288: Why "Pious Fraud" Bothers Critics & Supporters (Part 2 of 9 Dan Vogel)

[@gordonquickstad]

Bingo. I think Dan Vogel has Joseph Smith nailed.

[@metacomputer]

Dan Vogel opens many doors for students of the Book of Mormon....I see connections with both Native American and Amazonia Shamanic practices. In those societies, unlocking memories or “speaking” to ancestors is part of the culture. This may be the phenomena that Joseph Smith encountered, unlocking a memory of a lost people. Through a lost methodology ..Which would not seem out of place or far fetched in Amazonia or for example in the modern Native American Church. Thank you respectfully.

[@deskjockie4948]

Many famous people are "known for good and evil". This doesn't mean anything, except that humans are very judgemental and have strong opinions regarding any number of people and issues.

[@s.a.6082]

It also shows that people are very complicated and very rarely either “good or bad”

[@theGentlemanCaller73]

I hope you'll have the chance to interview Stanford Carmack and discuss Book of Mormon stylometry. He shows quite convincingly that the Book of Mormon has considerable amounts of Early Middle English--language, syntax and grammar that was obsolete by Joseph Smith's time. That the "bad grammar" of the Book of Mormon, is actually EME grammar. interpreterfoundation.org/author/stanfordc/ I'm not a practicing Mormon and I don't care if "the church is true" or not. But I do believe the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. It is simply too complex of a book to be dictated from Joseph Smith's imagination. Its theology is so drastically different from LDS theology. One example: "The fulness of time." Lehi, Nephi, Paul and the KJV translators all refer to the "fulness of time" as the post-Christ era. That we've been living in the "fullness of times" for 2,000 years. Joseph Smith used "fulness of time" to refer specifically to his day. Why would Joseph Smith put "fulness of time" in Lehi and Nephi's mouths--in perfect harmony with Paul--only to deviate and change the meaning? These things don't make sense. Another example: Book of Mormon writers condemn the idea of proxy ordinances and post-mortal repentance. Yet by 1840 Joseph Smith introduced baptism for the dead, nullifying a significant portion of BOM doctrine. Again, doesn't make sense. I appreciate Dan's work, but he's taken a far too simplistic view of the Book of Mormon.

[@allisonalexander2269]

The bom is simple if you know the real truth. Joseph Smith said the golden plates were in the hills of cumorah for 6,000 years. Joseph Smith translated the plates through a scribe into the bom. But included in the bom is the King James Version 1769!. View of the Hebrews written by Ethan Smith 1823 is included. Captain Kidd a pirate in the eighteenth century is included. Errors in the bom make it plagarised.

[@theGentlemanCaller73]

@@allisonalexander2269 No one claimed the BOM was in the Hill Cumorah for 6.000 years. They were buried around 420 AD, meaning they were in the ground 1,400 years. You need to study up a little more before making accusations. I encourage you to read Stanford Carmack's articles.

[@wildbillslunksauce7621]

How do you explain elephants being in the Book of Mormon, when those didn’t exist in Central America? How about why was 1 Nephi talking about John the Baptist’s sandals just like the KJV Bible in 600 BC?

[@giuliom3564]

​@@wildbillslunksauce7621It's not a problem cause Joseph Smith used the King James version every time he found a Bible reference. Elephants maybe existed there and then got died all

[@metacomputer]

Point on Freemasonry: Andrew Jackson was a Freemason. However so were Joseph and Hyrum Smith. Hyrum was WM Master of the Nauvoo Lodge. The Nauvoo Lodge is still there and can be visited.

[@scottwins2]

Joseph Smith's signature only appears twice at masonic lodge.

[@wormwoodcocktail]

I also don’t get how he’s anti-Mason when he incorporated Masonic elements into the temple ceremonies.

[@charlesmendeley9823]

I recommend reading the book "Method Infinite - Freemasonry and the Mormon Restoration". It discusses the topic in detail and answers many related questions.

[@wormwoodcocktail]

@@charlesmendeley9823 Thank you!

[@rmhutchins7]

I had heard / read ? that the 1838 account was composed and written by someone other than Joseph Smith (I apologize, I do not remember who is was); is that correct?

[@GospelTangents]

Probably. Joseph wrote very little himself and relied on scribes. (Joseph didn't write the Book of Mormon either--It was mostly written by Emma, Martin, and Oliver.) I would expect that whoever wrote it had collaborated with Joseph.

[@danvogel6802]

Joseph Smith was involved in the beginning in the early parts where there were no documents to rely on, but later others took over editing between quoting documents with his oversight. The history was finished up to 1838 when Smith died, thereafter others put the rest together without being able to have Smith's review.

[@stevelenores5637]

The "good" thief" belongs in prison with the bad ones. More so because it teaches that you can steal and be a "good" person.

[@marlenemeyer9841]

Good point. “Pious Fraud” to me is a way for fraudulent people to try to justify their actions. I do think Joseph justified his fraud to himself and believed he was inspired…..similar to Lori Vallow Daybell, but it doesn’t change the fact that Lori is guilty just like Joseph is. Believing your actions are right does not excuse criminal acts. A pious fraud is just a delusional criminal.

[@wormwoodcocktail]

Doesn’t Christ say the good thief goes to Heaven too?

[@stevelenores5637]

@@wormwoodcocktail Not sure why I wrote that 2 years ago. You are right. The repentant thief is taken to heaven with Christ.

[@wormwoodcocktail]

@@stevelenores5637 I think you were referring to the video’s title - “pious fraud”. I was just taking issue with your language because that story demonstrates that a “good thief” requires repentance.

[@metacomputer]

Is it a fair question to ask, what is the difference between a “Pious Fraud” and “ A Chosen Vessel” ? And how are we to tell the difference? St. Paul started at a different place, of persecution of the Saints, and ended up a Martyr for the Faith. It seems Joseph and Hyrum also became Martyrs for the Faith. Thank you...Respectfully....