4 Reasons the Great Apostasy is a FALSE Doctrine of Mormonism

[@byonnoyb]

After years of placing material in front of my husband, he finally left Mormonism...Praise God!

[@robmckay5421]

Long before Joseph Smith was born an Arab 1400 ago named Mohhamad taught Christianity had fallen away into apostacy.

[@AllTheseCreatures]

God has the power to preserve His word and He has not forsaken the bride He promised to protect. He always makes a way.

[@GLM]

Amen! God is ABLE to do what He said He would.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@AllTheseCreatures The bride if Christ is spoken of in Rev. chapter 12, and it states that she is driven in the wilderness (no public ministry for 1260 days (years, as these are prophetic days). Also, the 13th chapter of Rev. states this same period (42 months, 1260 days, or 1260 years when the beast (kingdom) made war with the SAINTS and OVERCAME them (for this period only - see Clarke's Commentary (non Mormon)!

[@markwellsfry9843]

​​@@GeorgeDemetz You make the error of assuming 1260 days= 1260 years. It could just be 1260 days, as plainly spoken. When the Prophets said that Judah would be captive to Babylon for 70 years... guess what? They were captive for 70 years, before a remnant started to return. 2) 1260 does not equal 1700, assuming that the Apostle/Disciple John lived to 100 A.D.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@markwellsfry9843 No, you need to study theology more. Read Clarke's commentary. There was a gradual falling away which is mentioned a number of times in the scriptures, but it wasnt universal until the time of the Lombard invasion of Rome around 570 AD, and then came the great restitution of all things spoken of by many prophets, including the church in 1830, 1260 years later. Also, read the JST where the translation even reads 1260/years.

[@AllTheseCreatures]

@@GeorgeDemetz I'm not going to reject an observation out of hand by a Mormon if it's biblicaly sound (by that I mean consistent). The kingdom of the beast overcoming, ruling, conquering does not mean annihilation, it means oppression. That is why it is described as tribulation (a form of torture), much like what present day Christians are suffering in various countries that imprison, execute, oppressively tax, confiscate, marginalize . . . The bride IS a consistent image in the bible from the beginning to the end. She isn't just found in Revelation. You see her contrasted with THE ADULTRESS, the unfaithful bride, in the prophets (Ezekiel 16 and Hosea are good examples of this imagery). James brings this theme to the fore in chapter 4 when he says, "You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God." God preserved a remnant in every instance He brought judgement to His people. The remnant is the bride. The faithful will pass through tribulation and will be preserved (as they always have). The grain is gathered into the barn. There is only one bride, one marriage in heaven, between Christ and His redeemed. That is the theme Revelation is picking up on. The purpose of Revelation is to be a revelation of Jesus to His saints in tribulation, this was touched on briefly in the video, as at the beginning of the book, the character and challenges of the bride is addressed in seven ways.

[@Qiseeker]

Someone else may have mentioned this, but Mormons believe that John the Beloved and the Three Nephites have remained on the Earth and would not their presence alone suggest that all truth and authority was not lost? As missionaries we used to teach that all truth was lost and corrupted and required a restoration, but conveniently failed to remember those four individuals who we thought were left on the Earth who were Christ’s direct disciples. Such a contradictory set of beliefs. Love the podcast! We are soon to be ex Mormons and I’m glad God Loves Mormons and Ex Mormons too 😊

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@Qiseeker God bless you

[@chrisdennis1449]

Just because there was 3 Nephites and John on the earth to serve and minister to mankind, doesn't mean that there wasn't an Apostasy.

[@BNichols021]

@@chrisdennis1449it does mean that the priesthood would not have totally left the earth

[@chrisdennis1449]

@BNichols021 The authority and power "the keys of God" to direct God's church here on earth were taken from the earth. The fact that there were possibly 4 people on the earth with priesthood, without the keys of authority isn't contradictory. It shows people have gross misunderstandings about our beliefs and show their ignorance to attack another faith

[@bigtobacco1098]

Matthew 16.18

[@ufxpnv]

The best argument against the Mormon church's claim of restoring the 'true' gospel, can be found in their own doctrine. Section 7 of the Doctrine and Covenants. This section claims that John the Beloved was made immortal by Christ in order to teach the gospel throughout the world until Jesus returned. So this puts the Mormon church in a predicament. Either John the Beloved, who wrote the book of Revelation, is an apostate to Christ or the true gospel was never taken from the earth. I've asked several Mormons about this and I'm given different answers or an 'I'll get back to you'. BTW I'm a resigned Mormon having completed my resignation from the church and receiving an acknowledgement letter.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

No wonder you resigned! There is no contradiction there! There was no public ministry of the church for 1260 years which does not mean that translated beings could not appear to individuals as God saw fit!!!

[@alvelasco3393]

Well. What about Jesus himself? Where did he go after the Resurrection?

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@alvelasco3393 After a short while upon the earth, he ascended to heaven!

[@tonymercer7759]

@@alvelasco3393 Read your/a Bible. Acts 1 9-12 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”

[@GeorgeDemetz]

John was not the church! Think!!!

[@scottbryner3]

Love this! I was an active Latter Say saint until I was 40, and over the past couple years our family has found new relationship with Jesus and a greater trust in His biblical teachings. Keep up the good work!

[@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m]

I suppose you believe you are now saved while your LDS family and friends are going to Hell?

[@alvelasco3393]

So you mean you finally read the Bible when you left the church?!?!👏👏👏

[@Violenthrust]

Great stuff. Going to my ex mo gf’s family members wedding tomorrow. These kind of videos help her and us understand her family more and reinforce our faith.

[@wmdubinhad]

How can teaching faults doctrine? Strengthen your faith?

[@chrisdennis1449]

We teach of Christ, we learn of Christ we invite others to learn more about Jesus Christ. Did you know Jesus Christ visited other lost sheep here on the American continent? You can read about it in the Book of Mormon. How can rejecting this message and not even giving it a chance strengthen your faith in Jesus Christ? I would think someone would be excited to learn more about Jesus Christ Would sincerely love to hear your thoughts. God bless

[@mitchellosmer1293]

@@chrisdennis1449 quote---We teach of Christ, we learn of Christ we invite others to learn more about Jesus Christ. Did you know Jesus Christ visited other lost sheep here on the American continent?--unquote When and where in the Ameicas??? When during His 3.5 years of his ministry???

[@chrisdennis1449]

@mitchellosmer1293 After Christ's death, resurrection, and ascension to Heaven, he appeared to people here in the Americas. He showed them the nail prints in His hands and feet. He blessed their sick and blind. He called Disciples to minister to the people. He taught the people the Gospel. The Book of Mormon is an ancient record of God's dealings with people here in the Americas. Christ's visit to these other sheep is the most important moment in the whole Book of Mormon. I hope you would give it a chance. John 10:16

[@mitchellosmer1293]

@@chrisdennis1449 John 10:[16] KJV And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. [17] Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. -USCCB --I have other sheep* that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd. ----LDS----16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. -----John 10:16 New American Bible (Revised Edition) 16 I have other sheep[a] that do not belong to this fold. These also I must lead, and they will hear my voice, and there will be one flock, one shepherd. --- 3 Nephi,” in The Book of Mormon: Third Nephi 9-30: “This Is My Gospel”, edited by Monte S. Nyman and Charles D. Tate Jr., Book of Mormon Symposium Series 8 (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University, 1993; reprint, Salt Lake City: Greg Kofford Books, 2008), 33-34. See also Robert J. Matthews, “Christ’s Authority, His Other Sheep, and the Redemption of Israel (3 Nephi 15-16),” in Alma 30 to Moroni, Studies in Scripture 8, edited by Kent P. Jackson (Salt Lake City: Deseret, 1988), 164. NO WHERE is there a mention of Jesus being in the Americas!!!! How did He get there? He appeared to his disciples, calling the apostles to the Great Commission of forgiving sin and baptizing repenters, and ascended to Heaven. What did Jesus do in the 40 days after his resurrection? 27:57-60). Three days later Jesus emerged victorious over death from the tomb. For the next 40 days He taught and ministered to His disciples in what must have been an intensely powerful experience, preparing them for His Ascension into heaven. How long did Jesus stay on earth after resurrection? Jesus was on the earth for forty days after his resurrection (Acts 1:3). However he was not with his disciples constantly during that time. Rather, he appeared to them, and others, at various times and in various locations. ----What did Jesus say after his resurrection? Now when Jesus meets with the disciples on the evening of the first day of the week, the day in which Jesus resurrected, his first words are “Peace be with you.” Not only are they uttered as a culmination of Jesus' previous teaching. ----Why did Jesus stay 40 days after resurrection? We aren't told, but a likely explanation is that he was using the forty days as a parallel to his time in the wilderness. Just as he spent forty days in the desert to prepare for his ministry, he now stayed with the apostles for forty days, preparing them for their ministry. -----How long did Jesus take after resurrection? 40 days This day is historically understood as "Ascension Day,” because it is the day that Jesus ascended back into heaven. Acts 1:1-3 tells us that from the time that Jesus rose again from the grave (Resurrection) to the time that He ascended into heaven (Ascension), it was a period of 40 days. ----- What did Jesus do after his resurrection? : r/Christianity Reddit · r/Christianity 20+ comments · 1 year ago After talking to Mary Magdalene, He went to heaven and presented Himself to His Father. Then, He spent 40 days frequently visiting His apostles, ... NOT ONE mention of Him going to the Americas!!!!

[@BNichols021]

As mentioned, Joseph’s claims also depend on the LDS version of priesthood authority, which is totally foreign to the biblical concept of priesthood.

[@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m]

It is interesting how this "infallible Bible" concept has got you to a place where you are ok worshiping a God who will allow most mankind to be eternally tortured while you are eternally happy. Why do you worship God? I guess you just want to eat, drink and be Merry in Heaven regardless of what happens to most of mankind. Congratulations! I worship God because I believe in the ideals which I believe he emulates. Charity, understanding, hope, mercy, common sense- not just for this life, but these eternal attributes. I will follow these attributes and will continue to do so in the next life.

[@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m]

You have a point. I will admit that.

[@bigtobacco1098]

​@@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1mI take all the attributes, not just the ones that make me feel good

[@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m]

​@@bigtobacco1098what do you mean?

[@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m]

​@@bigtobacco1098Are you saying believe if the attribute of casting most people to Hell for simply misunderstanding who God is in this life? Is that the type of person you are? What attributes are you willing to adopt? Would you go to Hell to help those there? If not, why? Because it would not make you feel good? Personally I think you worship God because he will ultimately make you FEEL eternally good (with no thought to anyone else).

[@dtondevold2881]

I find it interesting that the LDS church narrative was the restoration was complete with JS but now it’s an ongoing restoration but yet what have they prophesied?

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@dtondevold2881 interestingly, going to the celestial heaven in mormonism is united with plural marriage! Which is another gospel if one holds to the scriptures as a Christian

[@chrisdennis1449]

@dtondevold2881 there has never been a narrative that the restoration was complete. In fact the 9th article of faith published by Joseph Smith states just the opposite. You are being intellectually dishonest if you create a false narrative and then try to pass it off as authentic. That is deception. The 9th article of faith given by Joseph Smith is We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

[@GRACE4LYFE]

What about Muslims they claim follow same abrahamic God

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@chrisdennis1449 yeah J Smith didn't want it complete yet because he had more "revelations" to make up.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@GRACE4LYFE claims require evidence. And the evidence that Muslims have the exact same God as Christians is very lacking.

[@mongo4utube]

Excellent job GLM! This "total apostacy" claim has been my number one counter-claim to the falsehood of mormonism, You laid that out perfectly. I'm so glad Jesus came into my life and purged me of this false belief. In essence mormons are calling God a liar and that Jesus failed in his mission and his sacrifice on the cross was for naught. Now THAT is the heresy and "abomination"!

[@chrisdennis1449]

You are creating a strawman argument. Do better.

[@mongo4utube]

@@chrisdennis1449 Uhh? strawman? Try distillation. Reductio ad absurdum.

[@chrisdennis1449]

@mongo4utube I don't think that is the type of argument you are attempting. In essence I don't believe Christ failed in his mission and his sacrifice was for naught, I am not calling God a liar. You built that strawman and labeled that heresy and abomination. If arguments and proofs are where you are at in your faith journey, I wish you the best in your faith journey

[@alvelasco3393]

You ungrateful first world privileged rat!! If you only knew the awful torment that most of the people on earth suffer due to you wasting your time arguing weather the world is in spiritual shambles or not while hundreds of millions starve and drink putrid water around the world due to the fact that you haven’t used your Christian American privilege to go show them the light!! You strain the gnat and swallow a camel!

[@josiphorus]

I really enjoy your content. Keep it up! ❤

[@karentoler8860]

If a church is based on a lie ..it cant be true...i used to be a Mormon and didnt realize until i was born again .did i know the truth that set me free...im glad this deception is being unraveled...

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@karentoler8860 Christ stated one must be born of the water and the Spirit which is what happened to you when you were baptized into His church and received the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Spirit!

[@karenl7791]

@@GeorgeDemetz I was baptized into the LDS church at age 9. Nothing happened. I was baptized by the Holy Spirit in my car at a STOP sign at 48 with no men present to lay hands on me. There was no doubt which was the true Holy Spirit baptism to me. I was blind, but now I see!

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@karenl7791 I also did not receive the Holy Ghost until long after the ordinance.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@karenl7791 Read 3 Nephi 9:20 where Christ states that the Lamanites had the same experience as you!

[@karenl7791]

@@GeorgeDemetz then does that mean that there is actually no power in that ordinance if nothing happens when it is administered?

[@ryanjohnson4565]

Fantastic video-although one thing I’d modify is that the Kingdom (basilea) of God is not the same thing as the church, as presumed in the interpretation of the parable of the mustard seed and leaven in this vid. Rather, the Kingdom creates the church. The parable of the wheat and tares, along with Matt 28:20 are some of the most compelling arguments in the vid, along with the background from Jeremiah. Lots of other great nuggets in here too. Very well done.

[@AllTheseCreatures]

That's an interesting distinction, I'm going to think about that, thanks.

[@GLM]

I actually realized that I conflated without any distinction/clarification in the video when I was editing... Great point. I would say that the principle of Matthew 13 parables applying to the Kingdom has the same *implications* for the Church, but would still maintain a distinction between Kingdom and the Church (I'm a Baptist ha, what can I say). Appreciate your pushback on that!

[@ryanjohnson4565]

Totally. I think the points were still solid.

[@99blackbirds]

I grew up Mormon and we constantly heard " I know this church is True" we were taught to say it as kids every fast and testimony metting once a month and heavily taught to say it on our mission. Now I know the true church is not physical but spiritual! It is the heart and soul not the body! Its not the LDS garment (cloth) or LDS temple reccomend (paper) but the heart!!

[@TyleRMatin6532]

Took you that long to grasp church is spirituality? Glad it finally clicked

[@Seeuthere]

God Allmighty has preserved the Word since it was first written on stone tablets, papyrus and wood.

[@alvelasco3393]

But an active body of people fully believing in them has not always been on earth. The clearest example is when the Jews were taken captive into Babylon. They had to repent and renew their convictions of faith in action even when thrown into furnaces and dens of lions,…and only after all that they were allowed to return to Jerusalem where they could fully practice their devotion with the fullest of the protections and blessings as before the years of captivity.

[@tonymercer7759]

LDS teaching, doctrine and view of the Scriptures is not worth consifering, It is solely man-made and palpably wrong. Stay true to the Word of God .not what one man dreamt up

[@alvelasco3393]

Try a little harder. That blanket signing off of millions of people who actually read the Bible, and study it only shows that you should read it a bit more

[@TyleRMatin6532]

You’re defining the word of God to be “Bible”?

[@tonymercer7759]

@@TyleRMatin6532 and why not ?

[@GeorgeDemetz]

agueenchi117, I am in the right fold! I have studied theology and Mormon doctrine for more than 60 years. Read and study the second chapter of Daniel and ask yourself why Christ's kingdom was set up in the iron legs (the Roman empire), and then set up again in the days of the feet part of iron and clay (,the last days)! If the church and the kingdom was always with us, then why would it need to be restored again?!? Continued...

[@GeorgeDemetz]

Every apostle was ordained just like every priesthood holder was, and just because the Bible doesn't mention one, the pattern was obvious, except for the ignorant!! Questions,?!?

[@KathyStrickland-nh9vx]

Well said. God created all creation. He can certainly preserve His word. It's a shame demonic mind control has overtaken so many.

[@alvelasco3393]

What about the 20 lost books of the Bible that are mentioned in the Bible? But wait, you probably also believe that Jesus’ mother tongue was English, and that only people who hear the bastardized mega church Christianity heavily laden with American privilege are the only ones who deserve grace and salvation. How about you instead donate money to dig wells in Africa, Asia, or see how you can be a better neighbor to your down trodden Latin American neighbors with your disgustingly lobsided wealth and privilege in comparison to them. You ungrateful excuse of a Christian

[@TyleRMatin6532]

That would mean God created demonic mind control yes?

[@GeorgeDemetz]

Ask yourself also why Peter prophesied in Acts 3:19-21 when he says that "the heavens will receive Christ until the times of the restitution of ALL things." Continued...

[@wellsaidgoodheadfred9843]

It'd be cool if you went on Mormonstories and did like a top 5 or top 10 Biblical reasons why Mormonism isn't in line with the Bible. A lot of ex-mormons end up agnostic and atheists which Mormons have a bit more prejudice against than non-mormon Christians.

[@alvelasco3393]

Most people in Mormon stories are pretty clueless as to what it meant to be a Latter Day Saint in the first place

[@onlytruthmatters777]

​@@alvelasco3393 Actually l found the opposite to be true. Mormons are brainwashed. They accept mans version over God's. Mormons treat God like he was clueless when he inspired the Holy Bible. “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). KJV All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Mormons treat God as though he doesn't know the future and thus couldn't protect his word. What happened to all the people then that had the KJV before Joseph Smith version came out ? Were these people left without any reliable Bible or guidance while they had to wait for for JS?

[@alvelasco3393]

The Bible doesn’t say “without interruption.” So either you believe this guy’s interpretation of the parables or Joseph Smith’s interpretation of the Bible. We are back to square one on the first point of this video as to why supposedly there was no great Apostasy. Furthermore this guy seems to have never travelled abroad. His cozy, comfortable “first world” living and problems obviously cloud his mind as to the catastrophic and insanely perilous everyday lives of billions of people on earth due to the still lingering effects of the great apostasy. Indeed Jesus built upon Peter, but the basic founding of Christianity is free will, and when the followers reject the Master, and his prophets-as it did during so many times in the Old Testament, God withdraws His direct presence until people begin living by the guidance of the Holy Spirit again. This concept of “Universal, Spiritual, and

[@alvelasco3393]

Invisible belief, or belief in that concept is how people are seduced, confused and abused by cultists and new age spiritualists that use everyone for their hedonistic purposes

[@adamjett7947]

Can you provide a biblical basis for the “basic founding of Christianity” being free will? I understand this is an LDS concept based on extra-biblical conflict between Jesus and his brother Satan, but to my knowledge it is nowhere in the Bible or the early church.

[@alvelasco3393]

@@adamjett7947 excellent question and thanks for commenting. My knee jerk reaction answer is that the on going conflict between Jesus and Satan in the New Testament, and the on going conflict between Jehovah and Baal in the Old Testament are clear indications of these two Spiritual Beings are well acquainted with each other. This ongoing conflict is the proof itself that the overall meaning behind these Archetypes in the Bible narrative is the purpose for which it was written. There is no conflict unless they are attempting to engage the will of mankind. Mankind and their ability of cognition “if you eat of the fruit, you’ll have knowledge of good and evil” is the highest value worth fighting for in all creation. No other physical being God created during creation was given the right to choose right or wrong. Satan was the only other being created to be able to tap into this cognition of humankind which can only mean that he was product of an earlier creation of Elohim. since he alone has the ability to converse with us humans in ways that no other sort of being in creation can, other than God himself, and other human beings. In other words it is not that there needs to be one single (or many) verses expressing specifically that the Basic Foundation of Christianity is free will, when the entire corpus of every story of every book of the Bible is an attempt by two Greater than life beings to wrest-through Mankind’s cognition-and win their individual wills to put into action either the One or the Other’s Will. If this Answer seems too circular I’ll try harder

[@onlytruthmatters777]

​@@adamjett7947 It's not in the Bible or the early church because it's a false teaching by LDS.Jesus and Satan are NOT brothers. Jesus was with God the Father in the beginning. He was the creator of ALL things. Satan is a fallen angel.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

What Daniel 2 really shows is this; the image shows parts representing the coming kingdoms; Babylonian, Medes - Persian, Greek, Roman (WHEN Christ came and set up His church!!!), and the last days of feet part of iron and part of clay WHERE Christ restored His kingdom which would never again be given to other people!!!) Continued...

[@fredelliott6985]

What a great video! I am an ex Mormon. I have learned so much from your videos. Could you please explain the difference between the current LDS apostles and Prophets and if there are Prophets and Apostles on the earth today.

[@basedsigmalifter9482]

There are not. Divine revelation ceased with the death of St. John at the end of the first century.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@fredelliott6985 people can still get visions, miracles and revelations from God. But nowadays those things are not as well known because they're often not broadcasted or spread.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@basedsigmalifter9482 isn't that the doctrine of cessationism?

[@basedsigmalifter9482]

@@prayunceasingly2029 Not sure what that is. There is still private revelation.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@@basedsigmalifter9482 John MacArthur teaches cessationism.

[@BNichols021]

Lots of comments here to the effect of, “There are thousands of Christian denominations, so clearly there was a great apostasy.” I will point out that this is not at all evidence of a total apostasy, in the same way that the existence of multiple sects within the LDS / Mormon movements does not indicate that the LDS Church is in a state of apostasy.

[@scotthullinger4684]

There can be NO apostasy if the church itself is still intact the way it has always been, the way in which the Mormon church has always been organized. Offshoots of the church are indeed NO offshoots at all, but are entirely new entities which created themselves and have NOTHING to do with the Church. Politics works in a similar fashion, with a small portion of Republicans who become offshoots, and in effect behave much more like Democrats than Republicans. For example, there have never been just 8 or 10 apostles, but 12. The priesthood which existed anciently is the same priesthood which exists now. This is true because it has all been done directly under the authority of Christ himself, who restored his gospel. It was surely necessary to restore the church because it anciently ceased to exist. Only CHRIST himself can actually restore HIS church, and he accomplishes it via his chosen prophets. Whether or not you people believe the accounts of such prophets is an entirely different matter. Humble people, the members, discover and know the truth, and they know it because in some fashion or other, God has revealed it to them. Personal revelation from God is a very real thing. We can receive revelation for ourselves, and also how to direct our family affairs, for example. But the sort of authority and revelation to direct Christ's church is an entirely different matter. That's why only Christ appoints his leaders and prophets directly, rather than such men appointing themselves. Joseph Smith did not receive only one visitation from heaven, because he also received visitations from those who are responsible for writing and compiling the records of Christ's visitation to the ancient Americas, which is entirely what the Book of Mormon is about . . . Christ's visit to the Americas, and everything proceeding up to that specific fact with regard to Christ's gospel. The same sort of things happened in the Old World, with the result that there are countless Christian Churches which have different claims, teachings, and histories. Not all of them can be correct, of course. But ONE of them surely IS - The very fact that there are thousands of Christian denominations is PROOF indeed that there was a great apostasy. Christ claimed his identity in both the Old World and New world ... and enemies of Christ constantly make claims against Christ himself. This is the way things have ALWAYS been, and is surely the way things shall ALWAYS be.

[@dereksyota]

@@scotthullinger4684 there’s more proof that the new world was not visited by Jesus in the first place, there goes your argument.

[@scotthullinger4684]

@@dereksyota - Hey dumb arse - There is NO PROOF one way or the other. And just in case you didn't know ... religion is hardly a science project, least of all for imbeciles like you who act if you're a Jr. high school kid trying to win a science prize. You CANNOT prove nor disprove spiritual truths with SCIENCE! It can't be done.

[@alvelasco3393]

@@dereksyota watch a nu of graham hancock’s videos-a secular archeologist-and you’ll see a whole new world

[@cactusblob1688]

@@scotthullinger4684 YOU FOLLOW LIES FROM JOE SMITH. REPENT!

[@kaylondon6133]

Thank you so much for making these videos. I have never been Mormon, but there are poeple who I love which are Mormon. It breaks my heart to see anyone misled like this and I appreciate your efforts to help poeple find the true Jesus and therefore salvation. God be with you!

[@GeorgeDemetz]

The NT states that no man taketh this honor (priesthood) upon himself except as Aaron was called! And, how was Aaron called? He was called the same way as every priesthood holder snd apostle is called, just like Aaron was called, by revelation and the laying on of hands (SEE 1 Timothy 4:14!!!) Continued...

[@boysrus61]

If Joseph Smith thinks "ignorant translators, careless transcribers, or designing and corrupt priests have committed many errors", then how did these errors end up in the Book of Mormon which multiple prophets claim to be the most correct book on earth (whatever that means)? Did Joseph know that there are 3 authors to Isaiah? What about the "long ending of Mark" which is in the Book of Mormon?

[@AyeAyeAyeCaptain]

Excellent points and structure. The thing is, the true Biblical gospel is so simple, that it can result in getting people saved by hearing it, very quickly, and very easily. God designed it that way, because He is merciful and wills that none should perish. So, even when different institutions and sects throughout history have erred and have taught people to place trust in the rites and "authority" of whatever institution, their error and adding to or detracting from the gospel has not been able to overcome the simple message of the cross, and Christ crucified. This is an essential element always shared in Christian missionary work throughout history, and the simple way this gospel has to be delivered to (and most importantly, how it must be received and understood by) those without religion, or children or foreigners with a language divide, means that the pure gospel can still be delivered unto salvation of the hearer, even, ironically, by false teachers. The wolves/tares will aim to dilute and alter the gospel of grace by adding to it with works/sacraments/ordinances, with trusting in man and man's institutions, etc, but in so many cases, the "uneducated/ignorant (even illiterate)" and foreigners would only grasp the message of the cross, and then pass this along in their joy, after being saved by grace through faith. 1 Cor 1:17-31 is a good passage which shows that the simple message is delivered and believed, contrary to the "wisdom" of the world, and what is valued by the world. " 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty." So, amongst believers -- the "called out body/assembly of believers/ekklesia", the church has always existed as promised by God, and the gospel has been shared and rejoiced over, and has worked in men and saved souls. God is able to use what was intended for evil for good, and even when degrees of corruption and confusion exist in men's institutions, the Good News/gospel/message cannot be obliterated and lost, and it has been carried forth throughout the world, saving many souls. The Holy Spirit is at work, and God's work will never be frustrated!

[@mongo4utube]

Yes!

[@KendraAndTheLaw]

Excellent video. "And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades (i.e. the grave) shall not prevail against it." Matthew 16:18. This clearly states the Church of Jesus could never die. Joseph Smith even directly accused Jesus of being unable to build his church. Smith arrogantly boasted he did something that Jesus couldn't do. "I have more to *boast* of than ever any man had. *I am the only man* that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, *nor Jesus ever did it.* I boast that *no man* ever did such a work as I." (History of the Church 6:408-409) Astonishing.

[@brianthomassen2209]

Hello GLM, I watched your podcast. Your position assumes a dogmatic sectarianism that informs the entirety of your view. With this assumption there is a baseline circularity throughout the presentation. Without the bald assumption, everything unravels as no critical scholarship accepts your dogma. The Hellenization of Christianity is considered basic religious history. This means the would be move against the Mormon view is undercut by standard history itself. Primitive Christianity did not survive but became something else. To the points you raised: 1) The claim of the Great Apostasy is unbiblical: This retort fails on its face as the Mormon assertion traditionally has the apostasy into effect well before the Bible became what it did. Athanasius' compilation of the 27 books that would become the New Testament wasn't put forward until 367 CE. Jerome's Vulgate didn't exist until 410 CE. The typical Mormon position has the primitive Church ending sometime either in the late First or Second Centuries. Therefore, appeals to a text that is already claimed to be product of the very apostasy you seek to counter begs the question. Biblical appeals have no standing as they don't address the primary claim. 2) The claim an apostasy doesn't mean a total apostasy: three verses are cited. Two of these verses suffer from poor exegesis. a) 2 Thes 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" The Koine Greek for the King James language "except there come a falling away" is literally "except there come an apostasy". "μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία". Further, there is no qualifier, therefore the standard reading would be as a categorical. Stating the text doesn't add in the adjective 'total' apostasy therefore it isn't a total apostasy claim is adding something extra textual and doesn't understand the baseline reading of the Greek. b) 2 Tim. 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." Similar to 2 Thes. 2:3 the Koine Greek doesn't have any qualifier. Therefore, asserting the word "all' is missing therefore the verse(s) is only meant to convey a partial event is reading into the text rather than understanding the plain reading. The simple reading in the Greek is as a categorical. Both of these are examples of inserting a dogma and misconstruing the text for an agenda that undercuts the central thesis. 3) The claim Historically the Church has not fallen away. The assertion is the Church was and is an invisible universal realty, therefore a hierarchical priesthood was not needed. This view didn't have any standing until the 16th Century. It is anachronistic and an innovation of the Reformation. One simple example, all Ecumenical Councils were attended by ordained bishops, not random Christians. Also note: per apostleship and references to Paul: Paul claims his apostleship came directly from Christ: Galatians 1:1. This means it matches the original 12 who were also called by Christ. If one recognizes apostles have authority (for example by appealing to texts assumed written by apostles) then the loss of the apostles, by definition means a loss of that same authority. This is an implicit apostasy recognition. 4) Biblical theology does not allow for a great apostasy. It's unclear what this means. Does the Trinity constitute Biblical theology? If the answer is no, then the foundational theological concept for orthodox Christianity of Deity is unbiblical. If the answer is yes, then a legion of issues arises. I will list just a few -First, the historical problem. The Trintiy is a product of the Council of Nicaea in 325CE. This means it didn't exist for the first three hundred years after Christ. Therefore, either Christianity didn't exist until 325 CE, or for three hundred years there was a Christianity minus this concept. -Second, theologically the core concept of the Trinity is the Greek homoousias (same substance) used to describe the relationship of the Father and the Son. This concept does not exist in any Biblical text or the writings of any of Patristic Fathers. The conceptual framework itself is tied a Neoplatonic metaphysical posture related to the Great Chain of Being. Neoplatonism didn't arise until the Third Century. Trinitarianism is therefore a byproduct of a Greek philosophical posture -Third, the Nicaean Council was called and overseen by a Roman Emperor who himself would not be baptized until on his deathbed by an Arian Bishop (the fellows who initially lost at the Council of Nicaea). Further, the inclusion of homoousias into the final text was made by the emperor's insistence. Up to that point of the three major theological blocks at the Council (Arians, Origenists: those who rejected Arianism, but held the Son was subordinate to the Father) and Trinitarians, the trinitarian position was the least popular. As the Emperor Constantine didn't speak Greek (coming from the Latin speaking Western part of the Empire) it is commonly assumed his insistence on the verbiage of the texts was done under the influence of the Bishop of Cordova Hosius who himself was a trinitarian and had traveled with the emperor being part of his Western retinue. All of which means the final key verbiage of the Council on the metaphysics of Deity was determined by a pagan political figure. The Council of Nicaea can be taken as a simple example of apostasy.

[@mongo4utube]

Well structured response. To be clear, are you arguing that the evidence does not support a TOTAL apostacy?

[@brianthomassen2209]

@@mongo4utube Hello Mongo4tube, My reply is a critique of the argument, and that the caster's argument fails. It assumes a sectarian dogma that informs the whole position. Minus that assumption everything unravels. Interestingly, this isn't a problem for his target Mormonism as the Mormon apostasy claim can conform with the well-established standard history of Christianity where it is clear and obvious primitive Christianity and what developed thereafter are quite different. The Hellenization (that I referenced) and the politicalization of Christianity (that I didn't go into) are massive problems for a standard sectarian model. I also went through each of the caster's four points noting the errors. First of which is his heavy use of the Bible. The Mormon stance has the apostasy prior to the Bible, and therefore the Bible itself is a product of the apostasy. This means referencing the Bible doesn't address the core issue and actually begs the question.

[@mongo4utube]

@@brianthomassen2209 Given that the bible itself is a product of the apostacy what then is the source that informs us about the obvious nature of primitive Christianity? Furthermore it would seem to follow that on mormonism the bible itself is unnecessary.

[@brianthomassen2209]

@@mongo4utube Hello Mongo4tube, History is by definition an inductive enterprise. This means conclusions are always subject to revision based on new data. Historically speaking, I don't know if the obvious nature of anything is determinable. The Bible doesn't assume a final form until the later part of the 4th Century. Depending on the definition of primitive Christianity, there is: -The archeological record. -Texts on the Jesus movement from a variety of sources (for example, Pliny the Younger's letter to the Emperor Trajan about Christians dated about 111CE). -There are Common Era pseudepigrapha -Extant texts that were included in some early versions of the canon, but then for one reason or another fell from favor by one metropolitan or another, the "Shepherd of Hermas" for example -Comparisons of other Christian Traditions and their religious texts. The Ethiopic Church and their Bible is not that same as what formed in the Roman Empire. It includes different books, 1 Enoch for example. -The various theological writings of the Patristic Fathers etc. -The writings of rival sects/faiths that act as comparisons. The Gnostic works from the Nag Hammadi Library uncovered in Egypt in the 1940s for example. These can be compared against the Second Century writings of Irenaeus who contrasted his notion of Christianity against Gnosticism. Most Gnostic texts were destroyed by proto-orthodox Christians, so prior to the discovery of the Nag Hammadi texts little was known about their actual beliefs. To your question about Mormonism and the Bible: Mormonism recognizes the Bible as part of its scripture, but the Mormon canon is open, not closed. Furthermore, Mormonism rejects any sort of Biblical inerrancy. Textual flaws are expected and even assumed. The same notion applies to all its scripture, including the Book of Mormon. If men are flawed, then anything involving men will likely include errors. The epistemic thrust of Mormonism is based on revelation, not textual loyalty or devotion. If there is a text that is assumed to include the revealed word of the Divine, Mormonism is fine with that claim, but also looks to the source of, not just the product of, revelation.

[@scotthullinger4684]

Just about the ONLY significantly meaningful words you wrote are THESE - b) 2 Tim. 4:3-4 "For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." The world is SURELY full of fables. But even the portions which are not fables are almost entirely insignificant. The main point is that people have turned away from the TRUTH - Also tell us how there can be an apostasy before any gospel has been taught. After all, you said the Mormon stance is that the apostasy occurred before the Bible. There have in fact been MANY apostasies, and they occur wherever and whenever there are prophets who teach the gospel. History pretty much repeats itself all over the world in many different ways. The gospel is taught, and then evil people pervert it, and they very deliberately lead people astray. This is by far the OLDEST story on planet earth - an adherence to God, followed by a broad rejection of God. There have ALWAYS existed anti-Christs, as detailed in all Christian scripture in one way or another. The politicization of Christianity is surely ONE of the greatest problems in all Christian churches at large. This is surely why the current Pope now supports homosexuality. Every Pope is evil, but Pope Francis surely takes the cake. Such politicization occurs only OUTSIDE of the TRUE church of Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is the Great Whore of the world, but only because of its perversions. At least the Catholic church knows who Christ is, but it very essentially DENYS Christ.

[@haroldsmith5761]

Well done---Easy to listen to---Thank you

[@Originaldoctrine]

GLM says the Bible doesn’t allow for there to be a great apostasy. But the Bible says; Amos 8:11-12, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, 2 Timothy 4:3-4, 2 Peter 2:1-3.

[@hayday4304]

This is excellent!

[@ttopps]

When I have convocation with Mormon friends. I tell them I will convert to Mormonism if they can prove 2 things. 1. Show me proof great The great apostasy 2. Archaeological evidence of the claims in the book of mormon.

[@colinbaxter1022]

Have you talked to them? They have loads of "evidence". Haha.

[@tymorris7677]

Atheists make these same type of criticisms toward the bible. Yet there is plenty of evidence in this world that supports it's truth. The Book of Mormon plays a huge part of that evidence. As does the Bible support the truths within the Book of Mormon. Both books together as one testify of the living savior Jesus Christ and his ministry here on earth. Anyone actually searching out the truth will not demand proof before looking into it for themselves. Faith is not based on proof alone. Although proof does exist, it is not the foundation that builds our relationship with Christ. This is why the Church asks investigators to read the Book of Mormon and decide for themselves rather or not it is true after praying to God for confirmation. The same test would be given to someone wondering rather or not the Bible is true or not. For it is not the words alone that testify truth to the readers heart, but the confirmation given by God to the reader after they have read the words. We can go back and forth on doctrine all day long, just as the Pharisees did in the bible. But at the end of the day, one can only discover what is true and what isn't for themselves. That's between you and God. I would encourage anyone that is sincerely searching out truth to stop listening to the world for confirmation of truth about The Church, but rather read the Book of Mormon with an open heart. Pray to your heavenly father and ask if the words you have read are true. Use God as your final judge. Then go from there. I would encourage anyone to also do the same for the Bible. If a critic of The Church can't at least accomplish that step, then they really have no foot to stand on. It contradicts even the Bible and how a testimony of Christ is formed. It's like critiquing a book without even reading it first. Or reading the reviews of a book to decide on rather or not you're going to read it or not. Contrary to worldly belief, direct revelation from God does still take place in our day. "He is the same yesterday, today, and forever" Thus, He has not ceased to continue speaking through his prophets and apostles in this latter day. For if he didn't, then he would cease to be God entirely. I testify that The Book of Mormon is true. The Church and it's restored gospel are true. We having a living prophet here on this earth directing His church. Some of the most fundamental questions of the human race are answered with PERFECTION when one actually discovers the gospel for themselves. WHAT IS THE MEANING OF LIFE? 1. Who are we? 2. Where did we come from? 3. Why are we here? 4. Where are we going? 5. How do we get there? The knowledge and understanding of our premortal life as well as our post mortal life give ACTUAL meaning and PURPOSE to our life here on earth. The plan of salvation is a beautiful thing, and the adversary will continue to try anything he can to keep these truths (hiding in plain sight) hidden from the world. By distracting people with the complexity of doctrinal interpretation. The Pharisees fell victim to this exact same trap, and these were some of God's most righteous people at the time! History repeats itself and we are watching the same thing unfold today. Even with some of God's most righteous followers. This is why we NEED a prophet in our day and it's the reason why we DO have a prophet in our day. Why would God withhold such an important key figure in this day of such wickedness? He wouldn't. Why would God give us thousands of different churches to choose from with a variety of different titles and authorities, making it nearly impossible to choose which one is actually true? He wouldn't. We are taught that there is only one way to live with God again and that is through Christ. He even took the liberty of trademarking his church title with HIS NAME in it so we would not be confused. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. The name says it all. You and I are the "latter day saints". We are in the latter days before Christ's coming. It has been made simple for us just as it always has been from the beginning. Not easy, but plain and simple. We as unperfect beings are the ones that complicate everything when we start listening to the adversary. Come to know Christ for yourself. Not through someone else's opinions and interpretations. Build that personal foundation between you and him. Never cease to keep learning, keep an open heart and open mind, relying on God always to be the First and Final judge and confirmation in your heart of what is true and false. I promise you, your faith and testimony in what you know to be true will be unshakeable. You will learn to make that phone call to GOD FIRST, when wrestling with questions in your heart, rather than allowing the world to confirm what you already think you know. This is my testimony and mine alone. So please don't take my word for it, but rather find out for yourself. We think we know everything until we don't. Every single person on this planet. I pray this reaches someone in need to hear this. You may already have an amazing relationship with your savior. I hope so. The Church will do nothing more than strengthen that relationship even further. We can never have enough armor.

[@C.anthony80]

@ttopps that's not a good strategy..... the fact that there's 10,000 denominations who use the Bible to justify contradicting beliefs is enough to proof that a period of "no apostles to correct misunderstandings" has occurred.... As for archeology, you been living under a rock? There's a butt load of archeology..... though we don't need it..... but if archeology is needed for you to believe, then where is your archeological evidence that Jesus died and then resurrected 3 days later?....I believe he did because I don't need evidence to prove that he did. According to you, you need to see it. Medical science, archeology, history, biology, common sense all prove that nobody can die and then 3 days later come back to life..... and there is no evidence that Jesus ever did such thing....... there's no evidence that a burning bush talked to someone, there is no evidence that Jesus walked on water, there's zero evidence that the earth is only 6,000 years old, there's zero evidence that anyone in the Bible witnessed Jesus bring someone back from the dead, that's zero archeological evidence that God exists...... You sure that you need archeological evidence to believe in things? The evidences in the book of Mormon such as the bat creek stone, recently discovered ancient horses dating back to 600bc all exist..... evidences of Hebrew dna among native tribes, it's all there.... but the evidence of Jesus doesn't exist...... so why do you need evidence to support a book that testifies of Jesus, but you don't need evidence that Jesus rose from the grave?.... I sense that you don't have Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saint friends as you claim to have.

[@micheleh3851]

@ttopps Hello. Latter-day Saint here. 1. Apostacy means people departed from or corrupted the truth. If there was not a Great Apostacy since the time of Christ, there would be only ONE Christian religion on the earth right now instead of thousands of different denominations. Any number greater than one is proof of apostacy. Even if an apostacy hadn't happened yet, both the apostle Paul and John the Revelator in the New Testament speak of apostacy that will occur before the 2nd Coming of Christ. 2. There are many claims in the Book of Mormon. Which ones do you seek archeological evidence for? That Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God? That Jesus atoned for our sins? That Jesus was lifted up on the cross? That Jesus rose as a glorified, resurrected being on the third day? That Christ offers salvation from sin and death? That because of Christ, mankind can be resurrected too? That sure sounds like what the Bible teaches. What archeological evidence are you using to prove the Bible? That an Atonement is necessary? Or that what the Bible teaches really happened? Can you prove the Great Flood since no one has ever found the ark? Pick any account from the Bible and see what proof you have. If existing Biblical evidence were the metric that something actually happened, then why don't millions of Muslims or Hindus or other non-Christian groups embrace the Bible and Jesus with existing evidence? A clay pot on a museum shelf doesn't prove the Deity of Jesus Christ. Any conversion will come from the Holy Spirit and not from archeology. So it's not your "Mormon" friends responsibility to prove anything to you. The scriptures say the witness comes after the trial of faith.

[@bj.bruner]

Throw in proof of the Book of Abraham to make it a nice round 3

[@boltrooktwo]

Apostasy has nothing to do with losing the words of the prophets and Christ it is about the falling away of the hearts of people. This falling away is in the Bible prophesied by Paul and is something Protestants cited when they stage their reformations and fabricating their own interpretations as authoritative. Protestant traditions used the idea first to make their claims on the truth from the Bible over other churches and the orthodox traditions.

[@garmac6174]

See 2 Thes. 2:3 regarding “the apostasy/falling away”. This will occur AND the man of lawlessness/sin aka antichrist will be revealed before “that day”. What day? The one day of the Lord in verse 2, the one in verse 1 where we are “gathered” to Jesus. And the same gathering that is in 1 Thes. 4:15,16. The apostasy/falling away is very likely what is happening now in the world with so much false teachings in Christianity and evil being called good by the World. The world stage is set for an Antichrist to appear.

[@Jesusismysavior58]

I believe God proved Joseph Smith a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22).

[@BrianTerrill]

This is one of Joseph Smith's false prophecies: "1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations. 4 And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war. 5 And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation. 6 And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath, and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God, until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations; 7 That the cry of the saints, and of the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies. 8 Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen." (Doctrine and Covenants 87) Paul was set apart as an apostle in Antioch by laying on of hands. What Paul says in Galatians is in part his desire to puff himself up above the apostles Jesus ordained himself, it was a pride issue.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

​@@BrianTerrill there were previously American newspapers already predicting what this prophecy claims is original divinely inspired prophecy. Smith just copied what he had access to around him.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@prayunceasingly2029 Oh, it was just a lucky guess when he stated the war would begin in SC?!?

[@BrianTerrill]

@prayunceasingly2029 you got alike for saying that by a dumb person who just wanted to agree with you, but no, there were no newspapers saying the exact thing as he prophesied. Anti Mormons are like Democrats they say stupid things get likes from stupid people and can't cite their sources, so we can see if what is claimed is accurate. And to the person who gave you your like for your comment, what a dummy that person is, what a dummy they are.

[@prayunceasingly2029]

@GeorgeDemetz no, it was a known idea in his time because of socio political issues and climate at the time

[@melvincoleman595]

Another problem saying the church fell into apostasy happened. Is saying man can stop the work of God by just simply just changing the words in Bible.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

More: "joint heirs with Christ."; " we are His offspring"; "the third heaven"; " whom (Christ) the heavens will receive UNTIL the times of the RESTITUTION of ALL THINGS", and so many many more!!!

[@GeorgeDemetz]

Paul wrote that there would be a time of apostasy when spiritually blind fools would not be able to endure sound (logical) doctrine. There is no better example of this than the super stupid athanasian creed (the doctrine of the trinity)! In order to believe this illogical stupidity, they would have to believe that God always prayed to Himself, that He sat on the right hand of Himself, that at His baptism He descended upon Himself like a dove and threw his voice from heaven saying that He was well pleased with Himself, and instead of three in one it should be 15 in one since Christ stated that he would pray for His apostles that they all may be one just as He AND his Father were one!!! Continued...

[@bigtobacco1098]

Or is an exalted man 😅😅😅

[@davidjanbaz7728]

You're obviously ignorant of the TWO Powers in Heaven israelite theology of the 2nd temple period. Both persons of YHWH R in Genesis 19:24 and they aren't separate gods as Mormons believe. The Trinity comes from this theology long before your Total Apostasy of the Council of Niceae. Paul is talking about you all !!!

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@davidjanbaz7728 You dont know what you are talking about! I have studied theology for more than 60 years! You dont know crap! Can you tell me exactly what the 2nd chapter of Daniel lays out? Can you tell me what the restoration of ALL things refers to? Can you tell me when Elijah returned to earth, or are you still looking for him? Continued...

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@davidjanbaz7728 You mention the super stupid doctrine of the trinity which is nowhere to be found in any scripture except the prophecy by Paul that they would not endure sound (logical) doctrine!!! Continued...

[@bigtobacco1098]

@davidjanbaz7728 the trinity is mentioned before nicea... please read history and remove your lips from the sphincter of Joseph Smith

[@BrianTerrill]

"3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;" (2 Thessalonians 2:3) Greek word for falling away is apostasia

[@GLM]

I address that verse in this video...but I also made an entire video just about that verse, if you're curious: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hKm3o5pves2WnbM

[@BrianTerrill]

@@GLM 11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: 12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it. (Amos 8:11-12)

[@GLM]

Copied from another post: Why can't we see that as a reference to the 400 years of silence that came right after the era of Amos/the divided Kingdom Prophets? Or even a reference to the northern Kingdom scattered after Assyria destroyed Northern Israel? Those seems a much more natural fit/fulfillment of that text than post-Christ (especially given ALL of the prophetic promises about what the Messiah would bring about for Israel, eg. Restoration/New Covenant)

[@My10thAccount]

That’s very clearly talking about the end of days. The Great Apostasy, followed by The Anti-Christ, followed swiftly by Armageddon. That’s not referring to an apostasy that would last over a thousand years. Your interpretation is wrong, stop being in error, return to Catholicism from whence your ancestors came.

[@BrianTerrill]

@@My10thAccount yes the apostasy happens before the Second Coming, the apostasy took place starting around 80-100 ad,that certainly was before the 2nd coming.

[@JamesYaeahw]

If the apostasy did not happen, then the Apostasy is to come. If the Apostasy has happened then a restoration of the priesthood was needed, if it did not happen then the priesthood authority is with the Catholic church. Before the second coming an Apostasy has to happen.

[@Originaldoctrine]

GLM quotes Romans 11:4 as a supposed proof text that there was no great apostasy. But all that Romans 11:4 can confirm was that the great apostasy hadn’t yet happened at the time Romans was written.

[@Originaldoctrine]

It was Paul that taught Hebrews 5:4 and also Paul that taught Ephesians 4:11-12. Paul it seems was called directly by Jesus Christ and at some point was an ordained apostle; 1 Timothy 2:7. GLM is very much in error to claim there is no need for an organised church.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

Lets look at what Peter stated. He stated that the heavens would receive Christ "UNTIL the times of the restitution of ALL things."!!! Continued...

[@scotthullinger4684]

The restitution which you mentioned has INDEED already occurred. When you take into account all world history, it was a very short time ago, as if mere days ago.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@scotthullinger4684 No, the heavens received Christ until1820.

[@scotthullinger4684]

@@GeorgeDemetz - The current idiot Catholic pope now says that homosexuality is now acceptable to God. Go figure -

[@scotthullinger4684]

@@GeorgeDemetz - What has occurred is that Catholics have closed the door to God because the current idiot Pope has declared gay marriage acceptable. This is the way the world has gone, which by the way has nothing whatsoever do with Mormons, who have OPENED the gates of Heaven with modern day revelation from Prophets called of God. Baptism by sprinkling water? Ha! That's what Catholics do, despite the fact that Jesus properly taught that baptism be done only by total immersion.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

Well, he is not a true prophet and has no priesthood authority.

[@mbberry135]

By the Time of the writing of the Gospel of John. Every Apostle was replaced with new leaders. Rome already went through Sts. Peter, Linus, Sixtus, and Clement. If the Church was invisible how could or why would Christ tell John to write letters to specific churches? Only possible if the were visible. Which they are.

[@kenneththompson4578]

I realize that by posting I am walking along the edge of a precipice, bordering on contention, which I generally prefer to avoid. As a result, I would like to start by saying thank you for posting these points. In many ways, examining critiques of my faith helps me to refine it as I evaluate the difference between doctrine and culture; truth and error. While fire can be a painful experience it also has a refining quality and hard questions, when approached with a sound mind and an earnest heart, can both fortify and purify personal faith. Actually, being LDS, my religion is heavily rooted on the doctrine that God welcomes our questions and doesn't punish us for asking. He only asks that we don't ask out of doubt but in faith, nothing wavering. The invitation is to ask, the promise is that you will receive an answer. I also want to establish now that I don't feel any personal animosity towards GLM for posting these videos. I hardly know you, let alone am I able to accurately judge your intentions. As a result, I prefer to give the benefit of the doubt and assume that you are are a good man who loves the Bible and loves the Lord enough to ask hard questions and emphasize the truth as best you understand it. I would ask those here to offer me the same benefit in return as I offer an apologetic rebuttle (an intellectual rebuttle, not the same as an apology). For anyone who really wants to know the truth, my intention here is not to attack the character of this KZbinr but to present counter arguments with the goal of encouraging further thinking, pondering, and seeking. Ultimately, I believe the question of faith is not only one of the mind - Paul discovered the immense barrier that reason was to the Athenians, especially when he preached the Gospel of Christ resurrected. Instead, faith is a matter of the mind and heart, one that can only be reconciled with God directly. Were I to remain silent, I fear that someone who watches these videos would wholly dismiss the LDS faith and skip any spiritual effort required to know for themselves, dismissing it as "lunacy", like the Greek philosphies and reasonings so often dismissed and rejected Paul. As a result, I feel obligated to share some small things in the hopes that further discussion - not contention - can help us to understand one another and urge the sincere seeker of truth to turn to God, not men, to receive their own answer. So, without further adieu...

[@kenneththompson4578]

Second, the doctrine of the inerrancy of the Bible - or whole, complete perfection in its writing and compilation. Frankly, this is rapidly debunked, not only by LDS claims but by many who evaluate the history of the Bible's compilation - both Old and New testaments. Many people wonder why so many youth are leaving Christianity when they go to college and I believe a big reason is because they learn that the doctrine of inerrancy is fundamenally errant (or false) and it becomes perfectly clear when you study it's history. The Old testament was greatly affected in the post-babylonian restoration (I think this is also called the Judeo-persion restoration) which scholars view to be impacted by a Judaic nostalgia for the legacy of the Davidic reign. As a result, everything from Genesis to Chronicals, I think, is called in to academic question. That questioning is reinforced by the fact that the record was kept in an oral tradition to explain the written record. History often proves that oral traditions behave like a game of telephone in the long haul. At the point of Old Testament compilation, even Isaiah - one of the most powerful prophetic writers - is viewed as possibly affected by the distortion during the Babylonian captivity (there's a whole thing about Isaiah, deutero-Isaiah, and trioto-Isaiah calling the book's prophesies into question). Further, understanding the development of the New Testament shows it was also affected by significant factors. While Christ's teachings greatly clarified the doctrines of the Old Testament lost in the Judeo-persian restoration, the New testament, even assuming the best of intentions in it's compilation, has significant room for things to be lost or left out for a variety of reasons: One, because doctrines were altered over time - both intentionally and unintentionally (the lastest writings we have are from about 110 A.D. and weren't formally compiled until at least 300 A.D. that's a whole 200 years for interpretation of scripture to change, as evidenced by the need to convene eccuminical councils to standardize the doctrines of the Christian church). Two, because of the inability to prove authoritative authorship for every record at the time the New testament was compiled, it is possible that many true scriptures were left out (and were thus called apocryphal, being omitted from the standard cannon). Third, numerous political and doctrinal agendas affected the eccuminical councils as they compiled scripture and centralized doctrinal teachings which led to both scriptural alteration and a series of divisions in the church over doctrines, sufficient as to echo the divisions of the Sadducees, Pharasies, and other authoritative entities existing at the time of Jesus. Fourth and finally, there is a signifiant loss of meaning in the process of translation, even directly (Greek to English instead of Greek to Latin to English). One merely needs a biblical lexicon to discover a wealth of lost meanings and that still often lacks commonly implied meanings created by the cultures of the biblical ages. In sum, this leaves extensive room for questioning whether the Bible can be considered whole, complete, and without error as we hold it today - an essential assumption if your arguments are to stand. This also removes one's ability to refer to many Bible interpretations as authoritative, absolute, and irrefutable - another essential assumption.

[@kenneththompson4578]

Now, I really want to clarify, I don't share these things because I want to disuade people from believing in the Bible all together. I still believe it to be scripture and inspired writings that record God's dealings with men. However, I don't believe that it isn't without it's flaws. It is, after all, a perfect God's dealings with imperfect men, which was then recorded, compiled, and translated by imperfect men, adding a shakier foundation to the other factors listed previously. Regardless, the amount of truth retained in scripture is a testament to the faithful efforts of those who have earnestly sought to preserve it's truth. However, knowing these things, I can only call it true in as much as it has been "translated" (or compiled, recorded, and translated) correctly (see Article of Faith #8). The big question the seeker of truth needs to be able to answer is this: "what in the Bible is true and what was altered, omitted, or wrongly added?" Again, I don't share this to disuade people from believing in the Bible, but rather to show that one needs to look further than excerpts and quotes if you're going to have any hope of piecing it together correctly. Taking this background on the Bible into the context of today's world, we have seen an immense number of schisms (or divisions) in Christianity - something that Paul clearly taught should not be. From an earnest seeker of truth, it begs the question "of all the sects of religion, which is true?" Or more specifically, "which are the true doctrines that will bring salvation?" Some Christians claim that "only faith is necessary," others insist that "works and ordinances are needed," and others claim to be the only organization to "have the proper priesthood authority" to perform those ordinances: all from the self-same Bible, even the same translation! As a result, the average believer's ability to make complete sense of what biblical truthes can ultimately produce salvation seems to have become impossible by appealing to the Bible alone - Every sect seems to understand and preach it so differently. Drawing on a historical metaphore, we seem to have come to rely upon those with an advanced education to help us understand the meaning of scripture more than the revelations given to Prophets and Apostles who's authority was not given in the form of a diploma but by the Lord Himself. I mean, Moses was slow of speech, of Christ it was said "can any good thing come out of Nazareth?" Peter was a fisherman, and that's only a few examples! Considering these authoritative figures in Biblical history, does an advanced education or the money to purchase it really qualify us to teach Christ's doctrine? Unfortunately, at the time of Jesus none of those educated sects of Judaism were wholly compatible with Christ's teachings as He both restored and clarified essential doctrines that had been lost and contorted prior his condescension. I would ask, are Christianity's many sects today all that different from the ancient sects of Judaism as we await Christ's *second* coming? Considering the divisions, schisms, and contentions, I doubt it.

[@kenneththompson4578]

No, there remains an immense need for a restoration: for God to call another Apostle, Prophet and See-er and reveal to them the fullness of the Gospel. For God to take the shattered doctrines found in the Bible and piece them back together in a new and unpolluted testament. If you haven't read the Book of Mormon - Another Testament of Jesus Christ, you'd be shocked at how well it puts the pieces together. In fact, I've observed a shift in Christianity in general to embrace the doctrines of the Book of Mormon that clarify the Bible, in many instances without ever realizing that the Book of Mormon was the source of those clarifications! For the sake of fair consideration of arguments, you cannot simply skip over the Book of Mormon - it verifies everything, including the Bible and the apostacy! For the sake of personal spiritual development, you cannot read the Book of Mormon without being willing to prove it's teachings (John 7:17). Remarkably, a powerful theme in LDS doctrine demonstrates the need to obtain a personal witness - as stated in John 7:17, we can know the doctrine is true by *doing* it, not just idly listening, but by testing, or proving it. In summary, these are two points you seem to have missed in your apologetic refute of the great apostasy, and which resultantly carry significant ramifications: first, your assumed narrative of the Bible consists primarily of brief excerpts and needs much more support than you have provided, especially to refute the apostacy affirming narrative presented in the article by Hugh Nibley. Second, the errant (or imperfect) nature of the Bible, compounded by the wide variety of Christian sects and interpretations calls into question *your* authority to interpret the scriptures you chose accurately, and thus sheds doubt on whether your interpretation really is correct. This thereby lowers your assessment of the great apostasy and all other points to the same level of assumption with which you claim the LDS faith approaches it. So it's assumption verses assumption? That's hardly concrete evidence to argue with. Basically, if you cannot rightly call the Bible whole, complete and perfect as it currently stands (because it isn't), with what authority do you claim to teach it's message wholely and perfectly, let alone prove that your interpretation is the right one? You'll need more than a piece of paper showing you have a degree on it if you are to compete with men who claim to have received their authority from God, as did Moses or Peter.

[@kenneththompson4578]

Thank you for your consideration and again for your thought provoking points. I hope I was able to contribute to the discussion and that my rebuttle is treated with the same respect and clarity as I have attempted to proide. To clarify, I want to distinguish my arguments utilizing terms such as "authority." I did not use them with the intent to attack GLM'S character by implying that "he claims authority to teach where he shouldn't." Rather, I wanted to emphasize that authority to teach is an essential component of being able to trust a proper Biblical interpretation and that authority is both given and confirmed to the heart of an individual by God himself, not by a piece of paper from a man made institution or someone claiming to "know it." For the listener and reader who has sincere questions, I hope this gives space for you to see two different viewpoints and would encourage you to do your own well rounded research, investigation, proving and come to you own conclusions. I would especially emphasize that it is much more important for you to seek you answer from God, not the arm of flesh - and that flesh includes your own. If you're willing to receive it, God will show you if you ask in faith, nothing wavering (James 1:4-6).

[@Pound_Shift]

@@kenneththompson4578,You should check out some Chuck Missler videos on Bible code and how he describes the mathematical equations involved in the accuracy of the text . Hope this helps Also there are some great videos on the Dead Sea scrolls that affirm the translations of both old and New Testament

[@Originaldoctrine]

GLM says reformers weren’t looking to restore the church but to reform it. Under whose authority did they reform it? Who called them to reform it? Who had the keys of the kingdom needed to reform it? (Matthew 16:19) Where in the Bible does it say men will need to reform Christ’s church in the future? There are certainly no Bible verses talking about a great reformation, of which GLM claims to be a part, and yet they actively criticise The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints for saying there was a great apostasy.

[@Originaldoctrine]

GLM says that Jesus Christ’s church is invisible and represented by many small, local churches. GLMs unbiblical stance on churches and Christ’s authority is disputed by the Bible; Ephesians 4:5.

[@keithjackman747]

8:53 in those very verses, Paul talks about meeting with James.

[@Adol1984]

Here are a few scriptural references from both the Bible New Testament References Acts 20:29-30: Here, Paul warns that after his departure, grievous wolves will enter among the believers, not sparing the flock, and even from among their own selves shall men arise speaking perverse things to draw away disciples. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3: Paul talks about the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, warning not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word, nor by letter as from us, that the day of Christ is at hand. He specifically states that it will not come except there come a falling away first.

[@Originaldoctrine]

The great apostasy didn’t ever mean the gates of hell were prevailing against the Kingdom of God. The Gospel was ever being preached to the dead (1 Peter 4:6) and it was restored to this earth in the 1800s.

[@micheleh3851]

If Apostacy did not take place, how do you explain all the different Christian religions in the world? No apostacy = 1 denomination as Christ taught. There are literally thousands of Christan denominations on earth, not one. Many denominations existed before Joseph Smith. That was the reason for him praying to know which one he should join.

[@georgebauerschmidt5289]

Different denominations isn't proof of a total appstacy. For the past 80 years new denominations are created. That's not a valid explanation.

[@micheleh3851]

@georgebauerschmidt5289 - Hello. Apostacy has been happening long before the past 80 years.

[@BNichols021]

Most of those denominations agree on the core tenets of the gospel, and as such this would not constitute a “total apostasy.” I would also point out that the existence of many different sects of the LDS Church does not necessarily imply that the LDS Church has experienced a total apostasy either.

[@micheleh3851]

@BNichols021 - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches of The Great Apostacy, not of total apostacy. We believe great apostacy grew after all Christ's Apostles had died and the authority to act in Christ's name and through His power was no longer fully on the earth. Apostacy occurs when anyone deviates from original or revealed teachings from God. The Church of Jesus Christ has never taught there has been a total apostasy, as parts of Christ's Gospel and some truths have been on the earth in some form since the time of Adam and still exist today in various religions. My point is that apostacy has occurred, or there would be only one Church of Jesus Christ.

[@georgebauerschmidt5289]

@@micheleh3851 but there was ONE Church for the longest time, long before Joe. The Catholic church had been thriving for many centuries and teaching from the Bible, baptism, the birth and death of Jesus and His parables as well as the interaction with the apostles including Judas. There is actually more than "one church of Jesus Christ" so there is LDS and FLDS as well as: founder James D. Harmston "True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days" founder Gerald Peterson "Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" Also, if there was not a "Total Apostacy" then you admit that the true teachings of Jesus were still alive and present on Earth so that Joe was not necessary to restore anything since you admit it was never fully lost. Seem you have just validated what we already knew and what the video is teaching everyone. There was no Total Apostacy and Joe had no part in anything other than his own personal plan.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

What was restored?!! ALL darn things, just like Peter said!!! Namely, the church and kingdom that Daniel mentioned, prophets and apostles, the foundation of the church, the true priesthood authority which the New Testament is given by revelation and the laying on of hands, snd its a wrong darn assumption to assume just because something is not recorded in the few works we have in the NT, that Gods pattern was not followed!!! Continued...

[@kaylondon6133]

I recently was told by a Mormon that Jesus was the God of the old Testament and became a man in the new.... could you do a video on that. Or if you already have what is the name of it?

[@scotthullinger4684]

That's right. Jesus Christ is God of this earth, God of the old Testament, God of the New Testament, and God of the Book of Mormon. GOD is GOD. Jesus Christ does everything which God the Father - HIS father - has commanded. This is no grand mystery except to those who lack comprehension in a serious way.

[@Originaldoctrine]

GLM says we were never meant to continue the office of apostle into the modern day. The Bible says Ephesians 4:11-12; “11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:” Have the saints been perfected? Is the work of the ministry finished? What is the biblical reference that Jesus Christ will be abolishing the office of apostle like GLM intimates? Who has the keys of the kingdom now? Matthew 16:19. Does GLM have these keys?

[@GeorgeDemetz]

There was a great apostasy that lasted 1260 years, from 570 AD, around the time of the Lombard invasion of Rome, where there was no more public ministry of the church! That is why it was necessary to restore ALL things as Peter prophesied in Acts 3:19-31!!! Continued...

[@dereksyota]

You are the prime reason not everyone can just read and interpret the Bible. That apostasy was from a personal standpoint, not a universal apostasy. If that were the case. Jesus lied and the Holy Spirit failed.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@dereksyota You people don't even seem intelligent enough to even understand simple scripture! You can lose a battle and still prevail in the war!!! Read Revelation 13 again! The beast makes war against the saints and OVERCOMES them for 1260 years, see Clarke's Commentary!!!

[@dereksyota]

@@GeorgeDemetz and you believe you are the saints they talk about?😂

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@dereksyota Of course, do yoh know any other people that were called saints then or now?!?

[@Imtryingtobelikejesus-m1m]

Do you honestly believe that if Mormons got to Heaven and they out their theology was wrong, they would not listen to God and correct their view? They have faith in God! Why can you not see that?

[@lisanloves]

That might be the case, but isn’t it better for them, and the others that they influence, to learn the truth earlier than later?

[@JosephSmith-ph4xr]

Although the video is primarily designed to answer Mormon claims, I found it interesting to note that content creator admitted that there were biblical texts that promised an apostasy. Anyone who reads the Epistles will clearly see that Apostolic authority was being challenged in the first period of christianity. As Christianity moved into the second and third centuries, it moved further away from its Jewish origins and moved closer to the views of later theologians and Fathers who were influenced by Philo and mid-platonism. The very idea of who God was changed from the one God of Jesus and his Apostles, the God of the OT, to a platonistic triune God by the end of the fourth century. The Reformers failed to address this.

[@dwightsederholm408]

If prayer can close the lion‘s mouth, can’t it also open my heart to which church I will attend?

[@BNichols021]

God can reveal truth about a church to someone, but if one church’s teachings contradict the Bible, then clearly it was not revealed to them by God.

[@RichardHolmes-ll8ii]

Peer reviewed research from the Berkeley group confirm only a 1 in a 15 trillion chance that Nephi and Alma were written by the same author.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

Yes, and when did that little stone come?!? It came in the last days dummy, the days of feet psrt iron and clay!!! Christ set up His church in the days of the Roman empire, the iron legs!!! The little stone, which is the restored church, comes in the last days!!!

[@Originaldoctrine]

The parable of the mustard seed proving no apostasy is even weaker than the parable of the wheat and tares supposedly proving no apostasy.

[@scotthullinger4684]

The same people who fight against the concept and reality of the great apostasy are the same people who constantly fight against God in all ways generally. The great apostasy is INDEED genuine, it did occur, and the world now suffer the results of it. Such people always reject truth, and they always seize nonsense to replace it. They call evil good, and they call good evil. What else is new? This is how the world works.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

What else was restored? Modern revelation, modern scripture, true teachings, the return of Elijah as Malachi prophesied (has he come to your church, or are you still waiting for him?!?), and in short, everything that Christ set up im NT times!!!

[@Originaldoctrine]

GLM quotes the parable of the wheat and the tares to prove that there will never be an apostasy. This is a very subjective argument seeing as there are clear Bible verses describing a great apostasy. The Gospel is taught in this world as well as the world of spirits (1 Peter 4:6) therefore even if priesthood authority was removed from this world for a time it continued in the spirit world.

[@alvelasco3393]

The Bible doesn’t say “without interruption.” So either you believe this guy’s interpretation of the parables or Joseph Smith’s interpretation of the Bible. We are back to square one on the first point of this video as to why supposedly there was no great Apostasy. Furthermore this guy seems to have never travelled abroad. His cozy, comfortable “first world” living and problems obviously cloud his mind as to the catastrophic and insanely perilous everyday lives of billions of people on earth due to the still lingering effects of the great apostasy. Indeed Jesus built upon Peter, but the basic founding of Christianity is free will, and when the followers reject the Master, and his prophets-as it did during so many times in the Old Testament, God withdraws His direct presence until people begin living by the guidance of the Holy Spirit again.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

The problem with all these false religions is that they all claim to teach from the Bible, but every time that you quote one to them, they say; well it doesnt mean exactly that and then they will give you an idiotic ignorant interpretation! Example: "Ye are gods and ALL of you are the children of the Most High." Continued...

[@BNichols021]

Yes, because you can’t just quote one single line of text and take it at face value without considering the surrounding context. GLM has a whole video on the “Ye are gods” passages

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@BNichols021 I can quote a whole chapter to them and they still say the same thing. What they do is just twist the plain meaning of the scriptures to fit what they have been brainwashed to believe.

[@alvelasco3393]

@@GeorgeDemetzcan you quote passages from all 20 lost books of the Bible mentioned in the Bible?

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@alvelasco3393 The Bible alone has enough passages to support that, and even if you want to bury your head in the sand about that, Jesus uses that same quote in John 10:33-35 to defend Himself from a charge of blasphemy!!! Continued...

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@alvelasco3393 Also, that is the case with everything in existence! If a frog lays eggs, they don't look like a frog, but they ARE frogs, and when they change to tadpoles they still don't look like frogs, but they ARE frogs! We have the potential more than to be just immortal, but to become JOINT heirs, not Inferior heirs with Christ, who Himself stated that it is the Father's good pleasure to GIVE you the kingdom! Continued...

[@thegreatitudecoach]

The Rock that Christ referred to was not Peter the Apostle but - the Rock of revelation. Peter was a small rock. The rock upon which Christ would build his church was a Large Rock.

[@jeffwilson4693]

The clearest evidence of the apostasy is found in the tens of thousands of different bible based denominations, each with their own interpretation and understanding of the same book. They are not united under or in one God. So they are Hydra because they each have their own head, And collectively they are headless, being without unition in the one living God. So traditional Christianity is essentially a headless hydra if you remove its gown and look.

[@bigtobacco1098]

Non sequitur

[@GLM]

I made a video addressing that on that that you might have seen, if you're interested: kzbin.info/www/bejne/f4qlqYOkg7Cmedksi=Z7ZR7iOPUtv-fgIL

[@bigtobacco1098]

@jeffwilson4693 Same could be said about restoration groups

[@BNichols021]

@jeffwilson4693 Variations of belief don’t constitute apostasy so long as the key elements of the gospel are maintained, which is exactly why different denominations still consider the others to be “Christian”

[@jeffwilson4693]

@@bigtobacco1098 Not really. And it wouldn't change the nature of bible based religion. The Church referred to in the video, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, isn't a group of Church's. It is one Church. It isn't Bible based. And it has another testimony of Jesus Christ to go along with the Bible. It is called The Book of Mormon. The Church was restored by God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and a number of Angels in course, thru Joseph Smith. I realize that's a lot for traditional Christians to swallow. But that's because they are constrained and indoctrinated by two thousand years of evolving tradition. Truth is, they are all the offspring of the Catholic Church, which took the gospel to itself after the original Church leaders were killed, aligned itself to powerful nations, and proceeded to conquer the world in the name of God. All bible based denominations today are its offspring by way of the similar spirit of presumption.

[@alvelasco3393]

The Bible doesn’t say “without interruption.” So either you believe this guy’s interpretation of the parables or Joseph Smith’s interpretation of the Bible. We are back to square one on the first point of this video as to why supposedly there was no great Apostasy. Furthermore this guy seems to have never travelled abroad. His cozy, comfortable “first world” living and problems obviously cloud his mind as to the catastrophic and insanely perilous everyday lives of billions of people on earth due to the still lingering effects of the great apostasy

[@samhunt9380]

Joseph Smith would know all about "ignorant translators". He was caught out in his own arrogance.......

[@dl6066]

Apostasy is self evident. Take a look at all the protestant churches with different doctrines. Truth is one and Truth don't contradict If the Catholic Church is the original Christ Church, then what about the Eastern Orthodox and all the differing doctrines. How can there a True Church when they are all different?

[@GeorgeDemetz]

This prophecy was fulfilled when after a LONG time in the heavens, Christ returned to RESTORE all things just as Peter prophesied!!! Continued...

[@alvelasco3393]

That’s why the Catholic Church itself doesn’t even consider the council of Jerusalem of 50 AD to be Ecumenical😂

[@GeorgeDemetz]

@@alvelasco3393 They're idiots anyway.

[@heathermcdougall8023]

The Orthodox church has an equal claim t being a genuine, apostolic church too.

[@ChristianityOntheBottomShelf]

✝️

[@bernardmailu5185]

Evidence of great apostasy is 1 many differences Christian denomination 2 different conflict gospel believe 3closed cannon 4no living prophet 5 no revelation 6 no apperance of christ 7 corrupt world

[@svenavm07]

Saints Peter and Paul are considered the two founding pillars of the Church of Rome, and their theological and symbolic importance is immense in Christian tradition. ### Saint Peter: Peter (Simon-Peter), often called **the Prince of the Apostles**, is considered the first bishop of Rome, the first pope. In the Gospel according to Matthew, Jesus says to Peter: - "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church" (Matthew 16:18). This phrase is the theological basis for the authority of Peter, and by extension his successors, over the Church. Peter is thus symbolically the **foundation** on which the Church is built, representing solidity, unshakeable faith, and the role of spiritual leadership. ### Saint Paul: Paul, for his part, is the **Apostle to the Gentiles** (non-Jews). His mission was to take the Gospel beyond the Jewish people, particularly into the Roman Empire. Paul symbolizes the **opening of the Church to the universal**, mission, evangelization and the spread of Christianity throughout the world. He is the embodiment of the Church's missionary drive, linking local and universal faith. ### Theologically and symbolically : Together, Peter and Paul symbolize two complementary aspects of the Church: 1. **Peter**, with his role of authority, symbolizes the institution, solidity and rootedness of the faith. 2. **Paul**, with his mission of evangelization, symbolizes the dynamism and expansion of the faith, and its openness to the world. These two apostles are venerated together because they embody the Church's stability and movement, institution and mission, tradition and universality. Their death as martyrs in Rome strengthens their spiritual bond with the city, placing it at the center of Christianity. ### Parallel with Romulus and Remus: Christian tradition has sometimes drawn a parallel between Peter and Paul and the mythical founders of Rome, **Romulus and Remus**. Romulus and Remus are the two legendary brothers who, according to Roman mythology, founded the city of Rome. This comparison is intended to underline a **spiritual renewal**: just as Romulus and Remus were the founders of the city of Rome, Peter and Paul are the spiritual founders of the new Christian "Rome", i.e. the Church. However, there are striking contrasts: - Romulus kills his brother Remus, in an act of violence to establish his supremacy. By contrast, Peter and Paul, though different in their missions, are united in their faith, and both die as martyrs in Rome, in an act of fidelity to Christ. Their bond is therefore one of sacrifice and spiritual complementarity. - The founding of Rome by Romulus and Remus is an act of **earthly power**, while the founding of the Church by Peter and Paul is an act of **spiritual power**, founded on martyrdom, humility and service. ### To sum up: Peter and Paul, like Romulus and Remus, are seen as founders, but their foundation is of a spiritual and moral nature, in contrast to the mythical and violent foundation of Rome. Their mission, combining stability and openness, symbolizes the birth of a new Rome, no longer a temporal power, but a universal spiritual center, the seat of Christianity.

[@YogiTheBearMan]

0:54 I hate that the LDS church switched to this misleading url.

[@nancynelson7253]

AMEN!

[@Originaldoctrine]

GLM quotes Daniel 2:44 but this is talking about the last days and not the meridian of time when Christ fulfilled his mortal ministry.

[@user-mn447]

Just found your account. Thanks!

[@ryanroberts8783]

Why not? There were plenty of schisms that happened. Most notably the great schism that split the original church into the eastern and western churches.

[@BNichols021]

A schism does not at all suggest that either side (or not even any side, necessarily) has gone apostate.

[@kylehansen639]

Protestants do not have a leg to stand on: Why must the Mormon maintain belief in the first 3 paragraphs of the Nicene Creed to be considered a "true Christian" but the Protestants Can just reject the 4th paragraph of the Creed with impunity? If Sola Scriptura is true, then by what list of books were the 1st,2nd,3rd,4th century Christians using to "Bible Alone" with BEFORE there even was a fixed Canon? By whose tradition does the Protestant have the NT Canon of Scripture- How do you as a Protestant know the NT Canon you use is the correct list of books? If Protestantism is true then why did NO ONE teach, practice, or follow Sola Scriptura AND Sola Fide prior to the Reformers inventing the dogmas? How is it that the Orthodox Bishops that decided the NT Canon, being led by the Holy Spirit through the 7 Ecumenical councils and into today, are not to be trusted on all the Canons decided at those Councils? Were those Orthodox Bishops only to be trusted for the very NT Canon but were just heretics on everything else? No, Protestism is just as inauthentic as Mormonism. Protestantism is completely divorced from The Church established at Pentecost, Having ZERO normative authority and ZERO continuity with the Apostles or the early Church. Why hasn't "the plain meaning of the text" united all the Protestant sects/cults? Why couldn't Zwingli and Luther agree on the most fundamental part of worship: The Eucharist? Contrary to what you stated in this video "the Church" - which Paul says is "the pillar and bulwark of the truth" - is not "invisible". Jesus told us the Helper would lead us into all truth...Jesus IS the head of the Church. The Church exists as a physical organization, it is tangible, it has been for 2000 years. Just because YOU arbitrarily reject that Church doesn't by default make Protestantism true. Protestants, like Mormons, just reinvent Church history, and in doing so reinvent Christianity. A heretic is one who picks and chooses. Now again, why must the Mormon maintain a belief in the first 3 paragraphs of the Nicene Creed to be a Christian but the Protestant can reject the 4th paragraph with impunity? Jesus didn't fail, the Holy Spirit didn't allow the Church to drift off into error and heresy. Why would we distrust the Church Fathers who existed much closer to Christ and the Apostles and trust the Protestant, whose authority doesn't extend past his/her doorstep, and whose position only traces back to the 16th century? Seems foolish. Like believing in Golden plates. Prots rave about a "Reformation" and the Mormons rave about a "Restoration" but both appear to be nothing but heretical cults. Protestantism is an ever evolving product of the 16th century, and Mormonism is a ever evolving product of the 19th century. Prots appeal to and spawn from Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Arminius, and Mormons from Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Hinckley and Russell...Heretics are heretics....Those who pick and choose. Paul says to anathematize anyone preaching a different gospel. Paul says to avoid anyone claiming to be a Christinan that doesn't "hold fast to the traditions" passed down by the Apostles. Anyone. Remove the log from your own eye. May the Spirit lead YOU into all truth, the Church, which is the Pillar and bulwark of that truth. The hour is late. Repent.

[@carlitobrigante404]

Are you Eastern Orthodox or Roman Catholic? I’m Eastern Orthodox and a ex mormor and a former Protestant and agree with you. But just wondering if your Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox

[@GRACE4LYFE]

Satan has infiltrated the catholic church many popes ago keep following man an listen to your pope u follow same God as Muslims Buddhists hindus an Mormons now go kiss the Quran follow by example as your head authority

[@Originaldoctrine]

The parable of the leaven is another very weak way of trying to prove no apostasy.

[@brushylake4606]

The "Catholic Church" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are not the same thing.

[@iKentine]

I could sit here and write paragraph after paragraph after paragraph about why most of your claims would doubly apply to yourself, but I doubt you would heed my words. I imagine you, like all people everywhere, would sooner double down than consider and evaluate my words. Nevertheless, I provide them. I, myself, am not a Mormon, but I was one for 18 years so I understand the mentality. If you, a modern evangelical Protestant were to be honest with the reality of what the historic Christian church believed in the 100's, the 400's, the 900's, the 1200's etc... prior to the reformation, then you would have to conclude that they were apostate as well, just like the Mormons do. You may not be aware of this or realize it yourself, but many protestants, Baptists, and Reformed people have moved towards accepting that view because they've been confronted with the reality of what Christianity was in history. Even our good friend Aaron Shaf, whom you've had on the show if I recall correctly, embraced this view last time I spoke with him. When I asked him how he could possibly justify that, the response I essentially got was, "You shouldn't be so quick to throw something out just because it's foundational to Mormonism." Still many other scholars are forced to admit the data. F.F. Bruce in his book "The Canon of Scripture" as well as Lee McDonald in his book "Formation of the Christian Biblical Canon" both scholars in the evangelical tradition admit that the early church used a different Bible than what Protestants accept, *and* that the tradition of the church was seen as authoritative in validating which books were, in fact, apostolic, and which were not. Iustitia Dei by Alister McGrath is another classic Protestant text that admits that the early Christian view of salvation & justification all the way up to the reformation is not the same as what Martin Luther and the eventual successors of the protestant reformation believed in. Heiko Oberman's book "Harvest of Medieval Theology" also demonstrates that Martin Luther's view could never even have arisen if the medieval philosophy of nominalism had not first set the stage for it, and that nobody took a nominalist understanding of salvation prior to that movement at that time. Jaroslav Pelikan was a presbyterian minister who converted to holy Orthodoxy when he was presented with these historical realities. Here at a reformed Baptist Seminary myself, where I live, work, and go to school, I can't tell you how many times I've heard "I believe in the secret underground church," or some variation of the monumentally arrogant phrase, "the church began in weakness, ignorance, and heresy, and it took centuries upon centuries for us to finally get to the point where we understood the gospel properly in the reformation." The very professor I'm taking church history from this semester prefaced his whole class on saying (paraphrased), "We should be cautious when consulting the voices of the past, because they didn't have the benefit of knowing what we know now." Protestantism is absolutely dominated by what we might, colloquially, call "the imperialism of the present." That is, what ever is newer, whatever is more recent, and whatever is more up-to-date, is better and more accurate. The sacred tradition of the church, the holy fathers, and the great saints of the past are all viewed through a skeptical lens. Now, Protestant saints and holy fathers are PhD seminary graduates and/or people with massive followings on the internet. Roman Catholicism also isn't the only option. Orthodoxy exists, Anglicanism exists, and even Lutheranism (which I am presently a part of) understands and maintains a belief in things from the history of the church that most Protestants today would not accept including ordered liturgical worship, confession & absolution before the presbyter & the church, infant water baptism, (infant) water baptismal regeneration, and the Holy Eucharist as truly the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ. But even these have missed out on things that were once fundamental to the faith like the normative & binding authority of the church and its councils, a different OT canon than modern Protestants accept (which books vindicate prayers on behalf of departed believers), relics, iconography, the authority of tradition, making the sign of the cross, the church as a visible canonical institution with discernible boundaries & the authority to anathematize and excommunicate heretics and apostates. On and on I could go. I felt I had to mention these things because I believe I have a duty to speak up and say something when someone is speaking things that aren't true, even if it's coming from a place of sincerity. This critique is not meant to come off as bashing and attacking, but rather as a wake up call and potentially a pointer to say, "Hey, there are better ways to confront Mormonism than what is possible within Protestantism."

[@GLM]

Lots to note there - and I appreciate your thoughts. I would *absolutely agree* that many have an unhealthy trust of our modern age over and above past ages. We WAY to readily assume *we* are the most intelligent and most correct-a wildly arrogant and dangerous claim. I don't have time to respond to everything presently, but I will say this - I want to have *great* honor for the legacy of Christ's Church AND the notable Christian thinkers of the past, but I do still maintain that the Church and its theology/practices are ultimately subject to God's Word. I think it's legitimate to point out areas where the Church might have errored-while still acknowledging that there was no *total* Apostasy. Even amidst genuinely errant theology, Christ was still building His Church. While I acknowledge that we have a distinct theology that differs in a number of places from the doctrines of medieval Christianity, I don't think that means we are cut off from the tradition of Christianity, because (as I said in the video) I don't take the Church to be an exclusively visible institution, but also an invisible, spiritual reality. In terms of relics, icons, traditions, etc. - the primary question is this: what authority does such an Institutional Visible Church have in legitimately determining practices/doctrines. I would say - none, if Scripture doesn't speak to such things. The Church only has the authority to enact what God has already declared/commanded in His Word - but I suppose that's what places me distinctly in the lineage of the Puritans/Reformed Protestants ha... I can say that-while still maintaining that these things didn't result in a Great Apostasy in the way that Mormonism speaks of it. Will respond re: canon later, if you want. All that to say - I appreciate your thoughts. I'm thoroughly a Protestant (along with my Anglican/Lutheran brothers!) who wants to maintain that we are still a legitimate part of historic Christianity which Christ Himself has been building in all ages since His ascension.

[@QuolaFan1]

You should read Rome Sweet Home by Scott and Kimberly Hahn.

[@adamloughran]

Hard to explain Paul's multiple revelations on a falling away

[@svenavm07]

The Twelve Apostles elected by Jesus were not meant to live forever and rule the earth. They represented the fathers of Christianity and the church. Judas was a betrayer. He betrayed his master Jesus, which is the same as betraying the whole group of twelve, and it implies that he is no longer a part of the group of the Twelve Apostles. Judas deserted the company of Twelve. It was now necessary to replace the office of Judas, possibly because they believed that 12 was the divinely appointed number by Jesus Christ and it should be maintained. The number twelve might also represent the twelve tribes of Israel. Thus, it seems like it was necessary to continue the tradition of the number Twelve. The death of James did not end his position in the Twelve as he was not a betrayer like Judas. In fact, all the apostles (according to tradition) were martyred. They are now all dead and probably are now in Heaven, occupying the Twelve Thrones reserved for them in Heaven (my speculation). And, Jesus did not elect Twelve Popes, rather Twelve Apostles.

[@Steve-to3bw]

If there was never apostacy every one should be catholic. If the Catholic church is wrong then there was a apostacy . If lds church is wrong every one should be catholic makes sense to me. Question is why is not every one is catholic?

[@GLM]

So….did you watch the video, where I address that exact issue?

[@wmdubinhad]

GLM makes a lot of mistakes in this video about what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes about the Great Apostasy. He tries to make you think the wheat and weeds represent people (good and bad), but then he switches mid stream and says it represent a church. People and a church aren't the same thing. GLM gives other examples, but his pattern stays the same. He tells you one thing and then changes it to fit his own understanding of the teachings. For example, when Jesus talked about Peter’s revelation from God being the rock, or the "rock of revelation," GLM tries to make it sound like Peter himself is the rock, not the revelation Peter just received from God. There are many examples of apostasies in the Bible, like in Deuteronomy 13, Judges, Jeremiah, and others. But the "Great Apostasy" had already started, affecting both the church and its teachings. The 12 Apostles were already fighting against it in their letters. For instance, some early Christians believed in Christ but didn’t believe in the resurrection of the dead-where your spirit and body are reunited forever. Even today, many Christian churches don’t fully understand or teach what resurrection truly means. That's a major doctrine lost! We believe that many plain and precious truths were lost over time. Another clear example of the apostasy come from GLM own words. His idea of an “invisible universal reality” church? So anyone can start a church of Christ because of his doctrine of invisible, really? WOW, I would like chapter verse of this new invisible doctrine. The scriptures aren’t meant to be treated like a buffet of Christ's teachings. You can’t just pick and choose verses and then mix your own ideas with what the Lord taught.

[@GLM]

Re: Wheat and weeds - It does represent people. But the logical implication here is that without the Church or the Gospel, there couldn't be people who shine like the sun in the Father's Kingdom. According to LDS teaching, Priesthood Authority (and the Church administrating the ordinances) is necessary for people to have eternal life-and so if there was an apostasy, there couldn't be any wheat. Also...the term church (ekklesia) does literally mean an assembly of people. Re: Peter & the Rock, I said nothing like that. Re: Apostasies - as I said in the video, I do believe that there were times where there was great error....but never a *total apostasy*. The Apostles did warn about false teaching-but they didn't indicate that the Church or the Gospel would ever be totally lost. Re: Invisible church - perhaps I didn't explain well here. No, we don't believe that "just anyone" can begin a legitimate local church whenever they want to do something different. There's a difference between the visible local churches and the worldwide invisible church. When the New Testament talks about the Church of which Christ is the head, the bride that he purifies, the community of saints that belong to the heavenly New Jerusalem-it's speaking about a universal church consisting of exclusively regenerate, justified members. The Church simply wasn't (historically) a single visible entity - it was numerous churches (The church in Jerusalem, in Rome, in Ephesus, etc.). Hebrews 12:22-23 says, "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly [Church] of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven." The Church of the Firstborn enrolled in heaven includes ALL believers in ALL areas - but there was no earthly institution ruling over them all.

[@wmdubinhad]

@@GLM Our Church teaches the Great Apostasy occurred when Christ's church was removed from the Earth due to powerful people mixing their own teachings with Christ's doctrines, not about the wheat/people being removed. We never teach this. BTW - The term "church" can mean different things (nice try), but we see it as each person making personal covenants to become a member of Christ's church. Claiming Peter is the rock shifts from the teaching that Christ would build on revelation (the true rock), which Peter received from the Father, to the idea that Peter himself is the rock, not the revelation. Your issue seems simple: you define our faith using your own terms and understanding, which creates confusion. Here’s how we see it: CHURCH: The apostolic organization established by Christ. People join the Church by making covenants to Jesus Christ via baptism... GOSPEL: Our Heavenly Father’s plan of happiness-where we came from, why we’re here, and where we’re going after this life. DOCTRINES: Christ's core teachings that never change, no matter what we want-like knowing we all have a Father in Heaven. In short, your argument against the Great Apostasy shows a serious misunderstanding of our teachings/beliefs about the Church, Gospel, and Doctrine. You don’t own Christ, and I don't think you're claiming to be a prophet. So, your approach should be more along the lines of “I BELIEVE,” as it’s clear you don’t fully understand our teachings.

[@GLM]

I recognize that's how Latter-day Saints define those things - but I reject those definitions for those topics. My goal is not to *internally* evaluate whether the way the LDS Church defines those things is consistent, I'm critiquing the LDS view of the Apostasy with what I understand to be a Biblical understanding/definition of these topics.

[@wmdubinhad]

@@GLM As I understand it, Jesus tells Peter He’ll build His church on revelation, while you interpret it as Peter being the rock Christ will build on. This is a clear example of why the apostasy happened: we see the Bible one way, and you see it another. Who’s interpreting it correctly? You judge our church, faith, and teachings based on your interpretation and understanding of the Bible. How can we be sure you're reading the scriptures as they were intended (revelation vs. rock)? There are thousands of Christian religions that read different versions of the Bible but can't agree on many important doctrines and teachings. These thousands of Christian religions are not as aligned as you might think. For example, One group teaches that salvation comes just by believing in Christ, while another believes it starts with baptism. One says you're still saved even if you rob a bank after being saved, while another argues that robbing a bank means you were never truly saved.

[@GeorgeDemetz]

paul prophesied about this great falling away where spiritual blindness would abound and fools would not endure sound (logical) doctrine! There is no better example of this than than athanasian creed, promoting the ridiculous trinity doctrine!! Continued...

[@geoffreydowdle5751]

Me, biting my tongue in Dan McClellan.

[@silverparemund]

Amos 8:11-12 says the gospel will be lost and none will find it, necessitating a restoration

[@GLM]

Why can't we see that as a reference to the 400 years of silence that came right after the era of Amos/the divided Kingdom Prophets? Or even a reference to the northern Kingdom scattered after Assyria destroyed Northern Israel? Those seems a much more natural fit/fulfillment of that text than post-Christ (especially given ALL of the prophetic promises about what the Messiah would bring about for Israel, eg. Restoration/New Covenant)

[@nomis4136]

@silverparemund Please really, really read the Bible. Read it as if you have never read it before. Read it not to find points that seem to prove your opinion but to really find out what it says.

[@timbuckman1232]

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

[@kenmccain9743]

If the apostasy never happened, why are there literally 100's of versions of Bibles? And if the apostasy never happened, the heavens would not be sealed, as your church claims. If the apostasy never happened, there would be prophets and apostles in your church, but your groups can't say yes to any one these beliefs

[@georgebauerschmidt5289]

One version, different translations. The heavens are not sealed. There are many prophets and apostles all over the Christian world. They are not intended to be famous as that would make them receive all the glory when it belongs only to Jesus our God.

[@BNichols021]

I would encourage you to watch some of their videos on different Bible translations / versions. It’s not at all evidence that there is something *wrong*. It is a simple fact that whenever anything is translated from one language to another, there are multiple approaches for trying to convey the meaning of the text.

[@SusanDianeHowell]

You are defending the Vatican?

[@Jharrison6014]

He told Joseph not to join ANY religion of the day. He told Joseph he would LATER show him how to organize this church. The world would be a COMPLETE waste If His word wasn't restored. There was an apostacy where all the 12 were killed. You need to look at ALL the facts. not just a narrow view. You don't even call us by the proper name, so you must not know us well enough to have a dispute. We are The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And all are welcome to reply, i especially would love to see the ones who respect God and his church to ALSO come forward and dispute this mans false claim in his grumpy little KZbin video. Come on, who's here that can fight for God and his church? Please you need to be heard. Be BOLD and speak. HE is bold. Now you must be BOLD.

[@BNichols021]

@Jharrison6014 did you watch the video?

[@davidjanbaz7728]

Names mean nothing without the correct substance of your church: herecy is all I see in your church.

[@Jharrison6014]

@@BNichols021 2:09 here he says correct, there were parts of the ORIGINAL Bible that were taken OUT. You haven't heard of some of the recently found Dead Sea Scrolls? These were not in the bible because they were taken OUT. The Latter Day Saints (as I understand) is the fullness of the gospel. Keys of the Priesthood were taken away before they were restored in the early 1800s. , and I believe baptism by immersion is the correct way. Even Satan talking to Adam and Eve told HALF TRUTHS. Satan is FINE with just ENOUGH truth because it is NOT nearly enough to challenge him.

[@Jharrison6014]

@@davidjanbaz7728 Secondly I appreciate your willingness to have a civil conversation. It surprises me because I couldn't get that from my own family (some of them). In ALL of our pursuits of truth, we need the WHOLE truth. Not just parts, or thinking part will be enough. I thank you BOTH again for your replies and tactfullness.