from a tree that God does not know. And this is literally true Every single event on every single planet is eventually and ultimately recorded and known through the planetary, solar, galaxy, universal levels. There is no such thing as any event or idea which passes unnoticed.” A dialogue from Dolores Cannon’s Convoluted Universe Book 2. This aligns with Morphic Resonance in which information is recorded into our subconscious, which is also stored on a much larger scale. Also correlates with the Akashic Records and Jung’s Collective Unconscious

[@sebastiangaete2639]

Fascinating discussion, thank you! In my model I suppose the archons are the powers and principalities ruling the six archetypes on the Wheel of Babylon, which would include Mammon and the Machine among many others. The saving power of Christ represents a gnostic flight from the Wheel via the Cross...

[@Vril_Seeker]

Gnosis is knowledge gained by non-sensory input. Earthly Desires keep 'our' drop of absolute consciousness fascinated and trapped in physical matter. The goal is liberation: Complete dis-identification from physical form and the end of suffering. The opposite of oblivion. A merging with the absolute in Non physical immortality.

[@gabrielmills2361]

Such a shame, then, that the Allness etc can only be experienced (or not) while trapped in a hunk of meat. On the other hand, there is the miracle of bringing full awareness into that "prison": such that even physical pain -- sensed as part of an energy field -- is subtly transformed into an intense and vibrant Aliveness. "Pain is inevitable: suffering is optional" (the Buddha). Yup: he was right.

[@ejenkins4711]

That that thinks in me thinks in all men

[@samrowbotham8914]

Paul was a Gnostic and the Gnostics had it right and that is why the church of Rome persecuted them and drove them underground.

[@xoxox1011]

Thanks for this great dialogue,.. but it is all a simulation/Program (according to Bostrom and his followers), this whole "physical universe", regardless of how much we are impressed by some aspects of it. Mind on the level of 'whole', is a transcendent 'user', that manifests itself by creating this 'whatever-it-is-creating' physical universe, is fragmented, and these fragments, with certain level of consciousness (interaction of this 'mind-fragment' and certain information resulting from the Program) are all trapped in this Simulation (linked to various countless morphic-fields databases associated with this Simulation, on many levels through its fragmented holarchy of vehicle-forms) and all suffer to some degree (because the simulation is very disharmonious, and many aspects of it are metaphysically ultimately unjust and/or 'evil'), and some on higher level suffer extremely. The reason is that this Simulation is ruled by demons (archons), with angels however 'allowed' to intervene/'help' under certain 'condition(s)'... Thoughts, as (mental/abstract) forms can be demons' vehicles... Brain (organic form, part of human-form) uses/modifies/generates these abstract/mental forms that are demon-driven, I believe this was David Bohm's view (derrived from 'Thought As a System' concept... "Thought runs you... Thought is the one which controls each one of us..." , so it 's not you running these thoughts, but the other way round, so you actually can be very well 'sitting'' in some demon's or angel's vehicle, while you think these thoughts).... SystemForm... Coding related to various thoughts might be understood as 'procedural' coding (especially the trapping thoughts that are demons' vehicles) of an 'implicate' kind, different than coding related to form(al) ('explicate') aspect of this 'physical universe' . And coding related to some angels' vehicles might be completely unrelated to this simulation, but somehow inserted/transcendent (originating outside of this simulation), since angels actually don't represent Demiuge (creator 'user' Mind), but the Ultimate God. The role of "humanity" is, along with behaving as a Human should (referring to the holarchic level with consciousness of a "human" 'whole' ) to (individually) wake up to the fact that it is all a simulation (actually a "prison", according to Gnostics), and that a "human" is basically a 'robot' (Gurdjieff's view to some degree) that will become a Human ('divine spark' soul-driven) only after exiting this Simulation (if individually deserves to become a Human, while here in the Simulation). Until then the soul (driver of the human-form vehicle) is actually 'dormant' (mostly disabled by some sub-program of the Program, most of the time) , under heuristic 'development' to become a 'spark'

[@jan-martinulvag1962]

The machine is just a mental thing. Everyone has it. Just don't get fooled by it. Live in the heart.

[@jan-martinulvag1962]

Reincarnation is a mistake. Don't do it. Stay in the spiritual realm

[@jan-martinulvag1962]

Jesus can split time and be many places at the same time

[@jan-martinulvag1962]

Fairies are just spirits in the spirit world playing games with us. There are no fairies.

[@mondopinion3777]

Another approach to this question, very wise, is to be seen at What Is Wrong with Gnosticism, by Jonathan Pageau, on KZbin.

[@mondopinion3777]

@@SymbolsPatternsGnosis Wo. I think you just perfectly demonstrated the spirit of Gnosticism.

[@traceyedson9652]

@@SymbolsPatternsGnosis I’m pretty sure caring about being impressed or being impressive is adjacent to Mammon. In orthodox Christianity, any attempt to espouse a condemnation of the body & the material world is addressed under the rubric of “Gnosticism,” along with special secret knowledge for an elite and complex speculative esoterica about non-revealed spiritual systems. If the standard textbook treatment of historical Gnosticism (even its non-existence) needs revision, fine. It doesn’t change the explicit traditional Christian teaching on the goodness of the material world and it’s redemption by an incarnate God. I think many Christians who deal with this rely heavily on Iranaeus’ descriptions of “gnostic” sects in Rome in the 3rd c CE. No doubt the term has become a catch-all that has widened beyond its original (?) intent, and more folk think they understand than do?

[@andrewphoenix3609]

Surely ascendance is more of an internal journey of enlightenment. As yogic traditions point out, christ consciousness is not seperate from us, but is ever present within all of us. Christ is not some dude who lived 2000 years ago, christ is rooted in the pineal gland of all of us, when levels of DMT are high enough, typically achieved through meditation practices or psychadelics, you can then ascend into the kingdom of heaven, a state of enlightenment. My point is that these are not outside us, but within us and I just can't help that feel that the language around religion talks too much in terms of these being seperate from us.

[@krisi7562]

Early Christianity showed better the influence of Oriental - Indian, Zoarastrian, Mani and others - influences, than what it does now.

[@rrosaseconda]

I wish these thinkers would seriously examine Ecofeminist ideas and imagery. It certainly challenges The Machine!

[@mariacelesteconnor8573]

Amen! If we continue to exhume--exclusively--documents, old & new, of patriarchal societies we will not evolve.

[@jlmur54]

@@SymbolsPatternsGnosis That's the problem of being a shallow intellectual.

[@harryanderson7282]

While I generally enjoy sheldrake's discussions, I find him here to be, metaphysically speaking, totally out of his league. That said, anyone interested in learning more about Gnosticism would do well to read Jung's Red Book, as well as the works of Stephen Hoeller.

[@harryanderson7282]

@@SymbolsPatternsGnosis Hail Satan!

[@chrisgmurray3622]

Ha ha! I picture not so much a mobile phone filming jesus ascending, as him being "up-loaded" literally into the "cloud"!

[@alloutofbubblegum9223]

Mind, body, spirit…33.3% each. Live and worship a materialistic, mechanistic life and lose the 33.3% that is the spirit. What are you left with? 66.6%. Hmm.

[@wehsee912]

🌚☄️❤️💫

[@richardwoollaston3650]

Well I will pick up mr vernon on one point at least. Yes there was a steam ‘engine’ invented around 2000 years ago by Hero of Alexandria, but it was unable to power anything other than its own rotation. This rather negative characterisation of the achievements of humanity in the years of the enlightenment and Industrial Age denies the achievements of humanity in developing sufficient prosperity to allow the great improvement in living standards, widespread access to healthcare, and reduction in poverty. God would wish us to use our own capabilities to improve our lot.

[@sarahnade8663]

Yeah, Rupert really does seem kinda salty whenever he starts talking about the accomplishments people have made outside a religious framework.

[@RUDYVOLCANO]

⁰

[@ognjenkabogdan8787]

[@hendrikarqitekt6286]

Sorry, but i think you two are wrong. Gnosticism is what Jezus tought us. The Creator, is within us all. Religion is wrong. Look inside.

[@reccaredi7509]

As fas as I know the Archons (Andromedans) have been kicked out not long ago. Thus 1000 years of peace henceforth. wwg1wga

[@liammccann8763]

Interesting. Permit me to observe that you appear to apply your own interpretation of Scripture without reference to exegesis, chiastic structures and the Fathers of the Church. Isolating one passage of Scripture and disregarding the 'unity of Faith' limits understanding, knowledge and wisdom. Ne timeas.

[@hassandiallo5326]

There is only one creator, ALLAH, and HE is the only one worthy of being worshipped (Quran 51:56); Adam, Noah, Abrahim , Moses, Jesus etc. and Muhammad are prophets; mortal human beings, the creator never dies, and HE does not dwell within HIS creation, however HE knows what is happening everywhere because HE is all knowing, all seeing and all hearing, etc. HE is above the 7 heavens , nothing is above HIM , angels do not fall, Jinns and men do. for more pertaining our noble creator, read Quran 112

[@mariacelesteconnor8573]

God has no gender preference IMHO.

[@MsGiddy]

Fundamentalist views are not useful for developing human consciousness.

[@hassandiallo5326]

@@MsGiddy you don't like computer science fundamentals? It's fun, science is sexier than sodomy, fundamentally speaking

[@hassandiallo5326]

@@mariacelesteconnor8573 God has but ALLAH has not, you can say Goddess.

[@mondopinion3777]

In your statement about angels and jinns, you are quibbling with mere definitions. And the Creator COULD die if He CHOSE TO. Who are you to say what He can or cannot do ?