Grappling in AD&D is *wild.*

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Ad&d grappling has since been patched but the first version was absolutely OP.

[@ornu01]

"How well thought out do you want this mechanic to be?" "No."

[@tmdiz4579]

AD&D moment

[@LordBrittish]

Rules writers: Any of you guys ever wrestled before? No, why?

[@tombirmingham7033]

Well.. 2nd ed was awessome

[@RunningWithRoses]

@@tombirmingham7033 yes, and it fixed a lot of mistakes, like this insane grapple system

[@IdiotinGlans]

Gary Gygax in a nutshell.

[@Koopaperson]

“I had accidentally created an apex predator” every DnD character ever

[@ellyjockey6164]

also any 5e paladin multiclassing into warlock

[@richmondvand147]

thats the newer editions (3rd and up really). AD&D basically is where you have multiple characters and go through them. Its very hard as you're not really the hero, you'll eventually be the hero. Also why I love Warhammer Fantasy

[@RunningWithRoses]

@@richmondvand147 man I really do love 2e and ad&ds set up. "Im level one! that means Im already a great fighter and everyone else is NPCs!" No, it means you have the combat experience of a town guard. it really opened the door for different kinds of character play, and didn't make players feel shoehorned into the "you're the hero of the story" role.

[@mestre12]

​@@ellyjockey6164i belive it is Hexblade

[@murlocsaver]

Undid my upvote so you'd remain at 699

[@gonzoengineering4894]

"Unfortunately game design was not invented until 1997." Attended a panel with some TSR writers at a con one time about the history of the game. This was a brick joke that one panelist would bring out whenever they got into the rules and it lives in my brain rent free.

[@mitchellslate1249]

I am not forgetting this one ever especially since I was born in 94 and did not start game design till I was 12:00 but actually we started playing games when I was five. That is technically after game design was invented. So I'm in the Golden age

[@andrewgreeb916]

Man guess I born too late to not use game design

[@nairocamilo]

How does the brick joke go? Setup, I mean

[@tadferd4340]

TSR?

[@gonzoengineering4894]

@@tadferd4340 D&D's original publisher. Acquired by WotC for cheap in '98 after a decade of absolutely LEGENDARY mismanagement.

[@AppleBiscuits]

"Where do you work out?" 10 AC wizards: "The library."

[@andersasblom6452]

Books can be quite heavy. ... In more ways than one.

[@Zegaexiron]

"Ok, I'm making a dumb sacrifice play!" The enemy is defeat and you survive. "I WHAT!?!?!"

[@FuelDropforthewin]

You have failed to die in accordance with your slayer oath!

[@ericsmith5919]

"Call an ambulance! Call an ambulance! *But not for me!"*

[@sechran]

"Ooh... why doesn't anything kill me!?" - Homer Simpson

[@morganfreeman-sheehy842]

If your dumb sacrifice play works it is no longer a "dumb sacrifice play", it is a "risky and heroic hail-mary maneuver"

[@Troll_main]

I JUST had this exact thing happen to me as a DM, where a player purposely provoked an opportunity attack because it was funny, then the enemy rolled a nat 1 to hit and killed itself (it was at 1 HP).

[@HairyHariyama]

"It was temporary but the cleric made it permanent" is such an underrated line.

[@tanall5959]

Remember, kids: "To make sure they're dead, step on the head."

[@faceoctopus4571]

Why? Is it a reference or something?

[@snage-thesnakemage]

@@faceoctopus4571 rewatch the vid, what type of damage does the grapple do?

[@faceoctopus4571]

@@snage-thesnakemage non-lethal. Is that all there is to it? I figured "It was temporary but the cleric made it permanent" was so straightforward that over- or under-rating wasn't much of a thing.

[@snage-thesnakemage]

@@faceoctopus4571 well it does "temporary damage" thats what the joke is refering too. making a joke of "his pain was temporary but the cleric made it permanent(by finishing him off)

[@landler656]

Sounds like you made Bruce Banner that turns into The Hulk Hogan.

[@ericeaton2386]

Criminally underrated comment 😂

[@arifhossain9751]

"Let me tell ya something, brother. Grappling is all in the technique. You gotta strip down to your undies, pour lube ALL OVER yourself and then do ALL of the steroids before goin in for the Cuddle-Shuffle"

[@euansmith3699]

@@arifhossain9751 Brother! 💪

[@Super_Ammo]

bump for great justice

[@chancefurlong2356]

yessssss

[@themann2782]

Potemkin Buster in the thumbnail pulled me in like a black hole.

[@ElDusteh]

BRO I CLICKED SO FAST.

[@LordDragox412]

*ARMOR CLADN'T MAGEEEEE!*

[@webbowser8834]

I didn't look at the thumbnail and got jump scared when Zee suddenly animated an HPB for me. I honestly couldn't be happier.

[@hexretro8112]

Potemkin Buster 1st edition spell with 5e rules components: high self esteem. Increase's your size by one value (e.g. medium to large). changes the grapple roll to (with a d20) have to succeed above your AC-10. (math needs to be changed, this belongs to the community now.)

[@temetrex9324]

It grabbed you didn't it?

[@shadowtim3]

You know, muscle wizard meme makes more sense now.

[@texan8580]

I was thinking this exact thing.

[@videogollumer]

@@texan8580 Ditto.

[@Raziel312]

Dumbbelldore and Harry Spotter.

[@jeremysmith7176]

Muscle magic courtesy of of mash

[@JohnPeacekeeper]

I CAST FIST!

[@Seanana_]

I swore the title said " Grappling with adhd is *wild*" and thought it was going to be an video talking about trying to animate with it.

[@LuckySketches]

You and me both fam.

[@johnarcane9915]

Oh thank god, I'm not the only one

[@RobotShield]

Yep

[@Zyrdalf]

I miss understood your comment and thought you meant the sport of grappling, when you have adhd. Which would be wild.

[@jhor8113]

On the other hand, having ADHD and grappling is really fun. It helps me clear my head, and my hyperfixations let me come up with all sorts of new setups for throws and submissions. Or sometimes I read the entire IJF rules manual because I want to know if that one technique is legal. The only downside is that I then forget about my also very important homework... Or tax returns, which I still need to do.

[@Daktangle]

You made Bane. You made Bane who works out at the library.

[@arifhossain9751]

Bane DOES work out in the library tho

[@josephperez2004]

He's actually pretty wellread in most versions too. Yeah, he's a relentless muscle juicin' lucador, but the man reads when is isn't keepongvthat body ripped.

[@darienb1127]

Or the Hulk. The Hulk isn't a brainless rage machine, he's just very emotional.

[@RaichuWizDom]

Just to point out: there's a reason Michelango refers to Bane as 'William Protein Shakespeare' in the crossover. It's absolutely deserved, given his speech mannerisms in that version. Mileage varies, though.

[@niRtywa_starcvnt]

@@darienb1127labware is so delicate that I would understand the rage of breaking stuff that easily.

[@Orrenn]

"My AC is terrible. Therefore I can't lose!"

[@HaloInverse]

"Nothing is stopping you from hitting me. That means nothing is stopping _me_ from hitting _you."_ "...That's not how that wor[thump]BLAAAAAAAARGH[crunch]"

[@Gashren]

Until you meet enemy archers outside your movement.

[@kristheheretic5103]

​@@Gashren still a wizard so range isn't an issue

[@Gashren]

@@kristheheretic5103 Yeah, but being pincushioned seriously impairs spellcasting. Bad for survival, too.

[@magicalgirl1296]

"We trained him wrong on purpose, as a joke"

[@Mocita]

Reminds me of Los Tiburon, The Shark of the Land, Masked Wrestler. The player put everything into grappling, and proceeded to grapple everything. *EVERYTHING*. Including, but not limited to, a bear. At the end of the campaign dragon shows up and stays in the water, popping up to use its breath weapon. Well, Los Tiburon charges the dragon, posing in the air, shouting about the "HONOR OF THE MASK", and tackles the dragon. After dealing unarmed damage, he takes a deep breath in preparation for the underwater struggle. Dragon goes up, where he forgot they could fly. DM gives option to let go, but player refuses to keep wrestling. 200 feet in the air, wrestling a dragon and dealing unarmed damage. After taking some damage from the dragon he gets an idea to "pin the dragon". Rolls a Nat 20 and they both proceed to fall to the earth, his final statement being "I AM LOS TIBURON! And I am...a lucha!!!" He kills the dragon, and through sheer luck or GM fiat, possibly both, survives with -4 HP. He gets healed by the cleric, who holds his hand in the air, another player bangs their shield twice, and the party Bard says, "And the winner is...Los Tiburon!" Amazing story.

[@alexreys7985]

He’s getting on the top rope… wait is he going for? PILE DRIVER. HES GOING FOR A PILE DRIVER. Edit seeing as this is getting so popular can anyone tell me what ost he used for this?

[@dryued6874]

"And that was a story of how I made it to level four."

[@GrandDadGaming]

A classic from /tg/

[@joshuawells7415]

I actually heard a first hand account of a very similar story to Tiburon when I was in college before the story blew up on the internet except he described it in less detail and specified that he "suplexed" the dragon in midair.

[@tridentgreen3346]

New rule of thumb, what doesn't kill you makes your grapple chance 100%

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

That was fucking sick dude. "Potempkin's Buster" should be a spell...

[@icevlad148]

there is one in 5e. Sort of. Bigby's Hand allows you to shove enemies in the direction of your choice up to 5 feet plus a number of feet equal to five times your spellcasting ability modifier. Which means you can throw enemies up to 30 feet in the air and have them land prone. The hand moves together with the target (victim) as it flies through the air, so you can definitely flavor it as doing a super suplex.

[@sirreginaldfishingtonxvii6149]

@@icevlad148 Wonderful, good point. I'm stealing it thank you

[@CrimsonCeltCherokee]

it is, its just not called Potempkin Buster, It's called Reverse Gravity.

[@mikelms20]

I would like to summon the guidance of a grand spirit -Who? LOS TIBURON, THE SHARK OF THE LAND

[@gmkgoat]

ROLL TO PIN

[@FaeQueenCory]

Why is the shark of the land's name "The Shark"?

[@Ranulfdatank]

@@FaeQueenCory Cos double shark is twice as good? * shrug *

[@Darlos9D]

@@FaeQueenCory Same reason we have The Los Angeles Angels.

[@manuelaparcedo417]

@@FaeQueenCory the awkward part is that Los is plural and Tiburon is singular.

[@Ahrpigi]

NGL psionic manipulation to fix low self esteem is something I'd sign the waiver for in a heartbeat.

[@arifhossain9751]

This is literally how actual therapy works tho.

[@Ahrpigi]

@@arifhossain9751 strictly speaking that's not incorrect!

[@DracoMagnius]

​@arifhossain9751 I disagree. From my experience therapy is you and a therapist talking about your problems and setting "realistic" goals when I see "psionic manipulation" That sounds more like hypnotism or mind magic brainwashing or something. Side Note: I would 100% pay someone to use magic to force me to have better self esteem.

[@arifhossain9751]

@@DracoMagnius Hypnotism... is still around and is still used though? it might not be real magic, but it IS manipulation.

[@tgres287]

Therapy is a fake industry that never actually helps anyone

[@legomaniac213]

Now I understand why horror at grappling rules was a running gag in "Darths and Droids."

[@josephperez2004]

It's honestly a running gag in lots of tabletop games. Depending how far they want to take the joke, it can be that they need an hour break and rules from five different books, to putting the session on hold because Dave is the only one in the county who understands the grapple rules and he's out of town on a job.

[@BardicGM]

Third edition had a literal flow-chart to explain how rules interactions worked with grappling.

[@fanusobscurus4309]

I think Grandline 3.5 had the best take. They made the fight between Luffy and Captain Kuro a pvp fight between Lufdy's player, an experienced munchkin, and their old DM, a DM munchkin. It's just 3 sold panels of wordbubbles of Lorem Ipsum, with the other players looking on in shock before the other Munchkin, Zoro, tells them they haven't even pulled out the advanced rules. Then Luffy realizes he has a trait that let's him headbutt and ignore literally everything they just discussed.

[@wadespencer3623]

Honestly even in D&D5E understanding grappling just as written took me a while. It took people completely outside the dev team to make me understand why you would ever grapple at all.

[@jacobfreeman5444]

​@@wadespencer3623because a MAN castes his magic with MUSCLES!!! Can you even say you lived until you have double clothelined a pack of kobolds and used the survivors as cushioning for for your own megaton impact?

[@zaramintheequanimous]

That Potemkin heavenly buster is magnificent

[@webbowser8834]

I never thought I would see this particular intersection of fandoms, but here we are. That Heavenly Potemkin Buster is glorious.

[@hakageryu-hz7jz]

Friendly reminder that Magical WIzard Buster doesn't even need to be an Anti-Air, he did it from a grounded command grab.

[@longbeing]

With full meter, you can roman cancel after a regular pot buster and combo into Heavenly Potemkin Buster.

[@hakageryu-hz7jz]

@@longbeing With full meter Magical Wizard Buster can be roman cancelled into itself for a TOD

[@prophetzarquon1922]

Ah yes, those are words

[@thosebloodybadgers8499]

​@@longbeing spending 100% tension for 5% more damage is optimal for psychic damage

[@aeonise]

Somewhere, a single tear of joy rolls down the Muscle Wizard's beaming face.

[@xamotii7988]

Wow. I’m not sure how I’m going to grapple with this information.

[@baconator_x4098]

I was going to hold onto this information until later.

[@kgniku503]

Cramming this information into my head is really painful - even if only temporarily.

[@HarryPotter-uv8yp]

You watched the video. *You KNOW how you’re going to grapple with this information.*

[@Groovebot3k]

If your AC is 10, rather well I imagine.

[@tylerbrinlee239]

Potemkin Grammacy was not something I expected but it was something I greatly enjoyed.

[@SlinkyTWF]

Over 40 years ago, my 1st level wizard did that after drinking an enlarge potion and went on to pummel a 10th level fighter to death. Took a while, but he was stunned the whole time.

[@nonya1366]

Magic Beats Warriors. ™

[@crestfallensunbro6001]

im just imagining the scene where hulk thrashes loki around XD

[@SolstaceWinters]

My mom had a character kind of like this back in the day. I'm not sure if it was 2e or very early 3e, but she was playing a Paladin character that she wasn't really fond of. She just wasn't feeling the character and kind of wanted her to die off so she could swap out characters. So she kept throwing her at every possible trap and monster, recklessly, hoping they'd kill her. Except because she was super tanky, and she was trying to do it without other players knowing, she couldn't die and everyone thought she was insanely heroic. NPCs and the other PCs thought she was reckless, sure, but "oh you're so incredibly brave diving past those crusher traps over that hidden pitfall filled with acid snakes to face the dragon alone before your party could catch up." That kind of thing. And my mom on the inside being like, "No you IDIOTS! My character isn't brave, she wants to meet the Reaper!" I think eventually, the DM (who I believe never let anyone let just... retire characters) realized what she was doing, and since they were all just a group of friends anyway, just let her retire the character because as funny as the gag was, she was long-since genuinely sick of the character.

[@mogim815]

sounds like you've got a cool mom

[@Crocogator]

How dare you remind me of system shock. "Okay, your friends have gathered the materials and made the ritual to bring you back to life!" *immediately dies again*

[@kylestanley7843]

I hear it made illusion spells hilariously lethal, at least in 2e.

[@Crocogator]

@@kylestanley7843 Yep! Literally scaring people to death

[@kylestanley7843]

@@Crocogator when I was younger I wanted to make an illusionist specifically to kill people via system shock, it seemed like such a brutal mechanic. Is it actually feasible?

[@Crocogator]

@@kylestanley7843 Feasible? No. System Shock has such a crazy low chance of causing a death, and very few things require a system shock roll. Hilarious? Yes. It'll generally only work on people who are close to dying of natural causes, or are under the effects of some really messed up fear, or just came back from the dead. Soooo. Evil gnome illusionist who wants to become a lich, so he goes to the old folks home to charge up his phylactery. Going room to room showing old people their greatest fear.

[@hugofontes5708]

​​@@kylestanley7843 does the spell actually change their bodies? The rules have been kinda hard to find but they only seem to mention magical transformations and aging (so polymorph, petrification, maybe curses and the haste spell). I'm not familiar with 2e illusions spells, so if any check one of these boxes, it is possible

[@PantherAssaultCannon]

And here I didn't think there would be any most busted Grappling rules in D&D than 3.5e. I also had a great time with the grapple rules in GURPS (can't recall the version) where I discovered that they're really not balanced around using telekinesis to grapple, thus removing the target's ability to countergrapple.

[@wumpusthehunted2628]

The difference was that in AD&D, rules were meant to be ignored. I don't think I ever saw a character grapple in the 80's. Nobody knew that grappling+daggers was how knights killed each other (or more likely seriously armoured soldiers unlikely to provide ransoms), so we stuck with weapons. Of course, my guess is that having an ogre or giant grapple the fighter would make the encounter go very bad (bring several fighters to AD&D quests) and making it easier to reach the DM's kill quota. But we died enough without that cheese.

[@muninrob]

@@wumpusthehunted2628 I ran a Monk / Priest who's entire schtick was an optimized grapple combined with self enhancements & touch spells. "First, while walking up, I say "Omae wa mou shindeiru" then I cast harm using my grapple check instead of an attack roll."

[@AGrumpyPanda]

Tangentially related, if you want to see busted grappling, look up how it works in Star Wars: Saga Edition. It's one of those funny d20 systems that popped up in the null space between 2.x and 4e/5e, with hallmarks from all three systems. All I'm going to say is, RAW, grappling completely prevents someone's ability to USE THE FORCE.

[@Khamoryn]

Down Down forward Forward Down Down forward Forward Slash

[@arifhossain9751]

cutting it REAL close with these weekly uploads. Almost ran out the clock with this one... im kidding, of course. Great job on creating a pseudo barbarian.

[@zeebashew]

Oh! I'll be uploading on different days, but trying to at least once between every Monday and Sunday.

[@ZesTofthelemon]

Don't think I didn't notice the Heavenly Potemkin Buster in the thumbnail. Okay so after actually watching the video I can still confirm the Magical Wizard Buster was the absolute last thing I expected.

[@wtfpantera]

Getting to see a "Magical Wizard Buster" animated was a delight, thank you for making that happen.

[@Froscav121]

My dad once had to grapple a were-rat. The story starts in a cramped corridor down a flight of stairs, my father at the bottom was fighting two wererats, alone. He was successful in killing one of them, however the second one was a tricky little fella and kept fainting, then attacking him. This would repeat until my dad, almost dead, looked up at his DM and said, "So what's the rules for grappling again?" The DM looks at him with the most "Your joking right?" face and said, "you're gonna grapple, a were-rat?" To which my dad replies "look man I'm dying here, what else am I supposed to do?" So Dm pulls up the rules, they do the rolls, and... it was a success. So my father holds the thing as another player finale runs down the stairs and successfully kills the wererat. That is how my dad grappled a wererat.

[@magoschonkers711]

Sick story

[@prophetzarquon1922]

This story was written by a half were-rat hybrid

[@seanfulldark]

I love that you can literally make all might in AD&D without any challenge whatsoever! Including coughing up blood every time you go beg your muscles!

[@magoschonkers711]

No no, there is a 40% chance you die when casting the spell and you need it in the first place. In ad&d spells had to be found through scrolls. There is quite a bit of challenge and risk

[@shahproductionsuser2965]

Bro became All Might, minus the flight

[@nonya1366]

Even got the death allergies down!

[@witchesbruise8792]

One of the greatest joys of AD&D 1e and 2e is that stuff like this is scattered everywhere throughout the books - just totally off the wall bonkers stuff can happen all the time. A lot of people might say that it's "Bad Design" or "Broken" or "unbalanced", but when unhinged stuff like this is everywhere in the book I think it's a Feature not a Bug. Don't forget that there are plenty of monsters with Save or Die effects, so it's kind of part of the game that when a player stumbles upon something amazing like this, you gotta let it ride! Who knows what totally other bonkers thing might come up next time and totally turn the tables on you!?

[@komi-sanmustbeprotected5665]

"My gawd! Gawd almighty that killed him! As gawd as my witness he is broken in half!"

[@Gnome_Tank]

"The glue sniffer have already breached our defenses"

[@gabrielrussell5531]

Armor class in 2E actually maps really neatly onto 5E. For every point below 10 in AD&D it's a point above 10 in 5E. So -1 THAC0 AC is 21 5E AC.

[@kori228]

noted for future use

[@shishsjxnsnzns]

Thaco isn't complicated, its only AC with 1 additional step. That additional step makes it objectively worse than AC, but there are certainly worse systems out there

[@hoomanben8455]

@@shishsjxnsnzns yeah THAC0 itself was a LARGE improvement over the mountains of to hit tables in the original D&D

[@RunningWithRoses]

@@shishsjxnsnzns its actually the same number of steps. 5e is Roll + modifiers = AC hit. thac0 is just Thac0 - roll = AC hit.

[@graveyardshift2100]

​@@hoomanben8455tbh I've been reading the OD&D stuff and I really like those tables. There's zero math involved and it makes your exact weapons, armor, and even race super important. As a DM this sounds really great because I don't have to make as many notes or worry about doing a bunch of math in the middle of combat. Just a quick roll from the player and a glance at the chart.

[@JAB-numbers-letters]

This is my new favorite video from Zee Bashew. The animated sequence on the Magical Wizard Buster literally made cheer.

[@JAB-numbers-letters]

2:24 : In case you needed a time stamp.

[@meltingatom]

The ghast skulking around just to be pile driven into cobble stone in the span of 2 seconds

[@AegisAuras]

That wizard has such an awesome character arc. Going from being horrified of battle to being so brave he’s willing die to enlarge just to body slam his opponents.

[@martinmcneal2778]

You have accidentally created the D&D equivalent to the Kaioken. Your character also straight up had an anime character power boost

[@roodleytoottoot772]

Holy hell that potemkin buster was so sick

[@Threeohtoo]

Just got into guilty gear as a Potemkin main this winter, this video is a blessing

[@JD-qq8fz]

1:10 that moment when you realize THAC0 never really left, it just used algebra to hide itself in a better system... it still takes a 10 to hit a 10AC, just more intuitively when bigger numbers are better

[@ericvicaria8648]

Having played through the end of 2 and start of 3 that was everyone's assessment. Some folks thought the switch was pointless. Other people were like "this is just easier now."

[@Gemini476]

Also, swapping from having a look-up table to just giving a straight-forward attack modifier was... appreciated.

[@stillsameguy2836]

Table isn't really needed if you just understand the system. THAC0 just stands for "To Hit Armor Class 0", it's just math past that. For example, I have a THAC0 of 12 and attack someone with an AC of -4. Their AC is 4 below 0 so I need a 16 to hit. ​@Gemini476

[@Kazemahou]

@@stillsameguy2836 You had me until you said that 'm' word. You know, 'm-th'. Hate that stuff. I can just barely tolerate the existence of numbers, I definitely don't want to do anything with them.

[@cobaltdeleon]

LOS TIBURON, THE SHARK OF THE LAND, MASKED WRESTLER's slightly nerdier cousin. Love it.

[@thejuggernautofspades9453]

"Watch out, watch out, watch out" " *HES COMMING FROM THE TOP ROPE* "

[@samgarvin2627]

Zee, your take for that "100%" is so perfect that I wish it existed somewhere cleaned and isolated. The things people could do with that would be glorious.

[@chaselowell4567]

As a guilty gear player that thumbnail only fills me with joy

[@militarykobold]

At first I thought the title of this video was "Grappling with ADHD is *wild*" and I was excited to hear a new perspective from a creator I really enjoy lmao The video is great still

[@buschacha]

I don’t know if this makes me want to play AD&D more, or less.

[@RunningWithRoses]

play 2e, its great, pretty much just a refined version of ad&d, and built to be backwards compatible too

[@joshantor]

No play 1e, 2e is missing all of the cool goodies like this system under the guise of "design" (taking out the cool subsystems overconfident nerds were too busy snarking at to ever learn)

[@RunningWithRoses]

@@joshantor 2e is completely backwards compatible with 1e, if you like any rule in 1e you can keep it.

[@joshantor]

@@RunningWithRoses nobody who has run a RAW 1e campaign says this. It *looks* backwards compatible bc it matches the house rules of most people (no weapon vs ac, level limits, 1:1 time, weaponless combat system, etc)

[@RunningWithRoses]

@@joshantor ...what? no dude, Zeb Cook literally said its designed to be backwards compat. practically every class handbook starts with a preamble of either how to mix 1e and 2e class rules, or how to choose which to use.

[@CNightmare072]

Everyone talking about the Potemkin Buster (as they should be because its absolutely hilarious), but I just wanted to say I really appreciated the /SLASH/ winscreen at 2:17 lol Didn't take Zee for a Guilty Gear enjoyer too

[@rookinasock]

Ah, THAC0, an old friend

[@DannyboyO1]

I once had a player go "I'm going to try for a blaze of glory, I... am not gelling with this character." I say okay. It's Savage Worlds. He's got an improvised flamethrower on, he's grappled by this (horribly depressed) tall gangly undead thing... and he sets off a grenade, point blank. He rolls 3d6 for... 4 damage. I say "Okay, but... that definitely is enough to set off what's left in the flamethrower tank. d12 for each shot left. 3. 3d12 and 3 damage. I had the baddie just... *sigh*. "You can't read the expression on his distorted face, but you just -know- that it's disappointment." It wasn't enough damage to give either one a headache, let alone an injury, even combined. If I had it to do all over again? I'd have skipped the damage rolls and just... let him blow up and take the arm of the creature. It felt right then to just let the dice dictate "comedy", though.

[@Eleven217]

"I'm a coward I- I-" *brain wash* " _I'M A FOOL_ _MAYBE I'M WORTHLESS_ _BUT THIS WORLD_ _CREATED MY FAITH_ _SO ALL I CAN DO IS STAY HOPEFUL_ _AND_ *_PRAAAAAAAAAY_* "

[@mitchellslate1249]

Accidentally discover broken AD&D mechanic... Gosh darn it! We will never hear the end of it from Larry! And now I have to triple check my own system...Thanks Zee!

[@adamshea5062]

Lets gooooo. Also Grapling and a flying monk character can be broken in 5e by dragging the grappled creature through Spike Growth, Prismatic Wall, Wall of Fire, or Incendiary Cloud. A flying pc can even pull off a suplex build with Barbarian/Monk

[@badideagenerator2315]

eagle totem barbarian with the athlete and fighting initiate (unarmed) feats is a hilarious build to run.

[@christopherg2347]

I would guess the _idea_ behind the ACx10 thing was that lighter armored characters were better at grappling? Seems about right for this day and age. In fact, it is possible they used THAC0 because stuff worked out like that. Webcomic Darths and Droids did some things on "overly complex grappling rules". Specifically Episode 233, Episode 343 and Episode 344.

[@alvaroignacioriquelmezamud7417]

I guess the idea was that the more protection between you and the enemy, the more you have to overcome to get your hands on them. Remember that in ADND Dexterity isn't a factor when calculating your AC so there is no case of "Oh, my character is very dexterous so now he's worse at grappling?" Now imagine you have an AC of 0, you're wearing full plate armor and carrying a shield, you probably aren't very great at grappling at that point, when you only have one hand free

[@magoschonkers711]

That's exactly what it was lol, also they didnt use THAC0 that's a 2e thing. 1e had attack matrices

[@timelesscatastropheanimati8976]

“OWARI-DA” -Potemkin (dont you think I missed the guilty gear reference in the thumbnail)

[@dathore]

Always wanted to do this on 5e, basically if you go with a goliath bear totem barbarian, find a ring of flight or some other way to gain a flight speed, you can rage, grapple the enemy and fly up your entire movement speed, and then some, then you just let it drop, since you're raging and a bear totem, you have resistance to all forms of damage, including fall damage, and your HP is higher than your stat sheet combined, so the enemy takes max fall damage, and you take half of that, leaving you bruised but with the BBEG turned into chunky salsa.

[@Starfloofle]

Bonus points if you somehow mix this with Thief for Second Story work's resistance to fall damage so you take a QUARTER of that...

[@personman446]

since fall damage is bludgeoning, you don't need to be a totem barbarian for this, because rage at base gives resistance to physical damage already

[@1stCallipostle]

Couldn't you just... Let go? Like maybe technically it doesn't say you can, but logically if I can drop an item for free, I should be able to stop grappling for free at will.

[@user-cf6ee2ud2y]

@@1stCallipostlethe thing about that, having used the build (monk 5 barbarian 3) the 20d6 doesn’t always kill it so it’s best to fall with it so you can do it again. Also monk is they way to go slow fall takes 25 damage off the top then rage resistance so you take half of that (usually between 60 and 80). Also the mobility buffs make double dashing pretty good, and giant barbarian double your CC so with a good str score you can haul two 300 lbs guys strait up

[@dathore]

@@1stCallipostle yeah but then it wouldn't be a real Potemkin buster :P

[@caoshedgehog]

Good to see some representation for the glue eater crowd that is the Potemkin player base. Good shit by the way!

[@AaronSeigo]

Edit|: nope, I was wrong ... grapple does have its own base roll, and it is indeed the inverse, taking the attacker's AC. LOL. Would be less of a deal if it weren't paired with size differences. And yeah, I suppose the dragon could grapple you with its size/weight advantage offsetting it's great AC. Bleh. Mea culpa! Page 72 of the 1e DMG: " The base score on percentile dice is opponent AC value times 10 to arrive at a percentage chance to hit" -Emphasis on "opponent." The worse -*-their-*- AC is, the better your chances. Which makes sense. What does make sense is your own AC making it better, all the way to negative AC meaning you can't grapple, pummel, or perform an overbearing attack on anyone. This makes no sense: the dragon can't grapple you? Hmmmmm.- 1e is wild for sure, but reading the DMG carefully is a must.

[@zeebashew]

Oh, I think you might be referring to Pummeling? - take a look at "Base chance to grapple" on the other side of the same page.

[@webbowser8834]

Ok on one hand that makes way more sense. On the other hand without that glorious misreading of the DMG, we would have never gotten this vid.

[@mme.veronica735]

Ah but this is AD&D, very different

[@zeebashew]

@@webbowser8834 OH yeah for sure it makes more sense, but I'm still pretty sure that's from another "To hit" chart. "Base Score to Grapple: Multiply **attacker’s** armor class by 10, ignoring magical devices (bracers, cloaks, rings, etc.), but adding 1 for each +1 of magical armor, to find a percentage chance from 100% to 0%. Note: The attacker cannot grapple if either or both hands are holding anything. The base chance to grapple is modified as follows:" I mean we've since just moved to ADND 2E's much more sensible grappling system.

[@AaronSeigo]

@@zeebashew Yep, you're right. The pummeling and grappling are inverted. Never noticed that before, need to take my own advice there ;)

[@derrinerrow4369]

What could have been better than a Magical Wizard Buster? A Wizard Buster ROMAN CANCELLED into a Magical Wizard Buster!

[@NoTime-ToExplain]

The most unbelievable part of this story to me is Grammacy had over 11,000 XP.

[@pkhitch1117]

I had no idea that muscle wizard could be achieved like that. That's hilarious.

[@magpie1466]

It's been a long time since I've laughed out loud, so hard, for so long, at a KZbin video- let alone a D&D one. Bravo!!! Holy shit. Aaaah man you have no idea how excited I am to see your notification pop up in my feed

[@mattkuhn6634]

2:28 may be the single best frame of animation I have ever seen. Well done Zee!

[@MadnessJackey]

the moment i saw the title i was literally "glued" to the video

[@beanofknowledge2125]

Wow, and I thought Grappling was confusing in current D&D

[@emileo5024]

I mean, it's not really complicated in 5e. You make a contested skill check and if you succeed the enemy can't move and you can drag them around at half speed. Escaping takes an action to repeat the skill check. That's all there is to a basic grapple.

[@kylestanley7843]

It's not confusing at all in 5e.

[@blunderbus2695]

It's not really confusing in 5e, it's just bad

[@legionofyuri]

Love the AD&D content. Hope you do more.

[@bskec2177]

1:12 Man, that chart take me back to the old days. Not the "good old days" mind you. Just old days.

[@_Diaghilev]

Yo, this kicks ass. I've loved watching your animations continue to improve!

[@AJB-jr6ll]

The Cleric made it permanent. Rofl 😂😂😂

[@bavettesAstartes]

Ok, this is one of the beauty of AD&D. Casting enlarge self can kill you, but then you can kill them by performing a grapple as a str 9 wizard All the things we take for granted in DnD are wildly thrown out the window when it is old rules time.

[@flanbeau]

My first rpg game ever was an old d&d boxed version. I wanted to do magic so I took a wizard. The DM said 'are you sure' and my character had 1 hp and 1 or 2 spells, one of them which was light. He died in the first room. What was thrown out of the windows were fun and the box. I discovered sane rules a few years later with CoC.

[@bavettesAstartes]

@@flanbeau old rpgs can be fun too. Wizard has always been my class, so whenever I play old dnd I multiclass into coward and diplomat until level 3 at least. Or you know, get a fighter friend. But man, the joy of that first fireball. Oh boy. And when I got my first 4th level spell! You really become a power then. And of course, when you reach double digits level the world bends to your will... you have to survive the early levels. Keyword survive.

[@flanbeau]

@@bavettesAstartes You describe a workaround around a problem that can be fixed and was fixed in every other rpg thereafter. Like someone said in a thread above "Unfortunately game design was not invented until 1997" for d&d. I have a good memory of this session, but I also saw the system was bad and if I immediatly liked the concept of RPGs, I never touched one of the old d&ds until 3e.

[@bavettesAstartes]

@@flanbeau problems are fun too. Don't get me wrong, you won't ever see me defend Thac0, but there is a reason why a buncha old school style rpgs have popped up in recent years.

[@CecilHoshino]

Okay but a meek spellcaster having a super hero mode and becoming a wrestling wizard is such a baller character concept.

[@tible_tabletop]

AD&D Content? I think I'm in love. Keep up the Old-School stuff, this is clean.

[@jonathanwells223]

"In an earnest attempt to delete my terrible wizard, I accidentally created an apex predator!" I wonder how many aberrations were created in this way, just dumb players trying to delete even dumber characters by having them Frankensteining themselves

[@davis0812]

Holy shit i almost choked on my snack at the Potemkin Buster. That was amazing

[@turtley8581]

One of my favorite videos you've made honestly

[@C0ldIron]

The fact that you drew him with a mask long before this only makes it better that he has become a wrestler.

[@FaeQueenCory]

Having first started with ADnD.... Everything in ADnD is off the walls of "Why. Why is it like this, Gygax??"

[@verylittleknowledge]

I’m a rules guy, so I love 3e but I miss the whimsy of 1&2. Gelatinous cube? Sure, why not?

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

As someone with a 13th level Necromancer in AD&D 2e I find this utterly hilarious. (My Necromancer has 10 str/con, 12 dex, 17 cha, 18 wis, and will have 19 int when he finishes reading a book. Why not generalist Wizard? I wanted to use stuff from The Complete Book of Necromancy and figured I'd be more likely to get approval from the dm to do so as a Necromancer. Hoping to be able to turn bones to steel to use them for undead!)

[@RunningWithRoses]

you monster. I guard the secrets of that book closely from my players. they must never know I allow necromancers.

[@Bobbywhite98]

2:28 And that'll be my next wallpaper, thank you very much

[@Watarara]

this is one of the best episodes you've ever released. amazingly informative, comedic, and well animated!

[@ButFirstHeLitItOnFire]

What kinds of multiclass builds would an aspiring Luchadore Wizard go for if they wanted their CQC to hurt as much as their spells?

[@nathanfivecoate5848]

Multiclassing wasn't really a thing back in AD&D, not in the same way it is in 5e

[@durianthesleepy]

There's lots of catches to answering the question. If you want effective advice the sad answer is the most impactful thing you can do to create a character for grappling is roll 18 Strength and Dexterity, and play a human: the heaviest and tallest race. I think grappling is best when it's an alternative option for classes that don't get boons to standard THAC0 combat. Poor armor leads to better offensive results, favoring classes like Thieves and Druids capped at AC7/8... but better armor and shields are good for the counter-grapple and defender adjustments, and while some interpretations of Enlarge will force your armor to fall off without you spending time stripping: you're in a very vulnerable position if that's allowed. In short, memebuild or not, I'd suggest Magic-User/Thief. Thieves get just enough armor and weapons to make regular fighting sensible in some cases. Magic helps a Thief do skullduggery. Sneaking around to launch a grapple to get multiple attacks could be helpful for a Thief, and Thieves backstab can do double to quintuple damage on an unaware or stunned enemy, and they get an extra bonus to hit such targets. Anyway here's what I got for each class -Thief or Assassin - Backstabbing, Leather armor is good for offensive grappling. Assassins benefits include poison use, disguising themselves as shorter or taller, I doubt a DM will let that factor into the calculation. Also Dexterity is a 1for1 bonus and if you have 18 or 19 it's added to the roll. -Cleric - Not a lot for this. Full armor/shield access is there and they can do a lot of buffs (Whether the +1 hit adjustments count for +1% or +5% is a bit of a discussion). But there aren't many that change size and weight. -Druid - Alternate spell list, Leather armor, sheild, magic AC, Animal Transformation as an alternate to enlarge. Also no one will look twice at you wearing a weird animal mask. -Fighter/Paladin - Possible 18/00 strength. Shield and all armor available. But I'd personally use the other unarmed combat table: Pummel instead. Max Strength for Grapple is +15 where it's +105 on the Pummel table. Base 18 is only +5 on both. -Ranger - 18/00, all weapons and armor, Rangers can surprise enemies and get extra surprise attack rounds, deal extra damage to the game's most common enemies, and rangers can actually learn Enlarge without multiclassing. -Monk - Never play a 1e monk. -Pure Magic-User - Any other class improves their hit points, thac0 and most of their saves: The Enlarge Spell can eventually give anyone 18/00 or 21 strength for the duration once it makes you 12 or 18 feet tall. For a human that can be 8 feet tall that's possible at level 4 and 8. Oh and @nathanfivecoate5848 is right about 1e Multiclassing being different. You basically pick more than one class at level 1 and divide your advancement between them. You start with most of their abilities and level them up equally. You don't level up once and pick a new class level to add. But Dual-Classing is an option available strictly to humans, that will allow you to advance only so far as a certain class then change classes. So you could, say be a Fighter 4/Thief 6/Magic-User 33 but that's insanely hard to qualify for, and you'd be playing whatever your secondary role is first.... I don't recommend it for this point.

[@durianthesleepy]

There's lots of catches to answering the question. If you want effective advice the sad answer is the most impactful thing you can do to create a character for grappling is roll 18 Strength and Dexterity, and play a human: the heaviest and tallest race. I think grappling is best when it's an alternative option for classes that don't get boons to standard THAC0 combat. Poor armor leads to better offensive results, favoring classes like Thieves and Druids capped at AC7/8... but better armor and shields are good for the counter-grapple and defender adjustments, and while some interpretations of Enlarge will force your armor to fall off without you spending time stripping: you're in a very vulnerable position if that's allowed. In short, memebuild or not, I'd suggest Magic-User/Thief. Thieves get just enough armor and weapons to make regular fighting sensible in some cases. Magic helps a Thief do skullduggery. Sneaking around to launch a grapple to get multiple attacks could be helpful for a Thief, and Thieves backstab can do double to quintuple damage on an unaware or stunned enemy, and they get an extra bonus to hit such targets. Anyway here's what I got for each class -Thief or Assassin - Backstabbing, Leather armor is good for offensive grappling. Assassins benefits include poison use, disguising themselves as shorter or taller, I doubt a DM will let that factor into the calculation. Also Dexterity is a 1for1 bonus and if you have 18 or 19 it's added to the roll. -Cleric - Not a lot for this. Full armor/shield access is there and they can do a lot of buffs. But there aren't many that change size and weight. -Druid - Alternate spell list, Leather armor, sheild, magic AC, Animal Transformation as an alternate to enlarge. Also no one will look twice at you wearing a weird animal mask. -Fighter/Paladin - Possible 18/00 strength. Shield and all armor available. But I'd personally use the other unarmed combat table: Pummel instead. Max Strength for Grapple is +15 where it's +105 on the Pummel table. Base 18 is only +5 on both. -Ranger - 18/00, all weapons and armor, Rangers can surprise enemies and get extra surprise attack rounds, deal extra damage to the game's most common enemies, and rangers can actually learn Enlarge without multiclassing. -Monk - Never play a 1e monk. -Pure Magic-User - Any other class improves their hit points, thac0 and most of their saves: The Enlarge Spell can eventually give anyone 18/00 or 21 strength for the duration once it makes you 12 or 18 feet tall. For a human that can be 7 feet tall that's possible at level 4 and 8. If you like arguing with your DM You could try to play a Druid/Magic-User, cast Enlarge then use your new size as the baseline for wildshape which is limited by your default weight to turn into a super tall and heavy animal. Oh and Magic-User/Thief is actually an allowed option by RAW, and nathanfivecoate5848 is right about that. But Dual-Classing is an option and you may want to be a level 2 Fighter then Dual class into Magic-User just to have a bese exceptional strength.

[@TheTSense]

Your AC starts at 10 and goes down as it improves, even into the negatives. Your grapple chance is your AC times 10. Excuse me?

[@hive_indicator318]

It makes sense, in a way. If you're wearing massive plate armor, you need help to move. Nevermind wrestling

[@0023Matthew]

@@hive_indicator318 But, if you're a dodgy assassin that can dodge a nuke 80% of the time you're useless at wrestling?

[@hive_indicator318]

@@0023Matthew that's why I said in a way. It falls apart pretty quickly

[@Kingdomkey123678]

@@hive_indicator318 No you don’t I’ve worn plate armor, fuck I wrestle in plate armor. (A sport called harness fencing). I’m not any slower than I normally am, and my gauntlets pop off at will to give me the dexterity I need at the right moment The only true draw backs of full plate armor are that it’s exhausting as hell to wear and your range of vision is severely limited.

[@wadespencer3623]

@@Kingdomkey123678 Yeah wrestling in plate armor is literally how armored people killed one another.

[@joe2marrow]

The fact Zee knows about the heavenly potemkin buster means theres a less than 0 percent chance he plays grapplers.

[@toasterstrooder8628]

There is a special kind of joy to discovering a weird combo of attributes that ends up working and lets you do something unbelievable.

[@clawgerber1992]

Has any system ever managed to make grappling not a complicated mess?

[@blueshoals]

4e

[@mme.veronica735]

To be fair it's not THAT complicated in 5e. You just need to target a creature no more than one size larger than you using an attack from the Attack action and make contested skill checks. You use Strength (atheltics) and the opponent chooses Strength (atheltics) or Dexterity (acrobatics). If you win the opponent is grappled until they weasel their way out on their turn as an action, otherwise nothing happens

[@Kingdomkey123678]

In 5e you just roll an opposed check and add your strength, as well as your proficiency bonus if you have the athletics skill High result wins, that’s all

[@HillbillyArchmage]

@@mme.veronica735 Yeah, 5e's system isn't terrible, aside from the errata on the Grappler feat. The main problem is that the relevant rules are scattered all over the PHB. Advice for novice grapplers: Note that the Shove attack can be used to knock targets prone, rather than just pushing them away. Likewise, note that the grappled condition sets speed to 0, and that having a speed of 0 means you can't stand up from prone until you break the grapple. A high-Strength melee character with Skill Expert (for Athletics) and two or more attacks per turn can get a *lot* done, as long as they leave a hand free to keep a single target on lockdown. (Many such characters also have ways of getting advantage on all those Strength-based checks.) Ground and pound.

AD&D was wild. I remember trying to set up a campaign a few years ago after my stepdad handed me his old books. Never again. I'm sticking to 5E and homebrew, thank you.

[@RunningWithRoses]

shame, 2e really is a much better system than either Ad&d or 5e

[@magoschonkers711]

@@RunningWithRoses you're so wrong its insane

[@RunningWithRoses]

@@magoschonkers711 offers everything 1e has through backwards compat plus tons of new content, the best settings in dnd, better experience and leveling, etc.

[@ethansouthwick6380]

So you're telling me your wizard went through the same thing that awoke Shaggy to his true power level? Amazing.

[@lunatickgeo]

When I saw the stats, I got a wave of nostalgia. We rolled 3d6 _in order of the stats_ and *IF* the DM was feeling generous for that campaign he would allow either one reroll or allow us to switch two stats around.

[@pedrostormrage]

1:17 "For some reason your percentage chance to land a grapple is your AC * 10" So a character with low defense (high numerical value of AC) would be better at grappling? Wow.

[@Mordecrox]

Read again, ARMOR class. Under most scenarios you're actually wearing armor. If you had something different then you got caveats, such as all AC bonuses due to dexterity being nullified by being pinned or grappled, or you have magic cloth armor that does not encumber, so you roll differently on different scenarios. But for most cases the A in AC stands for armor and armor is encumbrance, so makes some sense. Can't catch those hands if both are holding tower shields.

[@Joural0401]

Okay, so, as a big AD&D fan, let me run through the rules as described in this video, because there's a few minor problems #1- enlarge does not give a system shock roll. System shock is for trying to be revived, being aged, and being polymorphed. Enlarge does not count as a polymorph effect. If it did count as one, you would technically need to roll twice, as you also roll system shock when you are returned to normal from your polymorph. #2- While not brought up, I will assume in good faith the rules were used here- the touch of a Ghast paralyzes, and our friend the wizard is absolutely touching the ghast. 14 on a D20 isn't that insane(I'm assuming the wizard is level three, four at max, because I can't imagine anyone willingly giving up ANY wizard that made fifth, even a bad one), #3- Ghasts are undead, and undead things cannot be knocked out. As a result, the temporary damage should have had no effect. However, 1/4 of all damage dealt by grappling is normal damage- you will eventually kill it, it will just take a long time. Depending on how your DM chose to manage the ghast's paralysis, that might have been a very important factor, as 4x the rounds of grappling could mean 4x the rounds of dealing with paralysis checks. #4- Gramacy was also naked while all this was happening, which I can only assume adds to the horror of the fight for everyone else. Enlarge rips you out of the armour and clothing you're wearing. #5- what was showed on screen was an attack matrix, not THAC0. THAC0 is basically just BAB, and is from 2e AD&D. An attack matrix is frankly very simple- roll die, check result. It's also the origin of "20 always succeeds" because while that's not technically true in 1e- well, look at the chart. 20 usually spans 5-6 ACs before you need a 21. I am glad you're having fun with the system, though! Honestly the thing about grappling is that it's only effective if there's only one enemy, and only on specific enemies. It's a really good way of dealing with skeletons in cloaks, though! Personally, I would leave it as is, it doesn't really hurt the game- it's a cool but niche technique, and has serious downsides to consider.

[@magoschonkers711]

THANK YOU, you're the only sensical one in the comments

[@SavageGreywolf]

There's a guy whose job it was at TSR to compile Gary Gygax's "rough draft" into the AD&D 1st edition manual. He said he received a crate filled with loose notes unrelated to anything they were piled with, and no further instructions. There's a reason that book is nuts, and why Moldvay and Cook's Basic/Expert set has a wider following than 1st edition.

[@wormybobcat3706]

The last thing you'd expect, the wizard pile-drives you into mush.

[@abrittishpanfish6269]

when the wizard starts pulling out the King chain grabs you know things are wild

[@disky01]

Damn Zee, I just went looking for your recent videos an hour ago, and here's another, hot and ready for my hungry content brain. Thanks man, you're great.

[@Bboooo787]

Thank you for posting, I’m excited to see more from you!!!

[@lochlainnhealy548]

if you start Armor-Clad Faith around 0:34 seconds in it syncs up with the MAGICAL WIZARD BUSTA pretty nicely.