Good & Bad Medieval Gauntlets... and Amazon's Lord of the Rings

[@LupusSanguis]

I loved John Howes designs in LOTR because, as a re-enactor like me, he has an understanding of how armour is supposed to work. Which is why his designs worked. I don't know who Amazon has, but they're clearly doing a disservice to John's designs. One of my favourite things was watching him spar with Peter Lyons when they had spare time while working on the show 🙂

[@TekkaSage]

Amazon seems to have outsourced its design team to india.

[@ProfessorShnacktime]

@@TekkaSage LOL oof

[@adc1222]

Little things like this just really make me afraid for the amazon LOTR show. The original LOTR had such an unbelievable level of care put into every aspect of it, even things that no viewer would ever see (like the inside of Theoden's coat being decorated with his crest), and I feel like amazon just doesn't have the genuine passion, let alone the talent, to pull off something even remotely comparable

[@Dumbo8234]

Same, the original LOTR had craftsmen working alongside prop makers and artists to balance what was needed for visual storytelling and what was practical. It seems that Amazon is leaning more towards the usual Hollywood style of fantasy.

[@MaMastoast]

I'm sure there is plenty of passion involved.. but the LOTR movies were certainly something special

[@AaronLitz]

Judging by the obscene mess they made of The Wheel of Time, their LotR will be just as awful.

[@adc1222]

@@AaronLitz I just found out that the writers for the new LOTR show have literally no IMDB writing credits to their name and are huge fans of JJ Abrams. So it's literally wheel of time with the incredibly inexperienced Rafe Judkins all over again. I don't know why Amazon keeps throwing hundreds of millions of dollars at people with zero experience

[@winstonsmith8482]

@@MaMastoast Yes there is plenty of passion involved in amazon's lotr..... passion for money, and passion for injecting their woke agenda/ideology.

[@daaaah_whoosh]

It's weird to me how a lot of HEMA gloves still get this wrong. Red Dragons, SPES Heavies, and SGs all get the angles wrong and make it hard to extend a weapon outward. Believe it or not, my Neyman gloves seem to have actually gotten it right, though they had other issues and the company is dead now.

[@nullifye7816]

RIP, they made some good stuff.

[@Sk0lzky]

This is baffling to me as well. Inb4 make your own

[@lyooyiylklykyokyklky]

I think my question now is: how did Lord of the Rings get so much right 20 years ago? What influenced it away from the usual tropes into something that actually looked really good?

[@Echowhiskeyone]

They used actual armorers and not prop makers.

[@santiagohernandez4637]

Probably budget, is not really worth it to make an expensive custom piece when you have an equivalent that can be modified a little to have the desired look

[@dar-nakkallig]

To put it plainly, they’re most likely using different workshops...

[@Tom-mk7nd]

People that worked on the project had passion, they were not doing it for the money like Amazon

[@bigguy7353]

*clichés.... "trope" is so neanderthalic sounding...

[@FirstLast-ks6vm]

Yeah after the Wheel of Time, I have zero faith in this show.

[@brianreddeman951]

So neat, ages ago in my teens I made a gauntlet correctly. I traced my fist, hand open and the spread apart. Articulating the fingers was the biggest challenge I remember and especially the thumb. The back of the hand, that single plate's angle and curve was a serious pain as well. Still it was fun to make. Now I wish I hadn't thrown it out (after moving from apartment to apartment a few times made me thin out a lot of stuff). Thank you for all that. Brought back memories... and to find out I was doing something right when I didn't know anything at all.

[@tsafa]

You did a great job in pointing out why doing HEMA is not enough to understand historical fighting. You also have to do the full contact hitting and experience and learn from that aspect as well.

[@johnladuke6475]

Matt flexing as a martial arts instructor and weapons collector, he doesn't grab one of those harmless toys off the wall behind him. He grabs the mighty and unbeatable stick to demonstrate his point.

[@joejoelesh1197]

Matt, I think it would be great if you did a video on the difference between HMB , Bohurt, and Harnessfecten (HEMA). I think that is a subject that many WMA people are confused about, including myself. Many HEMA people rarely see even harnischfechten in person.

[@alwaysangry2958]

Pretty simple difference. Hema Harneschfechten is about attempting to faithfully recreate and apply armoured techniques from historical manuscripts. HMB is a modern sport that retains the aesthetic of a medieval tournament. Manuscripts are rarely relied on when developing technique for HMB. Techniques are drawn from a variety martial arts, and modified to be effective within the rules set. Buhurt is the name for the group fights in HMB, 5vs5 etc.

[@p4riah]

'20 years ago' dear gods *crumbles into dust

[@COctagons]

HEMA: Technique, precision, discipline... Battle of the Nations: *BONKBONKBONKBONK!!!*

[@alwaysangry2958]

As HMB has gotten more competative and the need for both more protective armour and more mobile armour has arisen, pretty much all the armour designs are becoming more authentic. You're starting to see way more wasp waisted brigs, The articulation of the shoulders, arms and legs are getting better, and the individual peices are becoming more anatomically shaped. Even that a-historical wrist articulation is being ditched due to new authenticity regs, which is making armourers shape the cuffs properly, though the other elements of the tristan (I assume youre talking about tristans here) design + enclosed thumbs remain, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, I kind of like my thumbs remaining attatched to my body. When I hear a lot of hema folks talk about HMB, I feel like what theyre saying isnt representative of the sport today, more like what the sport was ten years ago, because we arent just hitting the armour in the buhurts, we are absolutely deliberately gap hunting. The 1v1 categories are more about just hitting the armour but its as a result of the scoring system, and not the individual skill of the participants.

[@BernasLL]

They're gap hunting? Thought that was stricly against the rules.

[@alwaysangry2958]

@BernasLL no, some shots are forbidden, back of the neck, back of the knee, groin and feet. Any gaps in other areas are fair game. Hips, backside and shoulders are common gaps that open up.

[@harrykouwen1426]

Thanks for these thoughts on gauntlets, I'm working on high end gauntlets at the moment, worked decades on prewar cars, that got too big after a stroke, so started making hand-mudguards, or gauntlets as you call them, good to have your experience and thoughts added here on your channel in it as well to make them even better.

[@KieselSteinchen46]

full contact fighting is something completely different then reenactment fighting, aiming for gaps is btw a thing we just dont thrust. point is that full contact fighting is a specialised fighting sport and is non historical by its nature, yes we use medieval armor and "weapons" looslely based on historical counterparts these are most of the time way heavier then the originals. big problem is most of the scene think it is totally authentic what they are doing but dont understand that it isnt.

[@Chuklz70]

Additionally many gauntlets are sold without the gloves or liners and I’ve seen hundreds of badly mounted gloves that fail during a fight and you could get a broken finger or thumb as Matt’s hourglass gauntlet is a great example

[@_scyas_1827]

Hey Matt, is that a Depeche Mode t-shirt you're wearing there by any chance ? If so, what's your favourite song ?

[@Brentisimo]

I was wondering the same thing. I went to the Depeche Mode Violator concert as a kid.

[@scholagladiatoria]

It is indeed, well spotted! and probably boringly I'd have to say Enjoy the Silence

[@Jim58223]

Regarding armourers, would be great to see a video of some of the best armourers from various countries and what they specialize in and examples of their work.

[@abysspect]

The first time I even saw the awful new gauntlets on that Rings of Power poster was when an artist I follow re-made the poster with a beautifully rendered gothic articulated gauntlet instead.

[@esgrimaxativa5175]

You're killing it Matt! Between proper guantlet articulation and sword sticks yesterday, we are learning so much wih every single video you put out. Keep up the great work.

[@stellifriends7785]

matts glove is almost identical to one in the royal armouries, one of which i copied with ted smith, who worked there at the time.

[@Jagdkomodo]

Nazgul armor is perfect. What they lack in protective value is compensated for in mobility and the sheer sense of terror that they breathe. Maybe not that historically accurate, but the makers also never claimed that.

[@pondboy3682]

Scholaglad: LOTR Trilogy from 20 years ago... Me: THAT'S NOT TRUE! THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE! Vader: Search your feelings; you know it to be true! Me: NOOOOO!!!

[@pendarricrolynd7444]

Tolkien is turning in his grave

[@Intranetusa]

The Tolkein estate and his son didn't like the movies made by Peter Jackson 20 years ago either, so he has been turning in his grave for decades already. Or at very least since that Hobbit trilogy disaster.

[@pendarricrolynd7444]

@@Intranetusa I agree in regards to the Hobbit films, they were atrocious. The Jackson trilogy was imperfect but good overall in my opinion.

[@80krauser]

He’s in the Undying Lands safe from the treacherous degeneracy of this filth.

[@anonymouscrow5849]

"The Shadow ... can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own." - J.R.R. Tolkien

[@SMABEM]

Lovely work Matt, as usual! Love to get a glimpses of your expertise! Really provides knowledge about the subject to the public. Great channel!

[@beepboop204]

sneaky stick use

[@HenryOfSkalitz7786]

I'm honestly kind of surprised to see how widespread of an issue this is, I'm only a mediocre artist but whenever I draw a knight the gauntlets are often what take the longest because if I don't get all those subtle curves it just looks wrong

[@daemonharper3928]

Yes you're quite right. I don't think people believe that they are the best at producing every item of armour so much as economic pressures force them to try their best....which is a shame because working together with other artisans has so many benefits, not just for the consumer and quality. Do we know if medieval armour was usually off the peg or bespoke?..... I'd guess a mixture of both depending on your finances (or looted on the battlefield).

[@Muljinn]

Much like ordinary clothing today, the wealthy generally used bespoke armour while the lower classes made do with off the rack and/or scavenged/hand-me-down gear.

[@SuperFunkmachine]

There's a lot of bulk armour orders in the later medieval accounts, if your boss buys a few hundred armours at a time then he's lending that stuff out.

[@daemonharper3928]

@@Muljinn I wonder if the young serfs all lusted after sabaton with 3 stripes or a swoosh 🤣

[@daemonharper3928]

@@SuperFunkmachine jeez, I'm 6 3' and 250 lbs....blister city here I come.

[@lobomarks007]

Great vídeo 🤯 you defined what makes a good and a bad gauntlet. Excellent 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@theassening4563]

this video sure has a handful of information, Im glad to have armed myself with more knoweledge, I like Matts videos because he studies those first-hand sources, that is how he gets the upper hand, how many weapons does Matt have on the backround? an arm-full, an actor in LOTR got their hand busted during shooting, thank goodness the cast was excellent, having protective gauntlets is like having a good trick up your sleeve,

[@arnijulian6241]

The main reason most armour today isn't made correctly or the same with design flaws is they do not know or possess the tools of the past. Black smiths today buy most of their tools. Back in the long gone days of being an apprentice you made your tools from scratch as your master wouldn't dare let his pupal scuff & nick up his tools he spent dozens to 100's of hours making. My grand father was an old fashioned farrier & He'd have given me a good whack if I touched let alone used his tools till I knew what-how. I'd do the same as him violently since I know the effort entailed in making such by hand from nothing but what is pulled up from the earth.

[@johnwick8269]

Hey Matt great video, can you make a reaction video to the Norsemen trailer?

[@ilejovcevski79]

They? Who's they precious? If memory serves LOTR was produced by New Line Cinema, while this new show is produced by Amazon? How do these relate to each other on top of there being more then 20 years since the production of the former?

[@Cleanpea]

The Amazon show will be taking design cues and heavy inspiration from the original LotR-trilogy.

[@ilejovcevski79]

@@Cleanpea could, would, should, the point is different people work on this show. Different team all together. What they do or don't take as inspiration is another thing.

[@Cleanpea]

@@ilejovcevski79 That is not what I said, I just answered your question - how the two productions would relate to each other - as far as we can know :)

[@ilejovcevski79]

@@Cleanpea ah, fair enough then

[@PoffinFresh]

I wouldn’t assume Sauron’s wrist anatomy has the same limitations as humans. Although he can can assume a human-like form, he’s basically a demon that can be intangible, and also used to shape shift into a werewolf and other forms.

[@Seelenschmiede]

He was a Maia (like Galdalf & co.), a minor god and the servant of Melkor, a Valar, a major god.

[@brotherandythesage]

Knowledge! Thanks Matt!

[@santiagohernandez4637]

I still remember when i saw Sauron the first time i saw the movie, my favorite scene of the whole trilogy

[@ledzep331]

So when I hold my shaft, it's not at 90 degrees. Got it. 🤣

[@bernhardb4711]

Before I have an opinion on this argument re the TV series, I need good academic sources about orc/elf/dwarf anatomy? How similar are their hands to humans'? :-)

[@johnlawson2179]

Good taste in music Matt If I am not mistaken Depeche mode Violator

[@rockimartinez6424]

Hi Matt, great fan of your videos. Given your familiarity with the historical sources as a scholar, would you be interested in doing a video talking about the evolution of fencing from a martial arts into a sport over history? I feel like you're one of the few youtube channels who can cover a topic like that with the apporpiate academic depth. Keep up the great work!

[@ashleyoasis7948]

I have a question you could you test you’re armour with the PSI bite force of other animals.since end of the day claws and teeth are now that sharp now that humans had to deal with spears axes etc.its just that test are like a vice and claws more like a sharp punch.do you think a knight full body could swim a lake full of man eating salt water crocodiles with the strongest bite force on earth.or could an armoured knight take a lion withought this roman cheating of the animal being leashed.to even bears could a full body armoured knight survive a bear or punch from gorilla how do these compare vs animals.i think the metal be very hard and uncomfortable-for any animal to have in its jaws put could a jaguar hyena or croc still cause a puncture

[@RottenRogerDM]

SCA armourers take note on the armor.

[@catgodkain5158]

What about leather scale..less protection but more movement

[@catgodkain5158]

I guess its more armor gloves but still..

[@stoker1931jane]

👌🏻Kudos Matt for giving props to Zac Evans, and his previously released video: talking about this promotional picture of 'The Lord of the Rings' prequel being created & released by Amazon. Loved your insights into gauntles as well. 👏🏻

[@wulsiter252]

Gountlets wont be the only problem with the new Lotr

[@99Stutz]

What would Matt's good gauntlets cost, approximately?

[@StutleyConstable]

Matt, I would love to get your take on the accuracy of Bernard Cornwell's descriptions of armour and weapons in his book 'Azincourt' or 'Agincourt' published in 2008. I think he makes a hash of describing the construction of arrows. I'm curious about the polearms and armour.

[@soonerfrac4611]

We want to accelerate that tip. TWSS!

[@DesignatedMember]

ScholaGladiatoria? More like, ScholaAnatomia amirite guys!?!?

[@markberlanga6375]

could you do a episode on the differences between buhurt and the various SCA combat systems ? perhaps in terms of say armor (gauntlets)

[@tsafa]

There's not going to be any difference because both are hitting with full power and full speed, so they have to have gauntlets that can perform and protect from real blows.

[@Jay22222]

You’re surprised? As if to say this is the first ck up you’ve received from Amazon.

[@bolieve603]

The one thing you can say about HMB is that the grappling is frequently beautiful. Since there isn't specifically an armored judo league I'll be content with HMB. Also at the high levels they have physiques molded by combat and use of arms, unlike most reenactors

[@bombfog1]

Matt “Simple Fact” Easton

[@-RONNIE]

The Witch King of Angmar his armor was my favorite

[@knutzzl]

The biggest difference between reenactment / hema / full contact is how many of the participants need to do it again this afternoon and tomorrow

[@wulfward1268]

Why cant scholagladiatoria be the armourer of the elves

[@bunburyodo]

It's interesting that as a martial artist the 'bad' gauntlets actually conform to a better anatomical shape for punching as you would use unarmoured. Of course we do it that way for our own protection of the wrist specifically because we aren't wearing a gauntlet, and so with a gauntlet it wouldn't be as important. It makes me wonder if the armourer has made them either with visualising the shape of an unarmoured strike, or making a fist without holding a weapon and therefore missing the nuances of how the hand and wrist shape change. Great video as always.

[@rbeckmal]

They got everything wrong now.

[@SkinnyBlackout]

Nothing Amazon could possibly produce will top the original movie trilogy. If their goal is to ruin the legacy they might just succeed in doing so, but a quality adaptation? Naaaaaah...

[@AnotherDuck]

@@SkinnyBlackout I wonder if people will even consider it a proper adaptation in that case, and just say it's a cash-grab not related to the actual books. In that case, it's not going to hurt the legacy, since it's not part of it.

[@promiscuous5761]

Thank you.

[@Shrapnel82]

What Amazon's Lord Of The Rings got wrong: Amazon is involved in Lord Of The Rings.

[@ashurbanipal6121]

Amazon LOTR already off to a shit start. Trust Bezos with JRR Tolkien’s work? Yea right. Like trusting a baboon with a Rembrandt.

[@anonymouscrow5849]

"The Shadow ... can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own." - J.R.R. Tolkien

[@robertkb64]

Question: who (circa 2022) is the best armorer for modern gauntlets (ex: not historically accurate to any particular period, but that combines best features across all ages for modern sporting use, other uses if appropriate, using modern materials - monometal spring steel, titanium, Kevlar/aramides, UHMWPE?) Same question for historical period armor (this may have many answers by period)?

[@leone.6190]

That Helmschmidt came Clean. 👌 that "sch" must be as difficult to you Englisch as the "th" is to us Germans. :D

[@book3100]

The "s" in Einstein isn't exactly easy either. It's not the same as our "sh". It's sort of farther back on the arch of the mouth. Interesting sounds :)

[@Seelenschmiede]

@@book3100 it is pretty the same as your sh like in "shit"

[@robbikebob]

When I fought in reenactment we certainly did NOT pull our shots! We did aim only for the shield, helm and greaves though. But, oh yes, we put everything in those shots!

[@nathanthom8176]

My knuckles aren't canted like yours, mine are pretty flat with my middle knuckle slightly protruding; I have quite a short index thing due to this.

[@woodsman105]

It may be true that there is more thrusting in HEMA. I'm quite certain, however, there's more penetration in HMB.

[@legacyShredder1]

Hmm. I really must speak with my gauntlet maker as it seems I'm always gripping a shaft.

[@seanpoore2428]

Idc if it's realistic since it's in middle earth, but I DO care if they work!

[@raphlvlogs271]

if mine craft has Gauntlets they will be terrible in real life.

[@stevenkobb156]

Not only are fists not rectangular, but also, no two fists are identical. So to get a proper fit, I would think they would have to be customized, if affordable.

[@DaroriDerEinzige]

Amazon's Lord of the Rings will be like their WoT Series or Netflix' TheWitcher; not worth my time.

[@DETHMOKIL]

I cant imagine the special pressure the Amazon LotR team has on them, but knowing how hard any teaser trailer will be scrutinized is pretty common knowledge. You'd hope they'd have something really special to give us, the picky nerds who deeply care about armor articulation in nazgul gauntlets.

[@ShagadelicBY]

This whole show will be a negative point on the human contribution scoreboard.

[@elshebactm6769]

🤠👍🏿

[@chubbymoth5810]

I guess they're spending more cash on sfx than physical correctness of props. As long as they don't start with half covering jousting helmets, they should be okay.

[@Joeseph113]

The ultimate test. If you had to go into a life and death battle today would you use a modern design Buhurt gauntlet or a historical design gauntlet. I encounter people often in sword forums and facebook pages that are adamant to the point of zealotry that if a sword is not a reproduction of a historical piece its is not a real sword, since people made swords for life and death situations back in history and we do not make swords for life and death situations now. Basically every modern sword that isn't a relatively faithful historical reproduction is simply a worthless and useless "sword like object" unworthy of mention or consideration in their eyes. Curious how this view may or may not apply to armor considering the modern buhurt people really are swinging quite hard and minor to moderate injuries are fairly common (at least in the groups i watch regularly)

[@RonJohn63]

*THE* trilogy was *WRITTEN* 74ish years ago.

[@frankharr9466]

There's always something. Hopefully the people how have to wear them get it fixed. But bad work is hisotical. We didn't invent it.

[@metalassassin8841]

God... Next time put a TRIGGER WARNING Matt, what the man!? Now on a serious-ish not, at least they are not made out of scrotums like the Nilfgardian armor in season 1 of the Witcher....

[@Intrigarium]

Dude, if I watch this video em 2xapeed it gets much better

[@Intrigarium]

Prolixity

[@sarchlalaith8836]

Everything you just said is pretty much why I think HMB is far more realistic representation of fighting. Hems is just gentrification imo

[@dallenhumpherys7911]

Except they don't fight the way you would actually fight in armor.

[@sarchlalaith8836]

@@dallenhumpherys7911 Except the are actually wearing armour and are actually fighting in it in the way they actually fight in their actual armour, actually... Yes they're not trying to kill the other people, but usually the objective was to take the other person captive for ransom.

[@MinSredMash]

@@sarchlalaith8836 Emphatically not true in the era HMB tries (badly) to depict. It bears no resemblance to battlefield combat, only tournament melee with unrealistic weapons and overprotective armor.

[@sarchlalaith8836]

@@MinSredMash emphatically not true an hema are fannies who ponce about and attempt to depict an age where most people didn't wear armour and were illiterate so didn't have full harness in the majority of cases and didn't read pedantic overly stylised gibberish of the treatise that hema seem to define themselves by then call it historically accurate/representative. K champ. Over armoured seems to apply to both. Only one actually fights. But hey, you do you, have fun with it, you give your fully armoured foe a love tap with your toy sword and call victory... I'll be over here with the HMB lads. Chin chin

[@MinSredMash]

@@sarchlalaith8836 You can take hormones to remove that feminine neckbeard you've got