God Ordains Whatsoever Comes to Pass

Belief in the absolute sovereignty of God doesn’t separate Calvinists from Arminians-it separates theists from atheists. In this brief clip, R.C. Sproul proclaims a truth that every Christian should embrace.
Transcript: www.ligonier.org/blog/god-orda...
Message: www.ligonier.org/learn/series/...

[@tddamits]

I'm so glad RC SPROUL is on the KZbin machine

[@rredhawk]

What makes this concept so hard to accept is that God almost always uses external means to accomplish his will rather than to act directly (miraculously). My first encounter with this concept, and still probably one of the best explanations is Genesis 50:20, but there are many other examples in God's word explaining his complete control of the affairs of people and the universe.

[@tommasolombardi3520]

I thank God for raising up this man. God has thought me so much through him.

[@rhondae8222]

Praise God (Christ) for the biblical teachings of the late Dr. R.C. Sproul😊

[@CanIbeWithThee]

Absolutely beautiful

[@Mario_1611]

The Confession reads "Of God's Eternal Decree I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; *yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established*." If God doesn't ordain whatsoever comes to pass, he is not God. Even if he soverignly decrees that mankind should be free to do something evil it still means he ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Thus if you don't believe the statement is true you don't believe in God. If he allows it he passively ordains that that thing should be. Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Isiah 46:9-11

[@minisight2000]

Thanks for that comment!

[@allenmorgan4309]

The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil. Proverbs 16:4 KJV That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord , and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Isaiah 45:6‭-‬7 KJV Even by simply using logical reasoning you can conclude that God is ultimately the doer of all things. If we believe that God is everywhere and there is no where He isn't, if we believe that God is all knowing and there isn't anything unknown to Him and if we believe that God is all powerful and there is nothing impossible for Him then we must conclude that God is sovereign and there is nothing that happens apart from His will. In the New Testament it mentions God being all in all, in Mark 12nthe scribe tells Jesus there is none else besides God and Jesus tells the scribe he is not far from the kingdom. Paul teaches that we are all predestined and that God is the potter and we are the clay and from one lump he makes some for honor and others for dishonor. He set the kingdom of Egypt up and led Israel tonEgyot to become slaves in order to set them free by the hand of Moses. Free will is an illusion, ultimately God is the only one that does anything. God wrote a book and we are all characters on the pages of his story. People question and ask why does he do this or that if these things are true. We must all trust that God works all things according to His counsel, for His own good purposes and that ultimately everything works towards the benefit of all.

[@Android-ds9ie]

@@allenmorgan4309 what do you mean by benefit of all

[@jamesmc04]

The *bolded passage* is essential. God is in no sense the Author of unrighteousness. All evil actions are within God’s All-ruling Providence - but their wrongness is an affront to God’s Righteousness: those who do what is unrighteous, are not acting in accord with God’s Righteousness. The Crucifixion is the cardinal example of sinful human wills freely carrying out God’s Righteous Purpose, and being sinful even so. God is the Author of His Righteous Purpose - not of the sins and evil by which men serve that Purpose by sinning. God’s ordination of evil deeds is not Divine pleasure in them, but a giving them a place in His government of creatures. God can use even sin & wickedness to carry out His Will, as Romans 8.28 implies. God cannot be overcome by our sinfulness. And that is surely good news.

[@centurion1314]

There is nothing in the WHOLE universe that is out of God's reach. He is above all and He does what He pleases according to His own sovereign will.

[@JoseSanchez0795]

Glory to the Lamb of God!!!

[@williamdelacruz9434]

That statement is without a Bible verse, so it’s a product of man’s philosophy. Have read the story of David who went to the city of Keilah, how God knew that Saul would go to that city and how he knew that the city would turn David to Saul. It did not happen. Think of that.

[@joshuaodey3047]

There are Bible verses that implies this. You have to understand what you are implying by saying what you saying you are implying that God has little to no sovereignty over His created universe. If so God cannot be God and we then have a big big problem. If you read the book of Job, Prob 16:33, Eph 1:11 you will see that these books and verse makes it clear that God or gains whatever comes to pass. He can do so in both an active and passive way. Ever Isaiah 46 makes it clear that the statement God ordained whatsoever comes to pass clear.

[@thespurge]

It's funny because RC really looks like Lieutenant Columbo

[@TheSacredlizzy]

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@aliced7505]

He sure had the gestures nailed.

[@judyl.761]

I wish I could hear this entire teaching.

[@coltonbrewer6632]

You can, it is on Amazon Prime video. Look up Ligonier Ministries then find Chosen By God featuring R.C. Sproul. It has 6 episodes and I'm fairly certain it is episode #2 that has this in complete. I just watched the series a couple of weeks ago. God bless!

[@caseymack6088]

It’s on KZbin as well

[@damianwhite504]

Doc Sproul is a champion of a dude and a beautiful bro and a king of speaking word things

[@conanlabiche]

as always, rc sproul on point. thank you Lord for rc sproul

[@v42dyk36]

we Miss RC do we? Same as we like him Excited to See the Savior Jesus ❤️

[@rangerj3301]

If even one event happens, which God did not command and or decree, then Sproul’s view of sovereignty is not true, yet God is no less sovereign. Jeremiah 19:4-5 (ESV) “Because the people have forsaken me and have profaned this place by making offerings in it to other gods whom neither they nor their fathers nor the kings of Judah have known; and because they have filled this place with the blood of innocents, and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, which I DID NOT COMMAND OR DECREE, NOR DID IT COME INTO MY MIND-“ A. W. Tozer writes: “God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not thereby countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, 'What doest thou?' Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon His creatures. He would be afraid to do so.” ~ A. W. Tozer; The Knowledge of the Holy

[@repentandfollowjesus3474]

Hey brother. Thanks. I try to understand Gods sovereingnty and cant wrap my mind around it. Like in 2020 the highest cause of death was abortion: 42million babys killed in the womb.. awful awful awful!! And then i must think that God ordained this?? I am confused and miserable because of this thought

[@evanu6579]

@@repentandfollowjesus3474 Hey brother, there are a lot of false doctrines out there. Calvinism has so many contradictions and biblical issues, I can assure you that it does not represent who God is. I would be happy to have a discussion with you if you would like. I believed the doctrine for a period in my life as well. It completely changed my view of God in a very negative way. I went from thinking that He wanted people saved more than I did as I wept over people’s salvation. Once I was convinced of Calvinism then it was like He wanted them damned. Most people are going to hell because that’s His plan for them and I’m weeping and pleading with them in vain. It’s impossible to convince 99% of the people I was sharing the gospel with and the 1% would believe no matter what. Since then I’ve read my Bible a lot and studied this doctrine in depth. I no longer believe it’s true. Let me know if I can help. God bless.

[@aletheia8054]

Of course, it did not come into Gods mind to tell them to do that. But back in Deuteronomy he said they would.

[@calebcrawford2520]

Amen. Calvinism is a horrible view of God that destroys His character and power. If God has to predetermine everything to get His way, He really isn't all powerful if you think about it. Theistic determinism is a heresy. I'm a former Calvinist, btw.

[@rangerj3301]

@@repentandfollowjesus3474 You have an ethically similar set of circumstances in Jeremiah 19:4-5 to which God says, essentially, don’t blame that on me.

[@evangelistangelbowman3122]

God's will is not always done.

[@TwitchyThelogian]

His prescriptive will is not always done however His decreedive will is.

[@evanu6579]

@@TwitchyThelogian God doesn’t decree everything.

[@eddiesprain8243]

​​@@TwitchyThelogiano you say he decrees things contrary to his precepts? Sounds like a bipolar god who doesn't really want people to obey his statutes.

[@robertholmes12]

This clip was cut a little short I think. There still some argumentation left in the explanation of the sovereignty of God.

[@34Packardphaeton]

Though I have always been impressed with R. C. Sproul and his great teaching ability, I have to wonder WHY he starts off this video clip.. referencing the Westminster Confession -- which is not Scripture. .. Would it not be more impressive if he used a Scriptural reference instead?

[@johnmcdonald4553]

Well, because what he's teaching ISN'T IN SCRIPTURE.

[@34Packardphaeton]

There are two classes of things 'which come to pass'. There are those which are without any human influence... "acts of God". I can believe God's total sovereignty for such class. Yet I confess that it's much, much harder for me to believe that God "ordains whatsoever comes to pass".. for things in which human acts and influence are unmistakable. THESE things are much harder for me to accept.... though I do not actively reject them out-of-hand. It's hard for me.. for human action(s) to be used to blame a holy, perfect God. I myself believe in God's sovereignty, but I will not blame Him.. for things which were affected by human action, often error.

[@douglasmcnay644]

Think of it in this way: just like Joseph says that while his brothers meant to sell him into slavery for sinful means, God decreed it because of the good that Joseph would accomplish in His name in the future by saving Egypt and the surrounding lands from famine. It's not necessarily the action that is sinful, but the motive. God's motive for Joseph's imprisonment was pure, while his brother's were not. Same with the Assyrians pillaging Israel. The Assyrians were God's tool of judgment on Israel, but then He judges Assyria. He used their natural lusts as His instrument, but then punishes them for having them. But His motive was pure.

[@jacoboburke5821]

If God allows a human to commit a crime or sin, and God does not intervene, despite having full knowledge and control over that human's fate and very existence, then God is ordaining it to come to pass.

[@DMilbury]

⁠@@jacoboburke5821if you see something about to happen and it is within your power to stop it, but for whatever reason choose not to, did you ordain that event to come to pass?

[@blackpatriot3]

RCeeeezzzy!!!!

[@JohnHanly]

Oh dear! That's a heck of a teaser! For anyone who doesn't like the theological idea presented here, and before you condemn Dr Sproul as a heretic or blasphemer, make sure to listen to the whole lecture as referenced above...

[@roberttrevino62800]

Even this short clip is 100% accurate. No extra content needed

[@Bobepc]

The Westminster Confession is not the Word of God and adherence to it is totally optional. In this case I completely reject that flawed statement in the confession and Sproul's flawed conclusion of it. His statement about that making someone an atheist is so laughably ridiculous it makes me thankful to have not gotten duped and locked into that man made system of theology.

[@KeithThompson52]

powerful truth!

[@lynngalyon5687]

I have found that most people (professed Christians) strongly believe in the total sovereignty of God as long as it is Qualified, Quantified and Questionable.....

[@ParkerRRea]

Not gonna lie, I'm a little puzzled at the leap here; maybe he defines "sovereignty" differently than I do and thus concludes God can't be God unless he meticulously controls everything? I always understood sovereignty to mean the right to do or control anything (i.e being in charge), not necessarily the active doing or controlling of everything (i.e. being in deterministic control).

[@Mario_1611]

The Confession reads "Of God's Eternal Decree I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; *yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established*." If God doesn't ordain whatsoever comes to pass, he is not God. Even if he soverignly decrees that mankind should be free to do something evil it still means he ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Thus if you don't believe the statement is true you don't believe in God. If he allows it he passively ordains that that thing should be. Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Isiah 46:9-11

[@bobbyadkins6983]

Arkerpay, you are correct. Calvinism is pure blasphemy to say the least. Don't let them confuse you.

[@brettanthony3127]

God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused - not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue. Those who see that it is impossible to disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil still attempt to distance God from evil by suggesting that God merely "permits" evil, and that he does not cause it. However, since the Bible itself states that God actively decrees and causes everything, and that nothing can exist or happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something - nothing happens by God’s mere permission. In fact, when it comes to ontology, "God’s permission" is an unintelligible term.

[@oron61]

@@Mario_1611 So God has decided the end of all things. Who says he decided the route we take? In order for God's sovereignty to be complete over every quantum in the universe, you need to almost embrace occasionalism rather than determinism, but for sin not be by his hand, it means that instead of pushing us to sin, we are rather his wind-up toys, "freely" rolling into the fireplace. Compatibilism means our wills are fixed, but freely followed, not freely made up. Sin is not God's will, therefore Sin is now defined as executing God's counsel against his own Will. Justice is now the status of being held responsible for an act of God's agency against hos will.

[@douglasmcnay644]

@@bobbyadkins6983 Absolutely 0 arguments given.

[@johnbeckerink8930]

God is in charge of the universe but He does control everybody. His will is not always being done on earth as it is in heaven, not yet. Man has choices all through the Bible.

[@TrueLifeAdventures]

How he defines sovereign is how he's able to uphold this belief. Whatever. Besides, you don't have to hold to the Westminister or any other confession, unless you put as much stock in them as you do Scripture. I don't and I feel just fine. And if RC is right, then I feel this way because God ordained me to.

[@spiroclimb2523]

And then God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

[@stefaniebollinger4884]

In light of this belief about sovereignty, can anyone explain why God then says that Israel is going against his will such as in one place where they set up rulers he says "not by me" and also the passage below? Just curious if sovereignity is misunderstood or something is lost in translation in these passages??? Jeremiah 32:35 35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molek, though I never commanded-nor did it enter my mind-that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

[@stefaniebollinger4884]

That other verse I mentioned earlier is "Hosea 8:4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off."

[@stefaniebollinger4884]

Sorry, got one more from NT- Hebrews 2:8 You have put all things in subjection under his feet.” For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him. I'm thinking at this point sovereignty means he is over all things and judges all things not DOES all things. Free will seems apparent?

[@evanu6579]

What Sproul said is completely false. It’s not a theist position it’s a reformed position. You make good points that refute what he said. There are many others. God ordering things to happen would mean every sinful act was directed by Him. Calvinism is sick.

[@aletheia8054]

@Evan U God said he caused bad things to happen. Very bad things.

[@Leviticus-zb7cl]

You are right in noticing this. Look also at Jeremiah 18 and then read Romans 9 in that context. Leighton Flowers is a good resource.. " If at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,and if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I intended to do to it.And if at any time I declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it, and if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will relent of the good that I had intended to do to it. Now, therefore, say to the men of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem: ‘Thus says the LORD, Behold, I am shaping disaster against you and devising a plan against you. Return, every one from his evil way, and amend your ways and your deeds.’"

[@dw6528]

*UNDERSTANDING THE SUBTLE SEMANTICS OF CALVINISM* It is critical to understand the term "Fore-ordain" for the Calvinist - is loaded with a meaning which is unique to Calvinism alone. The term "Fore-Ordain" in Calvinism entails the meticulous predestination of everything that comes to pass - and in every part. There is no such thing as an impulse within the human brain that is not FIXED by infallible decree - to infallibly come to pass at the exact moment in time - it is decreed to infallibly come to pass. And humans are given NO CHOICE in the matter of that which is decreed to infallibly come to pass. The NON-Calvinist conception of "Fore-ordain" entails the "Fore-Ordaining" of multiple options such as [BE] vs [NOT BE] and [DO] vs [NOT DO] made available to the creature - and also the LIBERTY granted to the creature of choosing between one option vs the other. Contrary to that - the Calvinist conception of "Fore-ordain" entails a divine choice for whatsoever will come to pass - being made at the foundation of the world before creatures are created. That divine choice entails a SELECTION of whatsoever will come to pass at every nano-second in time and in every part - and a REJECTION of all alternatives to that which was selected. Thus - for every human event - and every human impulse - there is never granted more than *ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN* option - immutably FIXED at the foundation of the world - to infallibly come to pass. All ALTERNATIVES to that which was infallibly selected - are infallibly rejected and are therefore not granted existence. Thus - with Adam in the garden 1) It was infallibly and immutably selected that Adam would infallibly eat the fruit at TIME-T 2) All alternatives are infallibly rejected Thus only *ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN* option was granted existence. Adam would infallibly eat the fruit at TIME-T Adam eating the fruit at TIME-T was granted existence. Adam was granted "Permission" to eat the fruit at TIME-T NO ALTERNATIVE from that which was decreed was granted existence. Thus NO ALTERNATIVE option was granted to Adam That is what makes the Calvinist conception of "Fore-ordain" unique to Calvinism and Calvinism alone.

[@johnmcdonald4553]

Well, there are pagan theosophies that hold to the same definition, if that tells you anything.

[@barbaud5920]

Think about it. does GOD make true believers sin today. really

[@34Packardphaeton]

.. But could it be.. that God is not concerned with inconsequential things... which, by definition, do not affect or even approach those things which God sovereignly ordains. And, if God is not concerned with trivialities, such as what color socks I'm wearing today, then I say that God is totally sovereign... but does not concern Himself with things that are inconsequential. Does God care which flavor of ice cream that I may choose to eat later today, for example? It surely does not seem so... since the flavor I choose (barring the unlikely possible physical reaction to a given flavor) does not affect God's purposes.... in my judgment, at least. I wonder what he would say to this . . .

[@brettanthony3127]

God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused - not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue. Those who see that it is impossible to disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil still attempt to distance God from evil by suggesting that God merely "permits" evil, and that he does not cause it. However, since the Bible itself states that God actively decrees and causes everything, and that nothing can exist or happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something - nothing happens by God’s mere permission. In fact, when it comes to ontology, "God’s permission" is an unintelligible term.

[@34Packardphaeton]

@@brettanthony3127 .. Yours is a thoughtful reply.

[@jayahladas692]

The Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment would be farces if "free will to choose" was not true. Think on these things:. how could souls be judged and held responsible if they were predestined without free will? Is that just?.

[@aletheia8054]

"Vessels of wrath fitted for destruction" are not predestined. They are "ordained for condemnation".

[@jayahladas692]

@@aletheia8054 OK, they're condemned already. So then what determines how much punishment "according to their deeds" do they get? The amount of bad free will choices they made, which they've Always had, or they could just say "not my fault" like Geraldine used to say "the devil made me do it"

[@aletheia8054]

@@jayahladas692 All I know is what the Bible says. There are none that do good. So there are no good deeds.

[@vivienetiu7935]

R C Sproul is quite the handsome man of God

[@jeanospipieso9175]

What the Bible says: 1John 2:15-16 Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. for all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. Jeremiah 19:4-5 Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent and have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as burnt offerings to Baal, a thing which I never commanded or spoke of, nor did it ever enter My mind; It is clear from the Scriptures that God DID NOT ORDAIN whatsoever comes to pass. Sproul was wrong.

[@rayjacobs1146]

RC...one of my favorite Bible teachers. But, me...with my pee-brain, can't seem to figure this out!

[@Mario_1611]

The Confession reads "Of God's Eternal Decree I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; *yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established*." If God doesn't ordain whatsoever comes to pass, he is not God. Even if he soverignly decrees that mankind should be free to do something evil it still means he ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Thus if you don't believe the statement is true you don't believe in God. If he allows it he passively ordains that that thing should be. Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Isiah 46:9-11

[@rayjacobs1146]

Brother Busby, I'm with you, and I believe this confession...I just want to be able to grasp it. It's so deep...by the way, one post is enough.

[@yobabybubba]

Ray Jacobs Indeed. 1 post is enough.

[@rayjacobs1146]

Mr. YOBABYBUBBA, thanks. Your picture reminds me of an uncle of mine...he's doing time at Corcoran Prison, haha...just kidding bro! Later.

[@Mario_1611]

Ray Jacobs You're welcome, Bro.

[@somebody71172]

He was so handsome and godly.

[@rhondae8222]

Agreed! 😊

[@repentandfollowjesus3474]

So the rape of a child is ordained by God? This is not to mock Gpd or anything i just try to understand with a extreme example. Can someone pls help

[@5points7019]

Consider that when these horrifying things take place that it is possible that its for further judgment and wrath from God being brought on the wicked. That cup is being filled drop by drop daily and it must be getting close to full by now.

[@billyr9162]

@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC No. God is the author. The author of the screen play is not the actor doing the acting in the play. He is the determiner of what the actors do.

[@evanu6579]

@@billyr9162 Not just the author but the puppet master. He would have to be directing man’s thoughts and desires to line up with the deeds He ordained them to do. Man would just be meat puppets where even our senses and desires are externally given to us. Essentially, total depravity would be false as well since God would have just ordained a set of unfavourable actions and thoughts for one to do for a period of their life until the time when it was ordained for them to believe a particular thing in which God ordained a different set of acts which were more favourable. Do you believe in total depravity? Total inability for all people I’m sure since we’re slaves. Not slaves to sin but slaves to whatever was ordained for us to do. Let me know your thoughts Billy. Nice to be able to talk to you again. It’s been a while.

[@aletheia8054]

@Evan U The Bible is not subject to human logic. Humans are subject to Gods logic. Job called God a despot. So puppet master or whatever is fine. That’s just how God operates.

[@evanu6579]

@@aletheia8054 So I wrote what I was ordained to write. So did Paul and Peter and John. So did Muhammad and Joseph Smith in the name of God. So what makes one “Holy book” true over another when all men are moved by God to write whatever is written? What value is the Holy Spirit in transforming a person if we’re all just puppets? Most importantly, what scripture do you have to take such a ridiculous position?

[@MrChristK]

When Sproul speaks of "any sense in which what occurs is ordained by God", that can mean different things, which he then fails to specify. It could mean, among other things, either a) God is sovereign over all creation and all the happenings in the world, including all the choices of God's creatures are totally determined by God, and free will is an illusion, or b) that God is sovereign over all creation, and sovereignly allows his creatures agency and responsibility, seeing all power and authority and life and freedom are derived from Him only - the traditionalist position. So don't muddy your definitions and try to sneak Calvinism into theism - it's not difficult to see through.

[@brettanthony3127]

God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused - not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue. Those who see that it is impossible to disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil still attempt to distance God from evil by suggesting that God merely "permits" evil, and that he does not cause it. However, since the Bible itself states that God actively decrees and causes everything, and that nothing can exist or happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something - nothing happens by God’s mere permission. In fact, when it comes to ontology, "God’s permission" is an unintelligible term.

[@bingabongavitalonga6788]

@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC Fair enough. I still take issue with what Calvinists would deem the high view of God's sovereignty, saying that if He does not control everything to finest detail he is not sovereign at all. Is it not also sovereign to be the Creator and Upholder of the universe and all life, granting every breath and allowing every decision for good or ill? Rhetorical question, but moot, since the bible affirms both free will and God's sovereignty. How the two are reconciled is the question. Calvinism seems to take the "reverent" route in placing all emphasis on God's sovereignty, and interprets all else through this lens. The repeated affirmation in scripture on man's free will is downplayed in deference to this idea, and the result is a skewed image of God and His relationship to man. I have a lot of respect for Sproul when he's not talking about Calvinism, btw. He was the one who finally gave me some clarity on eschatology, by listening to what the bible actually says.

[@ZambianZebras]

Why does Jesus pray your will be done on earth as it is in heaven? Maybe sin is against the will of God....not ordained by Him.

[@ak6781fan]

The 30 percent discrepancy is because there is a difference between Ordain and Allow. All that is, is because GOD allows it.

[@Mario_1611]

The Confession reads "Of God's Eternal Decree I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; *yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established*." If God doesn't ordain whatsoever comes to pass, he is not God. Even if he soverignly decrees that mankind should be free to do something evil it still means he ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Thus if you don't believe the statement is true you don't believe in God. If he allows it he passively ordains that that thing should be. Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, 10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,’ 11 Calling a bird of prey from the east, The man who executes My counsel, from a far country. Indeed I have spoken it; I will also bring it to pass. I have purposed it; I will also do it. Isiah 46:9-11

[@mr.e1220]

He doesn't "allow" anything. That means something is outside of his knowledge or his will. God does not passively allow, he ordains everything. Good n bad. No such thing as free will

[@dawsonmurray4188]

Mr. C (just so you know, I’m not saying this to be snarky or rude. The comment section is usually militant, I’m not trying to be.) No such thing as free will? Question were you free to type out this response? And if you respond or not, where you free to make those decisions? And do I have some degree of freedom to ask you these questions? As well as to correct some of the spelling mistakes as I was typing this out? If no, then how could I be responsible for asking those questions and correcting my poor grammar mistakes?

[@brettanthony3127]

God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused - not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue. Those who see that it is impossible to disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil still attempt to distance God from evil by suggesting that God merely "permits" evil, and that he does not cause it. However, since the Bible itself states that God actively decrees and causes everything, and that nothing can exist or happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something - nothing happens by God’s mere permission. In fact, when it comes to ontology, "God’s permission" is an unintelligible term.

[@mcmobley1]

Ordains whatsoever comes to pass - Only two ways to view God's sovereignty (if you believe God knows all things past/present/future). You can either say that God, before He created the creation - A. Looked down the corridors of time and "learned" (which means he is not omniscient/all knowing) every decision that "free will" creatures would make OR B. That God did, by HIS OWN FREE WILL ordain whatsoever would come to pass. Now, either way - God still ordained it. Because if God knew everything that would happen before He created, He still chose to make that happen. So, either way God has ordained it however; God ordained as a part of His ordination - that His creatures would be give volitional ability to choose right or wrong and that God would use either of those choices in order to make known His manifest glory to the creatures and demonstrate His absolute sovereign power by using those evil choices in order to bring about an ultimate good....(i.e. God can use fire to water the fields, no matter how much man intends that they burn). This is made manifest throughout the scripture has we have God absolutely appalled and despising evil and condemning it by His very nature, yet proclaiming that He has ordained that evil would come to pass in order to demonstrate His holiness and wrath against evil, while simultaneously trumping over that evil. We are in trouble with God because we choose to do evil against His command not to do so, but God's very nature is to overcome evil by His manifested love for those who run to Him - those to which He chose to make Himself known.

[@brettanthony3127]

God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused - not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue. Those who see that it is impossible to disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil still attempt to distance God from evil by suggesting that God merely "permits" evil, and that he does not cause it. However, since the Bible itself states that God actively decrees and causes everything, and that nothing can exist or happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something - nothing happens by God’s mere permission. In fact, when it comes to ontology, "God’s permission" is an unintelligible term.

[@jamesmc04]

God ordains all evils, as well as all goods. That is, God has complete control of all events, and gives them, whether good or evil, a place in His Purpose. Ordination of an event is not endorsement of it. God ordained that the Titanic should sink - saying that, is vastly different from saying that God wanted to destroy those on board. That would mean attributing ill-will to God, which is contrary to God’s Holy and Gracious & Righteous character. All that “God ordained X to happen” means, is, that 1. God, the Holy, Righteous, Good Creator of all things that exist 2. carries out His Purpose in the universe He has created 3. by using all and everyone of His creatures 4. whether they are, or intend, or do, good or evil; 5. So that whatever they may be or intend or do, whether good or evil, 6. His Will is fully carried out by whatever they may do, be, intend, or will. Joseph’s brothers intended evil to Joseph. God used their hatred of Joseph to carry out His own Purpose for Joseph, which was, that Joseph should be very highly honoured by Pharaoh: so as to be given authority and power to save Egypt and his brothers from famine. The intention of Joseph’s brothers toward Joseph was evil. God’s Intention for Joseph, his brothers, and Egypt, was good. It was part of God’s larger Purpose, for Israel, and for all mankind, that the sinful hatred of the brothers for Joseph should, despite their evil intentions, carry out God’s Good and Gracious Intention. They did their will - and God acted through their wills & intentions & actions to carry out His Will. In no way was God the Author of their hatred and ill-will. Their sins remain theirs alone. The point is, that God is so great in Power, Wisdom and Goodness, that no sin or other evil can possibly get the better of His Purpose. God is so undefeatable, so endlessly Wise and Gracious, that He can do His Will even by means of the greatest of sins. Case in point: the Crucifixion - God used the supreme sin of the Crucifixion of God, to carry out the greatest act of Salvation by God. Sinful man had one purpose - the Holy and Good God had a very different Purpose, and used for good what men meant for evil. God is not a limited God, who can act through creatures only if they are sinless; God is a God of Infinite Goodness, Wisdom and Power, Who can use *anything* & *anyone* to do His Will.

[@brettanthony3127]

God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused - not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue. Those who see that it is impossible to disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil still attempt to distance God from evil by suggesting that God merely "permits" evil, and that he does not cause it. However, since the Bible itself states that God actively decrees and causes everything, and that nothing can exist or happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something - nothing happens by God’s mere permission. In fact, when it comes to ontology, "God’s permission" is an unintelligible term.

[@andrewmorgensen326]

Something happening outside of God's ordination DOES NOT mean it also must happen outside God's Sovereignty. Sproul is seriously misleading others by teaching this. A king is still sovereign over his land and people while allowing them to make descisions and operate without his dictation on all matters.

[@andrewmorgensen326]

@Mimi M you are totally correct. God is a different category from man. I never made the claim that He was of the same as man. My analogy doesn't show God to be the same as man. It shows that sovereignty does not mandate omnicausal determinism. Sproul's mistake is not in asserting God as sovereign, or asserting that he ordains whatsoever comes to pass. Sproul's mistake is thinking "that God ordians" means "God causally determins all things." Sproul's other two major mistakes are saying that "this view of God causally determining all things is not unique to Calvinism,.or presbyterianism, or Reformed Theology". He simply is just wrong in saying that..for it is unique to these branches of Christianity. And Sproul is wrong in saying "if you don't believe this statement[that God causally determines all things] then you are an atheist." If that were true then virtually every single early Christian Apostle and Christian leader was an atheist., The vast majority of Christians through out time are atheists, all other classical Christian denominations are atheists. Sproul is misleading , bc he assumes that God's sovereignty means God is the dictator of all things. God is sovereign but he does not hold absolute omnicausal determination of all things. To subtly assert this as Sproul does is misleading. "God concurs with the effect, but not the defect of our actions" (Thomas Aquinas SCG 3.77) The Christian Tradition has fought long and hard againt the idea that the created order and mankind is created profoundly defective, or that it is sinful simply by existing. (Tertullian Against Marcion 1.2-23; Athanasius Incarnation of the Word 43, Cyril Catech. Lecture 2.1. John of Damascus OF 2.24, 25. etc.) Sin is not caused by God. Sin is our making not God's. Sin is caused by skewed human freedom.

[@andrewmorgensen326]

@KTTGHMTJWYCBLAC are your comments directed towards my statement or towards Mimi M?

[@Factoreffectsmedia]

Junk

[@Christo-doulou]

Then God is the author of SIN!

[@evanu6579]

What a wicked, wicked doctrine. Woe to him who speaks such blasphemy against the God of heaven and earth!

[@justaman8329]

This philosophy requires God be the author of evil, and wills each evil act/thought to come to pass. What a nasty portrayal of God ... and unbiblical. God knows what will come to pass, he doesn't ordain and/or cause it

[@34Packardphaeton]

... Did not God say that ".. I bring calamity"? Of course, I am not equating calamity with evil.... but neither do I subscribe to the claim that God must be the author of evil. "God is too pure to look upon evil"... thus, how could He be the author of it?

[@NnannaO]

Ephesians 1:4 says that God predestined believers to be conformed to the image of Christ before the foundation of the earth. That means that in the reality God created, He knew that Adam and Eve would sin, but He still made it in such a way that they could. Also, Him predestining people before the earth was even created means that by God's creation, the fall was guaranteed to happen

[@brettanthony3127]

God controls everything that exists and everything that happens. There is not one thing that exists or that happens that he has not decreed and caused - not even a single thought in the mind of man. Since this is true, it follows that God has decreed and caused the existence of evil. He has not merely permitted it, because nothing can originate or happen apart from his will and power. Since no creature can make free or independent decisions, evil could never have started unless God decreed and caused it, and it cannot continue for one moment longer without God’s will for it to continue or without God’s power actively causing it to continue. Those who see that it is impossible to disassociate God from the origination and continuation of evil still attempt to distance God from evil by suggesting that God merely "permits" evil, and that he does not cause it. However, since the Bible itself states that God actively decrees and causes everything, and that nothing can exist or happen apart from his will and power, it makes no sense to say that he merely permits something - nothing happens by God’s mere permission. In fact, when it comes to ontology, "God’s permission" is an unintelligible term.

[@DavidEmailman]

This teachings is absolutely asinine and totally false! And RC Sproul with his education of all people should know that!

[@glassworks4850]

Why is man still responsible even though God is sovereign? 

First, we must understand that the people's heart have turned to evil, wilfully, the moment it received the knowledge of good and evil. From the point of Adam's fall, there was only wickedness of man; and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually (Gen 6:5; Universal truth). Which is already worthy of God's eternal judgment. But there is a purpose of Salvation (Gen. 3:15) through a promised seed. Now where does the Good/Godly People like Noah, Abraham, Jacob, Moses come from if ALL are EVIL? The answer: GOD in His grace Chose some people (in time) from the UNREGENERATE/Ungodly world and set them apart, cleansed them, regenerated them and anointed them to do His will (Isaiah 43). His will is for the Messiah to Come as promised in Genesis 3:15 out of this group of people that He had Chosen (Elect). So am I saying that God is only sovereign among the Elect? What about the non-elect? We must understand that the evil of man is always under God's control (in restriction or permission). He will accomplish His will using both His Elect people and the Ungodly/unregenerate people (Isaiah 14:24-27; Proverbs 21:1). So again, why is Man responsible if the LORD is SOVEREIGN, it's because He knows what's in the hearts of all unregenerate men; EVIL. How does God use evil for his purposes i.e. bring out the Messiah out of the Elect people. SIMPLE: He "Carries out" the desires of man and He Permits/Limits their actions to perfectly reach the ends that He intended from the beginning. Both Unregenerate/ungodly and Elect people cannot do much evil or much good, respectively, to frustrate God's plans (Isaiah 14:24-27; Isaiah 25:1; Numbers 23:19; Isaiah 43:13; Jeremiah 10:23; Proverbs 16:9; Proverbs 19:21; Proverbs 20:24; Isaiah 41:4; Isaiah 46:10; Psalms 33:11) Where else can we see the Sovereignty of God in scripture? In Gen. 15 God declared to Abram that His people will be enslaved (v.13) in Egypt. But God will judge their oppressors (v.14). God used Assyria to judge Israel, but after that was finished, Assyria was also judged by God because of their pride and wickedness (Isaiah 10). GOD CARRIED OUT and REVEALED what's in our hearts. So Man is RESPONSIBLE. Disobedience and rebellion were carried out from the disobedient/rebellious heart of man. Evil thoughts and deeds were carried out from an evil heart of man. Rape and adultery were carried out from a lustful heart of man. You meant it for evil, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result (Genesis 50:20). 

This very true statement applies even in the case of what we call sinful acts. Like Tamar disguising herself as a prostitute, and tricking Judah to impregnate her with a twin (Perez and Zerah). In similar case, David committed adultery with Bathsheba and had a son (Solomon). Both sinful acts meant for evil, and both are responsible for the sin committed. But God meant it for good. As both of these women are part of the Messianic Genealogy. That’s the Sovereignty of God at work.