Gospel Writers HATED the Story of Jesus' Baptism

There was a story Mark stuck the other gospel writers with... and they hated it! In this video I unpack it.
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[@cjohnyrun]

Show notes.. - it's not guaranteed that John knew the synoptics. These could just be different traditions. - I misspoke on the role of "the spirit" in Mark. I should have said that Jesus' engagement with the "spiritual realm" is fascinating through the gospel. Not specifically "the spirit", which only really occurs at the beginning. What do you think? Can you see the evolution of the tradition?

[@CBlake-xy5cm]

Thanks so much, Chris! Your side-by-side demonstrations of the gospels are very illuminating!! I find this Bible study process is a quality addition to the scholarly discussions on KZbin about the books of the NT. 🙂 I have always wondered what is going on with the concept of the unpardonable sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? What did that mean to the readers of Matthew, Mark and Luke? What do NT scholars think this was about as it appeared in the socio-religious setting at that time? What did later Christians make of that idea? As a fundamentalist kid, the idea really terrified me: what if I did something wrong in this area and I didn't realize it? Despite hearing many other spiritual warnings from the pulpit in my childhood church, I heard very little about this. So it's a mystery to me to this day. Perhaps you could discuss that question sometime in a video if it fits in with your main topic?

[@cjohnyrun]

@@CBlake-xy5cm That's a great question! I actually don't really know. I'll dig into it and maybe do a future video on it. thanks for the suggestion!

[@PaulWallis]

Superbly done. Thank you, Chris. Keep it coming.

[@cjohnyrun]

@PaulWallis thank you so much!

[@lesliefrates4727]

I enjoyed your appearance on Mythvision! 👍🏻

[@cjohnyrun]

@@lesliefrates4727 thanks very much!

[@bgroesser]

When i read Ehrman's "Orthodox Corruption of Scripture", i never realized how manipulative the baptism it was and what stakes were being planted.

[@cjohnyrun]

@@bgroesser I've never read that one! I have to check it out

[@andymoshi]

Thank you for educating always CJ!

[@andymoshi]

Also see 'The Inquisitive Bible Reader' (another small, but brilliant page), he plans to get more into the New Testament and discuss the Synoptic Problem.

[@cjohnyrun]

@@andymoshi yes! I'm following already. Thanks!

[@jezzaroddy]

I think this is the best thing I've found on KZbin as far as the Bible goes. Tyvm for sharing this. Now, I do have a question: How are you sure that the gospel writers tried to fix the theology by changing the story? Isn't it possible that the verbal messages began to evolve over time and each time the gospel was written it was according to the changes that had come about in people's telling of the traditions?

[@cjohnyrun]

yes, I think that's probably what happened exactly. Hard to know if the specific changes come from the gospel writer's brains or the people they were surrounded by, but it's not hard to imagine it was the latter

[@harrydecker8731]

There are many problems in the gospel stories, Believers tend to gloss over them thinking that they simply don't understand the meaning of God's word. There are those who see the problems but use the weak defense that the original gospels were inerrant and the flaws in the gospels we have today have gone through copies and translations.

[@cjohnyrun]

@@harrydecker8731 yes exactly. The manuscript tradition is a double-edged sword, because people can blame it and believe that the autographs were perfect

[@EduardQualls]

It would be interesting to hear how John's "baptism for the remission of sin" compares to the Jewish mikvah/mikveh ( pl. _mikvoth_ ), and its use in ritual bathing for remission of sin or of ritual contagion. It would seem that John was either spreading the usage to every-day sins, or he was preaching that he could do something that the priests (particularly those of the Second Temple) could not do. (Very few Christians know anything about, much less have even heard of, mikvoth and the Jewish tradition of immersion-purification practices that arose c. 100 BCE.-Many of its uses fell to the wayside with the destruction of the Temple [70 CE], because so many of the acts of purification provided were required only before one was allowed to enter the Temple.)

[@cjohnyrun]

There's definitely a connection, but evoived too. one-time purification instead of repeated. The Didache has instructions with a preference for "living water", mirroring Mikvot practice. The importance of the Mikvot didn't really hit me until I went to Israel and started seeing archeoligcal sites.. The prominence is hard to miss

[@stevenfarthing5094]

It does seem that John the Baptiser was utilizing our ritual bathing. Isn't there a bit somewhere in the Christian Bible that talks about the Apostles having a discussion over someone who had gone through John's baptismal ritual but not the church's baptismal rite of initiation? The mikvot however is a ritual, not an initiation. Only circumcision was accepted as an initiation into the Jewish people.

[@rb8599]

Production note: Side address to the microphone! Microphone mounted up and to the side leaving hand-waving space that will not block the mic! @ 0:39 notice how you lean slightly in the the mic and from that the change in vocal sound. At least with this mic setup, you need to practice posture and 3D mouth position discipline to maintain consistent quality. @9:36 notice how your turn in to the mic (stage left) and then away and the sound seems to momentarily roll off higher frequencies. It is a bit weird as if a dynamic high frequency filter. I have noted this in prior vids. Alternatively if you are not good at mouth position, actually maintain further distance from the mic or consider a shotgun mice for even greater distance.

[@michaelcannon3370]

Really enjoyed your commentary a once born again now atheist I consider myself a humanist and a servant to mankind I recently come back to school to come in EMT and expand my abilities as a first responder for multiple fire department and I am also pursuing my interest in going to Ukraine to serve there to help those folks. The arrogance of Christian evangelicals will never make them right and they don't care as long as it supports your calls which is actually domination of our society thank you for what you do although I am poor I will support you in every way I can

[@cjohnyrun]

Thank you so much for these kind words. Sounds like you have a great mission in mind and I wish you all the best. I don't need anything in particular (other than a like and an occasional comment if you're so inclined). Good luck!

[@wheresmyhovercar]

Thanks for the video 👍

[@cjohnyrun]

@@wheresmyhovercar my pleasure!

[@GospelEd]

I really appreciate your deep dive into textual variations and early Christian writings. One question that keeps coming to mind is how you determine the intent of the Gospel writers with such certainty. Given the diversity of manuscript traditions, theological developments, and the way different early Christian communities interpreted and transmitted these traditions, how do we confidently say what the original author meant (or hated) versus how later traditions shaped their reception? Would love to hear your thoughts on this! Keep up the great content.

[@cjohnyrun]

@@GospelEd that's a good question, and maybe I should do a video about what I'm doing. Most of my work is heavily influenced by biblical scholars. But like all biblical scholarship, it's subject to change with evolving theories. And I can't fully unpack the nuances in any video. Maybe in the future I will try to be clear that there is some speculation going on. Because I can't pretend to fully know the intent of the authors. Unfortunately, KZbin also prefers titles like "the gospel writers hated this" to "this is a possible interpretation of John's intent"... Part of the reality of how attention online works.

[@mattandkim17]

Excellent topic. I wonder if the gospel authors also hated Mark’s story about James and John asking for glorious seats at the right and left of Jesus.

[@cjohnyrun]

@@mattandkim17 I actually don't know. You should check it out!

[@dantallman5345]

It is really interesting how they each deal with the baptism and the baptizer.

[@jfppp1]

Thanks, very interesting.

[@cjohnyrun]

thanks!

[@andymoshi]

"In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. As soon as Jesus came up out of the water, He saw the heavens breaking open and the Spirit descending on Him like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." - Mark 1:11 *Luke 3:22 in the Revised Standard Version even notes - "Other ancient authorities read today I have begotten thee" Some of the manuscript with variants on Jesus baptism, might be Codex Bezae and Codex Washingtonianus which could have said: "this is my son, this day I have begotten thee" I think these were trying to parallel Psalm 2:7 instead, it's also alluded to in the Epistle to Hebrews 1:5 and Acts 13:33. Some early writers who note this rendition. "He was considered to be the son of Joseph the carpenter; and He appeared without comeliness, as the Scriptures declared; and He was deemed a carpenter (for He was in the habit of working as a carpenter when among men, making ploughs and yokes; by which He taught the symbols of righteousness and an active life); but then the Holy Ghost, and for man's sake, as I formerly stated, lighted on Him in the form of a dove, and there came at the same instant from the heavens a voice, which was uttered also by David when he spoke, personating Christ, what the Father would say to Him: 'You are My Son: this day have I begotten You;' [the Father] saying that His generation would take place for men, at the time when they would become acquainted with Him: 'You are My Son; this day have I begotten you." [...] "For this devil, when [Jesus] went up from the river Jordan, at the time when the voice spoke to Him, 'You are my Son: this day have I begotten You,' is recorded in the memoirs of the apostles to have come to Him and tempted Him, even so far as to say to Him, 'Worship me;' and Christ answered him, 'Get behind me, Satan: you shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only shall you serve.'" - Justin Martyr, 2nd Century CE "For at the moment of the Lord's baptism there sounded a voice from heaven, as a testimony to the Beloved, "Thou art My beloved Son, to-day have I begotten Thee." - Clement of Alexandria, 2nd-3rd Century CE "None of these testimonies, however, sets forth distinctly the Saviour's exalted birth; but when the words are addressed to Him, You are My Son, this day have I begotten You, this is spoken to Him by God,..." - Origen, 2nd-3rd Century CE "Now, in perfect agreement and correspondence with what has been said, seems to be this which was spoken by the Father from above to Christ when He came to be baptized in the water of the Jordan, You are my son: this day have I begotten you;" - Methodius, 3rd-4th Century CE "Then a voice from heaven was heard: You are my Son, today have I begotten You. Which voice is found to have been foretold by David. And the Spirit of God descended upon Him, formed after the appearance of a white dove. From that time He began to perform the greatest miracles, not by magical tricks, which display nothing true and substantial, but by heavenly strength and power, which were foretold even long ago by the prophets who announced Him;..." - Lactantius, 3rd-4th Century CE Hipolytus of Rome and other polemics like Irenaeus, Epiphanius describe a "strange" early sect of Christians called Ebionites who were Adoptionists or semi-Gnostics, makes you really wonder eh? 🤔

[@andymoshi]

*Christian polemics writing against so called "heretics"

[@cjohnyrun]

It's a really interesting text critical problem. Because adding "begotten" makes it line up with the prophecy--as you say. But then it was also adoptionist. Justin is writing before the major controversy broke out and apparently isn't too bugged by the language. And of course, it may be what Luke wrote in the first place. I haven't addressed many text critical problems in the videos, because I'm worried it gets a bit too muddy for people.. but this is a really good one

[@andymoshi]

@@cjohnyrun Oh, I thought this one would have been filtered/hidden by KZbin shenanigans, cheers for responding Sir!

[@DeanMcFetridge-ri4mr]

Question: So, at the time that each of the four gospels were written, was it the writer’s intent to produce the most accurate and comprehensive account of Jesus? That is, none of the gospel writers were thinking in terms of their gospel being written in concert with any other gospel? Thank you for your content.

[@cjohnyrun]

@@DeanMcFetridge-ri4mr that's an excellent question. Unfortunately, we can't really know. Obviously the writers in Matthew and Luke knew that they were adapting mark. But it's hard to guess how they felt about this and interpreted it. So much of the process is hidden. All we can do is look at the decisions they made and try to make educated guesses

[@MikeBowman5084]

Great content!

[@cjohnyrun]

@@MikeBowman5084 thanks very much!

[@Adam_Elyon]

I think John was an O.G. Quaker.😂 On a more serious note, It seems that Mark, Matthew and Luke may have been writing with a copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls of Malachi that speaks of 2 Messiahs, but later John may be using a copy that only shows one Messiah to come. Congrats on your Mythvision Interview. I had a good feeling you would be gaining traction on YT.👍

[@cjohnyrun]

@@Adam_Elyon thanks very much! I didn't know about any connection here to the DSS. I will check it out 😁

[@Adam_Elyon]

@cjohnyrun Thank you. I am digging the work you are doing.

[@cjohnyrun]

@@Adam_Elyon thanks so much! I'm having a lot of fun. Honestly, it's nice to be back into learning again too. I put this stuff on the shelf for a few years

[@matthewjebb9719]

It seems you just assume that any addition is a fabrication and any difference in emphasis is an attempt to 'cover up', that the Gospel writers are simply dishonest. The Baptism of Jesus gives me no problems because he came to suffer and die in our place. Would you be happy if people assumed everything you said was suspect and that you were basically dishonest? That seems to what your opinion of the Gospel writers which is your perogative I suppose. For me as a believer I see nothing in the comparison that is troubling. The Gospel of John for example was quite obviously written to emphasize the divinity of Christ, I dont see why that undermines the other Gospels.

[@kirkbozeman2294]

Loving your channel. I'd be very interested to hear your take on what each gospel writer thinks about Jesus' divinity. I'm most curious about whether you think the writer of John actually thinks Jesus = God.

[@cjohnyrun]

That's a great question. I will devote a video to it for sure at some point. I have some ideas, but I want to do a bit more research to make sure I'm solid with the scholarship

[@jamesshepherd6491]

Did I hear you say that in Luke Jesus is not baptized by John the Baptist? It most certainly implies it though in chapter 3:21 - "Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened,"

[@cjohnyrun]

yes, I think that's fair. My point was that Luke doesn't explicitely say it--but I think it also has to do with how he is using his sources

[@jamesshepherd6491]

@@cjohnyrun Yes you did show very well how John's baptism of Jesus posed a problem for the ever evolving Christian doctrines, and how the later written gospels tried to cope with it. I enjoy your channel very much. Thanks.

[@cjohnyrun]

@ Thanks so much! Have a great weekend :)

[@CMKFilmz]

John the Baptist was dead long before he could have given his testimony. John was written in 90AD

[@noahcole6856]

What is your salvation theology

[@pathfinder1273]

Thank God that He has again revealed His Will through a new Revelation which explains things so very clearly in the actual hand of the one to whom it was revealed. I do not have to go through all this holy detective work of translating, interpreting, and cross-referencing. I just read His new words and I know what they mean because they are in their original, revealed form. Churchians guess at the truth, I read the truth.

[@LittleSeasonEschatology]

My understanding is that Jesus came to keep the law. He was circumcised on the 8th day. When John appeared, he had a new command. Be baptized for the remission of sins. I believe this is why Matthew says it is to fulfill all righteousness. Jesus was baptized to keep the law.

[@MrBlakeD82]

Part of my deconstruction journey was reading the gospels in written order rather than presented order, and doing so without presuppositions. Reading the gospels as such made me see Mark as a very adoptionist gospel, with Jesus seemingly being just a particularly pious man chosen by God to be his son. It certainly changes how you see Jesus on the cross, especially crying out about God forsaking him. This particular reading gives us an understanding of the tearing of the veil of the Temple being a mirror of the tearing open of the heavens to Jesus. The heavens were torn open to allow Jesus access to God, then the veil of the temple was torn open to allow the people access to God. The Spirit in Mark acts more like the spirit presented in 1 Kings 22, as the Spirit that functioned as commanded by God, but not God himself.

[@cjohnyrun]

@@MrBlakeD82 yes, I agree. The evolution of the spirit is so fascinating. And the spiritual realm in mark, demons recognizing Jesus even when others don't, etc.

[@DeveloperChris]

Was Jesus Literate? If he wasn't he wasn't God. if he was, where is the gospel/writings of Jesus?

[@cjohnyrun]

@@DeveloperChris it's impossible to know really. Luke portrays reading a scroll

[@DeveloperChris]

@@cjohnyrun If he was God he could read and write any language even those not yet invented, and dog and cat and mouse. If he couldn't he isn't god. No writings, not god or an incredibly inept god. I am betting on the former.

[@maxonmendel5757]

notification gang

[@cjohnyrun]

@@maxonmendel5757 🙏

[@ulsterscot]

Mark was the earliest ? In 70ad? But surely revelation was written pre 70? Hard to believe anything was written post 70

[@cjohnyrun]

Most of the New Testament was. Save Paul's authentic letters and maybe Mark and Q

[@ulsterscot]

@ given what happened in 70 ,,, hard to think anything was written post. Even the evidence for a late date of revelation is minimal. Most now going for the early date of revelation. Ken gentry made a fairy convincing argument - in my opinion.

[@paulgryniewicz5650]

Please explain that is not just pure supposition on your part. Other than guessing we do not know who actually rote the four gospels. It’s all tradition so then how do we know what they were thinking. How can you speak for someone 2000 years ago. Besides the Bible is not a newspaper or history book it is mostly written as allegory. The meaning is what matters not the details.