Grafting Dwarf Interstem Apple Trees 1/3: What and why, advantages and disadvantages

What inter-stem trees are, some of the many advantages and the few disadvantages.
My Blog posts on Interstem trees: skillcult.com/blog/2010/07/20/...
GRAFTING VIDEO SERIES PLAYLIST: • Grafting Lessons Series
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An inexpensive, but quality grafting knife is the Victorinox Gardener: amzn.to/1Fut9Gg (affiliate link) If you have a Swiss army knife or similar pocket knife, you can use that for grafting and it should work fine. If you want a real grafting knife that is sharpened on one side only, I like this one a lot. It has a grippy handle, it's cheap and the bright color makes it hard to lose and easy to spot when you need it. It also has a thin and easy to sharpen blade. The only significant difference between this and the more expensive victorinox grafting knife is that the grafting knife has a flap lifter for budding, which isn't necessary unless you do a whole lot of budding, so don't waste your money. Having lost several grafting knives in the field, I highly recommend the neon yellow handle version.

[@ronshansby4438]

Over the years I have done a good amount of grafting on my 1/2 acre "homestead" with a high success rate. However, how much easier it would have been if I had been able to view Steven's videos. They are a wonderful, to-the-point how to on the art of grafting. Thank you, Steven!

[@SkillCult]

Thanks for the props Ron. I'm planning some more grafting and fruit tree related videos dealing with some stuff like this that is a little off the beaten track.

[@cscarnevale]

Wow! Fantastic video series! Thanks, Steven.

[@alwyzDTF]

Thank you for the knowledge and I appreciate what you do!

[@RajYadav-jv1nd]

Very nice information thanks

[@mannpatrick]

Thanks for putting this together. I know the theory, but it makes all the difference to actually see how the trees are performing.

[@SkillCult]

Right. I thought it was probably going to work for me from the reading I did, but I couldn't find this level of information and example, which is why I made the video. We have an unprecedented chance to build an instantly accessible bank of collective experience about these sorts of things now. I try to make good use of that fact, in both directions.

[@hobartfloyt6820]

Excellent video that is clear and concise. I am glad you covered interstems since information on them isn't that widely available. Thanks

[@SkillCult]

+Hobart Floyt thank you. exactly why I did them.

[@FixItYerself]

cool tree! 🍎 🌳

[@ddthakur5468]

Nice sir thankuu

[@SkillCult]

This is an interesting little summary of some interstem trials. They don't report that favorably on it. However, they say it takes two years to grow the more expensive tree, which is doesn't, and they don't address drought tolerance at all. Curiously, they say that interstems and dwarfs had similar amount of leaning, but it sounds like that was just in a hurricane. I think the reason they say two years is that they are using budding. If you graft only one bud of interstem material, yes, it would take two years, but that is not an issue for us doing our own grafting as long as we have the interstem material we need. www.extension.org/pages/60912/interstem-apple-trees?fb_action_ids=926580160706722&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_ref=.VSCA8fAPoBM.like&fb_source=feed_opengraph&action_object_map=%7B%22926580160706722%22%3A784491004970256%7D&action_type_map=%7B%22926580160706722%22%3A%22og.likes%22%7D&action_ref_map=%7B%22926580160706722%22%3A%22.VSCA8fAPoBM.like%22%7D#.VSE6VyjAI21

[@figandspade11]

Let's say you use a vigorous rootstock like an Antonovka and graft a dwarfing interstem like M9 onto it, do you think the difference in growth vigor may cause weakness at the grafting joint? Also, do you think the low productivity of a rootstock like Antonovka will affect the M9 interstem's productivity? I apologize if you already address this in the video, I must have missed it.

[@SkillCult]

I don't know anything about that. I wouldn't worry about it. If that was a problem, I think it would also be a problem to graft any vigorous variety onto a dwarfing stock too.I haven't noticed a huge difference in growth size at the graft on my interstem trees so far.

[@goodmusic3679]

Steven, I know this is an old video but wondering if I can ask about the anchorage of these M111/B9 interstems. You mentjon that no staking is required but some of your photos appear to show stakes. Also, do any scion varieties (to your knowledge) fail to thrive on the interstem?

[@SkillCult]

No permanent stakes, any tree might need early staking to train.

[@nwlady1844]

Do you do both interstem grafts on the same day or do you do the 1st one (ex.. m111 to B9)... plant it, wait a few weeks, then do the 2nd graft. (ex.. B9 to fuji scion)? thank you

[@SkillCult]

same time

[@nwlady1844]

@@SkillCult Thank you

[@rvk671]

Very Nice detailed info ! Have you tried ths on seedling rootstock instead of M111 as seedling have the healthiest root system

[@SkillCult]

I haven't used seedling stock very much. M111 has some advantages here, at least theoretically. Definitely bury the interstem an inch or two. They do tend to sucker a lot, which is annoying. Otherwise, mine seem to be doing well.

[@rvk671]

SkillCult Cant we use suckers as a cloning rootstock?

[@SkillCult]

Definitely. The only issue might be if they picked up virus from whatever is grafted onto them already. I use them though.

[@rvk671]

SkillCult Ok. Thanks

[@davidkehr4730]

Those are some good looking apples. Do you need to spray?

[@SkillCult]

I don't spray. I have increased problems with scab over time, some fire blight (blossom blight). moths are an issue, but not super bad, probably in part due to the chickens acting as clean up crew.

[@seandugan5664]

If you have a low vigor variety on M111, then framework the top, grafting a high vigor variety onto the low vigor scaffolds - does this act similar to an interstem in limiting vigor of the new scion, or does the new scion take on whatever growth characteristics it would normally have on M111? I suppose it would lack any of the early bearing benefits of the dwarf interstem. It's kind of a messy question, but I thought you might know from your frankentrees.

[@SkillCult]

that really is exactly what interstem dwarfing is, so It would likely choke down the growth some. factors might be how long the low vigor stem is and how vigorous or not it is. Not sure on the earlier bearing.

[@pamelanielsen7269]

Nice. Thanks !

[@michaeldavidson9939]

What spacing have you tried this at and what kind of per-tree yields are you getting? I live in the humid south and am thinking 14 ft by 14 foot spacing which will give me 196 trees for 14 rows or 210 trees for 15 rows and still give me excellent air flow to minimize fungal problems.

[@SkillCult]

+Michael Davidson I get away easily with 8 feet and few if any branches are touching, but that is with summer drought, so they aren't inclined to grow a lot. You can probably do a much closer in row spacing than 14 feet, but do leave more between rows that you can get in there and work. I would look at conventional systems and I'm sure you can find some numbers. I did when I was starting the project, but I can't remember much. Google it and see what you can find. I could get away with even less here with pruning, but under irrigated conditions, or just with summer rain and fertile soils, you might need more than I do. My conditions are pretty limiting to growth. As far as yields, there is no doubt they are capable of abundant yields. If all is well and you will more likely be thinning a lot to prevent breakage, small fruit and alternate bearing. The fruit tends to be of good quality and can also be quite large. it is easy to manage the small trees for adequate light penetration, so that helps with fruit quality.

[@michaeldavidson9939]

+SkillCult Thank you for responding. As far as yield numbers; are we talking a bushel per tree, 2 bushels, or what? I will be selling my fruit at the local farmers market and am trying to project some financial data.

[@SkillCult]

+Michael Davidson Oh, I couldn't say. I can just say that they will often produce more than they can carry and be forced into alternate bearing if they aren't thinned out enough. In general, small tree intensive systems are more productive than large tree systems, but that relies on close spacing. I think there must be some data you could find on that, but extrapolating it to your own situation might be dicey.

[@kirstenwhitworth8079]

Perhaps a dumb question, but is it possible to use the suckers from the M.111 as rootstocks? If one wanted to grow their own rootstocks, would it be better to grow out an M.111 and take cuttings to root? I'm asking because money is a scarce commodity for me.

[@SkillCult]

It is possible. They won't always root well, but you can try. You can also stool them, which means just planting, then once they are established, cut them off and cover the bases of the stems with something like sawdust, or just damp soil, then cut them off at the end of the season when they have roots on the lower parts of the stem. But, you should otherwise be trying to avoid suckers, especially in interstem trees. If you know which stocks you use, you can plant just a couple of each for stooling and you'll be producing a decent number of rooted cuttings within a couple of years. You might want to be wary of disease too. If you start with a clean stock and stool it, you know it's clean, but if you use suckers you can pick up virus from whatever scions are grafted to it. btw, thanks for your thoughts on organizing help on my homestead on another video. The substantial interesting comments are often the one that get shelved for lack of time to reply, ironically...

[@SkillCult]

I you can organize a large order to split between people, stocks are much cheaper at bundles of 50 and up. I usually order from willamette nurseries or copenhaven.

[@kirstenwhitworth8079]

How very cool - you are describing what I consider to be a coppice system for rootstocks and interstems. I like it. I like the idea of M.111 rootstocks, but I've only got 2-acres to play on. I don't think I'd need B.9 interstems because I'm in Zone 8 in NW WA. I do think that I'd go for G.16 or G.41 for scions with average to high vigor; for scions with low vigor, I'd go for a G.935 or G.890 interstem. So, here's the burning question: how do you minimize the sucking on the M.111 rootstock? I've been wrong before and I will be wrong again, but I don't buy the idea of rooting the interstem because my brain says that you are circumventing the M.111 rootstock and you might as well not interstem. It seems that if you simply cut the suckers, you are essentially coppicing the rootstock, right? Maybe I'm overthinking it, though. I have a tendency to do that. As for the organizing help idea. It was a long comment. I figured you'd have to mull it over for quite some time because, in some ways, it makes you vulnerable to open your home to strangers who may become friends as opposed to paid workers. Tanstafl.

[@SkillCult]

yeah, exactly like coppice, but with the bases hilled up for the growing season. It's super easy. There is hardly anything to know, just establish them for a couple of years if possible before starting. A good way to hill them is put bottomless 2 or 3 gallon pots over the stools and fill them with damp sawdust as the season progresses. Dirt is okay, but sawdust is easier to clean off and deal with. They say to plant it deeper. Your reasoning is partially why I ididn't and now I wish I did for sure. The suckering is pretty bad now and on almost all of them. I think the plant will still use and grow the M111 root system. I want to believe that anyway lol. I have not had much trouble with M111 suckering on it's own, but it should be planted up to the graft or you can get bur knots and they really suck. Part of my problem is that I'm not crazy about managing people and frequently just not up to it. It can be a hell of a lot of work. I've had a lot of people come and help over the years and sometimes it's more effort than it's worth. Other times not, like if it's a bunch of my friends who are mostly skilled. Other times though, I end up redoing all the work because it's not done right, or constantly have to micromanage to make sure stuff gets done well enough that I don't have to still do it later, or fix something. If I start making enough, I'll probably hire people that I can work with over a long period of time.

[@kirstenwhitworth8079]

OK, I'll trust you on burying the M.111 and letting the interstock root. Thanks! I understand about managing unskilled volunteer labor. No worries! It took several months to build a core team of skilled folks in the Permablitzes, and they became supervisors for the itinerant volunteers. It was just an idea; no ego involved in it on my part. Just out of curiosity, could you monetize these videos to make a few extra bucks? Or is it not worth the trouble? I don't make vids, so I don't know what's involved. Ignore me if I ask too many questions. It's a failing of mine: inexhaustible curiosity. Drove my teachers nuts.

[@bobbrawley2612]

Oh yeah. Hu-mm ,yes I heard about Bud 9 and other drawf root stocks in a video about high density trellis trees blowing over and the instructor lead me to believe it was he weak graft joints . He never mentioned the puny root development. The example of his blow over trellis trees didn't show cracked graft joints . So your explanation makes far more since using M111 as the rootstock and drawfing the tree with a bud nine inter stem

[@SkillCult]

Makes sense. Also, dwarf trees on all stocks have always been staked, so that theory might imply that all dwarf stock grafts are brittle, which seems unlikely.

[@bobbrawley2612]

@@SkillCult I just got in 5 bud nine a 5 Geneva 11 rootstock from Cummins nursey. Per your presentation I'm going to order 10 M111 . I would much rather have free standing trees than trellises supported espalier. Or espalier type trees.