Runescape's Oldest Cult | The Order of Cabbage

[@zoox101]

100k hand picked cabbages by 1 person is actually nuts

[@deankiebooms494]

its not that crazy lets say u can pick like 500/hour then its only a 200hour grind which isnt that much compared to other things in this game like 200mil mining. Not saying i would do it though 😂

[@tothepast]

If you really think about it, this puts in perspective how nuts this game is to others. It only seems nuts bc the cabbage is useless in game. But if cabbage picking was a skill, one cabbage picked would needed to give roughly 131 xp for him to achieve 99 cabbage. That seems pretty OP compared to other skills, even if you would need to bank them to cash in the xp.

[@citricdemon]

@@deankiebooms494 in two hundred hours you could learn to speak an acceptable level of Chinese. Yet he instead he picked fake cabbage. His life is finite and this is how he spent it

[@lm-Wilhelm]

@@citricdemon If it made him happy who the hell cares

[@citricdemon]

@@lm-Wilhelm that's entirely valid. I'm just remarking that it's notable to me.

[@parrotpy5346]

I was in the cult for like 5 years, so many good memories from my highschool years. Aside from the pattern picking and the cabbage bombing, we would have some forum discussions on who to let into the group. And a meeting would be held with a bunch of people who got online, one of the elders would hold a speech while the others would stand in a line. Then they would announce one or more of the people just picking cabbage with us to become official members. There would be a party and everything, I remember mine so fondly lol. I picked cabbages for what seemed like weeks after school ( not the 8 hour tick manip style, just casual picking for an hour or two and chatting with folks ) before I was let in, as they would only let in people deemed nice enough. One of the few things the GE helped bring down, was the ability for such a group to exist. Because after its introduction I remember one member just collecting like 100k cabbages buying them from the GE within what seemed like a single month. In its wake a bunch of other collectors and collections became viable though, so I can't be bitter about it. This video reminded me of so many old usernames that I had forgotten, so many events we used to do, until life took away the time to play, and inactivity would slowly creep in. It was a great time, and a great set of memories, but it's in the past now. Emergent gameplay like this just evolved into things like speedrunning, challenge runs, area restrictions and so much more. The new generation of gamers will keep inventing things beyond the efficiency grind, and each step is crazier and more fun than the next. Thanks for giving me a brief hint of nostalgia with this video. You've made my evening :)

[@Mpacitto]

Thanks for sharing that memory! Oh my I forgot how we inducted people like that.... like we would watch them and then make it a surprise moment, as they picked. Those were always amazing moments to see people get so stoked for joining something so silly we created together.

[@ethan7353]

Man what a great perspective on nostalgia. Thanks for that!

[@RandomGuy0400]

I wish I had gotten to experience this... Sounded like fun...

[@Mpacitto]

@@RandomGuy0400 I mean, nothing stopping you from experiencing it now. Just gotta pick 100's of thousands of cabbage.

[@RandomGuy0400]

@@Mpacitto yeah but not many people are doing it anymore, and doing it with large groups of people was half the fun

[@wilsonquinones1880]

there is even a cabbage cape now in the game . thats the craziest part . good for them

[@Mpacitto]

Yeah I remember the cabbage cape coming out and we were like: ummmmmm it's not red tho.... Jagex trying to throw us a bone and we were like: "NOPE"

[@phylippezimmermannpaquin2062]

there is a whole cabbage set in rs3. the best part is that it legit looks great

[@joyeuse8524]

@@phylippezimmermannpaquin2062 being honest, it's not black, the cabbage staff would make a good addition though

[@blobbem]

The cape is even somewhat useful as it has some defence buffs, like +2 range, so it's pretty useful as a cape for F2P.

[@rocktheworld2k6]

@@phylippezimmermannpaquin2062 There's an actual cabbage god in rs3, too.

[@eurosonly]

This is so wholesome. Back when fun was had doing random shit together instead of min-maxing sad buckets per hour as an iron meme.

[@LG-ro5le]

@Michael Place then they get to end game after ‘efficiency’ grinding only to realise the grind is most of the game and quit.. there is no point caring about ‘efficiency’ just play the damn game with other players and have fun

[@Lolbama2012]

Then stop associating with people that play like that and play your own way. Wait, no. Then you couldn't talk about the gOoD oLd DaYs

[@markdowy1]

Lol tell that to my clan, one homie is at 333k snowballs

[@toledo6036]

@@Lolbama2012 found the bot

[@AdamOwenBrowning]

@@Lolbama2012 it's that the whole culture of the game is gone and mechanics or new things exist that kill incentive to play like this. For example this cabbage-collecting kind of dies when you can buy things off an infinite stock market with the grand exchange. Item collectors now need to pick items that aren't traded on the grand exchange, like burnt food or crushed gems. You can't just "find people who play the game like its the year 2009" because it isn't 2009 any more, the game and its mechanics are different.

[@linger111]

As a fellow cabbage picker and collector, I'm glad to see the cabbage cult getting some recognition. One day the people will return to their roots and re-cultivate the order of the cabbage. Crescite spiritum vestrum in brassica agris

[@Mpacitto]

We take the lessons we learned about community and diligent work for no gain, and I like to think this taught people to continue this spirit in our real lives. SO in effect, cabbage lives on outside of RS.

[@TommieTheCommie]

I love cabbage

[@RandomGuy0400]

The one time the Google translate button doesn't pop up... The letters, mark, what do they mean!?

[@linger111]

@@RandomGuy0400 Grow your spirit in the cabbage fields

[@mtcoiner7994]

The hell with it,count me in!

[@AaronJLong]

I remember filling my inventory with cabbage, and going into the wilderness with monk robes and a Dragon Longsword as my protected item as this was before the whip or Dragon Scimitar, and just attacking people in the deep wilderness. I always wondered how they felt after defeating the 1-item PKer only to be greeted by a stack of cabbages as their reward.

[@trapghosty]

You've given me an idea

[@andrewmorris7394]

I remember being a kid walking by cabbage patches and thinking "wtf are these guys doing?" lmao Honestly, these were RS glory days. Everything is about efficiency now, but back in these days we just had fun. I spent 1000s of hours on an account with worse stats/bank than my new OSRS account with 200 hours. I miss these days. Just having fun with people on the internet. No stress.

[@Mpacitto]

It takes a lot to break people out of their patterns. Hope you can find a small way to bring in a little cabbage into your life, and do something just for you and friends.

[@johnglow7845]

I definitely ran into them at some point and I miss those days as well, thank you for helping to create such found memories Micheal the cabbage crew rocked! ☺

[@AndyKPOV]

Some thing I do the 05 way just cause it's muscle memory. Lol

[@callmegeorge]

Ah the old days. I think I was one of the people helped on help a noob day! I had started around Easter 05 or 06, whichever year had the egg ring that I missed by a week. Some random person just gave me a full set of black armor with a black scim. It really made my day back then. Since then there’s been quite a few times where I’ve gone to F2P worlds and hung around the low level areas just handing out a couple million coins to whoever accepted the trade request.

[@montanathreehunna]

yeah any one who trained on monks back in the day would remember the cabbage cult lol. they were some nice weird people lol

[@eurosonly]

So this dude was the first item collector before the obsession with burnt food came along?

[@GeekBeerRS]

Nah I wouldn't quite say that. Burnt food collectors and weird item collectors definitely existed back then, I just wouldn't say their numbers are as high as these days.

[@Mpacitto]

Considering I was playing when I recall there being 50 people online on one server.... I don't recall the burnt food thing. But yeah, since items have been in games, people have collected them. So no doubt people did weird things before me

[@Paul-kt1nx]

Around 2000, Jagex briefly implemented an automatic vulgarity filter. During that time “cabbage” was briefly used as a substitute for curse words.

[@mack4691]

Jagex would go on to honor the cult with April fool's jokes like the cabbage rune and brassicas prime, the god of cabbage.

[@ENCHANTMEN_]

I remember thinking "herblore" was "herbivore" as a kid and trying to level it up by eating cabbage

[@ryans1429]

I actually use to play in world 7 & 8 back in 2005 when I started and vaguely remember seeing these guys occasionally picking cabbage. Funny to see this as a video now. Awesome content, keep it up!

[@Wickedreptiles]

Same here man! It means we’re getting old. Just shows how long this game has been around! I was 13 in 05 and had just started playing now 30 and I still log on from time to time to stroll down memory lane.

[@therunescapehistorian]

Tyvm

[@johnglow7845]

One of them taught me how to pick cabbage, I honestly thought they were trolling lmfao

[@The_RSD]

Hey, I see some of my old Unregistered HyperCam 2 recordings! Glad I was able to contribute to the history. Awesome video, thanks for documenting our glory days. Kah Bah Gee

[@bretclaar1663]

We should honor the cult with a big player event

[@furirinprimus]

This is the reason for brassica prime in rs3 and the other brassica references, and we got a cabbage cape in osrs

[@drylumtheartist]

Yum not yuck

[@Adeluz]

Btw, a group of us still play OSRS to this day. You can find us in-game at our CC “Former Cult” if interested in connecting :)

[@honoredelite5677]

To find out a random side bit of lore in a game I've spent years playing that would have probably never come back up as a topic is just amazing.

[@Mpacitto]

Yeah.... it's funny how small actions make huge waves. Someone posted a reddit post a year ago, which made me nostalgic and felt like posting a response... some people recommended this channel, and I said: "why not?" and now here we are.

[@Adulese]

Long live OoC! The cult gave me some of the fondest memories I have of my early teenage years. KAH-BAH-GEE!!!!

[@andrewg1173]

You should do the Bronze Clan. Similar to the cabbage guys, but started in 2008 and are still active waging war on fishermen.

[@Mpacitto]

Imagine how much greater they would be if they put down their warring ways, and just picked cabbage?

[@Sicaughtik]

Your videos are so awesome and informative. I've already watched several hours worth in the last week and can't wait to see what you come out with next.

[@MegaChickenfish]

The fact that all this started in *Edgeville Monastery,* which is canonically a holy site to Brassica Prime you can get farming xp for replanting after its senseless destruction by Saradomin in RS3, makes this all the sweeter.

[@SuperZebezian]

This is the exact opposite of the Efficiencyscape mentality that is in-game now. I would still like a video on the rise of Efficiencyscape if you could make it!

[@therunescapehistorian]

I've definitely thought about it as that is a good suggestion. It's just extremely hard to pin down the exact origins of that mindset and playstyle.

[@SuperZebezian]

@@therunescapehistorian I don't think you have to pin down the exact origins of it (and it's probably not possible), but I think there are probably some major components that have arisen through the years. Some things worth looking at: -Competition for High Scores -Grand Exchange -Tick manipulation -Increase in "AFK" training methods -Updates that add a new best exp/hour method (I would presume that as time has gone on, "new" content will tend to be the best for given skills or training methods) -Tools that track exp/hour -Notable efficiency-minded players who have made an impact on the game -Aging player base wanting to get the most out of their playtime Lots can be done with the topic. Hopefully some of those ideas can give you a jump-start.

[@urethaneslanger]

@@SuperZebezian and to add to it, passive skills such as farming or hunter (bird houses) and rewards like collecting sand, etc. i remember the day farming released, a bunch of us stood around the patches just alching and chatting while crops grew. now you dont see anyone there for more than 60 seconds.

[@belstar1128]

In other mmos like wow it came in 2010 but from what i remembered it did not happen in runescape until later. i quit in 2011 so 2012 to 2015 are a gray area for me in runescape by that time it became just as bad as in wow.

[@belstar1128]

@@urethaneslanger When i do those things i am usually multitasking and not paying attention to the game. back in the 2000s i did not realise i could do that and with my slow internet and pc it may have not even been possible. and i had to share my pc too so if i was not on the pc they would just take it. but being able to level while multitasking is a big reason why i still play runescape compared to more modern fast paced mmos.

[@billyp7746]

I got a great idea for a video! All the most nostalgic items we remeber playing the game when we are young, items that people sought after or rares , idk just idea love your videos

[@chickenismyhero]

Joined the cult when i was 12, (iluvbjaalot/ooc noodle) I’m 29 now and still regularly speak to a bunch of members of the OoC, some of the best friends I’ve had. Have met a bunch of awesome people IRL and was even in one of my fellow cult members weddings. We’ve gone from several social media platforms over the years but we’re still kicking to a capacity. As Ade said, we’re trying to come together as a new clan, called Former Cult on OSRS. Loved seeing our little groups history!! I remember it taking me a long time to become Acolyte rank because one of the the OoC rules was no cursing LOL

[@onemorekayaker1934]

So THIS is why there's all those weird cabbage items in Django's store! Lol

[@michaelj4256]

I actually ran into one of these cabbage hoarders... I wish I could remember his name. It had cabbage in it. Lol. But he traded me and showed me a green stack of cabbages years ago.. blew my mind.

[@sengoku_fin]

Doodlebug was also a british nickname for the V1 missile, so Souten would be interpretated saying "a literal cruise missile must be used in order to get rid of the cult"

[@CMK-BigFoot-1420]

Can't wait for the cabbage picking skill

[@Mpacitto]

it's already in the game. And it's measured by how much fun you have in the game ;)

[@HighFlyer96]

Well.., cabbage has 7 letters. Coincidence? I think not!

[@Mpacitto]

This dude is onto something.

[@adamglaze352]

Cabbage merchant: "My cabbag-!" BlackBane: "Oh, here you go."

[@grumio531]

Found your channel since you started uploading a month ago and it's one of my favourite OSRS channels, keep up the good work bud

[@gamekeyp]

This is the funniest memories for some of these people in gaming.even in life..I envy em

[@Mpacitto]

Yeah. This video is special to me. I hope you can take something positive from it for you too!

[@knopf44]

I haven't played runescape in years, but i will download it again right now just to pick a cabbage

[@Mpacitto]

Doodlebug foiled again!

[@RedZone0401]

Yum not Yuck! KAH BAH GEE Yum not Yuck! KAH BAH GEE

[@zoidsfan12]

Now I know the origin behind the cabbage cape item. Funny thing is it defo lives on because people collect draynor cabbages to this day. Whenever my hcim is just sitting in f2p I like to just collect items, it feels like it has an extra prestige cuz I can't just buy them on the ge. So I have stacks of cabbages, draynor cabbages, and a few other items.

[@EnigmaticEncounters420]

Kah-bah-gee!! I used to pick cabbages with these guys over at the big fally patch.

[@Mpacitto]

glad to have had you stop by. You made it a little more fun!

[@SneccTheSnake]

Kah-bah-gee!!

[@Isa-vi5rt]

Wow! I remember the cabbage filter, it's one of my most found memories of Runescape. I had no idea of this cult however, it seemed like such a group to be in. Great video!

[@2lstGun]

I'm pretty sure Cabbage may have actually helped me get my start way back in the day. Random person gave me some mithril, food, and... cabbages.

[@amyyaku5022]

The only cult I would want to join 😂

[@Mpacitto]

Yeah... cults are not fun. But this one sure was! We made it a big effort to make sure people knew that cult was just the name for fun, and that any sort of hero/idolizing of anyone didn't happen, and drew a hard line on it

[@THEmickTHEgun]

Its 2023 and I'm watching a video about Runescape and cabbage.

[@Mpacitto]

It's 2023. And I'm replying to a comment about Runescabe and cabbage.

[@fadew55]

There's an overwatch streamer named Kabaji. And his alt account is cabbage, pronounced kabaji

[@KeckBoyardee]

really glad you’re back

[@MegaChickenfish]

The first player to get 99 cabbagepicking before it was even released (on April Fools day).

[@TurtleRaven]

I remember hanging out with them a bit back in the day, it was a fun, chill way to spend some time.

[@TheBrotado]

This is my favorite video of yours to date.

[@VonDelacroix]

y'know, I never even thought to ask why there was cabbage all over the place and people yelling stuff, I just accepted that people were weird and went on with my day.

[@dantedeloden]

Cabbage is spelled with 7 letters.

[@Mpacitto]

👀

[@jadiellima8922]

Colonello basically reuploaded your video with his voice on it. Same script.

[@x9__]

Holy cow, you just unlocked memories of this from 2004/2005.

[@Kindofsavvy]

This whole thing sounds like a fever dream.

[@Mpacitto]

Yeah, I didn't do drugs, but I did pick cabbage. so checks out.

[@SenatorStink]

This is wild, I remeber my friend and I stumbling across a cabbage bombing im pretty sure in Falador on world 7 or 8, we were playing at his house he was using his moms desktop and I was logged onto his laptop, tears of laughter andKAH BAH GEE was being screamed from the rooftops. We only ever saw one and it was glorious. To see a video on these guys makes my heart happy as we truly were just playing for fun.

[@NachozMan]

Cabbage is a superior leafy green to be fair

[@jamesross9832]

I was in this cult, and bombing cities was my most memorable childhood experience.

[@azazeldeath]

As someone that played in the extremely early days. Especially when the profanity filter made you say cabbage I wasn't shocked cults sprouted around them. So many rumours spread in the early days about how they must do something special etc. I remember vividly when rune came out. A rumour went around how if you combined a rune 2h with x cabbages it'd make a flaming rune 2h

[@GoneNutty]

Me as a 9 year old child asked zezima one time for 1 item for free I could keep forever, (we were in lumbridge basement) he then picked up the cabbage by the chest and traded me it…. I still have this cabbage in my bank to this day

[@GoneNutty]

This was “2005”

[@foobazabar]

Ironically that cabbage probably has more value than most NFT's.

[@GoneNutty]

@@foobazabar if I can prove this story real yes I’m sure I could sell it for a partyhat set Santa hween set and cracker in 1 trade 😂😂

[@GoneNutty]

@@foobazabar if only jagex would send me a screenshot of my trade log with zezima 😭

[@Mpacitto]

That's amazing. I hope that cabbage continues to bring you joy. :D

[@Mpacitto]

(Blackbane) Oh my gosh. This video was beyond my expectations. "He didn't have a lot going on after Highschool" I literally died laughing at how true this was, and love that you were able to call that out. I think everyone playing Runescape was a little lost in life, and the OoC was the net that caught me, and others. This video was so good, because it was super objective, even helping me undo a false suspicion I had that the 'cabbage' persona Andrew had was somehow taken from us. The amount of hours to actually dig all this up, reveal new things I never knew, as well as make all 7-10 years of our life make coherent sense.... there is as much love put into this video as we put into the cabbage. Thank you man, you do great work. Kah bah gee brother! :D 🟢🟢🟢🟢🟢🟢🟢

[@bable6314]

The man, the myth, the cabbage. Kah Bah Gee!

[@Mpacitto]

@@bable6314 Kah Bah Gee My dude ;)

[@FranNyan]

Such a vivid flashback of old silly times in game. Never was part of that cult (we had our own silly fun time cult with pointy hats) but I remember having a good laugh at the bombings and chants. Silly buggers in Runescape was always a good time.

[@MerryMichaelmas]

Rest In Peace to the Order.

[@Mpacitto]

Thanks, but as long as cabbages are still picked... we are still not dead, but live on forever. lol ;)

[@landonamos7243]

I don’t know if you said it in the video, but there are also 7 letters in the word “cabbage”

[@Tialait]

Kah Bah Gee my brothers.

[@Mpacitto]

Kah Bah Gee brother!

[@lolxmew6114]

Kah-bah-gee WE RISE

[@Mpacitto]

WE PICK.

[@bozobebop5859]

RuneScape will forever rock

[@sanddoom2089]

I was young when playing. I think it was around 2004, when I logged in to continue mining to get materials for blacksmithing the entire mine was flooded with cabbage. If anyone witnessed this as well please tell me as my memory is poor and can’t remember if it actually happened.

[@SargeWolf010]

I'm guessing this "clan" had something to do with the cabbage cape and cabbage spell book?

[@bable6314]

The Cabbage Capes and Brassica Prime in RS3 are an homage to the Order, yes.

[@Bidmartinlo]

"If you could show the cabbage that I planted with my own hands to your emperor, he definitely wouldn't dare suggest that I replace the peace and happiness of this place with the storms of a never-satisfied greed." - Diocletian

[@c0mmment]

please do a video on the other big clan... the Bronze Clan that stays around south of grand exchange

[@min7sharp5]

Absolutely love all the videos! One interesting runescape character to look into might be SonOnOldschool, just as a tipper 😎👌.

[@ImadZeryouh]

I made a member tilt when I picked cabbage to PK.

[@KleeM]

I cannot take this shit seriously. People dedicated their time to pick up Cabbage and make lore out of it. What the fuck lmaoooo

[@g6qwerty]

Oh man I rememeber seeing a cabbage bomb before and seeing people in those outfit picking cabages, dam now it all makes sense years later...

[@callmegeorge]

Absolutely beautiful. Just random people, enjoying the scenery. Not a dragon in sight, just living in the cabbage fields.

[@Nonskiller]

I miss this cult; I was always around and we always hanged out in world 7. It was everyday.

[@mtcoiner7994]

As an OG OSRS player that didn't know about this, it is absolutely hilarious and fantastic. RS is a pretty cool game.

[@codylawson1257]

Is this why there is a cabbage cape now? Always wondered about that

[@Adeluz]

Kah bah gee !!!!!!!!!!!@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

[@Mpacitto]

KBG Adeluz! Nice to see ya!

[@WoaD123]

Lol daaang Blackbane and the OoC! I remember those early days. I used to spell things in the cabbage patch outside of Falador with cabbage.

[@Sifeus]

Pre GE a lot of collections held a lot more social weight. I collected beer glasses I'd inherited from another player, then passed it on to someone else when I quit.

[@byronsmothers8064]

This explains an element of a non-canon quest.

[@Youifer]

Is that abes odyssey music playing at 1:15?

[@vinnyzan1]

Cabbage picking is going to be the new skill that comes to osrs

[@troglodyte4207]

Old school MMO shenanigans just hit different

[@Rexcelot]

Cabbage is used for my Player owned Farm, its great for them veggie feeds.

[@DigitalTsukiko]

Things like this in mmorpg's are what keep me playing them, something so silly being so wholesome.

[@sygos]

Are you gonna give a shoutout to Charborg for his cabbage religion video?

[@Mpacitto]

I think I saw that video. That was..... interesting.

[@milat9287]

Is there an official opinion on the cabbage cloak from Django? Figured since they already used a cloak in their outfit, they'd have to choose whether to change or reject the new cloak

[@Kelpwoud]

No mention of the cabbage quest in rs3 and the litteral addition of a cabbage god? :(

[@Jacob_the_Dabbler]

The quest wasn't mentioned but the god was, you missed it lol

[@nakenmil]

I love game trivia like this.

[@austinwilburn1772]

“They hated him because he spoke the truth”.

[@mikec5400]

wait so was brasica added because of this?

[@Mpacitto]

I think it's more of a Jagex put a little weirdness out there, we ran with it and gave them permission to do what they probably wanted to do in their hearts: be weird. :)

[@Blucario90]

No way did you use music from Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus? I think you also used music from Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee which I think is super cool, I don't see many videos use this music.

[@Mpacitto]

Ooo baby it's an odd world. is how the cat stevens song goes I think.

[@roshango125ab]

A lot of players seem to forget the runescape is at the end of the day, an RPG. Roll playing. Finding the most efficient way to do something is useful. But guys like the cabbage cult embrace the creative aspect. Side note, just something on my mind but I think the area that players are worst about this is construction. You can build an amazing house with elaborate dungeons and party rooms any way you want. And a ton of people just do 1 floor, bare minimum useful items and room. Why? Because it saves like 1 second on the instance loading. You guys are boring. Embrace the cabbage

[@MCAQUIN0]

Bro I freaking love runescape. It's just such a wholesome game

[@adarrm]

This might be my favourite RS video ever - just come off the back of a He Box Jonge max cape speedrun which really contrasts how some people play 😂 You're absolutely right though, fun is something the community is missing a lot of.

[@anonym1984]

I remember seeing a cabbage bomb back in the day, I didn't know the reasoning behind it and my English wasn't good enough to find out at the time so I kinda just forgot until now. Really cool to find out why there were so many fucking cabbages that one day over a decade and a half ago.

[@rangetpc]

A cult within a cult . Cultception

[@supernova0513]

the word "cabbage" (or "cabbageS") is spoken at least 85 times in this video... i might've miscounted. lmfao

[@Wifi_Cable]

*checks date* Not April 1st? Well didn't see that one coming.

[@Mpacitto]

No one did.

[@miciso666]

did u know theres 3 different cabbages. u got the normal. the holy/blessed and the draynor one. this one also gives a buff. that was for the longest time the only buffs f2p could get. which was also a beer mind bomb and stout. the cabbage is +1 defense :D

[@patchnotesforlife]

Oh man, so THIS is what that was? I remember playing the game and seeing all these cabbages pop out in the middle of varrock.

[@equious8413]

This is the kind of organic "make your own fun", lightning in a bottle developers have tried to capture for years. Lol

[@tylerlouis9650]

How can I get a copy of this cabbage Bible?