Golden Plates and the Book of Mormon | Ep. 1583 | LDS Discussions Ep. 02

[@bknecht2491]

What you learn in the church is like watching a trailer to a movie. It's out of order and vague and you might think wow this movie looks really good, but it's not the same thing as watching a movie. These discussions are like actually watching the whole movie from start to finish and then making a decision to whether or not it's a good movie. Thank you for this work. It's helping me put so much to rest. And while it's making me so sad it's bringing me peace at the same time.

[@kimgoeckeritz6320]

This blew my mind. In my over 4 decades in the church I never heard 90% of the things shared tonight about the story of the obtaining of the gold plates. I was taught that Joseph went every year for 4 years and then the Angel Moroni gave the plates to Joseph, then he translated them and then he had to get some funding to get them published so he went to Martin Harris and had to show him the translated pages and then they were lost, so then God had to have them redo it. That is all I was ever taught. All this other info was very enlightening. Thank you for all your work.

[@Paulapint3]

Don't feel alone. It was over four decades for me too. 21 to 61. I was taught exactly the way you were from the missionaries and others in the ward. It's such a shame that we were lied to for so long.

[@KatD-om7xu]

Me too. I’m 63.

[@kevinmcdonald951]

Lies of omission .

[@savannahcook7246]

I’m going through and rewatching these lds discussion videos in order to this series and the work done here is easily the best source on Mormonism I’ve ever encountered. And I’ve seen a lot of them. Thank you to Mike for doing this and creating a safe and integrity driven conversation, based in church supported fact, that tells the truth, and does so well and clearly. This work is just so beyond important. It saved my life. Thank you 🙏🏽

[@robbie41090]

"You lose people from the church when you lose control of the information they have access to." That was perfect, Nemo!

[@zap...]

Control the narrative, control the people.

[@littlecheii1258]

I grew up in a Mormon household. I went to church every Sunday. I stopped going in Highschool when my parents divorced but I still believed despite having question and doubts, especially about how my skin was a curse and I was descendant from an evil people called lamanites. However I stumbled upon Mormon stories and the CES letters it only answered all my concerns and opened my eyes. It still is tough to fully dismiss the church but I still believe in God. I just don’t know where to go now for church. Or what to do. That the hard part.

[@thesimplesaguaro]

c 1:19:15 heck out How to Leave the Mormon Church by Alyssa Grenfell ❤

[@w.larson34]

@littlecheii1258 If there is an LCMS or WELS Lutheran Church near you they might be a good alternative, especially if they use the services from the hymnal.

[@ironbutterfly6835]

These three guys on the panel all work together so well! Each has a specific but essential personality trait and area of study that makes this so enjoyable and eye opening! I am not a Morman but as a Hospice home care professional I try learn as much as I can about the beliefs of my patients. At the point of death, understanding their beliefs helps me know how to comfort them. But I admit I got very “caught up “ with Mormonism during the Vallow /Daybell trial. I consider myself as a spiritual non denominational Christian that leans towards Pentecostal. In truth most denominations share tenets. This makes me question my own beliefs but not my faith. My next patient is a Native American from Comanche tribe in Oklahoma. I’m told there will be a spirit guide to guide this 93 year old lady to her final resting place. They also rely heavily on visions. Fascinating ! Thank you so much for respectful approach to Mormonism!

[@Mon-Alisa]

These episodes with Mike/LDS Discussions are sooo good! They explain everything so well. Everything makes so much more sense on this side of the fence. I like that everything shared in these episodes has been to the point and well organized, and I also love hearing the interesting comments and input from each participant. Two big thumbs up 👍 👍 Keep them coming!

[@kimgoeckeritz6320]

Couldn’t agree more with your comment!

[@astralclub5964]

The LDS Church wants people to have faith in their teachings AND to believe in the actual historicity of their claims. Faith does NOT require evidence, but claims of pre-Colombian Jewish tribes in America carving golden plates very much does!

[@SuzanneTheBossBabe]

I've been out 3 months. This episode is a lot to take in...it's overwhelming. But I'm also relieved that my thoughts and concerns about the origins of this church were something I couldn't ignore. I'm sad that my marriage will likely end, but also hopeful for my future as I won't have to live a lie.

[@markpb4767]

I'm sorry for you. I hope it's turned out OK.

[@oakemaka]

It is very sad how many marriages are crumbling and families splitting apart so the church can continue to tell its nonfactual narrative. Many people I know are in the same boat as you. I hope things work out for you.

[@DanaGunn-qr3sd]

It’s so hard to go through this while married to an LDS spouse, I left when I was single. I do know couples who stayed married even after one spouse left the LDS church so it can work but I’m sure it’s challenging. Maybe your hubby just needs time? Hugs hun, I hope you can find peace through all of this.

[@Blue-Mondays]

How is this not the definition of a long con by a true con-man. This channel helps me so much. Thank you!

[@lukegraven7839]

Yes a long con indeed.

[@Hallahanify]

I hope this series will go more into how he was able to manipulate people and pull off this con. I'm a never in, I'm just drawn to these videos because how he was able to pull this off is fascinating to me

[@InternationalMysteries360]

@@Hallahanify ditto same

[@matthewmitchell68]

Thank you for your kindness John, it’s difficult to talk about this in a neutral aspect. Your kindness towards the subject helps a lot.

[@iamjustsaying1]

Excellent panel discussion! LDS Discussions has clearly put a lot of effort into his well laid out, informative presentations. It boggles my mind that so many of us couldn't see the ridiculousness of it all while in the Mormon belief-bubble.

[@trudyburgoyne808]

Exactly!

[@iffyangel3380]

My question is WHY after knowing all this, do they remain Mormons!?

[@slickmullet3891]

Nemo is the best! So glad to see him on as a co-host!

[@KidFreshie]

Agreed. Soooooooo happy that Carah got too greedy errrrrrrrr I mean decided to leave for nebulous murky reasons ranging from mental health to focusing on tiktok. She really didn't fit and made things really awkward and cringe. Wish her the best though.

[@GeorgeStrong1925]

@@KidFreshie yah- she wasn’t forced to step down at all huh… she did freak out during melldrum- but don’t act like it was Carah… it happened during the heat of jessie and rosebud 🤦‍♀️

[@mwillis7791]

@@KidFreshieThe audacity of someone for leaving a job for such trivial reasons as income and mental health.

[@KidFreshie]

@@mwillis7791 I was being facetious. It's obvious she was fired.

[@caseyjude5472]

So much backfilling -anyone who denies this WANTS to deny it. Great show, nice to see Nemo.

[@tawnyachristensen7310]

Love these episodes! Thanks for the info and analysis! So many "thoughts make reason stare" moments! Mike and Nemo are great co hosts!

[@Vixenspirit]

Consider mine and my husband's minds blown. When I first heard about Mormon's beliefs in RE class (here in the UK twenty years ago) I thought it was wacky and not something I could ever get onboard with , but respected that this is what Mormons believed and fair play to them.. only now we discover that these are HUGE chunks of the religion that Mormons don't even know about! Mind blowing 🤯

[@heleneocleary5888]

Dr John is a charismatic and highly intelligent person. I love his programmes because he is a tolerant and caring and honest person.

[@danvogel6802]

This was a very solid discussion. On statistical probability, be careful of the gambler's fallacy. On Reformed Egyptian: Many compared the Mayan glyphs to Egyptian, but compared Indian spoken language to Hebrew. See 1 Nephi 1:2.

[@danvogel6802]

@LDS Discussions I look forward to future discussions.

[@kevinwilson4853]

@LDS Discussions vlm2 e. .haq

[@trudyburgoyne808]

Love Nemo! Keep him coming back. This is a great episode. Thanks

[@kristitimbrel189]

Thank You for all this information, and especially for your time, in putting this out there for me ! ... Knowledge is Power.

[@King_Puffleump]

How did I ever believe this was a godly man? He was one of the biggest conmen that has ever lived.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

until relatively recently, the church had a LOT of control over the information that people have access to. I left Mormonism in 2002 and even then it was difficult to find all the information that discredits the church's claims, especially compared to now.

[@justavian]

I've never been a believer, and i've only known a couple of Mormons in my life. Still, i find all of these videos completely fascinating.

[@JustMi14]

I’m late to the party but am enjoying these discussions. Thank you Mike and John. Occam’s Razor came to mind as I was listening to this episode. Occam’s Razor is a philosophy that says that the simplest, most obvious answer is the most likely one. In other words, if you need a lot of exceptions and explanations in order to come to a specific conclusion, it’s probably not the right one. The simple explanation here is that Joseph Smith made it all up.

[@markh.harris9271]

I have known about Alvin Smith, all of my life. Alvin's death event (death , date , burial , interment issues) is the "death knell" to the entire early mormon story from 1820 to 1827. The only difference between now and 50 years ago, is that 50 years ago (when I first heard of Alvin) it took much more work to unravel what is easily unraveled today with the Internet. The thing that ties everything together (the ties that bind) is that the ONLY reason early 19th century gullible country folk were willing to believe any of this crap, is that their "treasure digging" world view was so prevalent; the world view of magical thinking permeated their thought processes in ways that do not exist today, and is almost impossible to believe today (How in the world could people think this way?). Incidentally, Alvin's tomb stone is extant today; clearly showing the date of his death. The date of his death ALONE does not square with the early mormon account of the finding of the "Golden Plates". Combined with the actual dates of the Palmyra revivals makes Joseph Smith Jr (&company) and bald-faced liar. marcus

[@steveg1961]

In regard to magical thinking - this is just a prevalent thing with human minds/culture. It's certainly not something we can just relegate to the past. It's amazing to me how even now in the 21st century, in a culture where science and technology is everywhere (our societies are built on them; if they magically disappeared tomorrow our cultures would go through severe trauma) - we still find magical thinking everywhere in all sorts of ways. So while it's quite true that the early 1800s has specific forms of magical thinking that were relatively unique to that time and place - the magical thinking is still quite prevalent today, just in different forms - and in regard to gullible people, gullibility in the 21st century is alive and well.

[@markh.harris9271]

@@steveg1961 yes, no doubt

[@johnmichaelson9173]

I don't know if I've got this right but I don't understand why they didn't simply assume Alvin was with God in Heaven? I mean hearing that they wanted to take the dead body of Alvin with them to meet an Angel of God!! Who surely knew that Alvin was dead, It's just batshit crazy. I'm new to all this & I'm kinds in shock hearing about all this. It's so obviously fictitious nonsense I just don't know how Smith got away with it all.

[@markh.harris9271]

@@johnmichaelson9173 , well again , its because the simpletons in the "burned over district" wanted (needed) this to be true. The "golden" plates, the treasure protecting angle, the ritualistic magic thinking about the myth of burried treasure in the era was a perfect storm for Joseph (Sidney Rigdon, Oliver Cowdrey) to take advantage of those simple minded fools who were immersed in "treasure digging" magic. marcus

[@johnmichaelson9173]

@@markh.harris9271 Thanks for the reply. It's just amazing finding all of this out. I'm watching Grant Palmer & his "Ah Ha moment" & he's an interesting man. The way he's breaking down Smith's source material for the BoM, is fascinating.

[@alicemcnay3687]

Huge fan of LDSDiscussions. He organizes vast amounts of information from reputable sources and makes it so easy and straightforward for those of us who are not as good at compiling information.

[@bookermoron2409]

Joseph's story that he couldn't bring the plates home until he had a box with a good lock in which to put them is one of the silliest excuses Joseph ever came up with and that is a stiff competition. How long would it take for the treasure diggers or anyone else to break open the box with a sledge hammer or shooting off the lock or simply throwing the box on the ground. Indeed, when the treasure diggers supposedly found the box in Joseph Sr.'s cooper shop they just broke the box into pieces. Why anyone would believe this excuse is a mystery to me.

[@alicecoppers8980]

what would you hide it in?

[@markpb4767]

Omg, no kidding. It's so sad how people believe this bull. Smith is obviously a con man. As L Ron Hubbard said, best way to get rich is start a religion, Smith apparently agreed

[@stevemitchell8267]

@@alicecoppers8980 I would hide the worthless fake plates where no one could find them. After the treasure diggers destroyed the box, Joseph claimed he hid the plates in the woods and then in a barrel of dry beans on the way to Harmony. On the trip from Harmony to the Whitmer home in Fayette in David Whitmer's wagon, I believe Joseph said the angel transported the plates. And, of course, after the BOM was written Joseph claimed Moroni took the plates back up to Heaven. What's not to believe?

[@cydnilisette]

This was a very comprehensive overview of the problems with the BOM. The issues with these guys ENGRAVING their entire histories into metal plates, and how many plates that would take went onto my shelf when I was in about the 7th grade. They carried tons of plates from South America... ALL the way to New York. yeah, that happened. Honestly, I wouldn't think most of the people of that time were literate.

[@nicolerichman595]

Wow!!!! It’s hard to even argue these facts. Great job to you all!!! Love your podcasts!

[@christinenewman2379]

I’ve learned so much from this podcast. Thank you so much ❤

[@G-Money3563]

The deeper I get into Mormonism the more I have equal amounts of incredulity for the early Mormon “saints” and deep sympathy for Mormons.

[@hbendzulla8213]

John D, Mike and Nemo just like the great 3 Musketeers. You have knowledge and power. You have my respect for cleaning up things factually and historically. Thank you.

[@sjordan7085]

Years ago, I asked exactly seventeen LDS members what happened to the gold plates. Each one provided a different answer. How could anyone believe church doctrine if those who claim to be believers cannot get their stories straight? And, yes, as the previous poster mentioned, I was also told not to ever look up any anti-Mormon literature. Talk about control!

[@goodstory5890]

In all sincerity, it is extremely fascinating how, as one of you mentioned, that all it takes is for someone to see the truth through the lies just ONCE is enough to be able to see EVERYTHING clearly. Now when I listen to talks by the GAs I get this queasy feeling in my gut that whispers to me “lies, lies, lies and each time I feel I just lost myself and find myself in despair all over again 😩. Aloha 🌺

[@gigi1332]

Your not alone. I am still completely broken over being lied to about EVERYTHING for so long. So many years just lost to so many lies. 💔

[@goodstory5890]

@@gigi1332 thank you for your kindness and support. Aloha 🌺

[@KatieKat75]

I, too, feel Physically I’ll when I listen to the GA’s. It is so clear to me that the entire religion (all organized religions) is based on falsehoods and lies.

[@adamholloway7963]

Excellent discussion! Well worth the time to watch the entire video.

[@lauraoverstreet3961]

As a person with a bad leg; I am ever conscience, of bumpy or uneven pathways! Running w/ 60lbs. Book, from 3 men in a wooded or unpaved path seems impossible!

[@chuckkv]

QUESTION: Since Samuel Lawrence saw the Spectacles ("Urim and Thummin") first, before Joseph, does the church recognize Lawrence as a seer too?

[@gotthelfschwab1272]

I have no problem with the different versions of the first vision, but from the beginning, when I converted to the church, I always questioned, how the whole content of the book of mormom could have had space on a set of golden plates. Even though I questioned it, I never spoke it out loud.

[@salt1956]

Good point. I also learned recently that the plates of gold would have weighed 200 kilos. This can be calculated because Smith gave the dimensions of the plates. How could Smith have run away from robbers carrying 200 kilos? That's the weight of two grown men.

[@leonardojerkovic3618]

And it never came to your mind that Jesus Christ would allow 1200 years on Earth without his beleivers? Great ApostacY theory is a big lie along with all other stuff.

[@brendanelson]

This is totally against the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints. What are you trying to do. I am a convert of over 50 years and I know the book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are true.

[@gotthelfschwab1272]

@@brendanelson thanks for your message, I became a member in 1986 when I was 21. I will stay in the church, because I found the christian religion is about having a relation with Jesus Christ and God the Father and practicing daily faith and contact with Jesus. It is good to know things but it is also good to habe faith.

[@harlic8501]

This has nothing to do with this episode: Um just watched the Ted Bundy documentary on Netflix. I had no idea he converted to Mormonism when he was terrorizing Utah. Apparently the whole church stood behind him? It’s WILD. I would be interested in seeing an episode on how the Ted Bundy case affected the church or changed anything in the church? Like did they come out with a statement? Did he get excommunicated? Like imagine if they didn’t excommunicate him. But they did excommunicate you. WILD.

[@harlic8501]

Or I guess his whole ward stood behind him. (I’m a never mo)

[@SecretButterflyGarden]

That doesn't surprise me at all. To this day, the church is constantly standing up for and even trying to cover up crimes (usually child abuse/sexual abuse) committed by their high profile members.

[@anthonydelfino6171]

He converted in '75 and was excommunicated after he was convicted in court in '76. Then after his arrest he stated his religion as Methodist. But yeah... especailly when they had the policy for a time that any out LBGT person would be immediately excommunicated, compare that to this. That's the level they treat both queer folks as well as a convicted serial killer.

[@lauraoverstreet3961]

Awesome dissection of the book of Mormon. THANKS.

[@KPApothecary]

So on a nutshell, they took Emma Smith on a snipe hunt. The plates had to be golden microfiche inorder for the math to work w/number of characters, AND the characters must not repeat.

[@salt1956]

Excellent episode. Great hosts. I'd like to hear more topics from Mike.

[@scottbrandon6244]

At 1:17:16. This quote is from page 40 of the Ensign article. JS must have been in great shape to run with heavy gold plates like that. Has anyone ever estimated the weight of the plates if they were pure gold?

[@mst3kharris]

I read somewhere that the plates were roughly six by eight inches and reached a height of about six inches. Thus as a solid block the volume (heh) of the pages would be about 288 cubic inches. Pure gold weighs approximately .7 lbs per cubic inch. So as a solid block the pages would weigh about 201.6 lbs, or 91.4 kg. Even if I assume the plates only weigh 2/3 of their solid brick weight, it’s still 134 lbs or 61 kg. In other words, yes.

[@zachgarver7922]

To anyone's knowledge, has any BYU academician in any related discipline i.e. history, archeology, Egyptology, etc., ever presented research defending the authenticity of the Book of Mormon to an academic conference or symposium?

[@juliepenrod9063]

Yes actually a professor at BYU did start digging into the truth..He was Ex'ed and canned..

[@ryanhollist3950]

On the idea of running around with the plates: I played the sousaphone in marching band. We had full brass instruments that weight about 50 lbs. The first time I put one on, I could barely muster the breath to just carry it around, let alone play it. Of course I got to the physical ability to do the parades and field shows, but it is very physically demanding. Of course, even that is nothing compared to the story claimed by JS. To do what he claimed, he would have had to be in a physical condition that matches (or even exceeds?) the physical prowess of top Olympic athletes.

[@libbysunsun9561]

Like an idea, then a pause. Important ideas back to back to back

[@mountainman4859]

In the 90s I met Sandra Tanner and purchased several books from her that helped facilitate my resignation from the church. One of those books, and I wish I could remember which one, addressed the treasure diggers attempting to intercept Joseph on the hill Cumorah the night he supposedly obtained the plates. If my memory serves me, he had actually formed a treasure digging company with these contemporaries of his. They believed he had actually discovered ancient treasure os something of worth out there and was using the story of the angel to justify not sharing whatever monetary gain he got from it with them. These were not the ‘bad men’ the church referred to them as. These were his friends and business partners determined to not let him swindle them out of their cut.

[@Britbec]

In the first episode in this series, Jen said something along the lines of “Just when you thought you’d heard the worst…”. The Alvin Smith element of the story in this episode, was that for me. JS Sr. exhuming his own Son’s grave for the BOM charade is disturbing.

[@nicolerichman595]

You guys don’t need to worry about being disrespectful toward the Mormon church. You are so tactful and very respectful. Imagine if you so weren’t?? lol It would and could be much worse. Bravo guys!

[@anoriginalcreationx]

1:58:40 I came across a quote recently that has help significantly with this transition of understanding the untruths I personally believed because we had no way of really knowing what we know until now, as technology and the universal understanding of life increases.. "It is easier to fool someone, than to convince someone they have been fooled." To which is attributed to Mark Twain.. which does lead one to wonder, at whether he was speaking with any specificity at what he personally witnessed with the release of the Book of Mormon...

[@fatemeetsluck]

31:27 bruh this episode is metal af. necromancy on top of treasure magic

[@brettbair2654]

So glad that evidence clearly proves the religion to be false. A testimony of facts instead of faith.

[@sladreamer]

Can you start a playlist that has these videos so they're easy to find and in the correct order? TY!!

[@mormonstories]

Already done. Look at our playlists.

[@sladreamer]

@@mormonstories Super, found it TY so much!!!!

[@VerbenaComfrey]

I never thought I'd feel for Joseph Smith, but hearing "he was stuck with his earlier, maybe not entirely well-thought-out story shards, and now he has to backfill now that he's got the whole picture figured out" makes me nod sympathetically as a DM.

[@Hallahanify]

Dm? Dungeon master?

[@VerbenaComfrey]

@@Hallahanify Yep. Players often lap me and I have to make something make sense after the fact.

[@rin-eri]

"he basically told emma to stay in the car" XDDD

[@CriticalThinker178]

I’m watching this podcast for the first time and currently up to 30:06 so about 1/4 of the way in. Great episode thanks guys and really interesting so far but just wondering - do we know where JS came up with the idea of gold plates as opposed to say a collection of papyrus scrolls. Apologies if you cover this further in. Many thanks 🙏 😊

[@Turandot29]

These epis are so thorough ....

[@bob.love.hope1969]

You are doing God's work

[@scottbrandon6244]

Great podcast. Re. Andrew Hedges article in Ensign Jan 2001.. In the same issue there is an art depiction of the translation process on page 22. There is no partition/curtain at the table. Only JS, OC, the plates and presumably the Urim and Thummin. No breastplate. No eye glasses/interpreters..

[@scottbrandon6244]

Add to that: and no seer stone and top hat.

[@JohnJLillie]

I am Super Excited to learn of and listen to a series about truth claims.

[@TM-rk5dj]

Fascinating. Thank you

[@FieroGroos]

Mike’s the best! I watched all of your tick-tock’s Mike awesome thank you! you are powerful!

[@adamroberts1718]

I was only in the lds church for only 6 months the reason I didn’t stay was it didn’t make any sense for the start and coming from catholic family when I said I was joining the lds church they were very mad with me and said it was a cult,,, I’m glad I left the lds faith 😅😅😅

[@Latter-Day-Aint]

The sealed 2/3 plates give the believers something to look forward to being revealed just like the Church of Scientology has a OT-9 level that no one knows what it contains because the original author is now deceased.

[@NebjosaMeier]

It will always be perpetually in the future, but people are catching on this will never happen.

[@zackc3767]

3 guys in a row with guns attacked Joseph...by using the guns as clubs. Got it. Seems legit. The AI in Joseph's video game is so bad.

[@teresapitman1659]

That was my thought!! If they have GUNS, why aren't they shooting him??? (sorry for the excess punctuation.) All three guys thought they'd just hit him with the guns instead of shooting him, given that's what guns are designed to be used for? And yes, why not attack him all together?

[@johnhorner1969]

Right, why did none of them shoot him lol? Like wtf? ……😂😂😂🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[@aliceaubalmasque3645]

Love Nemo ! I think he's such a handsome and smart man. He's got a killer smile! 💖💓

[@carrot-cat1746]

Loving the idea that the gold plates would be the "live, laugh, love" of etched plate records

[@sharinmythoughts2510]

Thank you, very helpful ❤

[@texas2645]

So grateful for this. Now i need therapy! There is no way on gods earth i could share this with anyone in my family , extended family. Seriously i would be.on the black list

[@benjamingardea4511]

The math is damning. Good luck getting around that one.

[@rmandbd2]

Love this episode

[@Cali_Flowers]

Being a never-Mormon with Mormon family, I am disappointed the golden plates don’t look like dinner plates 🍽✨

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Well, they probably wouldn't be too practical as dinner plates. But they would serve quite nicely as square appetizer plates for hors d'oeuvres. I also always wanted to get a set to use as sushi plates.

[@lauraoverstreet3961]

As a child, in the church. I remember drawing a picture of dinner plates telling my mom they were the golden plates. 😄😆😂

[@Cali_Flowers]

@@lauraoverstreet3961 That’s darling! I’ve been thinking about this and I think kid me imagined the dinner plate shape (besides the name) from Sleeping Beauty. In the tale, the fairy godmothers had to eat from golden plates, and the king & queen baby parents didn’t have enough golden plates to host all the magical fairies at the baby’s blessing ~ the uninvited fairy was the one who cursed the baby! All because of a missing plate! 👑🧚🏼‍♀️ I have been imagining the LDS plates round & like engraved platters all my life. And you know, I’m still disappointed! ☺️

[@Cali_Flowers]

@@TEAM__POSEID0N Oh my gosh, sushi plates would be brilliant! Are there any on etsy? 🤗

[@djohn5528]

"Could you run with those and beat someone off?" Hahaha ha. Shit John. Love it

[@kenthknicket6500]

Well they did say the treasure Joe couldn't obtain was "slippery", so maybe the plates were a slippery slope to mutual masturbation? I'd be interested in hearing Boyd K. Packer's thoughts on this speculation.

[@bookermoron2409]

The Moroni v. Nephi references are no big deal and Joseph may have just been confused and the problem arose from the 1838 version? I completely disagree. That Joseph changed the story from Nephi to Moroni is another example of Joseph changing the stories of his celestial visitations much like the 1832 v. 1838 versions of the First Vision. I think it is nonsense to say that Joseph maybe was just confused when he wrote the 1838 version referring to Nephi or that it's the scribe's fault. Joseph obviously took great care in writing and then publishing the 1838 version. And, the Nephi reference wasn't changed to Moroni until I believe the 1870s. That is not just an unimportant detail or a result of confusion. It is another indication that Joseph was making it up as he went.

[@FranklynRichardMacyDHHS]

Things of God can only be understood by the Spirit of God. Enough said.

[@karma1511]

copout

[@ROOKFORK]

The witnesses and the Joseph Smith and Samuel Lawrence story remind of the Asch line test / conformity experiments.

[@carsonsmith5301]

John: Could you run and beat two men off 😂😂

[@littlebee5048]

Haha 😂. I thought I was the only one who heard that.

[@UseYourWordsGirlGolden]

Love this. But the ice clinking is driving me insane.

[@senorbb2150]

Was anyone else reminded of the Andy Griffith episode when Barney was forced to ride a black horse at midnight so that the superstitious hill people would call off a wedding?

[@Pay-It_Forward]

Harvard University, Lidar scanned Cumorah twice & nothing found.

[@davidl2438]

Great video. I learned much. Thanks.

[@ks4893-m8v]

John mentioned in this episode that no one saw the physical plates, that they only saw them with their spiritual eyes. That may be true with the 3 witnesses, but the 8 witnesses gave a very physical description. They very likely saw a prop set of plates. (See quote below. ) Also, Mike said in an episode I listened to recently (I think it was the one on the Kinderhook Plates) that no one saw the engravings/ figures ("Reformed Egyptian") that was supposedly on the plates. Mike may have meant when Joseph Smith allegedly first got them out of the hill, but the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses says they handled each page/ plate and saw the engravings. "Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken."

[@mckster56]

They were always covered up so they felt something but never saw

[@Geospasmic]

The thing about the spectacles cracked me up, it's like kids playing make believe. But of all the stuff surrounding the golden plates, the silliest part is that they got put into a three-ring binder.

[@JD2CYLINDERNUT]

Ole Joey spoon fed this story a tiny bit at a time because the narrative developed as people accepted it line by line. In other words, if people bought that segment he would introduce another segment. Each one built on the other. Probably the greatest con man in human history.

[@pattykake7195]

Joe Smith could definitely give Dr. Evil a run for the money….😂🤣😂 Great episode from the 3 Shelf Busters……😲.

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

I work with 40 lb bags of salt sometimes. You aren't running, jumping, fighting with only one arm while carrying the salt bag of 40 lbs.

[@chrissessions6108]

If I was an omniscient, omnipotent God, I would have had Moroni bring the plates with him on his first visit to Joseph's bedroom. You can always send Moroni to confiscate the plates if Joseph does anything irresponsible, like he allegedly did after Joseph lost the first-draft manuscript, so the plates are never in any real danger if God is watching over them. He could have even brought a lockbox with the plates for safekeeping. Or tell Joseph 4 years prior that he needs to bring a lockbox along with "the right person." Or at the very least skip the step of stashing the plates in a log by having Joseph make one trip to the hill. Better yet, leave the plates right where they are since he can apparently translate them with the seer stone just as well whether the plates are in the room or not.

[@erpthompsonqueen9130]

Thank you

[@TheBackyardProfessor]

The guardian who shocked the shit out of Joseph, couldn't shock anyone else who tried to take them? Joseph could have simply left them in the open, and they would be safe! Joseph could have DARED anyone to try and take them!

[@libbysunsun9561]

Excellent, thank you for all the information! All these facts need to digest a bit more slowly next time if possible. Just as a public speaking feedback perspective; these facts are so important. When it is rushed, it can seem like the presenters don't want the sudience to be able to clearly 'get' everything, a la the way the LDS church has their ways of hiding information. Heavy information with dates, locations etc. Would help to speak carefully. Thanks, love your work!

[@littlebee5048]

@LDS Discussions I like the pace in this video. If I want to slow it down a little I change the playback speed. Took me awhile to discover that feature on KZbin.

[@kingimatthews4481]

ive been utubing the modern day technology on Gold Mining in general, Im amazed at how much of it can be taken given modern scanners, earth digging equipment, the Azecs must have had a general idea in their time an areas , . Ive often thought about Book of Mormon stories in their search for gold or brass , in their time. To have that amount of gold used, carried about, sealed and not translated. , is a monumental task. Its been said that the stone box in which it was stored lasted for many many years, but just recently the word is it was washed away what a shame, water moving those stones from its place. .

[@peggynosbisch918]

WOW.... always moving the goal post was my Ex husband for sure ( he came from a Mormon Family) the basic stuck with him ...I was so abused and didn't know until many years later and now making connections with your Podcast and breaking down the Mormon Church and beliefs....

[@ks4893-m8v]

Such great points - why would God have Mormon and Moroni go to all the effort of creating, traveling with and burying the Gold Plates and spectacles/"Urim and Thummim" if Joseph Smith was basically barely going to use either of them? "Borrowed" Joseph Knight Sr's carriage without asking...

[@jaycie2213]

@1:40:18 I believe that in the Book of Mormon, Nephi explains that the records were written in reformed Egyptian rather than Hebrew because it supposedly allowed for more information to be engraved with fewer characters, making it practical for limited space, like metal plates. For the record, I don't believe the book was written by ancient prophets in America either. Joseph Smith is definitely the real author.

[@lilatueller]

Why didn’t JS use the seer stone to find the lost 116 pages of the manuscript?

[@TEAM__POSEID0N]

Obviously it was because the battery died. Even though there was a usb charging cord port in the stone and a usb cord had been discovered with the stone when it was found, Joseph Smith didn't know what those were for. The stone could also be recharged (like a self-winding watch) by shaking it back and forth for 3 hours. But Joseph Smith didn't find that out until after he had already given up on retrieving the 116 pages. (As for the usb cord, Joseph Smith used it to make a bracelet and gave it as a gift to Fanny Alger.) Also Moroni could have easily found the 116 pages and could have told Joseph Smith where to find them. But Moroni was on vacation in Tahiti, dealing with PTSD caused by his experiences in the battle at the Hill Cumorah. Apparently, he had suppressed his reaction to the trauma for more than a thousand years while he focused on his mission of ensuring that the golden plates would be successfully delivered to a hyper-libidinous treasure-dig scammer in upstate NY. After that mission was completed, Moroni had nothing else to focus on and the PTSD erupted with the force of a long-suppressed volcano. It was just a very unfortunate convergence of events that ensured that the 116 pages would be lost forever. Few people know that Lucy Harris used everyone of those 116 pages to roll doobies, since the crop of "special plants" that Martin had planted the previous year turned out to be quite special indeed. Unbeknownst to Martin, it was one of those "Lucy pipes" (as the couple called them) that enabled him to finally see the stuff that Joe wanted him to see, thereby making him one of the Three Witnesses. Martin was literally smoking one of the 116 pages and neither he nor Joe had a clue.

[@distantgalaxymusic1447]

If the plates were gold and were 6”x6”x9” the plates would have weighed 204 lbs. the fact that Joseph said they were 60lbs shows he never knew the true weight of gold.

[@janepoindexter4470]

Did the plates come with the contraption that looks like a flip desk calendar or did they come separately? I originally thought they were two big plates. I could probably "predict" that I am going to find a feather and could find one because birds are everywhere and finding feathers, therefore, are easy to find.

[@timandmonica]

Is there a playlist for this series? I couldn't find one on your channel's playlist section. Thanks!

[@kohlstrong]

Another benefit to a "dislocated thumb" as an injury, is that it is non-visible in most cases. I've dislocated fingers before, quickly popped them back in with little visible after effect. I think you guys go out of your way a little to point to a potential cause for the dislocated thumb, but the most likely answer there, is that the injury itself was a lie. If I tell you I dislocated my thumb earlier playing Ultimate Frisbee, why would you question that? You wouldn't. I'm beating a dead horse here. The dislocated thumb most likely didn't actually occur.

[@heatherracho]

I believe in the unicorn 🦄❤ I believe 🦄 16:28

[@tinakirkman2742]

They have found a copper dead sea scroll in cave 3. It tells of treasure and It was originally 8 feet long. It's in a museum now. They had to cut up to unroll it due to its fragile condition.

[@Pay-It_Forward]

48:30 Not 2nd Sight, Magic Mushroom assisted sight. Maybe shacking spores in front of their noise as they have their eyes closed praying?