Good VS Bad Writing w/ Philip Chase | 2 To Ramble

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

I had such a blast chatting with the two of you! Thank you for being such gracious hosts. I hope we'll have a chance to discuss more bookish topics in the future!

[@alexanderlavoie5461]

Great insight Phil, prose feels like a slippery thing to pin down in a lot of ways for me. So the way you have explained it really helps me grasp the concept.

[@PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy]

@@alexanderlavoie5461 I’m glad it was helpful!

[@amysteriousviewer3772]

I love listening to Philip Chase. He really knows what he’s talking about. It’s rare to see a scholar of literature treat fantasy and sci-fi with respect instead of derision.

[@OriginalMrocco]

Dude y'all are really networking out here. Incredible collabs recently!

[@2ToRamble]

Thank you!!

[@George__Parasol279]

Philip clearly has such a wealth of knowledge of fantasy, literature, and language, but most importantly he just comes across as such a likeable, passionate dude.

[@2ToRamble]

Absolutely

[@esmayrosalyne]

Doesn't our dear Dr. Fantasy just have the most calming and wholesome presence?! Really fun and educational episode, definitely taking some things away to use for my own book reviewing skills. Also, I can't wait for you guys to try The Way of Edan, it's such a strong debut!

[@adamborst]

Putting on the big boy pants today with the one and only Dr. Philip Chase! Great guest and awesome discussion. I'm not always in the mood for the depth that Philip or AP Canavan get, but it's sooooo good to hear them talk about it. It could be very dry and boring, but they can deliver in an interesting way. Thanks guys!

[@2ToRamble]

🙏

[@aishaarshadalam3412]

I cannot believe I never knew about Philip Chase. This man should be front and centre for all things regarding storytelling and books. Ive watched so many authors talking about how to write but never had such an insightful discussion about it. I will definitely be checking his books out and listening to more of his stuff. Thanks for inviting him on!

[@2ToRamble]

So glad you know about him now! Great guy

[@MicahHarris-k9m]

Another good instructional conversation on lit and writing committed to posterity on KZbin, Philip! Your hosts were sharp and affable. Nice to have discovered their channel through you.

[@SShamus]

Was just going to comment on the last video that Professor Chase would be a perfect guest for y'all, glad to see y'all are ahead of the game 😊

[@2ToRamble]

🫡

[@Talking_Story]

C'mon is there a more awesome dude than Dr Chase!?

[@TraGiiXzaze]

Really fun conversation, and I came away with some new perspectives. It's fun to listen to people who have spent as much time as Philip has thinking about the art of prose. I think that there is a lot authors and readers can learn from some of the great screen writers as it pertains to dialogue in particular. Save the Cat for example is a great starting point to examine story structure, and dialogue.

[@csd8204]

Always appreciate Dr. Chase's detailed, but easy to follow, explanations.

[@N.A.Summur]

Always love to hear Philip talk about prose. Great video!

[@lengy001]

I love hearing you guys speak, and hearing Philip talk about prose is so insightful. This is such a useful topic to discuss. I was looking for ideas on 'good/bad' writing and this video couldn't have come at a better time to learn, thank you!

[@2ToRamble]

Perfect timing - glad you found it useful!

[@happycroissant2]

I love Philip!! So happy you guys got him on.

[@sithmari]

This came out at the perfect time. This was an amazing conversation and I think Dr. Chase really helped define what prose means and its elements. Great video guys!

[@2ToRamble]

Thank you!

[@_jared]

For the record, Rich, you liked Wheel of Time because it is a masterpiece, not just because you were less experienced!

[@LibraryonLegs]

"...on a dead tree." 🤣😅😂 Who'd have thought that I'd spit tea three times during a chat about prose 🤭

[@IndiaTides]

Dr Chase summoned me..

[@Thomas.R.Howell]

Name of the Wind is my favorite book of all time. I literally started a booktube channel because of it. The most beautifully written book I’ve read and I haven’t found anything else since.

[@2ToRamble]

Thats awesome

[@CnoacdeTara]

I love Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, not just for the prose but for the story itself, the same with The Last King of Osten Ard, where the Norn's world and costumes are deeply depicted.

[@authorgloriakitchens]

You guys have been posting absolute bangers lately❤️

[@2ToRamble]

Thankyou!!

[@NoelleD.]

For one, this video has sparked a video idea for me to make and it makes me super excited and I believe everything happens for a reason! I will definitely be quoting things said from this video. And the icing on the cake was the dedication from C.S. Lewis to his God-daughter. What a beautifully written dedication that also shows what growing up is like and idk....I'm literally crying right now from the dedication and Narnia is on my TBR and now I feel like I immediately need to start reading it. A big thanks to both of you and to Philip as well for what is possibly my favorite video from you guys.

[@2ToRamble]

Thank you so much!!

[@mmurphy3608]

Variety is so key. Nothing takes me out of the story then an author using the same phrases or words over and over. Especially when it comes to the dialogue of different characters.

[@christhewritingjester3164]

Oh man, what a fantastic dive into writing. It really makes you think about what aspects you appreciate about the books you love.

[@A.Campbell]

Great conversation

[@enoch1524]

Was finally able to finish this interview. Loved it! Dr Fantasy is always great. Keep up the great work gentlemen and look forward to the next one!!

[@2ToRamble]

Thank you!!

[@billyalarie929]

4:16 Daniel Greene CALLED OUT!!!

[@LibraryonLegs]

Somebody from New Jersey 🤭 Genuinely thoughtful and informative discussion, thank you 🙌🏻

[@2ToRamble]

Appreciate you listening

[@YouWinILose]

What an excellent guest 😊

[@2ToRamble]

Fantastic guy!

[@SaucySkater]

I have been loving the guest episodes!!❤❤

[@2ToRamble]

❤️

[@jakecarlstad6192]

Professor Chase himself! What a streak of guests

[@valliyarnl]

Great video. One of my favorites. Great editing too!

[@charmainekaldwell8481]

I actually liked the info dumping the main character did when she was upset and trying to distract and calm herself

[@iOfTheStormm]

I have come back to the channel the last 3 days, and it makes me so happy to see the sub count going up steadily.

[@2ToRamble]

❤️

[@LibraryonLegs]

Paternus trilogy has so much exposition but it's delivered in a fun way and just keeps your head spinning.

[@qbanboi069]

Very interesting conversation guys. Prose is such an important part of the reading/listening experience and I’m glad you three were able to highlight that. Also.. I feel like having notw on the thumbnail is a shot at me or Richard. 😂

[@2ToRamble]

😈

[@benjaminmolina3456]

REading erikson is like lifting wieghts. I've been reading This River Awakens and its like doing heavy deaadlifts for the brain, I can't do them for much and there has to be long intervals between them. Totally worth it.

[@momo_genX]

Oh, my. I wish I was here for the live. I would have had a lot of fun. See you two goofy guys tomorrow mayhaps, on the Mike's Book Reviews Live Stream. Satire!

[@JuanMartinez-ib7mz]

the GOAT!

[@k.enterante]

Prose is low-key my favorite topic of conversation, writing-wise 👀🖤🤘Another banger, gentlemen 🔥

[@2ToRamble]

🫡

[@LibraryonLegs]

Christopher Buhelman's prose never fails to snag and twist me.

[@fluffypenguins]

Cant watch it all now but i left a like and will be back

[@2ToRamble]

🫡

[@beatriceonbooks]

Great discussion guys ✨️

[@2ToRamble]

Thankya Beatrice!

[@carsonespinoza1767]

Enjoyed the video so much! Yall should check out Phantastes by George Macdonald. I'm in the middle of it right now but so far I'm really enjoying it. It's a classic fantasy that inspired both Tolkien and C. S. Lewis

[@wolfiemac32]

Just in time for my lunch break.

[@cameronpilling6675]

Just posted on the piranesi video, but you guys touched on it here! I just think name of wind would be an interesting one for you guys to do a video on, since good prose doesn’t seem as important to Richard’s enjoyment of a book (way of kings, wheel of power etc which I would argue have bad prose, distractingly so in sandersons case) but would be interested to know if this had a bearing on his distaste for name of the wind

[@chubbycat1871]

Thank you guys for the deep discussion into writing. I now know what Prose means 😅 not Pro’s. 😂 Also, I bought the, “You Teeter my Totter” hoodie, and I will say it is very good quality, so glad I bought it. It makes me want to either read more books when I wear it or watch more of your videos. 😂The Green color does something for my eyes as well, lol.

[@2ToRamble]

Thanks so much! I have the green one too - idk why but it just feels right lol

[@GelidPrince]

You've hit all the big book tubers, so Sanderson interview next?

[@2ToRamble]

Of course

[@heidi6281]

Richard,John @ Talking Story is looking for help to get back into the Wheel of Time. I think a collab with him could be booktube gold! He is up to book 7 . Maybe every other month you can do a spoiler discussion with him!! Please, pretty please?? You are my favorite booktuber when it comes to WOT and John is just my favorite booktuber. He is missing out by not jumping back into Rand-Land.

[@RalphNC09]

A commenter on one of your other videos really nailed it: You guys are collecting the booktube infinity stones. Even faster than Thanos himself

[@2ToRamble]

😈

[@avsambart]

The thumbnail a few hours ago was Name of the Wind and Fourth Wing. And now it's LoTR and Fourth Wing 😂

[@2ToRamble]

We’re testing a few lol

[@LibraryonLegs]

I felt like Janny was just being poured into my psyche lie warm cocoa. I found her style so engrossing.

[@plaidan]

woah if you keep bringing guests on you’d have to change your name to 3ToRamble

[@2ToRamble]

Guest heavy month 🤌

[@sovereigndeleon]

Interesting that you say Red Rising reads more like fantasy when the funny thing is, Christopher Ruocchio actually describes his series as "science fantasy".

[@nazimelmardi]

This will be a nice convo no matter the clickbait title. Philip won’t do a rage video. 😂

[@2ToRamble]

Youre absolutely correct lol

[@LibraryonLegs]

Don't ever apologize for bringing up Terry Pratchett 🤪🤣

[@2ToRamble]

Agreed lol

[@willforlife_]

good interview well down ppl

[@christophermcmahon3069]

I consider purple prose to be “bad” by definition. Pretentious language used intentionally (irony/characterization), isn’t purple. It’s the use of certain language without proper substance to justify it. IMO I could be misguided

[@stephenlogsdon8266]

It’s funny that Rothfuss is put on this pedestal of high prose, when it’s just his opening that is written that way.

[@Beth64]

Have you read "The Narrow Road Between Desires"? Or "The Slow Regard of Silent Things"? I find his prose can be both elegant and lyrical.

[@stephenlogsdon8266]

@@Beth64 I have. Thought “Narrow Road” was wonderful, and yes, that’s after reading the first version. With “Silent Things,” I was a bit impatient. Maybe because I couldn’t relate to the main character, Ari, is that how her name was spelled? While I agree, his prose is both elegant and lyrical, it is in his action scenes where it falls apart, specifically in “Name.” It was much better in “Wise Man’s,” a book I thoroughly loved. The dumb as nails trope was used in it, in both, quite a bit, and it infuriated me at times. But the end result was pretty special. But back to my point, the opening scene describing the “silence” is written differently to the rest of the book, both books, and I think people judge him based on these few opening paragraphs. He is an author I’m trying to emulate in my prose. I’ve been told I write like Sanderson, specifically my latest stuff, and I take that as a complement.

[@Chance.Dillon]

Wohhhhh rich didn’t like Tad?! At least he appreciates him😂 and those are totally fair criticisms

[@macmay3042]

So you would say he is a...prose... pro?

[@MrRosebeing]

I would argue that when you're giving an opinion you can't be objective at all. Everything about reading and writing is subjective.

[@michaelperry8886]

Another book tuber? So when are you guys meeting Brandon sanderson?

[@2ToRamble]

Hopefully at Dragonsteel!

[@colonelweird]

I have some trouble with the way this discussion presented the two prose styles. I'm not quite sure what bothers me, but maybe the distinction between two prose styles seems just too simple, and does not capture the actual variety of fantasy prose styles. Tolkien and Le Guin surely do not use the same style, and Kay is different from both, though obviously you can trace influences and similarities between them. You could say the same thing about, say, Sanderson and Butcher. Here is a random sentence from A Wizard of Earthsea: "Rapidly and aloud he named the places and the boundaries of the village, and then spoke the fogweaving charm, but in among its words he enlaced the words of a spell of concealment, and last he cried the word that set the magic going." With two exceptions, the vocabulary here is very simple; "fogweaving" and "enlaced" raise the vocabulary level a bit, but both terms are crystal clear. The syntax is also clear and simple, yet it's a powerfully rhythmic sentence with a hint of archaism. There is nothing extraneous, no fluff, no stylistic excess. To me, this is a style that involves words that are very basic and simple, but it's still highly refined, poetic language. This use of simplicity to increase intensity is a hallmark of Le Guin's style, but I think it violates the notion that everyday language can only be used in a non-poetic style. I assume readers whose favorite writer is Sanderson would, at least in many cases, not care much for this sentence from Le Guin. But I suspect Sanderson's vocabulary is more complex than Le Guin's; he constantly uses new terminology for his invented worlds. Now I dislike Sanderson's prose style very strongly, and I love Le Guin. The latter brings me into her world in a single sentence, but Sanderson could not achieve the same effect in a whole chapter. I admit I've only read a little Sanderson. I was excited to start reading The Way of Kings, because it was so highly praised, but I couldn't tolerate it after 80 pages. It seemed lazy and bloated and cliched. In contrast, I really enjoy Jim Butcher's prose - I think he does achieve the ideal of completely accessible everyday language while still maintaining interest; he lets the story tell itself, as much as possible. So I'm not simply making a negative value judgment on all "accessible" writers. I think the main issue may be simply that some writers ask more from their readers, and others ask less. But it's not because the two ends represent two different styles. Writers at one end of the spectrum or the other can use very different prose styles to achieve what they want to achieve. One writer may use everyday language but still be highly demanding; another writer may use rococo language but be completely accessible (e.g., in The Dying Earth). It all depends.

[@Beth64]

I tend to agree. And I personally prefer reading more lyrical prose, when written with skill.

[@bryson2662]

I would like to point out purple prose is a pejorative term. You shouldn't use it when talking about good prose. A good example of purple prose is The Eye of Argon. edit: did you delete my other comment?

[@bryson2662]

Accidentally a word

[@Smileysmiley012]

😍😍😍

[@bronzedisease]

the fixation on show but not tell rule has always been terrible advice. John Le Carre frequently "tells" but his prose is probably some of the best there is even in literary fiction

[@scottv5587]

Yes I’ve always felt that was great advice for movies but sometimes the “telling” is just as interesting as the “showing” in books

[@rhuanv]

I think the 80/20 rule is true in this case too. There needs to be some tell, because not everything necessary is interesting. So you need to pass the information, but don't need to waste a chapter on it. Most of all, in books where you don't have many viewpoints, you need to tell some things, because otherwise it just becomes clustered.

[@saysayonara]

Stop whatever you're doing and read the Narnia books!

[@andrewbidwell6421]

That’s a long winded way of saying figure out a style you like, roll with it, and improve it as you’re able.

[@2ToRamble]

2ToYap am I right

[@melindamassey14]

Best writing or movies are full of propaganda or a theme like vampires. It pushes an agenda.

[@jub8801]

Day one of asking the boys to read “The Dark Tower” from Steven king. It’s THE BEST fantasy series frfr

[@TheThespiraea]

Sanderson's style? I'm sorry, but his prose is lacking and it's unreadable. There's a difference between simple and poor. Gemmell? Simple and excellent. Sanderson? Poor and unreadable. Lack of character development, all of them are one-diemsional. Magic system is nothing new, basically novelized 80s/90s RPGs combat systems. He's extremely overrated and overhyped.

[@DorotheaJacob-c5s]

Young Jose Anderson Sarah Clark Angela

[@golovkinko1145]

Big reader .. fantasy is a joke lol of course my humble opinion blah blah… its mostly nonsense not all but most “oh magic system, this guy spits fire but wait the other guy spits water oh look a dragon” overrated

[@abcarr96]

You sound fun

[@KALtheHighstorm117]

Those are the superficial aspects of fantasy. In truth, fantasy can tell any kind of story. It can be a romance just as emotional as any romance novel. It can be a detective story just as intriguing as any detective novel. It can explore thought-provoking themes just as well as the classics. It can do all of these things and have dragons lol. The best fantasy or sci-fi uses those other-worldly elements in ways that explore the previously mentioned qualities. Like how Robin Hobb uses her book's telepathic magic system to explore the themes of human connection and communication. If you don't like the fantastical elements, that's fine. It's your reading taste. But fantasy isn't a joke, and it's not overrated. If you think that fantasy is just mindless magic action, as your comment seems to indicate, then I would ask what fantasy you have read? Because it seems like you've only read the bad stuff lol. I'm not poking fun at you by the way. Just wondering what led you to that conclusion?

[@golovkinko1145]

@@abcarr96 truth is the truth .. anybody picking fantasy over sci-fi got be alittle corny lol

[@golovkinko1145]

@@KALtheHighstorm117 I hear you no disrespect but you explaining something I already know lolI . First law series jade city they are great enoyable .. but if it’s not 5/5 it’s usually downhill .. sci fi is better than fantasy. More realistic innovative explorative .. take that all day instead “hey I didn’t know how to use Magic but I can now but wait big bad guy wants us dead, fairy elf pops up “ lol When things things pop up magic is needed to save the day

[@KALtheHighstorm117]

@@golovkinko1145 Sure, but I feel like you can make that argument for any genre. Deus ex machina can exist in any story. For Sci-fi, everything can just be fixed with some cool technology. In a romance, the author could easily go "Hey, your great uncle who hasn't been mentioned until now just died and left you a huge house and a massive fortune, so all the financial issues that were plaguing your relationship are gone and you two can live happy ever after!" Anything can be fixed like that, but the well written stuff isn't. In the well written fantasy, magic isn't just used as a problem solver. I'm not really understanding your point? If you prefer sci-fi, that's cool, but I don't get your argument for why most fantasy is subpar?