Golf Ball Roll Back Disaster

The golf ball roll back introduced by the USGA and R&A has pro and amateur players worked up. Is is a total disaster or is a golf ball roll back needed to save golf courses and bring more young people into the game....
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[@richarddavenport1838]

Dr Darkstar is spot on. Dont make golf harder for the amateur golfer or tell them to tee shorter.. restrict the pros if thats the issue. Tge governing bodies are seriously out of touch with the grass routes

[@richjh9]

That’s what they tried to do. It’s the pro golfers who are out of touch. They basically used the amateur golfers as a shield and now the ball is going backwards for all of us.

[@terrymingle552]

85% of revenue generated at our local course comes from players using the most forward tees that are available. They are going fishing.

[@julianelliott]

Forget about balls or clubs golf to expensive kids play but 25 to 40 year olds don't 😂😂😂

[@dennismcdowell4520]

What you are missing is making the game more difficult “frustrating “ for the average guy will kill this game

[@isambo400]

No it wont. The average golfer sucks and will continue to suck

[@poocrayon4588]

The ones whining about the rollback are those who are already frustrated - that's why they think having all the best equipment will help them. It wont, if they were decent they wouldnt give a crap

[@chevy4x466]

The balls go too far. The courses I grew up on r ruined. U practically need a helmet on some of these courses. I preferred the days on 230 yd drives. 400 yard par 4 was a challenge

[@poocrayon4588]

@@chevy4x466 Agree and that's coming from someone who is late 20's. What's the point of hitting the ball 60 extra yards? It's not like 250 yards isn't a long way away. It just makes the courses stupid long where all driving holes take forever to walk or else your pitching into everything.

[@jhawker2895]

They will never rollback balls for Non-Professional golfers. They expect amateur golfers to stop playing a longer ball when they are trying to hit it longer ever day. The revolt will be world wide and LOUD.... You expect a 16 handicap to go to 20... They think amateur golfers who can reach a par 5 in two strokes to give that eagle putt? Cold day in H... before they will play a new ball... It will only apply to Professional Golfers in the end... Watch and see...

[@944clogue]

The roll back isn't designed for amateurs.

[@derekwhyle1884]

@@944clogueno, but they’re going to suffer it two years after the pros.

[@poocrayon4588]

It wont even make any differences to amateur golfers handicaps. You think a 16 handicap hits the ball consistently enough to even notice the distance change on pure shots? lol no

[@christabor8662]

Not going well is an understatement. I’m an aspiring hard working , training golfer. And I’m demoralized and p’d off! I finally earn my way to get 300 yrd drives then this ?! Not to mention irons going shorter. I’m not touching golf for a while til I sort this out whether I still pursue golf! This is a disaster !!

[@wgsmit02]

something you will learn is that distance matters but not as much as hitting the SAME distance each time

[@1362pc]

'Training' golfers not supposed to hit the ball 300yds

[@1362pc]

I got to a 1 h'cap and was not a long hitter....its about hitting fways and greens and having a good short game...

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

Your gonna have to get a little mentally tougher if you want to get serious in this game.

[@Groovethumper69]

I think they’ll tinker with compression and weight so a new ball won’t be over compressed by amateurs but high swing speeds will massively deform it at impact which robs it of ball speed for the high swing speed player, but leaves the lower swing speeds alone.

[@andynaz5631]

So make everyone play with Noodles.😂😂😂

[@Groovethumper69]

@@andynaz5631 essentially, but they’ll have better covers. They say that many of the softer compression balls will already be conforming when the time comes. So I guess if you wanted to find out what it will be like just go buy a box of noodles, duo soft, etc. They feel good but I miss the spin on my wedges.

[@blehoo1]

100% agree with Dark Star here. It's a crazy decision and disenfranchises so many people. My Sunday best gets me 240 - I don't want to be back nearer 215-220 with my irons losing distance too and I know I speak for so many clubbing golfers here. The game is now going to get just so much harder and that can't be good in terms of attracting new players and growth.

[@poocrayon4588]

the problem is constantly making it easier and eaiser - if it hadnt of got to this point then you would think that 220 was a decent drive. They olnly made the ball so juiced and clubs so big so guys like you could feel like big men in the first place - and then tech keeps increasing and it leads us to the problem of too much distance. Just learn to play better.

[@cluelessreacts3984]

Great content guys. I loved the constant reference to the way the Scots designed how to play. Now I'm a 67 yr old Scot and sadly no longer play but I used to manage a course in Yorkshire. Rudding Park. The point is that I used to play a regular Stableford with two yanks and an Aussie. I scored more point playing pitch and run when the others were trying to wedge it close. It's all in the genes😂

[@richardcole4776]

I get some of B Team's points, but I tend to agree more with Dark Star on this topic. Also, the argument about reducing grass upkeep by shortening the course doesn't really work for me. Very often the back tees have minimal grass between them and the next set of tees - they're just a tee box stuck back amongst some trees or desert. The amount of fairway will not be greatly reduced if courses are shortened. I, for one, have no intention of changing golf balls until I've ran out of my current collection, which is several year's worth (I no longer play competitions, so who cares what I play). edit: Fyi, I appreciate that this discussion was more equally balanced in terms of Dark Star having more mike-time. I truly enjoy this channel, and hope you keep putting out regular content.

[@michaelmarchese3362]

I think you’re underestimating the rather primal instinct in humans to want to propel objects far down range. I’m convinced it’s in our genes. Archery. Artillery. Etc. Watch people witnessing a trebuchet hurling a piano 300 yards - they go CRAZY. A rollback cuts to the deepest attractions to the game - the feeling of triumph at sending a missile soaring far into the distance.

[@billmoyer3254]

I could get behind trebuchets replacing my long irons..... little tiny day bag sized trebuchets

[@jeffreychernes3193]

Isn’t this also giving the longer hitters an even greater advantage? Player 1 hits driver/pw into par 4. Players 2 hits driver/8i. Now (after rollback) player 1 hits driver/8i and player 2 hits driver/5i since all clubs are going to go shorter. Can pros or competitive ams really be able to hang or beat someone hitting 3 clubs more into holes? Seems like the short guys will get penalized even more…

[@SiLoMixMaster]

If they play on same length of courses as they do now then it will definitely give an advantage to longer hitters, hence why the snake Rory is so vocal in favour of it 🤣

[@blehoo1]

So true

[@kanointhephilippines8082]

I'm an old man now, I play the front tees (5550) yards and I'm always between 80-85 strokes per round. For me to lose 20-25 yards per drive and have reduced iron distances will change my game and not in a good way. Lets hope we can have a choice when the time comes.

[@blehoo1]

It's tragic for the older golfer - I'm going to feel it at 53. Just not right to penalise us all when we're not causing courses to lengthen.

[@derekwhyle1884]

They’re stating a distance loss of around 5% so every hole you play will become 5% longer, in theory ?

[@fusemunk]

Great chat guys. I'm not with Dark Star. As a global game we've always had changes in balls. Small UK ball versus Big USA Ball, we played both in the 70's you could choose in the UK amateur game. Balata was big for a while great spin, then high compression v non, then low spin good in the wind. Putting tee markers at front will cover most. Dark Star you'll get older and still enjoy the game into your 70/80's because there is so much more than long drives. We will all adapt quickly, young amateur guys will start to learn how to hit a 5 iron into a Par 4, too many golfer carry 3/4 wedges - that's not right! Most Scottish courses are now too short and rely on weather to create a challenge. Young Tom Morris made the first eagle at the 1st hole at his home course Old Prestwick - 578 yards, he holed with a spoon (3 wood) for his third shot, a bit harder than a 5 foot putt - 10 a penny.

[@1362pc]

The golf ball speed limitation MUST happen. Pros hitting drive 8 iron on par 5s is insane....Since the ProV1 type ball and big headed metal drivers, technology alone has added 50+ yds to drives. 200 yd 7 irons is crazy. The first time I hit a prov1 in 2002 was unforgettable...another 30 yd on drives v the soft ball I was playing. If the rule changes don't happen, its only a matter of time before 400yd drives are normal on tour, and courses become drive and pitch...thats not golf.

[@squidlesfiddles]

Grandpa from his couch...... just quit golf boomer

[@1362pc]

Why don't you show your name champion? Scared? Who's quitting golf?

[@derekwhyle1884]

@@1362pcignore him. Irritating little sh**s get everywhere

[@poocrayon4588]

agreed, it's only dorks who want to feel like they're big men who hit the ball a long way (but dont) who have a problem with this. But your wrong about one thing, I'm 30 and play with clubs from the late 70's and have used old balls - and I can hit a 7iron 200 yards if I smash it with a draw quite easily.

[@stephenpearce7058]

You will make the game less fun and more difficult for the mid to high handicappers. We have always had the big hitters and you are helping them more. I may as well pack in playing. I love when I can hit a ball a decent length. Don’t take the fun out of it. The game is not broken so leave it alone.😮 play in Scotland and a lot of golfers will not reach the fairway. The kids I know love to get distance from the ball then they get to like the game that’s the basics. Leave the game alone.

[@rickproctor6693]

Tony Lima was the man. He was new school and they call him champagne Tony for a reason!

[@robertbotelho7223]

The roll back will impact the seniors most. Dr. Darkstar is right. I have several former golfing partners that have quit as their distance has diminished. With the roll back the golf community will lose tens of thousands of rounds if not hundreds of thousands. Due to pride many won't play from the front tees. Who gave the ruling bodies the right to control word golf? The ruling elites represent the USA and EU not the Pacific rim, Asia, India, Australia. The ruling elites do not care about the golfer that plays once or twice a week. The golf history is rich with the popularity of golf seeing a boost when there is an iconic bomber ala Francis Ouimet, Bob Jones, Sam Snead, Arnie, Jack, Tiger and now Bryson Dechambeau. Stupidity is not learned it is inherited. The ruling bodies are stupid.

[@MikeBodo]

We're going to make the game of golf worse and less enjoyable for 99.9% of the golfing public to account for the .01% of golfers who play the game for a living and hit the current ball too long. There's absolutely no logic in that. I'll go from hitting an 8 iron I can lanuch high and hold a green with from 140 yds. to a lower launching 6 or even 5 iron that I'll struggle to keep on the green. Nope. I'll just buy illegal balls from whoever I can and not play tournaments.

[@1362pc]

Golf existed low long before 2001 when the ProV1 type balls came along and metal drivers became much longer.......its been ONLY tech distance gains since then...back then a 7 iron went about 150yds to a good Am....now its like 170yds... its only the ball tech gains that will be adjusted...so a 7iron will still go 160yds.....pros will be hitting it 400yds soon and that makes good golf courses a joke..,,Ball roll back MUST happen for so many reasons

[@MikeBodo]

@@1362pc The loft of a 7 iron pre 2001 was 38 degrees. I could hit it 150 yds. carry. The loft on that same club today, even for the pros, is anywhere from 32 degrees on the high side to 29 degrees on the low end. Guess how long I hit a lower lofted 7 iron today? 150 yds. That was the loft of a 5 iron back in the 70's, 80's and 90's. Ever wonder why there are no 3 irons and 2 irons in golf sets anymore? Because today's 5 and 4 iron's replaced them. They're the same loft. You're not comparing apples to apples. Thus, your argument rings hollow.

[@1362pc]

SO with all the ball and club tech gains you don't hit a 7iron any further...why?..I hit a 7 iron much further today then before 2001....a ball speed roll back is just adjusting some tech gains over the last 20 years

[@MikeBodo]

@@1362pc I was in my 20's and 30's with when playing the higher lofted club sets of the day. I'm 58 now. I don't swing as fast as I used to. Second, solid core balls have been around since the advent of the Top Flite in the 1970's. They were like hitting rocks and were primarilly used as range balls, which is why no one outside of amateurs played them. They went a hell of a long way compared to balata balls, however and they were able to get Lee Trevino to endorse them seeing he was not a long ball hitter at the time. However, it wasn't until the Pro V was released that a solid core ball felt comparable enough to balata to essentially replace them. Ball technology has not advanced nearly as much as people tend to believe since. Sure, dimple patterns, slightly more compressible cores and better aerodynamics have produced nominal distance gains, but the genesis of the solid core ball when the Top Flite was released hasn't changed all that drastically. The vast majority of distance gains, aside from swing speed increases, have come from metal drivers and lower lofted irons. What has the USGA and R&A done to rein driver technology in? Sure, they eliminated the trampoine effect, but so what? That's been replaced by better materials - in particular, carbon. Driver size and driver shaft technology has had a much huger impact on distance gains than ball technology. If you're so concerned about distance then why not scale back the driver size limit from 460 cc to 350 and have shafts be no longer than 44"? When you're ready to go there and have that conversation then we can talk about the freaking ball roll-back!

[@1362pc]

Sir Bodo, I can guarantee you ProV1 distance has increased every new model...fact! The ball roll back would bring the relative ball speed back to the original model or later....I still play the higher loft iron models...easy 160yd 7iron. I would also make the driver heads smaller...too forgiving now....I used a Titliest professional before the ProV1....soft ball but lose 20+ yds on a drive... New Technology will keep the ball speed increasing...forever.....10 h'caps moaning they can't hit 300 yd drives with slower ball is laughable...

[@Gays4Trump]

It makes no sense to me to roll back the ball. Hitting it farther is more enjoyable for amateurs and I also disagree with the COR regulation for drivers. If you want golf to be harder grow the grass longer and narrow the fairway. Change par on courses from 72 to 70 etc. Make bunkers more difficult.

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

It’s about having more long approaches to test good players.

[@jeffreychernes3193]

Send Dean Snell a message…would love to hear him talk about golf ball R&D and expenses etc.

[@user-me5fz1le7r]

I’m totally with dark star. Playing less distance sucks, I’m getting older and already facing it due to age. It’s not fun to play “old man golf” because you can’t hit it as far as I used to.

[@andynaz5631]

Im old, played with a bunch of young bucks. They were 30y ahead. I was hitting 5 irons into par 4s, they were hitting 8i and 9is. With roll back, i would be hitting 5w or 3 hybrid and they would still be only hitting 7i and 6i.

[@colnagosuper]

In 1965 i hit the ball a lot further. The added fun back then was there was 1 or 2 hot balls in a box. Spalding dots for sure some others as well. You would cry when something bad happened.

[@jfritzy4358]

Exactly what problem is a golf ball rollback supposed to fix? As I understand it, all started because a few Pros (small small number) hit the ball too far scoring too many strokes under par. If that is correct, it is strictly a Pro course set up issue. Also, there are young golfers in the pipeline that can approach 400 yard drives. They will make golf ball roll back a moot issue before it is actually implemented. Bottom line, this is exclusively a Pro Golf issue. Never hear any recreational golfer complain about hitting the ball too far. Stay the H - E - Hockey Stick - Hockey Stick away from the amateur golfer. If long hitting Pros are believed to have an unfair advantage, the fix is easy. Grow the rough, add more penalty areas, or other course set up and management options. For the Pros, make it a 1 stroke penalty if drives are not IN THE FAIRWAY beyond 300 yards. Risk - reward then on the table without making it impossible for the lower 75% of Pro players to ever win a tournament with a rolled back golf ball. A rolled back golf ball harms most of the Pros and is completely and insanely stupid for the rest of us. Any claim the game should be played more like originally started in Scotland is pure nonsense. First of all, we all know mass consumption of alcohol was involved. Seriously, what sport is played today the same way as when "invented"? NONE. The game is shrinking because it is too slow for the younger iPhone - iPad group that wants instant gratification. Pace of play is an issue on many courses. Roll the ball back takes more shots per hole equals even slower pace of play leading to even fewer new golfers. Young people flock to Top Golf to blast golf balls for an hour, maybe two and then do something else. A fast round is 4 hours, and that is too much time. New golfers are not going to be attracted it it takes 5 -6 hours to play a round. Hit the ball shorter means loosing fewer golf balls. Hogwash. There is not a course I have played that does not have the same potential for a lost ball 220 yards off the tee versus 250 yards. A bad shot is a bad shot. A rolled back ball is not going to impact all amateurs the same. The proposed testing is under one condition, a center strike tour Pro swing speed. That condition will have no correlation to the average amateur off center hit less than 100 mph swing speed. A Pro could loose maybe 10-15 yards. Amateurs could loose 50 yards. Ridiculous. The game will not be any more fun or strategic for the amateur. Why even play if Monday you can hit the ball 250 yards, Tuesday going forward you struggle to reach 200 yards. The golf aristocracy has their heads up their collective backsides.

[@darrellludlow]

Absofreakinglutely!

[@camojack6293]

Ok so….”everyone is playing the same ball”. Finally. We don’t have to go to the golf store n stare at 15 different ball manufacturers, and a wide range of “””Damn expensive balls” we can just play. Wilson Duo’s only thing u gotta get down!!! Is the color. There. That was easy. 😵‍💫🤨🧐

[@DeadSeaGenesis]

Bifurcation without Bifurcation! Darkstar nailed it!

[@dinglbarry1275]

The losing ball argument is ridonculous. How many balls are really going to be saved as a result of a 5% roll back? 1 a year? That's so insignificant... and I'm not sure if it's true, but there's speculation about the roll back resulting in a golf ball price increase. It's not that good of an argument either way, but I would say the odds are greater that golf ball costs overall are likely to be greater even with the alleged saved golf ball as a result of slightly lower distances, but the golf ball cost is so far down on the rung of significance within the argument of the golf ball roll back.

[@tybo9]

I think I will be done with Golf when this happens. I usually hit a driver about 275 carry, but one of my favorite things in golf, is every now and then when I catch one solid and hit it 300 yards with rollout. It's just fun and exciting! We all have those distances we love to hit! But that will never happen again! I am already a high spin golfer, and it will take away even more yards for people like me!

[@poocrayon4588]

Oh please, 250 yards is a long way, its far enough, I doubt you even do hit it as far as you claim if your really this upset. If your a decent golfer losing 10 yards on a drive shouldnt matter to you.

[@darrellludlow]

I'm with you. And I am just now really enjoying seeing improvement through a lot of hard work

[@davidgolfer]

Greens fees are completely out of control... recently played a very nice course, but the greens fee was $300.00. That's insane!!! Will never play there again at that rate... courses need to be profitable but come on man... regarding golf ball rollback... I'd be hard pressed to believe it ever get instituted... nothing in history goes backwards!

[@ThinkingManShow]

Green fees defying gravity David. Along with lift tickets. Hate it.

[@michaelsmoot5200]

Elementary school PE …indoor whiffle golf games; middle school par three golf teams; recreation council par three golf teams; high school golf teams

[@leeholden13]

Dark star is correct on this. There are something like 25 million golfers in the US and only a few hundred PGA Tour players. Is anyone seriously claiming too much distance is a problem for the vast majority of 25 million non-professional golfers? There are some 15 thousand golf courses in the US and only a handful host professional tournaments. Does it make more sense to change golf equipment for everyone in the world or have a few elite golf courses place traps or grow the rough where it would effect 300+ yard hitters who miss fairways? Did I miss a memo where hordes of golf fans were threatening to not watch golf because they were so upset watching PGA golfers hit long drives? This whole concept of distance being a problem for the majority of golf players and watchers is so monumentally stupid, there has to be something we don't know. Usually, when something like this happens, use the "follow the money" rule. I don't know where the big money is on this...equipment makers? Maybe they want to sell everyone in the world new clubs that they can advertise "hits dead rollback balls farther".

[@buckshots4800]

If you are going to allow for clubs and a ball that make it possible to go 380 plus then it should be a risk reward venture. More risky than reward will make it more interesting. That seems the simple solution which probably means I'm missing something.

[@jondiaz4519]

Golf ball companies will be forced to roll back their balls and inevitably kill their own business as amateurs will quit the game in droves. This rule will put companies out of business, reduce the number of avid golfers which will thus put golf courses out of business. Stupid idea.

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

Absolute best show from you two ever! You need to disagree more often, so you can actually get somewhere. B team was the A team today. So many strong points from b team I hadn’t even thought of showing great historical reference and understanding the big picture, and not just what’s best for him. Dark stars main argument was whaaa whaa whaaa What about my yards! He’s not alone, but that doesn’t make it a good argument. The game will not go back to the 60s, more like 2000 ish. Which was a great time for golf. Not too archaic. Not too technological. All the data shows the longer hitters have gotten longer and longer while shorter hitters and higher handicaps have not gotten much longer. The shorter the hitter the less they have gained in the last 25 years. I really do not believe this will make shorter hitters shorter. The numbers DS was throwing around were ridiculous. As Rory said most weekend warriors may not even notice a change, which based on the data I actually can finally agree with Rory on something. Also ridiculous were the numbers about rolled back balls at 10$ because of the biggest Bs word in golf “r n d”. Balls will probably get cheaper because they probably already know how to get balls to go shorter distances. What they keep putting money into is the balls going longer and longer. Same for dispersion, it won’t cost much if at all to go back to more dispersion. I also think less constant advancement gives smaller companies a chance to compete. If anything they should make us lose balls by adding a bit more dispersion back in the game. Imo shorter distances and more dispersion means bombers cannot take advantage of nearly as many holes, bringing everyone who cannot take advantage of those holes to have a better chance to compete. Golf has become a bombers paradise. These moves will give shorter hitters more chance. -- Btw As for golf courses, when it comes to rough, courses need to rope off the critical rough areas in the landing areas and keep all carts off them at all costs. -- The way forward is to go back a bit. It really is not a big deal. Remember everyone went crazy over the grooves roll back and the anchoring roll back, people cried for bifurcation, or to not do it at all, but they did, as they had to for the good of the game, and life moved on. Nothing really changed. This will be the same thing. Also amateurs have until 2030 to prepare. So there’s plenty of time here. The balls will already be in circulation in 2028 when the pros have to use them. So people will have two years to get used to it. All the old balls should be out of stores by 2028. It’s going to go smooth. And we really should be prepared for another round or two of roll backs designed to shorten distances off the tee and possibly increase dispersion. It’s their JOB to make adjustments so the game makes sense. Right now it kind of doesn’t make sense. Players should not carry fairway bunkers by 50 yards for example. It’s time to finally correct some of those things.

[@Diogenes-ty9yy]

I do not necessarily agree with your conclusions, but I find your arguments intelligent, coherent, and fact based food for thought. I feel, though. that having seen what engineering and technology have done to golf in the last 20 years, I would likely conclude that, even now, equipment manufacturers will have engineers working on whatever new ball specifications may transpire and design the "new" ball to achieve its maximum distance which, in a few years, may equal or exceed what we have now. Maybe, the best thing would be for pros to have to play gutta percha balls; I wonder what a gutta percha Titleist would be like? 🤔

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

⁠@@Diogenes-ty9yyThanks. I’m most convinced golf does not need bifurcation. It’s good for golf for the companies to sell to amateurs the same products the pros use. But also for competitive reasons it’s too hard to draw the line with bifurcation. When players need to transition. I mean I see high school boys and girls that need to be rolled back. No joke. As for the companies adjusting, for sure they will. They are awesome at what they do. That’s why I say we need to be ready for the rules makers to make further roll backs. They probably are not going nearly as rolled back as they would ideally want right now. For obvious reasons. And my whole point is we can’t go all agro every time the rules makers have to work a roll back. It’s what they are supposed to do. The more people complain about rollbacks the less they can get it right.

[@Diogenes-ty9yy]

@@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656 Well, I try to be optimistic as, in golf as well as in life, change is an extremely difficult process. The big thing, for me, is that if it takes until 2030 for this change to be implemented, I'll be 81and - should I still be walking this earth - I can blame my lack of distance on my shots to using the "new" ball. 🤣🤣🤣 Best regards.

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

@@Diogenes-ty9yysame with dark star how old is he gonna be in 2030? Just be happy to be alive and able to walk and hit a ball. Because that will keep you alive longer. I’ll be entering my 50s 😅 I don’t care how short I hit it I’ll be out there with my kids and maybe a buddy or two grinding away.

[@boydgrandy5769]

The game changed with Tiger. Tiger's length off the tee forced the PGA to change the courses they play on to make them longer, to make them Tiger proof. He was playing a balata ball back in the 90's (before Pro V1) and making the courses he was playing look like par threes.

[@poocrayon4588]

To be fair the change from persimmon to metal is what really preceded all of this. Imo it was a total mistake, it's like if baseball changed to metal unrestricted sized bats - it would change everything about the game. That's whats happened with golf.

[@boydgrandy5769]

@@poocrayon4588 A wooden driver or a fairway wood, with that tiny little plastic inserted face held on with screws, only worked when you hit them "on the screws". I can't tell you how many drivers I had to toss because the whipping came loose or the heel of the club got so mangled from off center strikes that the club became dead. For no other reason than the DURABUILITY which immediately accompanied the new steel headed woods, the move to metal in wood club heads was justified. You are aware, aren't you, that college baseball is played with aluminum bats, for safety reasons? Asking for a friend....

[@poocrayon4588]

@@boydgrandy5769 Dude I'm in my early 30's, only been playing for a couple of years - started with metal modern clubs and now usually play with real woods and clkubs from the 70's, because my local course isnt a modern pro length course and it's too easy otherwise. I dont want to drive and use a pitching iron or 8 iron at most on literally every par 4 or even 5. Dont make it sound like driving with a wooden driver is so hard to hit, it's not at all. I can do it easily, regular folks used to play with them too. I'm a regular guy and if I can hit a wooden driver somewhere between 230 and 300 yards (varies depending on whether I middle it and conditions) then whats the big deal? It's not like 250 yards isnt a long way. I've also had the same wooden driver literally for over a year and it's still working fine. Stop being such a wimp anout it.

[@Shimmed]

I already play one tee box back from the red tees. The last thing I need to add to my gimped golf game is a gimped golf ball.

[@SiLoMixMaster]

Good discussion gents, personally I'm still on the fence about this, will be interesting to see how it develops

[@hjplano]

B Team and I will move to North Berwick and be happy.

[@spirro-eg1yl]

IMHO, pro golfers have never been less relevant. I have no emotional attachment to the new pros that fly private on day 1. I grew up when pros slept in their cars before winning majors. Make the courses playable to the paying members/players, which are mostly older/retired, speed up play and loosen up on the maintenance. My course wants to charge the members (most on fixed income) $4 million in deferred maintenance in the hopes of attracting some 3rd tier tournament because the course board are a hand full of tournament players. 60-70 year olds cannot play long carry, tabletop greens with 11 stimp rating. This slows everything down. I am 51 and I barely have the time to play 9 holes. Jack Nicklaus said golf should have moved to 12 holes back in the 70s.

[@davekeogh4870]

The guy on right is 100% correct!

[@michaelmarchese3362]

Mandating a change in equipment performance on account of how far .0001% of the golfing population can hit the ball (on courses few of us could ever gain access to) is myopic in the extreme. Tour pros don’t define “the game”. And so what if a US Open winner might shoot 19 under someday? OMG cats and dogs living together!!! Nobody will want to play golf anymore!!GASP!!!! In what way shape or form does this “endanger” the game? The narcissistic members of the host course might get butt-hurt a little, but so what? Just freeze equipment distance potential as it stands today and move on.

[@billwallenstein3387]

With the growth of LIV golf, it’s very apparent that he PGA is making one poor decision after another. It’s like the old timers saying, I’m not going to use a computer. They think rolling Tiger out there who’s made his money and his appointed heir apparent Rory is going to convince the fans it’s okay to keep everything status quo. Following people who make poor decisions will be the end of them. Yeah get the masses to have to hit 3wood or long irons into a par four and see how that works out for you.

[@poocrayon4588]

They should have to hit long irons, only wimps want to play make believe that theyre big men with juiced up equipment and hit driver wedge. Its like bumper bowling.

[@rickproctor6693]

Many years ago, the British used a smaller ball. The pros in the USA hit it further. The R and A eventually changed.

[@barrietermeer9652]

You’re missing a key affect which is losing the excitement the long game can generate, especially in forced carries, high treed dog legs, over creeks, etc…and that excitement hitting a big drive, wood and even iron brings us back…otherwise it becomes boring..

[@kevinfotsch6421]

To me, the only thing that can change the distance in ball float is the dimple pattern, creating a low pressure area on the wall which gives it an Lyft and they’re going to go on that factor to decide on whether a ball is illegal or legal

[@Seektruth-59]

My kids, distance to them is more important than the score. The one bomb of 300 yds for my son or 220 for daughter is what they remember along with chip ins and long putts, not the score.

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

That’s cool.

[@isambo400]

And…?

[@poocrayon4588]

Too bad, there's more important things in golf than making your kids feel like they hit a long way

[@Seektruth-59]

@@poocrayon4588 not really, that’s how you get them in the game.

[@poocrayon4588]

@@Seektruth-59 Who cares? Golf should cater to people who dont wanna play actual golf and just want equipment to make it easy for them to hit far. Doing that is what has brought us to the point where rollbacks are needed

[@owenhaugh5439]

But you all are forgetting that how many professionals golfers vs us the non-professional, killing 30 yards from the tee is not going to make the game any more fun for the rest of us....425 yd home, now hitting 275 yds off the tee, now hitting 245.... 7 iron vs 4 iron and then the roll off off the green??? More people will quit...Pickleball anyone????

[@toddrinehart333]

This decision is a game killer. Access and cost will not drive younger folks to play. If you want to regulate the professional game, so be it. Recreational and amateur ranks - leave it as is.

[@davidpeterson552]

Rolling the ball backwards will kill golf for the retired older players. They are already hitting from the senior tees. Are they going to move those closer? How does this affect handicaps? They will go up dramatically. That will affect amateur competitions. It will be a mess.

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

People who don’t compress the ball will hardly notice.

[@frankmollegaard1989]

Sure, make the ball fly less and curve more lol. On the bright side if amateurs don't outright quit the sport then sales of new golf clubs will likely skyrocket as will visits to shrinks and chiropractors. Personally won't matter to me cos I mostly use balls I find on the course which are quite often old and don't fly that far anyway. Another excellent broadcast :)

[@songman68]

I agree with Darkstar as well. This is bad for the game for most average golfers and the rules of golf should be based on the majority of golfers not the minority (the pros). The average driver distance for golfers from ages 15 to 79 is only 225.4 yards according to Golf Digest. That being the case there is no need to roll back the ball. Also lets not forget the longest recorded drive was by Mike Austin when he was 64 years old in 1974. He used a steel shafted persimmon driver and a balata ball and hit it 515 yards. kzbin.info/www/bejne/h6fCmZxmoralZtU

[@andynaz5631]

That was also longest hole in one.

[@thewi7ard]

This is all very speculative at this point. If they can make a ball with diminishing returns that doesn't affect slower swing speeds as much, then it'll be good for the shorter hitters.

[@isambo400]

All of golf is already proportionate to swing speed. If you only hit a driver 200 now you’ll probably still hit it 195

[@wayneroan3619]

The difference is the Pros can adjust by making the club more upright to get distance or hitting driver now instead of 3W. Most average golfers are hitting as much as they can and rolling the ball back affects them much more than the Pros.

[@Seektruth-59]

The PGA only wants the long guys to be in the majority of winners and get back to Golf “gods n heroes” where only 2-4 guys dominate above everyone else.

[@MrHobbs-lm8jn]

Golf went down the same path as MLB and NFL wanting more scoring. Some genius in marketing thinks that off the wall scores like a video game attracts more eye balls. The Golf Godfathers failed to realize the evolution of ball and equipment would make the classic golf courses obsolete. They are trying to put the genie back in the bottle, all they need to do is call an end to new ball and equipment development for tournament use, which is a whole different issue when you talk about the golf MFG side of the equitation, tighten the fairways and grow a real rough, deepen bunkers to make it an actual penalty, and .plant trees in strategic locations to force players to make quality shots instead of long drive competitions. Set the greens up to increase speed and pin location difficulty. The ball and equipment is not the problem, the governing body of golf is the problem

[@lairdgordon3424]

When the rest of the world was made to play the 1.68" American ball, instead of the 1.64" that the rest of the world used, and which did not go as far, nobody gave up golf because they lost a bit of length

[@isambo400]

Exactly. People are overreacting

[@jfritzy4358]

Rollback is classic solution in search of a problem. If any kind of problem could be identified, it is exclusive to the PRO game. So why are amateur golfers first to be impacted? Already young golfers capable of 400 yard distance, so this rollback will be moot before ever implemented for Pros. Justification presented as complex mix of considerations is horse pucky. Amateur players are NOT outgrowing the courses they play on. No amateur complains about hitting the ball too far, just the opposite. A tiny number of Pros hit the ball too far. Grow the rough, expand penalty areas on the PGA Tour. Simple adjustments to tournament courses all that is necessary.

[@stevefletcher7531]

I would like to see you come to scotland on a cold day, and hit a ball 270 in the air, no problem when you live in warm florida where the ball flies so much further

[@blehoo1]

Absolutely - 240 is y absolute Sunday best round North Berwick. Maybe they should only change roll back the ball in countries that average over 70f (21c)🤔

[@ThinkingManShow]

Like! the game with bounce and roll.

[@michaelsmoot5200]

Doc is right on. We played persimmon & hogans. Our Distance was close to many pro except for Jack. Problem was wedges & putting. Ground was rock hard everywhere. Later Ping one irons were playable off the tee. Most enjoyed balata balls. We played Wood woods & HIGH lofted blade irons. However, 99.2% of today’s players are far from Rory & The elite pros. Leave the ball, Change back to Wood and blades.

[@ThinkingManShow]

Thx Michael. Appreciate your thoughts. How does the game of golf get kids to play in large numbers?

[@PhilBaggers]

Just found the show, love it. BUT I'm here in Florida too. Kids don't play??? There's so many kids and they are all awesome and love hitting the ball far. Am I wrong? What are you seeing that I'm not?

[@ArtistPhil58]

I can move forward a tee, to the 'ladies' tee. Where do the ladies go? I will also add that I live in Sweden - for 6 months out of the 9 month season the ground is so wet and soft that you get no roll out with the driver. What you can hit in the air is what you get. You also seem to be saying that where you would previously hit a six iron all you have to do is take your four iron "no biggie" - we all know that's not true. One final edit: "stop watering the course". Where I live IT RAINS!

[@jamesroche2082]

Remember the Ping Eye2 / Ping Eye2+ debacle in the early 90's. U grooves versus rectangular grooves, the spin was relative to the golf ball cover. The Pro's were screwing it back 20 feet on the greens. I'm a tradionalist & with B Team on this technology stuff. Golf should be played on the ground with firmer courses , this requiring more Skill. Best Regards from Ireland. I've caddied in St Andrews for years 😂

[@ThinkingManShow]

The game as it was designed to be played! Thx James. Cheers to you in Ireland.

[@isambo400]

This was the best decision to make for the game. Clubs and balls have gotten better and better for a century and it’s time to stop.

[@pwaveqrs1]

Golf course maintenance is solve by solar charged battery powered mowers. They mow at night and never interfere with golfers.

[@ThinkingManShow]

Maybe with a windmill on top.

[@richarddavenport1838]

If F1 they have one tyre provider who pays for the privilege.. do the same in pro golf and roll back but leave the masses to enjoy the game not frustrated by a ridiculously ill thought dictate... ffs !

[@toma5326]

I think there is room for all types of golf. I would like to see 10,000 yard, 20 hole courses, and very traditional courses from the 60's... It would be cool to play a course where everyone has to use the exact same standard equipment, and courses with 1250 yard par 6's.

[@Deltron3031]

I found I agreed with Dark Star more, due to the muni golf course limitations that I typically play on. It is going to take a little while for courses, especially those that aren't private and don't have profit margins, to react to the new ball. In-season here in the north, I play a course every week in my unisex league which has only 3 tee sets and I'm already at the middle one just due to my length off tee limitations. Playing the front/ladies tees is a HUGE difference (on two holes this tee is ~100 yards in front of the medium tees), so simply calibrating to loss of distance is not possible nor fair to the ladies I'd be hitting alongside. I didn't agree with DS on the final cost point, however. My nephew is a process engineer for a golf company, and last I checked he is hired full time. When not developing NEW equipment, they are testing for consistency of the existing equipment. The R&D costs are generally the same regardless. There will be a one-time capital expenditure for the companies to rollout their machines, processes, etc. before hitting the ON button, but this will be spread over the production of many millions of golf balls. IMO maybe it adds a buck to a dozen balls, which with our recent inflation won't seem egregious.

[@billyburroo]

just ordered 12 dozen boxes of pro v ones from amazon

[@jakob4371]

Wont the change be proportional to the swing speed? So the faster you swing, the longer you hit, the bigger the difference?

[@jakob4371]

I e the change will be larger for rory compared to Harman.

[@tuzaguilar4201]

We amateurs play different brands anyway. Some are fliers, others too spinny. And then there's the fact that we hit a lot of used secondhand balls too! I don't think the distance reduction is such a big deal. For the pros it will matter definitely. Long hitters will benefit in the long courses that's for sure. In the case, the PGA Tour must choose different courses to play. Some drive and chip, some accuracy-demanding courses, etc. To me - it does not matter.

[@craigcrawford6749]

Exactly, my refurbished balls are already rolled back so its the same thing

[@briankidder650]

Consumers will be paying for the added costs to change the golf balls. Pros get their balls for free!

[@partrickstowman8039]

The “just move up “ argument doesn’t play on courses where there 2 tees to start with. It appears that you guys play on elite courses

[@MrSully-l1z]

Darkstar is correct! If I go from 250 to 225...I will quit the game. It's no fun as a single digit handicap to now have to hit long irons into every par 4. No thanks!! There is no incentive for a kid to play if he is constantly frustrated and knows he'll be limited.

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

You will not lose 25 yards because of this change. You will lose it if anything because you will be almost 10 years older. Slower swing speeds will not be affected much.

[@blehoo1]

Completely agree

[@tonybranson5809]

Guys, here's reality....Pro game, knock yourselves out...Whatever !!. Now amateur game is a very different story. Its all about enjoyment for most if not all players therefore with a change to ball for the amateur will definitely take the enjoyment away and people will leave the game in droves...No risk at all. Well done R&A, really growing the game champs !!. Just think about the age majority and also the female golfers....They wont even be able to make the start of the fairway on a lot of courses. This is why these idiots in charge have to be voted out and sacked!.

[@FDSN519614]

I am 61 and hit the ball 200 yards if they change the ball I will quit or use older balls until they dry up then quit

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

For recreational golf you can do whatever you want. There are probably illegal balls and drivers somewhere on the market that go even further than the top brand balls and drivers. As long as your buddies playing for cash know, you can do whatever you want Playing for fun recreationally. You can play with other sports equipment like Tin Cup if that’s your cup of tea.

[@chrisrobinson976]

Do you think small manufactures like Vice and Snell will change their current line up? Personally I think it's a great opportunity for them if they don't change their products.

[@Shadywho]

lol great idea let’s make the game more difficult and hit the ball shorter. Awesome idea😂

[@michaelsmoot5200]

Average Joe, played PING 1 iron off the tee with balatas. Ball rolled out in Georgia beyond some players hitting MacGregor drivers. Pissed them off. We loved rock hard courses. Today, we dislike green green courses in need of 110 ft air balls. Roll back has consequences. Rules guys should pay.

[@gordonmartel4850]

Ball is not the problem. Course design and set ups are the issue on pro level. Nothing changes with ball roll back at elite levels. Those that have length will always have the advantage.

[@dpg0jod]

How can we email you if we have a superintendent that would like to speak with you?

[@ThinkingManShow]

Thx DPG. Good stuff. Please use our direct message form: ThinkingManShow.com

[@61JZ]

How about leaving the ball exactly where it is and freezing? The idea that you have to roll back is ludicrous. If you want to put the brakes on, then fine. But the rollback is pure idiocy.

[@gsm9551]

What happens to golfers that already play from the front tees? They will probably quit the game.😔

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

Junior tours set up tees at the start of the fairway for 7-10 year olds. Even closer for younger ages. US kids has 4-6 year olds teeing off 10o yards from par 4 holes. It’s still golf people!

[@isambo400]

Bye Felecia

[@poocrayon4588]

If being bad at golf mattered to those players they would have already quit

[@philipbooth8970]

So every course that has a forced carry over water could now have to build a closer tee to accommodate this? The expense on the golfclub will be ridiculous and Stop referring to 1965 all the time it's a newer game now, just let 1965 go man.

[@pwaveqrs1]

Kids are loosing interest in golf, because it’s such an expensive chore to see it live and TV Golf coverage before LIV was wearing out mute buttons. If it’s boring on TV, kids won’t be attracted. Nothing to do with equipment. If the USGA and PGA are involved it’s an automatic goose egg.

[@dalvinaverill6802]

I don't think R&A or USGA really give a rip about the casual golfer. To me, what this is about is the PGA and majors building up their heros. They are so hung up on having their Arnie, Jack, Tiger, Rory heros to drive ratings that they have figured out this will do it. Many of the pro's have said that a rollback won't effect the bombers. Rory, Rahm, Bryson, Brooks and DJ will be the best players and all the others will drop back because of what you mentioned about Brian Harmon. Growing the game for me has more to do about Harmon or Louis O. or Sergio doing amazing things with a 4 iron while the bombers are hitting 8's and 9's and those guys show me a lesser hitter can be relevant.

[@garystorck4128]

Everybody can have their own opinion obviously that’s fine, but making the game shorter is not gonna make it a fun game. People play golf in America don’t know about the Scottish game. Also, who do you think is gonna pay for the development of this new ball it’s not gonna be Rory McIlroy that’s for sure or any other professional golfer, it’s going to be the average golfer just like you guys and everybody that watches this podcast. That’s the part that’s gonna suck the most also all they have to do is change the set up of the course. The pros are on a different level anyway but I do agree that guys like Brian Harmon, the shorter hitters on the PGA TOUR when this new ball comes out that goes a lot less further. They’re gonna have a very difficult time winning any tournament the big hitters are still gonna be the big hitters.

[@Seektruth-59]

Game is too expensive for one and I play 1/3 of 20 years ago. When I quit, my kids are done.

[@ThinkingManShow]

And that is one massive problem FM.

[@hjplano]

Did TW use a Titleist Professional ball at PB or a Nike Prototype ? Dont think ProV1 hit the tours until fall 2000 in LV

[@ThinkingManShow]

Nike. He was under contract with them.

[@timothymarcotte7760]

Dr. Darkstar is correct

[@charlesbond4413]

I watched this discussion again to see if I felt the same way 6 months later. The golf ball has not been an issue here. Many choose a three wood over a driver to hit short of the water. It’s called strategy. I suspect that a slower ball will increase play time, slow the game. We have a heavy retirement golf community, active women’s golf and great youth programs. All will be affected negatively by this role back. Will the survive, yes. By 2035, we’ll move past this issue. That said, it still remains a huge negative in the golf world, for this 10 year period. Very few real golfers swing at 125, 127, or even 120. 200-240 drives rule the fairways. I swear sometimes, these golf industry managers get a harebrained idea and then talk it up internally until it becomes the most important issue that only they can solve. Well, of course they can solve it, they created it. We have a handful of hitters who hit 260 or better. That said, there is a killer instinct and many younger golfers try for that magic 300 mark. We have a challenging course and accuracy and 200 will keep you in far better shape than 300 and bouncing off trees or dropping by the red staked water. I agree with dark star that it’s a negative for growing the game. It may create a surge in golf fittings and new clubs as golfers try to restore some semblance of their previous game. I just think this roll back is stupid and arrogant. A freeze would have accomplished the same goals without the controversy. Also, who cares about Rory or Tiger, or Jon or Bryson when you are standing in your tee box.

[@ThinkingManShow]

Thx Mr. Bond. Do you think that Seth Waugh quitting PGA of America without warning has something to do with the rollback? He was very much against it.

[@charlesbond4413]

@@ThinkingManShow Yes, as I believe he saw that it is not in the best interests of golf. There are lots of people trying to protect their turf over looking at the big picture. Your discussion has helped me see the issue in more dimensions and to eliminate the minor distractions and focus on core issues. Also, I just enjoy listening to you develop your ideas off each other. It is a healthy discussion, unlike most board rooms or those run by powerful, but poor leaders.

[@triptepper]

Yes, Ben Hogan got a ticket tape parade back in the day. But Golf is competing for consumer eyeballs and dollars with more sports than in the 1950s and 1960s. Golf rolling the ball back is going to erode the popularity and the casual viewer will vanish. Golf's leadership has a massive blind spot right now and they cannot see the big picture of the live sports television landscape being extremely competitive. TV viewers want to see long drives and scoring. Roll the ball back and golf becomes mid overnight. The long hitters will still have the advantage so rolling the ball back doesn't help Kisner or Harman, it actually kills them off.

[@gibo7958]

Young kids want to be able to hit the greens in par , reducing the ball distance means they will not enjoy the game as much , which means they won’t stay as long term players

[@blehoo1]

Absolutely true. Cannot be good for the game. We need the youngsters to grow our sport

[@isambo400]

This will have no effect on anybody except people playing from the wrong tees

[@oahujuniorgolfassociationc6656]

My 4 year old son just made 10 or more in every hole but one in his first US kids event. But because we kept the whole day positive and fun he had a blast and is looking forwards to the next one. And meanwhile he is starting to learn the concept of practice makes us even better. This really will not affect kids enjoying the game whatsoever. Parents being cool is what makes kids enjoy golf. Easier said then done but it’s true.

[@boydgrandy5769]

Bottom line, I, as a 72 year old golfer with an 85mph driver swing speed, will continue to play whatever ball I like, outside of sanctioned tournament play. I don't need to lose 30 yards off the tee, and my driver ball speed is not going to be greater than 127mph off the club face. And guess what, non-conforming balls will remain on the market and will be used by a vast plurality of amateur recreational golfers.

[@Thomas-gv8zl]

None of this will hinder Aberg anyhow he is Him. Not worried about Rory let the roll back be for pga only.

[@dinglbarry1275]

I lean in favor of being against the roll back. Analyzing two of the biggest drivers... Bryson deCahmbeau and Rory... did it ever feel as though the courses/and or the game was getting destroyed by these two long drivers? I would say no and I would even argue that the long drivers make the game a little more exciting. The average pga tour player drives the ball around 301-302. What's wrong with that? With Rory and Bryson being on the extreme end at 326, 330. Approx 30 pro golfers are driving above 310. As far as I know, there haven't been any recent advancements in club technology that has added to distance? Or has there been? I don't see that technology increasing distance that dramatically in the next 20 or more years. My biggest argument against is... the way the average driving distance is right now sets a relatively fair playing field. Most par 5's... most pros have a chance to reach in two.... the rollback takes us back to the Tiger Woods prime era where he was averaging 300 a drive where he was among the small percentage of golfers that had this driving advantage, whereas the majority of the field were at a significant disadvantage. In the last 14 years as the average pro now drives over 300 yards the advantage gap is mostly gone. The roll back will take us back to the same gap that gave Tiger Woods his automatic advantage over the field and a small number of golfers will have a significant advantage over the rest of the field... this will ruin a lot of great golfers games. The roll back falls back into the 1999-2010 category, which is not ideal... it gives a tremendous advantage to the long drivers... to the point where it's going to eliminate the guys who average 301 or less from almost every competition (which will be around 286 after the roll back).

[@dinglbarry1275]

This will be a gargantuan advantage for 5-10 players with Rory being at the top of that.

[@andynaz5631]

Stock up on your current favorite balls.

[@billjones8542]

ultimately this all comes down to protecting par from the pro golfer. thats why the courses used at that level have to be so long. who cares? par is just a number assigned to the course. regardless if the winning score is 2 under, 2 over or 20 under or over, the best score wins. i am 70 years old and cant hit the ball out of my shadow, in the last 15 years i have moved up two sets of tees (roughly 800 yards) to be able to remain remotely competitive, now you are telling me i am going to be even shorter off the tee?? tell me who wants to beat their head against a wall for recreation?

[@pwaveqrs1]

I’m with Darkstarr on this one.

[@LegolasFan69]

A blanket rollback also bifurcates the game and causes more rules issues… these modern balls aren’t going disappear or look different…

[@stevemacgruther4051]

I am 60 and I hit the ball farther now than I ever did, I don't practice just play 30 to 40 rounds a year.

[@JuddDixon-q9s]

I don’t think that the average amateur will only lose 5-7 yards. It’s conceivable that the average amateur will be significantly more penalized than the professional and there will be more of an uproar later. They are intentionally killing the game for climate change.

[@1362pc]

Who cares about golf ball manufacturers? They make a fortune from selling golf balls

[@billbkr32ify]

The one is completely out of touch with what the game has evolved into. Take the game back to the 70s in today's generation and watch how quickly it collapses. This will be the beginning of the end.