Grading Frost & Unholy Death Knight w/ Atlas, Taeznak, & Bicepspump

[@Sorae90]

You couldn't have got better people for this discussion really, good job. A special shoutout to Bicepspump. This dude is constantly pumping out educational videos and is being super active and helpful in the Archerus Discord server ♥

[@woodjt5]

The DK community is S tier. Thanks guys

[@Noster920]

I love biceps. He actually responds to questions and comments on his channel

[@leosarkis]

thats a stacked DK team right there, banger video for sure.

[@Miniath]

PI is a Plague to literally every spec that its good for

[@Experiment.626]

Agreed.

[@Cael175]

Could sit and listen to these guys talk about DK for hours without getting bored. They all stayed engaged and reacted to each other saying how cool it feels at times playing these specs. You can tell they just fucking love DK. The discord is one of the few I feel comfortable asking genuine questions without worrying about getting mocked or a pedantic answer. Keep up the great work guys. 💜

[@Malacine]

Horn of Winter used to give the entire party X% attack power prior to Legion. Bring that utility back I say.

[@coleragsdale4827]

Eh, overlaps with warrior one, doesn't fix anything. Could have it give like 3%strength and agi instead.

[@jagosvujovic2086]

they also used to share that buff with a few other classes though

[@FireSignd]

Not only would that take away from another class that is already marginalized by it's utility, it wouldn't help DK at all. Warrior is just as much dependent on DPS tuning when it comes to the M+ meta as DK.

[@TheFabulousEnby]

Max please keep this format and keep getting these high-quality guests I absolutely cannot wait for you to do the other classes and I'm considering for this expansion. I'm probably not playing death knight but this was such a banger video I listen to the entire thing on my way to an appointment today.

[@oLycan]

Watched this vod on youtube yesterday, watching now for the actual video just for the Fronk editing

[@JakeSezz]

Yup same 😂

[@gruncleiroh5525]

Can't wait to watch Max go crazy for the Windwalker talk. Hope he does more.

[@Bacon-egg-cheese]

Cant wait for the ww talk

[@dacbiet]

Biceps and Taeznak been on point in the DK discord

[@Shadowlyger]

My cook for Unholy: You see Infliction of Sorrow? Make Unholy that. Festering Strike extends disease and triggers Plaguebringer, Scourge Strike consumes 2-3 seconds of VP, Apoc consumes 15 seconds of VP. All Wound talents are now attached to consuming VP. There.

[@Matos88]

I would love it if Unholy was more like it was in WOTLK. Based around it's dots.

[@MrAlbinoGhost]

this is a shockingly good idea. it keeps the flow of the spec the same while focusing the thematic on your diseases and also fixes the ramp issue at the same time

[@drkwrl]

Random tangent but as I understand this is kinda how arms warrior also used to work. Mortal strike to apply deep wounds, slam to consume a few seconds of it or make deep wounds do extra damage for a few seconds. Many arms warriors would prefer to have that play style back since slam feels like such garbage outside of that

[@jagosvujovic2086]

@@Matos88 unholy was a lot more about dots in mop/cata when you could snapshot them and extend them with festering strike, wotlk unholy was just absolute dogshit to play on the final patch when they nerfed scourge strike to the ground to the point where the optimal way to play unholy through wrath classic was to dual wield, cast DnD in single target and never cast scourge strike. Also a lot of your damage in wotlk came from just snapshotting a good gary, it was never about dots until cata

[@QPoily]

@@drkwrl I've only really played MoP arms warr but back then Slam didn't do anything fancy except it just did strong damage. The dynamic of the rotation was Slam costs a chunky amount of Rage but does chunky damage, Mortal Strike does a chunky amount of damage and GENERATES Rage, and Overpower cost a tiny amount of Rage and did solid damage. Each button felt good to press for their own individual reasons. Rage felt good to get a lot of because it meant being able to use a lot of Slams. I did level an arms warr in SL and in MoP remix and the main reason behind why I don't think it feels satisfying to press it because of how little damage it does but also because of the sound effect + animation. It feels like I'm hitting my enemy with a wooden sword when I press Slam and the fact its damage reflects that vision of what I think it feels like when I press Slam really doesn't help it. If they changed the sound effect + animation and flat buffed its damage by like 50%, it'd feel way more satisfying to press.

[@patrick2657]

Makes me want to play Frost DK again and it wasn't even on my radar for a main before watching the video

[@esb42]

Huge props to the Fronk edits. Really helpful for those of us not yet conversant on all the Hero Talents and such.

[@thethomasgjsmith]

This is a great discussion. Well prepared, focused and valuable. Thank you Max! Youre the best

[@d4mephisto]

DKs should get a tertiary stat aura. 3% leech / 3% avoidance / 3% speed. They just need to change the DK class talent "Blood Scent" (gives 3% leech currently) to an aura that grants 3% leech, 3% avoidance, and 3% speed.

[@doublem7709]

That would be awesome

[@archmagoshazrael]

Even having warcraft 3 unholy aura with some passive healing and speed in an aura, with an upgrade or choice node to have vamp aura. Then it's thematic and strictly better than it is now

[@booradley6832]

No.

[@doublem7709]

@@booradley6832 Why

[@3allz]

Fronk, you are the king of editors. Great to see talents that are being discussed highlighted in the video. Good job!

[@kidren50]

Rider of the Apocalypse represents what EVERY hero talent tree in the game shoudl've been. Basically a skin that plays around certain class fantasies and gives you some buffs and interesting interactions., That's it

[@loganboyd10]

Respect this take but after plying around with DB and Rider, I preferred having a new button

[@kidren50]

@@loganboyd10 I mean, yeah, I think most people will end up preferring having a new button when given the option. But that only increases on the ongoing problem of ability/button bloat the game has.

[@Onlytheclouds]

Looking forward to the mobility

[@insolent6702]

Atlas, Taeznak and Biceps? Holy shit

[@DJK827]

Dk been my main since it came out in WOTLK regardless of it being OP or not. Love it. And these guys I've been looking for to ask about certain things with it seeings how I took a big break from wow and came back in beginning of DF. I tried biceppumps but I could never fully understand him still helped though. Good vid and great content thanks guys!

[@Atramedos]

Strong Video overall, great Dk peeps and definitely staying DK main

[@septemberstarlight9362]

oh damn, it's bicepspump. love that mans guides. every one i use always seem to be from him.

[@mebrandonb]

I love when you do these! I don't play DK but I'll definitely be back for the chats about my classes. :)

[@Kabo0meh]

bicep was in my guild for 1 raid in nathria before someone screamed the gamerword 20 times, good times

[@Kabo0meh]

​@@yep330 yes

[@Homievegetable]

Now thats gaming

[@Direwoof]

Yeaaaa im a good player at wow but I prefer to play with crappier more casual people for this reason, a lot of people around my skill level on WoW are just REALLY odd lol. I once didn't invite a guy to my dungeon in SL and he whispered me "go back to africa mf slave noob" lmfao.

[@Damingo54]

Good times

[@rstocker19]

more of these. Anytime lord Pumps graces us with his presence is a good vid

[@happyhat8]

This is a great format!! I hope the other classes and roles get something similar with multiple perspectives, big PoddyC vibes which I love

[@chambermybeloved]

Imma need that rogue talk

[@yep330]

What's there to talk about?

[@VividVoid]

What’s a rogue

[@dwiksux5079]

Phronk is a beast, ty for the red circles!!! Nice editing 👌

[@Taeznak]

Banger video *totally unbiased take

[@lordmomentor]

"Are we doing S or no?" Atlas 2024 1:22:33

[@Dustal]

Hearing Atlas say Nighthold was peak frost DK hit the spot for me. That moment is without a doubt where breath build was at its best imo.

[@ryanweber7939]

Love when you do your community talks

[@reflexdogtraining1337]

Does Flarkness do this type of stuff? His enthusiasm for the Class seems a good fit. No need for "pvp v. pve" comments or "he's this or that*). Just love the idea of all encompassing DK chats.

[@justlikeyourfathersaid]

For those who care Frost and Unholy are S tier in toolkit for Solo RBG

[@Tyzen7]

The DK raid buff should just be Horn of Winter and make it give everyone a flat crit or haste buff

[@kunqq1477]

❤❤❤❤ GOD I LOVE THESE "ASK THE CLASS" Videos - Discussions.❤❤❤❤

[@SatchaDahmi]

Unholy is a clear standout and feeling great. Aesthetically it amazing and while the rotation is not super complex is follows the theme and rolling all you minions and still bringing in more magus is great. Even if it doesn't top charts I am just having a blast playing it so will continue doing so.

[@chaoshunting5659]

If they made omnifrost a viable thing Dk would feel awesome . Just combine both play styles and cut breaths cooldown .

[@klauskleinfaust4877]

The REAL Four Horsemen

[@klauskleinfaust4877]

Though I feel like Horseman Biceps would be BiS

[@maggic1989]

I'm going to play San'layn on my Unholy DK for dungeons and raids but riders for any other content lol. Raiders have class flavor oozing out of it and i love it

[@jako997]

Max please do more of this but for other classes. Id like to hear about Shaman from people like Wordup and Petko if you could get them on

[@paragongaming9666]

This got me so unbelievably hype

[@Karnicide]

I think to reduce the over bloating of buttons to press during pillar of frost is to make reapers mark override obliterate when you first cast it since they go hand in hand

[@redwingsallstar1351]

All you need to do is uncap AMZ and DK has something just as good as a raid buff without any bloat.

[@Bobxo]

Then you get Castle Nathria things where you stack like 4 DK's

[@beastlyshotzful]

@@Bobxoagreed, should never be uncapped again. It should however be increase a bit to maybe a slight bit higher than blood’s and that would be better than multiple classes raid buffs.

[@meatwad2468]

@@Bobxohave it put a de buff that won’t let you benefit from it again til it’s off cd

[@jeffrey3837]

yeah.... about the removal of wounds. wounds in my opinion is so much fun, there is also way more impact in my opinion than diseases.

[@Sourlife.]

The frosty pestilence club at its best. I enjoyed watching the video.

[@hidehide8766]

i love atlas takes ~ he´s like a mirror of me xD same takes same gripes i love it

[@aescendance]

are you also huge and rock a sexy ass mustache

[@justinpuckering290]

And so it begins.....hell yea!!

[@DoodleBobJ]

Loved their input, most everything they said was pretty much right on the mark. The only thing I kinda disagree with is the low rating for the unholy spec tree. It has just as many dead talents as frost AND it has actually a lot of diversity in how you can build the tree based on the dungeon and mob count you'll be going up against. IMO of course.

[@Weezull]

Please do more of these for the other classes too!

[@z0cat]

One of the reasons why I play DK is the DK community with people like in this vid.

[@dogemans3951]

Please I need more of these videos max

[@Leftside08]

This was dope I loved it max

[@justizia1235]

I agree every DK should have mass grip. If blood needs something extra special for it, have it apply a taunt for everything that gets mass gripped. Since the ability has always just moved stuff without taunting it, this seems like a reasonable fix that provides good utility for both DPS and tank DK. Also, the AMZ differential is atrocious and needs to be fixed. It is just such a terrible disparity. I remember when they made this change and we had to start planning AMZ as a raid cooldown based on when the BDK had it available rather than when any DK had it available.

[@filipadersson6732]

Can’t wait for the warrior talk

[@Blood_Ronin]

Agreed

[@coatsman5471]

TLDR will pre much be "fury's in a great spot, new tree gives prots a lot more options, arms warrior is good, but needs love."

[@Blood_Ronin]

@@coatsman5471 I'd argue the general tree is in a worse spot than before due to placement of armored to the teeth. Prot had very little changes overall. Plays exactly the same as DF with pretty much the same exact build. Arms colossus is fun, but imo fury just flows better.

[@coatsman5471]

@@Blood_Ronin yea you're right that the new tree makes some performance talents weird to path to, but utility wise it's fine. I meant prot's good in that sense where it can grab utility early instead of committing too deep into the tree for it. Overall the tree could do with some better reorganisation and arms is dying for something innovative. I've been an arms main since WoD and currently plays arms on cata, but I'm looking at moving to something else as I don't want to play fury at all if it means it'll just feel better for the xpac (or at least this season).

[@Blood_Ronin]

@@coatsman5471 I feel ya on that. I think warrior overall is in a good spot, but def could use some love in terms of the tree pathing ect. Arms without the hero talent Colossus feels bland. With, it feels better I think.

[@Ditronus.]

Buffing amz could be a good path. It was very strong at one point during castle nathria tier. Then they nerfed it hard.

[@bayazwow]

My problem is that Blizzard explicitly said they want to get Breath to an average of 30s duration, but they have massively missed the mark on that. You hit over 30s on a dummy with no lust/pi/windfury/AMS every single time. With all of those things in an actual raid, you are easily over a minute duration. And magically Breath has the exact same problems as it did in DF, albeit to a lesser degree.

[@QPoily]

43:54 this is exactly what is putting me off Unh DK and it's something that I've noticed be the case for many specs in general in modern WoW. Blizzard for whatever reason feels the need for nearly every spec to just be constantly resource capped to the point where at certain moments you ignore your resources and just press what does most damage. That feels SO bad and IMO is 100% indicative of extremely poor game design. Specs should never be overflowing on resources to the point where you can't spend them all and to the point where you just stop caring about them. It makes it feel like your resource doesn't matter anymore. WW Monk seems to have a similar issue. It seems like there are certain moments of extreme resource overload to the point where you're just stressing about needing to spend everything ASAP. That's not fun, at least to me. It's extremely stressful because it goes counter to the original dynamic of resource management. I really wish Blizzard would revisit these kind of issues and somehow fix them. For Unh DK for example they could EASILY increase the RP cost of Death Coil and buff its damage + proc rates to make up for the increase in cost. Also extend the Festering Wound stack cap. It feels like I'm always sitting on like 4/6 runes when playing Unh DK but I'm also always sitting on like 4-5 Festering Wound stacks. Then I'm also always sitting at 60-80 RP. It feels like I can never really let loose on anything because I'm always about to overcap on SOMETHING. Increasing the Festering Wound cap to like 10 would help the feeling of being overcapped on resources by letting the player press Festering Strike more often and therefore let you spend more of your runes during moments of increased rune generation. Idk, obviously all of this simply means Unh DK isn't for me. But Unh DK isn't unique with this problem. WW Monk also has it and I'm scared this is just what modern WoW is starting to really look at. Which sucks because I used to love playing Unh DK and love playing WW Monk (Legion). Now it feels like I'm being pushed out of the game because of how convoluted rotations are/have become. Even mage is starting to become increasingly convoluted and complex, even more so than it already is. I loved DF Arcane because of how simple it was yet had serious moments of skill expression through CD timing. Now it too is becoming a proc based spec where you have a bunch of spinning plates you need to worry about. Same with Fire. It already had issues with the spinning plates playstyle slightly, but in TWW it seems to be becoming worse.

[@hex6879]

DK should have a passive that lets a raid member have a ghost mode when they die with a limit kinda like wraith king in dota 2 or holy priest.

[@3allz]

Max 2024: "Im a breath enjoyer"

[@JustinTheDev]

Rider of the Apocalypse would be perfect if there was just 1 or 2 interactions at all from the horsemen. A proc, that does anything and wants you to respond, would make it "feel" a million times better IMO.

[@Fredsusername]

Give DKs the gavels effect. Yet make it affect the entire group. Think of it like a PI that affects everyone. Make it not a haste specific effect. Make it not stackable with lust? Yet make it last 20-30s. Make it a 5 minute cooldown.

[@Jacob-id7xm]

Give presence back like it was before, blood, frost and unholy which we can choose which raid buff

[@Rockforce80]

good shit fronk

[@Omaski]

Loved DK since its inception esp. unholy - but as a beginner, i was overwhelmed by unholy's rotation so I shelved it in MoP. I still Alt it tho

[@superplatinum]

death Knight's should bring a 3% crit chance buff and crit damage. also Unholy Aura should be nuked off the talent tree for Unholy, it's super gimmicky and bad for the 2 talent point cost it has.

[@Vikingeek]

Think this has tipped me, I'd narrowed my main choice for TWW down to two, Rider Unholy is going to be the winner!

[@myv112]

It is so easy to make a dk raid buff... vamp aura as he said, something that gives leech, or increase heal recived. Or, simply bring back old auras... Idk, but imo it is verry possible to do.

[@robertrivera5007]

I hate having to rely on someone else to buff me during specific times, please blizzard remove pi from the game.

[@TwinerJack]

yo, how about Breath of Sindragosa being 1-min CD? they can tune it around that, make it last like 25-35s. We should have time to breathe (rest, not BoS 😅), pool some resources and slam again next pack. That wouldn't sync with Icecap and 45s cd window, but actually i dont think thats bad tbh

[@DuckdaringZ]

Atlas the patrolman.

[@christianvalente3376]

Boomkin refugee here looking to try out DK this expac

[@FireSignd]

I like how in the very next build after this, RotA, Deathbringer, Frost and Unholy all got nerfed lmao

[@Sivedwar]

give unholy haunt in a scythe skill like frostscythe and change wounds into death gameplay *cough* Unholy death etc

[@hidehide8766]

o/ Also a very good Dk here ~ have the same gripes with it... preaching about many of those changes for years and like hundred of hours xD ... i dont get why we dont have a AOE playstyle that isnt designed for M+ ... it got added when M+ was released... in the same expansion... why dont we have mass grip ?... where is our group buff ? ... look at classes like monk .... you have 2/3 Group/Raidbuffs .... incap, aoe stun, execute oneshot, diffuse magic ... etc etc... then lookt at dk ?

[@Mboyd203]

I propose a dk buff “brittle bones” it was in cata but this one specifically makes dk apply a debuff to targets it hits that makes enemies take 1 or 2% more crit damage. Idk im just spit balling ideas

[@Frostingale]

If a class has 10% crit chance and you buff that damage by 2% that's literally nothing. To make crit damage do anything as a raid crit buff id say it'd need to be 8%-10%

[@becjed1701]

DK raid buff could be 5% magic DR for raid doesnt overlap with any other raid buffs unless im crazy

[@Desertsol1]

Very interesting video!

[@talisredstar1543]

So what i'm hearing at 11:46, is my same argument for Retribution paladin. Why bring a dps dk when tank does so much more? why bring a ret when holy and prot do more?

[@kazszydlo6931]

Atlas' mustache is wonderful. I'm hoping he goes even MORE MUSTACHE with it.

[@Ralleros]

Dk hyyyype! Lovely group chat!

[@JRSoper]

Choice node between Gripping Hands and Mass Grip? I could see that being decent

[@Ruessavel]

Give us an aoe Death's Advance so we can mitigate knockback mechanics on a group wide level. That might help our util.

[@misos2290]

Path of frost is a raid buff, what are we complaining about!

[@rstocker19]

best community

[@Byhythloh]

In regards to the talent tree changes. I honestly feel like for years people complained about the MOP talent tree's, saying "Every class feels the same, there's no choice". Then they introduced the new DF tree's, and people complained that choices made it so they couldn't take everything they wanted, now they have relaxed and opened them up more, and people still complain. WHAT DO YOU WANT WOW COMMUNITY!?! I feel like if a tree is in a place where your thinking "IF I had 1 more talent point this would be INSANE", it's in a great place. There should be sacrifices and limitations. DK tree's feel like they are in that place right now.

[@FireSignd]

It's because of the discrepancy in the trees across classes. Mages and Paladins can take everything they want, but then there's specs like Unholy where half the nodes are two pointers which severely limits its flexibility in terms of class points. Also, I highly doubt anyone playing at a high-ish level complained about MoP talents tbh. Atleast I don't know anyone outside of the usual nostalgic classic players that now play classic and still have no variety in their talent trees.

[@Verboseos]

Hell yeah, quick lil slurp

[@jaeshin6200]

Oblit is the rightful king.

[@Fredsusername]

Make breath Frost DKs earn a buff every time they accrue 100 RP Every time they accrue 100rp this buff occurs (stackable) and the 100 RP gets consumed To use breath- it’ll -upfront consume all your RP AND these buffs. Lasting 1s per 10 Rp. No RP gen while breath is up. Make it NOT have a CD. This functions relatively similar to today (maximizes RP gen + timing) yet makes it better to use and more flexible for all game modes.

[@Weddep44]

You da man fronk

[@Thikness]

Give DKs ret aura, they're taking pallys horses might as well take their scrap raid buff

[@xibbas7055]

For unholy make death rot affect all raid members boom fixed.

[@vaethe_w]

frost dk represent RAAAH

[@shafterbarkley7356]

Good job Fronk! Crispy stuff.

[@lohha3896]

Now do devastation and Aug 😉

[@TheKobool]

Necrotic blight back when ?

[@Leftside08]

Please get cheesy feral not the guy who does wow Head

[@kalasmournrex1470]

Seems to me the unholy 4 piece requires doomed bidding, which kind of fails the goal of s1 tier sets.

[@parlangua89]

goddamn i love atlas

[@speabs]

Atlas the stache is killer never remove it