Gothic 1 - from the perspective of an indie developer

[@bencemervay]

Hey! Regarding the cinematics: I totally forgot, that there is one more :D The conclusion of the final boss battle is shown as a cinematic; however, there is nothing after that, only voice-over, so in that regard I was right about there not being a proper outro. Sorry for the mixup! I hope you really like the rest of the video!

[@nocturnal101ravenous6]

You have it backwards, RPGs are meant to be complex systems, players and fans of RPGs don't want simplicity of systems, otherwise you are not making an RPG you basically are making an Action game with watered down elements of what an RPG is, this is where someone like Todd Howard went wrong with Skyrim and you risk the difference between making a game that is progressive like previous Bethesda titles, or mundane garage that could have been better. Old RPGs were so good because there were choices and you had consequences to those choices, which is the hallmark of what makes an RPG and RPG, these days it kind of sucks because systems have to be put into place so people who cannot seem to make an intelligent choice need convenience options basically stripping the point of the genre away.

[@bencemervay]

@@nocturnal101ravenous6 Hello, thank you for the comment! I do not necessarily agree that RPG-s are meant to be complex, however, I generally agree that complexity is a net positive (however, I think it is entirely possible to create an overcomplicated system). But I think you might have missed the point of my video. I am not against complex systems. I do not say that a Skyrim or a Fallout 4 is a better RPG than a Baldur's Gate or a Divinity Original Sin 2. However, I made this video from the perspective of a solo developer. If you are solo (or in a small team) you will need to cut corners somewhere. And becasue of that, you will need to focus on the essence of each systems. Let me give you an example. Equipment is very important in an RPG. The more slots you have the more variety and choice you have (both in terms of stats and visuals), and in an RPG it is important. Also, there is the feeling of progression as you obtain more powerful armour. If you are a solo dev, you might not have the time to balance and design that many individual pieces. But, for example, you can focus on the progression and visual part; just like Gothic does, and offer armours as single items, but tie it to progression in the story. I totally agree that a multi-slot armour system is better, but if you develop solo, you will have to make sacrifices.

[@nocturnal101ravenous6]

@@bencemervay Solo is tough but an RPG is biting off more than you can logistically chew, what you want to focus on is action based games with light RPG elements, and advertise it as such don't fall into the trap of just calling it an RPG like AAA studios seem to like to do, it's rather embarrassing for them. Small dev teams are manageable Diablo from condor games(before being called Blizzard North) was a small dev team, Larian was originally 13 people in a basement that were very ambitious. It's possible it may not be practical focusing like you said on specific aspects that you can manage and make perfect systems is always better than having rag tag half finished ones. Solo development you only have so much time unfortunately, However I do believe in the future most games are going to be made by small 20 and under dev teams mainly due to AI which can spot and test code at quick rates compared to the over bloated corporate structure like what was stated by the old Obsidian director about newer game development. 1 thing I will say to you passion overcomes all and games always show when you have people that have passion behind their work, that always propelled the industry forward.

[@lordtea7688]

@@nocturnal101ravenous6 tbh RPG means literally Role Playing Games - the thing is most video games focus a lot on the "Games" and they forget about the "Role Playing" one. Skyrim is a great example of being a action rpg with a huge focus on the game itself as - without mods - you have very little control over your character skills and expertise (or like most people you will - sooner or later - go for sneak-archer build because its superior to everything in terms of efficiency). There is no hard line what a RPG is but overall it should focus on role-playing a fictional character so obviously more customisation options = the stronger the RPG system.

[@nocturnal101ravenous6]

@@lordtea7688 There is absolutely a "Hard Line" on what an RPG is, RPGs were created with the creation of D&D and GURPS, the sole tenant of an RPG is to make choices and there to be consequences to those choices, The very first ARPG was Diablo, Diablo from Blizzard North is a turn based game sped up into realtime and there were consequences to your choices that Defined 1- Your Character 2- The Environment aka the world space 3- The Narrative. Just because you have elements of something does not make a full blown version of that very thing is. Skyrim is very very stripped down especially when compared to all the previous versions in the series, Bethesda/BGS was always Progressive and did things that weren't really done before, unfortunately when Todd Howard took over he simplified all the Games, there is a reason mechanically why New Vegas is considered the best Fallout game in the series, Obsidian Entertainment was made up from people from Black Isle Entertainment, People like Sven from Larian have gone over this multiple times and Studios like Larian have continually out sold Publisher Expectations, RPGs were never a niche of the gaming community, they were the gaming community until even long after Call of Duty came along, Blizzard was extracting 14 million subscribers on a monthly basis at their height for above 10$ a sub and that is a watered down RPG experience that doesn't qualify as an RPG, its an MMO that is all with RPG elements, Zelda games are not RPGs they are Fantasy Action Adventure Games.

[@GreenNovis]

"Then unity did the thing, so now i am learning unreal" Its sad how many times i heard a version of this.

[@bencemervay]

I hope that with the changes introduced in the previous months, Unity will be able to alter its course for the better. I still prefer C# over C++ and blueprint, but being proficient in only one engine (especially one who retroactively changes the TOS) is not the way to go.

[@kamilbeben9900]

@@bencemervay What are your thoughts on Unreal after 3 months? I've been learning UE5 and the basics of Blender for the past 6 months or so, but this is my first time using using a big game engine so I don't have any first hand experience to compare to.

[@bencemervay]

@@kamilbeben9900 hey! Thank you for the question. I really like unreal. Eventually I want restart my rpg project in it. I really like the tools that come built-in with unreal, and not just that, but unreal builds tools that developers actually need, not like what unity did with ziva. Also, the quixel assets are very good, although they are definitely not a good fit for every single game, but still, one should at least appreciate such high quality stuff being free. I think unreal is a great choice, however, the same applies to unity or to most engines out there. You really need to find the perfect engine for the project you want to do.

[@kamilbeben9900]

​@@bencemervay I saw huge potential in quixel library as well, but after a few weeks of trying to actually build an area using realistic assets I came to the conclusion that I'm wasting time - doing realistic graphics is very time consuming, even with all these assets provided (blending them together, tweaking some parts, and there's always need to do something custom that you can't find in the library). Right now I'm experimenting with stylized graphics, it still looks good if the whole scene is consistent and is much less time consuming to implement

[@bencemervay]

@@kamilbeben9900 I once tried photoscanning a book, it looked good with quixel assets (the video about this is on my channel). But yeah, if I would use quixel assets in a game I would probably alter the textures (to something cartoony).

[@matsanw]

Always thought the Gothic formula was perfect for smaller studios too. A compact world, carefully crafted with meaningful content seems much easier to deal with a limited budget than huge open worlds filled with cities and dungeons. Nowadays there are some indie studios that put AAA studios to shame, i'm sure they could do something wonderful with it. Too bad most people's reference is still the Elder Scrolls series, but we'll see. Can't wait for the remake to see how it goes and if it has any impact.

[@kamilbeben9900]

That's my thoughts as well. I've been playing around with procedural generation for a few weeks in unreal but came to the same conclusion, small but dense worlds are much more interesting and enjoyable, procedural generation is best left to handle unimportant visuals like foliage placement.

[@ravanpee1325]

Gothic 1 was a AAA at this time

[@z74d-oy2uj]

Problem with Gothic is that after Gothic most other games seem silly

[@thesummerofmark]

Hey thanks for the shout out! I’ll check your video out, I’m always curious to hear the dev side of things

[@bencemervay]

Thank you for the reply! I hope you will like it! :)

[@vertigo7082]

Nice work man! Thanks for linking me under the video!

[@bencemervay]

I really like your video style, so of course :)

[@kip_c]

It is very strange playing thru gothic and gothic II retroactively today. I see elements and mechanics in these games from 2001-2002 that are mostly attributed to many modern rpgs, and even then it feels like they don't achieve even a fraction of the immersion that Gothic achieves.

[@bencemervay]

Agreed. I do not often see games in which wild animals go to sleep, for example.

[@kip_c]

@@bencemervayThat's actually something Elden Ring did recently that I thought was pretty rare

[@khatack]

YES! FINALLY!! Why the hell isn't there a hundred million Gothic clones simply boggles my mind! The whole concept of Gothic in terms of gameplay and narrative structure is so good that I really can't understand why everyone hasn't been jumping on it for 2 decades already.

[@zuiop9993]

I'm alwas excited when a video about Gothic gets recomended to me. I think you did a great job explaining the design of gothic. I always wondered why there are no small teams being inspired by this game. I would love to explore interesting 3 km² much more than the average game world out there. Skyrim and similar games bore me to death. Gothic is still the king of RPGs!

[@mrm1987]

It is crazy how immersive this game is, even to nowadays standarts. I know that there was a Witcher 3 Trailer that promissed me a functional ecosystem, with small critters at the low end of the spectrum and apex predators at the top. Of course there was never one. Gothic at least had some kind of ecosystem, with Scavangers hunting Bloodflys, Wolfs hunting Scavangers, Goblins, who loves to eat Fish, so they were found at Rivers, where there were Lurkers who loves to eat Goblins. Shadowbeasts who will only be awake in the night and so on. Really immersive shit for some game of 99/2001 release. And this is but one reason, why Gothic I even to this day really stands out. The only game I have played, that really mastered that ecosystem feeling was Stalker with it's "A-life"-System, that let other NPCs more or less freely roam the zone, so you will have different encounters each time you travel to places across the zone. Same goes for the NPCs. In Gothic I eventhough limited, every NPC followed their daily routines, for example in the morning they would work on their hut but in the evening they drink beer at a campfire. In Witcher 3 all the NPCs were doing the same stuff over and over, for all eternity, beeing like a set stage from some theatrical play and only for this one purpose day and night. For me, this was only mastered just "recently" by RedDeadRedemption2.

[@mischief9672]

This is a really impressive dive into an old game outside of my bubble in the US. Its art style reminds me of the Fable prototype, but I guess that was kind of the style at the time. These old mechanics help indie devs a lot, resource saving mechanics are today's time savers.

[@thebookofive]

I've been a Gothic fan for the most of my life and I couldn't agree more. The game still feels fresh and exciting after all these years because of the intentionality and depth of its design.

[@thesummerofmark]

Finally got around to watching the video, I’m leaving another comment for the algo: excellent work. One of the best Gothic-related videos on YT

[@bencemervay]

Thank you for the compliment!

[@I3urton]

I LOVE Gothic reviews, analyses, in-depth looks, anything! First played this game as a child and even today it still impresses me with the sheer amount of innovative ideas it brought to life.. in 2001!

[@bencemervay]

I am glad you liked it! :)

[@I3urton]

​@@bencemervay And I am glad you enjoyed this brilliant (albeit flawed) gem enough to make a video about it! You have fine taste, my man :D

[@oredaze]

"Quality > quantity". Yes, you nailed it. Not many games get this right, especially modern ones with high budget. I don't need an enormous map. I need map with good stuff in it.

[@JohnSmith-eg9lc]

Good video. Stopped watching after the open world segment and bought the game. Will watch the rest after I finish the game to avoid any possible major spoilers later on in the video.

[@bencemervay]

Good choice! I tried to keep the video spoiler-free as much as possible, but of course I had to spoil a few smaller quests. I hope you will have a good time with the game! :)

[@Tarimoth]

If you get it to work and like it, Gothic II is even better

[@aligmal5031]

i don't understand how many developers didn't use the chapter system and the world / enemies changing with each chapter it's such a good system instead of the grinding we get with most games

[@Grenadier-qg5ym]

Gothic becoming linear after chapter 2 is caused by time/budget constraint, Michael Hoge did a great presentation about gothic 1, they had to cut a lot of stuff like the abandoned mine, the orc city, they wanted the mine colony to get darker and more violent with each chapter and have orks wander around the world in the end. But they had to cut a lot of it as well as basically all side quests after chapter 1 or 2. I hope the gothic remake really delivers a game that lives up to the potential gothic had if given more time/resources…

[@bencemervay]

@@Grenadier-qg5ym thank you for the information!

[@zeedar412]

Hey, great first video! I never got into Gothic as a kid, but I'll give it a go - you did a good job selling it. Szép munka. 😄

[@bencemervay]

Köszönöm szépen! :)

[@matthewdemarey4762]

As a fellow wannabe solo RPG developer (I love that you phrased it that way, lmao), just leaving a comment to say this is criminally underrated! Sadly most of this was common sense to me, but your presentation and unique perspective definitely make the video entertaining *and* educational, so just doing my part to help push the video out to a wider audiance that needs to hear this! Also don't doubt yourself so much! With all the tools available, *especially* in Unreal, and your much less ambitious goal than myself, I'm sure you'll finish your game as long as you have the drive to!

[@bencemervay]

Hey! Thank you for the kind words :) I wish you luck on your game!

[@matthewdemarey4762]

​@@bencemervay Of course, you too!

[@ancaudaniel1699]

absolutely love the way and also what, you highlight, i d love more of those reviews, focusing on highlighting how devs think about this

[@bencemervay]

Hi! Thank you for the kind words! I have a few more games which I would like to review in the future, so stay tuned!

[@SuperStupendousman]

It's really interesting how Gothic even managed to be as successful as it was, especially since the gameplay elements you described were secondary to the development at best. Nearing release the attitude at PB Studio was more or less a "let's just smash everything that works together and hope for the best" since the publisher was getting annoyed and the tec itself became slowly outdated. The only game that comes close in comparison to Gothic in my opinon is Shadow of Chernobyl, an overambitious and costly game stuck in development hell which had to cut about 50% of content and yet still became an instant cult classic.

[@bencemervay]

@@SuperStupendousman hm, I have not played with that game yet.

[@thunderstar64]

Loved the video, its very inspiring to me as someone who wants to create games but is too afraid to really put in the time to learn because all my ideas just seem to big

[@bencemervay]

I understand your fear, I still feel it myself sometimes. Start small! That way you will gather knowledge and confidence! I have faith in you! :)

[@kamilbeben9900]

Hey, if you ever decided to try gamedev - start by writing a design document describing in detail all of the mechanics, general idea of the world and significant storylines. This way you'll have a list of problems you'll need to learn how to solve, it's really much less intimidating to start learning how to use a game engine when you have a set path. Also, design document is extremely helpful while talking about the game with other people you might want to work with - even small RPGs are very complex pieces of art and such problems are best handled in a small team.

[@ArhonOkvals]

Fantastic video, man, and a great breakdown of what we can learn from Gothic! I am always happy to see new Gothic content on KZbin. I really hope you succeed in making your game! 🎮

[@lexter8379]

Great video! I was just thinking about Gothic as a great archetype for indie RPG so its like youtube is reading my mind.

[@bencemervay]

Yeah, it is scary :D

[@michaaelallen6189]

Love this! I’d love to hear what you think about the evolution of the genre! Like what key elements were passed down that changed rpgs!

[@bencemervay]

Hi! Thank you very much for the comment. I am afraid I have not played nearly enough rpg-s to have a comprehensive understanding about the genre's development, but the idea definitely sounds interesting, and it fits well into my channel's profile. In any case, I will keep this idea in mind, who knows how my channel (and my free time) will develop in the future...

[@michaaelallen6189]

@@bencemervay any deep dive into your thoughts on development or maybe how you feel about a certain game system would be cool! Anyway. Thanks for the reply! Can’t wait for the next video whatever it may be!

[@SaikingSS]

Really cool viedo, it's kinda funny bsc 3 days before this video shows on my main page I was discussing this exact topic with friends in a pub! :D

[@bencemervay]

@@SaikingSS glad you liked it! :)

[@SaikingSS]

@@bencemervay I'm also indie dev, making my rpg game, tho a bit different than gothic, more like dungone crawler in king's field series style, but in the future I would love to try making gothic-like game, so it's cool to know other peoples working on their own gothic-likes! :D

[@Vaul2501]

Hi, cool to see another indie dev having gothic as inspiration. But im sticking with Unity, cant imagine learning new engine while having full time job, wife and 1 year old baby. About problem with scale of RPGs. I can share idea that game can be made in chapters. Still have to make all the systems, but at least world building can be split into peaces. Good luck with project.

[@porkyorcy1715]

i have a bunch of shots of the low poly terrain as inspiration in my pinterest dev board, seeing this video has validated them all 😅

[@bencemervay]

Do you mean terrain from Gothic 1?

[@porkyorcy1715]

@@bencemervay yes 🥺 there's lots of nice pics on pinterest of it, it always looks excellent

[@thevikingsock8527]

Not just for indie Games

[@ArniesTech]

4:50 the "dated" graphics ARE making the atmosphere so amazingly dense and cozy. If I imagine Gothic 1 in UE5 🤢🤢🤢🤮🤮🤮

[@bencemervay]

Yes, the remake feels a bit odd to me. Does it look better? Yes. Does it look right? Not really. And I cannot explain what feels strange about it.

[@CapitanBreakfast]

Great video and analysis. Thank yosu very much for making your dedication and making your opinion public. I am a Test Lead by profession but some day, I will find time to devote to a home cooked RPG that would apply some of the lessons learned form games like our beloved Gothic.

[@Romkar]

Good video, welcome to youtube recommendations!

[@Blacknarock]

The progression in gothic games is all i loved at these games. I love the game with all its flaws. Is the opposite of perfection and i love every bit of it

[@wilddreams]

it bugs me that no slightly major releases try to copy the open world design from gothic. it is the perfect blueprint.

[@humblehornet621]

A great, great but flawed game that I still play till this day. Also it got me into programming which became my profession and still is. Thank you Gothic and Piranha Bytes!

[@lordtea7688]

Oh, hi. YT just recommended me this xD

[@bencemervay]

Nice! How did you like it?

[@lordtea7688]

@@bencemervay In terms of argument presentation it's really good, you made some points that i forgot about in my video :) Also 20:34 that's some THICC ass xD

[@bencemervay]

@@lordtea7688 I am glad you liked the points I made :)

[@christianpucel8711]

good stuff

[@absolutsolo2763]

Did you know you get xp twice, if you knock down a npc and kill him with a cross/bow after heed stood up again?

[@bencemervay]

Hi! Yes! But I am not sure that this is intentional. It was removed Gothic 2.

[@khatack]

As a rule of thumb, the less cutscenes the better. It's a game, attempting to turn it into a movie is folly and can only happen at the expense of the game.

[@bencemervay]

True, a game should be played, not watched. However, in certain cases, cutscenes are necessary, for example when you are setting up your world or back story.

[@khatack]

@@bencemervay True, perhaps I should've phrased it "as few as you can get away with".

[@Imighthaveseenyouinh]

But the real quaestion is "Is Gothic better than Morrowind?"

[@bencemervay]

I do not know if such a comparison is possible. In some aspects, yes, Gothic 1 is better (eg. combat, npc behaviour). In others, Morrowind is better (story, lore, maybe exploration). I think it boils down to personal preference. For me Gothic 1 is better, but I think I am biased.

[@Imighthaveseenyouinh]

@@bencemervay Thank you for answering the such a joking question.

[@FroyGirikananlover-g3e]

Nope

[@thevikingsock8527]

Yes of course

[@thevikingsock8527]

​@@bencemervaygothics Exploration is better

[@TurinInquisitor]

Yeees!

[@ravanpee1325]

Gothic 1 was a AAA game at this time like Morrowind

[@bencemervay]

@@ravanpee1325 yes, that is true.

[@AlexAegisOfficial]

Én is így vagyok vele, a Gothic remek alap, a permahalál-t én is beleépíteném a projektembe ha tartanék ott

[@bencemervay]

@@AlexAegisOfficial ezt hogyan érted? Mit értesz permanens halál alatt?

[@AlexAegisOfficial]

@@bencemervay NPCk, mobok, ha megolsz egyet ugy is marad a jatek vegeig, nincs respawn. Chapterek kozott rak be ujakat de az ettol fuggetlen.

[@bencemervay]

@@AlexAegisOfficial jaaa. Hirtelen azt hittem, hogy a játékosnak van permadeath. Hát igen, nem sok játékról tudok, ahol szó szerint ki lehet irtani az összes ellenséget

[@danieladamczyk4024]

Do you want to make game that traped in the colony or the game that makes you "feel" like you are traped in the colony?

[@bencemervay]

Hello! The 'Colony' is part of the Gothic franchise, owned by Pyranha Bytes who are owned by THQ Nordic (at least I think that is the current situation). So I cannot make a game that is set inside the Colony; I do not have the rights to use that location. I have a couple of ideas where my game will take place. I do not necessarily want the player to feel trapped, but what I want is to have a small open world and a good ingame explanation for why the map is small. Maybe it is an island. A canyon. A cave system. It does not matter.

[@danieladamczyk4024]

@@bencemervayOk, better question. Do you want player to feel powerful?

[@bencemervay]

@@danieladamczyk4024 Towards the end, yes. In the beginning: no way.

[@danieladamczyk4024]

@@bencemervayThen i wish a good luck, but the game you cooking aint for me.

[@bencemervay]

@@danieladamczyk4024 that is fine. Not every game is for everyone. You should play with the stuff that appeals to you. Also, my game is very very far from being ready.

[@trollreign1046]

Fasza

[@Gradashy]

The lack of Character Customization is a no to me, I don't want to play the game with a Random Dude that does not represent anything to me. This is why I play the Gothic at Home that is Nehrim and Enderal :)

[@bencemervay]

I do not fully understand what you are saying. To my knowledge, Nehrim and Enderal are Elder Scrolls mods (Oblivion and Skyrim, respectively), I do not know how they connect to Gothic.

[@Gradashy]

@@bencemervay they are games made on Bethesda engine, full games. And they are Gothic at core, the SureAI that are the devs not even try to hide the references. And they are German.

[@FaLiar]

nem akarod az egészet magyarul is elmondani? :)

[@bencemervay]

Helló! Még nem gondolkoztam rajta