Good enough to sell? why would I sell prints from one printer but not another? Two large B&W prints

How good does a printer need to be to produce prints to sell? Comparing two large black and white prints, one from a TC-20M basic 4 colour printer and one from a top end fine art printer [17" P5000]
Why it depends on your market and audience for the prints. How the 24" roll paper TC-20M can produce surprisingly good quality prints, given it is not marketed by Canon for photo use.
This video follows on from one about the photography and editing for the Druridge bay photo
• A large Black & White ...
There's more about the TC-20M printer in a video looking at printing on the same paper at: • Canon TC20M 24"x36" la...
For my initial TC-20M printer review • Initial review. Canon ...
Canon TC-20 M printer specifications are at:
www.canon.co.u...
For my Epson P5000 review [37 mins] see • Epson P5000 printer re...
The video review follows up on my original P5000 review, which has considerably more detail, technical information and links to related articles/videos
www.northlight...
For info about the Hahnemuhle papers see:
www.northlight...
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[@kevins8575]

We need more judges like you!

[@KeithCooper]

What? ones who don't want to do it ;-) :-)

[@Dahrenhorst]

Actually, only professional artists, printers or critics would be able - and willing - to analyse a print like you do. The average buyer of a print to hang on their wall won't do that. They don't look at the print with a magnifying glass, and if they want to buy what they think is quality, they may look at what paper was used (e.g. Hahnemühle vs. no-name), what ink was used (branded vs. third party or pigment vs. normal ink), and maybe what printer was used (e.g. 10 inks vs. 4 inks) - and that only if they have more than basic understanding of printing parameters. Selling prints to the public is more marketing and branding than quality of production or photography.

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks Yes - I've been try to tell photographers how important it is to understand what their market sees/wants for years. The choice between the two printers here is really about the market you are targeting...

[@ateliercunha2876]

I agree with you Keith that it depends on the market. I think that these Fine Art Prints (FAP) catalogues, longevity, pigments, dyes, are pure marketing and sales strategies for printers, paper and inks. I also think you should agree with this. If we look at the matter from the point of view of art, both An oil work is just as valid as one made with the cheapest and most industrial paints available. Picasso 100 years ago did a lot of work with poor quality cardboard, etc.; and they are still here. The art of the 20th century is full of perishable and in no way noble materials. It's the piece of art that matters, not the material. It is up to art conservators and restorers to take care of art so that it lasts. Ultimately everything will disappear. What if I use this "poster" printer to print photographs and then apply oil paints, watercolors, charcoal on top and a collage with different materials. How is the longevity of the final work? Does it stop being art because someone (Canon) in this example says that this printer does not produce FAP, but only posters? I think this printer is a very pertinent case and you have proven it with these videos, because it allows an "acceptable" photographic quality (for who and compared to what?), to say the least and it has an appearance that others don't have (in this price): the paper size it allows. On top of that, it uses pigments, which are better than dyes; say the FAP curators .-) You won't have software as elaborate as others to control printing, but... you can't have everything. It only has 4 colors; as well as the normal offset too .-) The important thing is whether it satisfies whoever uses it for the intended purpose. All I have to do is know if you can print transparencies for digital negatives on OHP. This is just IMHO. Thanks for the videos. I look forward to the written article.

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - you are right in that there is a lot of marketing in this stuff ;-) Many people would dismiss the TC-20M, but with care with media and colour management it's very capable...

[@ateliercunha2876]

@@KeithCooper Agree .-)

[@goranritterfeldt2608]

Thanks a LOT. Göran from Latvia

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks!

[@pmarzoccojr]

Thank you for the video. Very Interesting

[@KeithCooper]

Glad you enjoyed it

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

Video idea - show a handful of your prints, different subjects, on different papers, and explain why you chose that particular photo and paper combination. Or, grab a few images from the internet and explain which papers you would use for those images.

[@KeithCooper]

Tricky one that... it might imply considerably more forethought and planning than goes on ;-)

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

Ok, cool.

[@mamertobernal4460]

Interesting video again Keith, Guessing that if you really wanted to run the ecoline paper through the TC20m out come the wallpaper scissors again? Or a Big Toilet roll holder .. ? Wait a minute what off cuts and leftover lumps of plywood have I got? Hmm got a pair of bearings somewhere .. Dave Ducks and runs for cover 😅 Dave B Manila ..

[@KeithCooper]

A suitable [3D printed?] 2" to 3" adapter would work - it needs to be more than a basic one because of the spindle-less design. If it was my TX-20M I'd make something! I'll include details in the written review, to show the requirements

[@Gestiondecolor]

​@@KeithCoopertal cual lo que se me ocurrió. Busqué en thingiverse, pero no encontré nada

[@edwardstewart4430]

Just ran across this video. Very helpful information. I was wondering do you make money on selling prints from your printer?

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks Occasionally, but it is not a key element of our business. I've quite a few 'print sales' videos where I go into this in more detail. see my index of them at: www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-cooper-photography-videos-index/#pb2

[@Andreas-Lau]

Hello Keith, Thank for your video. I actually have some questions about selecting the right print size of a picture... Of course it's a matter what the motive is and where you would hang the print. But I would like to get some ideas. What do you consider a 'common' print size for a poster? I think there are some 'standard' sizes out there, but I haven't been lucky to make any sense out of my research. Usually, I go with DIN format, since these are the common used sizes here in Germany. If I want to sell (commercially) poster and photo prints, what criteria would you use to select a 'right' print size for a picture? For you, does it depend of the picture motive or the view distance you would use between viewer and print? Or do you go by available frame sizes? Thank you, Andreas

[@KeithCooper]

For commercial use - go by frame sizes I had a long chat with a photographer in her gallery once about 'what sells' A4 most then A3 a few A3+ and a very few A2 A few panoramics in bespoke frames too... The real question is 'who will buy them' though

[@Andreas-Lau]

@@KeithCooper Thank you very much. That is actually what I thought too. A4 and A3 are the most common sizes. I think A2 would be just per customer request. I use the Epson P900 printer and can print up to 17" - therefore I think the Poster Size would be max 17x25.5 at a ratio 2:3. Haven't printed this big yet. I just imagine to print a poster with Freddie Mercury ...it needs to be impressive ;-) I do have Epson Roll Paper, but - personally - I prefer sheets, just to avoid the hassle with paper curling.

[@lohikarhu734]

Hi Keith; something made me wonder if one could print on the Canon printer in colour, to allow the kind of tonal adjustment that you have on the Epson... I guess that would require quite a bit of fiddling with profiles, and using 16-bit color... I suppose that it would be worthwhile if you wanted to sell "commercial prints" of best quality possible from that big Canon printer... I guess that re-spooling paper onto the smaller cores would also be a little bit "painful". Thanks for another interesting one. 🇨🇦🐻‍❄️ in 🇩🇪

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks Unfortunately, the B&W ink distribution is built into the driver for the B&W mode For B&W the ink transitions and curves are simply not accessible This is why B&W modes are so often better than anything you can do with basic profile building. That's not to say a profile approach couldn't work but it would likely need a lot of custom effort If you want 'best quality' buy a better printer... or sell in a market which simply won't notice ;-)

[@lohikarhu734]

I figured it would take a "nontrivial" bit of work... Only worthwhile if one has a printer, lots of time, and not as much money as an A2/A1 photo printer costs. Thanks Keith! Alles Gute

[@martingemmell3089]

How does the canon printer handle sheet paper or is it better with roll paper? Great series on this printer many thanks for your time and effort in producing

[@KeithCooper]

Sheet works well, but only up to A3. It took a 310gsm art paper just fine

[@freehand5040]

Nice one Keith, is there a Epson equivalent ?

[@KeithCooper]

I don't know for sure. The T2100 is not an ink-tank printer. I'll ask...

[@freehand5040]

@@KeithCooper Thank you.

[@JeffSpeers]

Is the only difference between tc-20 and tc-20m the scanner? Do I lose any other features or abilities by not getting the m version?

[@KeithCooper]

I believe so - I did ask, but never had an absolutely definitive answer I'm afraid.

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

Is there any website with information about which papers are similar? E.g. matte paper MP1 from supplier S1 is similar to MP2 from S2 and so on. I can use such information to decide which paper(s) to buy next.

[@KeithCooper]

Not that I know of. Much of the information I've been given in this respect over the years was in confidence.

[@markopetrovic1154]

Did You test Canon TM-200? Have You experience with this printer?

[@KeithCooper]

Sorry - I've never seen that one. The TC-20M is the only one of this type I've tested so far.

[@lohikarhu734]

Ah, yes, critiques..I've been a fairly decent photographer for a long while (introduction of E6 ), and one does have to ask, several times, if a person really wants a critique.,. Maybe even *what kind* of critique... "Nice photo", " good exposure", " composition needs.. "? And, as you point out, how much coffee you have had, time of day, how " sensitive" the other person is, and... Cheers, 🐻‍❄️

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - why I won't do this sort of thing remotely... ;-)

[@Gestiondecolor]

Es cuestión de adaptar rollos de 3 pulgadas a 2 pulgadas. Quizá se pueda bobinar papel sobre un nucleo de 2 pulgadas ya usado

[@KeithCooper]

English - no translation

[@fredwestinghouse2945]

Do you have a standard, perhaps preferred, matte paper, that you use most often? Are you willing to state what that paper is? Then, will you give a few similar alternatives to that paper? I can use that information to make a choice about which matte paper to try out next.

[@KeithCooper]

For many years I've used Innova smooth rag papers - they appear quite often with other people's labels on the box too ;-) See www.northlight-images.co.uk/keith-coopers-paper-reviews/

[@LDBecker]

Very nice video- brought me back to the days prior to using the ImagePrint RIP (with its profiles of each type of paper for those printers) of trying to get neutral B&W prints from my various Epson printers (1800, 2200 and now 4880). Drove me nuts. I'm still nuts now, but for other reasons... I do a bit of photo restoration of old, damaged black and white photos and getting the tone right was always an issue. I finally decided that I was restoring the image to what it was prior to yellowing, but still chose a paper that would give me a warm tone - like your final example. You mentioned that you printed these at 1440 - why choose that over the printer maximum resolution (2880 on the P5000)? I print color 90% of the time, and when I'm printing for myself or for images for clients, I always choose maximum resolution - but when I'm printing, say, a job of 100 5x7 prints, I'll choose 1440 - mostly for speed of print - but I'm really not sure I can tell a difference. When would you choose 2880 resolution? Or would you?

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks - I find 1440 works well on big BW prints on matte papers - 2880 I'll likely use for colour on baryta and lustre, and for any smaller prints A lot depends on the sort of image... There is a bit more about this in the original review www.northlight-images.co.uk/review-epson-p5000-printer/ and this test www.northlight-images.co.uk/best-epson-p5000-driver-settings/

[@kashyusaf9260]

You probably should open up a critique of work once a month!

[@johnsmith1474]

There was no critique of a work here. This was tech analysis of a product. Still very good and I agree the more the better.

[@KeithCooper]

Thanks, but that's something I'll only do in person - without an audience ;-)

[@KeithCooper]

Yes - very much on the technical side here...

[@kashyusaf9260]

@@johnsmith1474 I know it was, but I thought it would be good to hear some insight from Keith if people send in prints and a TIFF to see what could be improved from his perspective, paper selection etc, but I respect that this isn't for him.