Grappling VS Fighting: Does BJJ Count as Combat?

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Do you consider yourself a fighter? Should BJJ be considered fighting? Many grapplers refer to what they practice as "Fighting". JT & Joey debate what defines a fighter and what classifies as a sport and what is actual fighting. Rule sets, weapons, MMA, Pancrase, Sambo- what is it that makes it a fight? As jiu-jitsu leans towards sport and less toward combat has it lost a vital part of what has mde it a great martial art? Break out the pop-corn the debate is about to get live!!!

[@House_of_Zodd]

Officer it wasn't a fight......... He was fighting. I was just grappling

[@Yoandrys23]

so if someone punch me or tried to punch me and I take them down and choke them. They were fighting me but I was grappling them? True story

[@Sage_6reen]

Definitely with Joey on this one. If boxing is a fight then so is bjj. We're just used to associating the term fighting with strikes but in reality once a boxer gets leg kicked suddenly he's in the same position as a guard player catching ground n pound. I think once you add rules and a ref it's no longer a fight, it's fight sport or combat sports and that's a very similar but different thing. This feels less about the actual argument and more about JTs pre established position about not wanting bjj players to call themselves fighters. Also this entire argument is inherently semantic and there's nothing wrong with that. Not sure why we're treating that as an issue.

[@monkpato]

Yes, Joey definitely had the best arguments in this one although I totally get the sentiment on the other side also.

[@jims512]

@Sage_6reen Bravo on your take. You nailed it. To add a little bit, boxing is obviously tough, but you could argue that the average boxing match offers the combatants more moments of rest and recovery during the action compared to, let’s say, the average wrestling match. Sure the wrestlers aren’t being punched in the face, but I think you are trading one difficult aspect for another.

[@kduffin33]

Fighting Definition: to contend in battle or physical combat. : to strive to overcome a person by physical force. I think this definition would put most combat sports underneath the umbrella term of “Fighting”. I would argue there are just different levels of purity with respect to the definition, based on how much the combat is limited by the rule set. For example MMA is really the most pure form of fighting/unarmed combat that we have. However I would argue that boxing and Jiu Jitsu still fall under the umbrella of that definition being that their goal is to physically dominate somebody in one on one unarmed combat albeit with a limited rule set. The reason why you would not put football or rugby in the same category is because even though they do have an extreme level of contact the goal is ultimately not to dominate their opponent physically through combat, it is to get a ball across a goal..same for other sports. There goal is ultimately not aligned with the true definition of fighting. However because it is somewhat of a blanket term it does get annoying when people say I had a fight which most people assume falls under that “top-tier” MMA category or no holds barred and in reality it’s a grappling match. This is why I think the old school gracie schools like Rener and Ryrons don’t get enough credit. In fact they’re definitely looked down upon in the sport world because they don’t have a lot of competitive athletes. But for my money if I was going to tell someone can you start a martial art that would at least allow them to survive a real fight a.k.a. no holds barred I would say that would be one of the best places to start especially in a jujitsu context. The initial training revolves around somebody willing punches at you and understanding how to keep distance until you’re ready to clinch take the opponent down all while being aware of punches. And for the record I’m a Gracie Barra guy lol

[@monkpato]

I've been in a few street fights, one of which ended after I landed a single strike to the guy's chin. That felt far less a fight than rolling with the Judo back belt/jiujitsu brown belt in my gym. :)

[@akronz4767]

You felt less of a fight because the fighter has control. If he chose to judo throw you then snap your arm, you'll know you've been in a fight. You'll never forget it 💯

[@MobiusCoin]

MMA is the closest thing we have to approximating true fighting. Jiu-jitsu is further away and the way competitive BJJ these days with its point system and the guard pulls, its resembling fighting less and less. I don't understand why BJJ practitioners are so up in arms about this. We do a weird pyjama grappling sport that has its roots in fighting, but it's not real fighting. It's fine, why is this such a contentious topic?

[@ermin101]

Love the pod but please fix the audio issues guys can’t listen to u guys with AirPods

[@monkpato]

Well, if we're talking about what you used to be able to do, you used to be able to strike in Jiujitsu. If boxing is fighting then Jiujitsu is fighting. One doesn't have strikes and one doesn't have grappling (apart from the clinch). You are perfectly justified in defining either as not fighting.

[@MoshJunkie426]

The amount of street fights ive seen that amounted to two dudes just rolling around on the ground is ridiculous

[@nestormendez1237]

Probably should look up the definition of " fighting"

[@Sage_6reen]

Nah cause then it'd be semantics lol

[@nestormendez1237]

@@Sage_6reen my point being the definition of fighting does not reference striking or punching. So many people say if there's to punches it's not a fight but a fight doesn't Necessarily require punches

[@sandsand5483]

​@@nestormendez1237 prescriptivism is cringe. Tho this is a common problem in language when we are referring to things like this that will only ever be an approximation of "the real thing". It's a question of "does the use of this sign erode meaning by blurring the boundaries between meaningful distinctions?"

[@JohnDoe-vj1um]

Fighting is not a binary standard. On the far end you have MMA which has the least restrictive ruleset (pride was closer to a pure fight than modern MMA rules), than you have Sambo, Muay Thai, kickboxing, boxing, judo, wrestling and bjj and you can rank them and order them/make a case for them differently. It becomes very subjective. Is grappling considered a lesser element of combat? You can have a whole new debate about weighting the different elements of combat.

[@NextScamdemic]

Sport jj is just a sport that has elements of true combat fighting. But I believe it's also true a jj -only practitioner COULD neutralize the weapons of a striker-kicker in a real fight scenario

[@tahulanyon3995]

Cool content fellas. Does a general fight even though he's basically fighting in his head?

[@af4396]

"BJJ isn't fighting, it's grappling" - Ok, and every striking art isn't fighting, it's just striking. What do you think happens in a confrontation with a wrestler and a boxer? Either the boxer knocks the wrestler out, or the wrestler double legs the boxer into another dimension. Again, a fight is a game. A BJJ practitioner getting punched from closed guard is just as much a fish out of water than a Muay Thai or Boxing practitioner getting taken down and twisted up. You can win a game of fighting with no strikes, or only strikes. HOW you fight has nothing to do with the definition of fighting. That's not semantics, it's just logic and your logic is incomplete. I can keep escalating your logic to disprove what you're trying to say. Striking isn't fighting, there is no grappling. MMA isn't fighting, there are no knives. MMA isn't fighting, they're wearing protective gear. MMA isn't fighting, it's one on one and there are rules. MMA isn't fighting, you can't improvise with objects in your environment. MMA isn't fighting, you can't sneak up on your opponent. MMA isn't fighting, because... No, what you really mean is, like Joey said, it's ALL fighting, and FIGHTING is not combat. Fighting is an organized game. If you're talking about COMBAT, there are no rules and there is absolutely no reason for you to fight, just to get out of danger or kill. Maybe use an AR-15, maybe use a bow and arrow, maybe push someone in front of a car or train. You don't have to throw a SINGLE strike to win a combat encounter. You might even be stupid to do that in many situations.

[@monkpato]

I cook but I'm not a chef.

[@ModernPracticalStonemason]

I play with myself but I’m also a wanker

[@gogomaximoff4554]

When Joey said, and I quote: “So, where do you draw a line?”, I literally said the same thing 1 second earlier. Just because there are some rules, that doesn’t mean it’s not a fight. Fighting is anything that involves physical combat, which includes strikes, kicks, takedowns, throws, body locks, strangleholds, etc. Cuz then, if the fight is defined by no rules, then two grannies fighting on the street cuz of some groceries is more of a fight than, say, mma or really anything else with some kind of a rule set.

[@perryBJJ]

I agree that most people who have experience doing both BJJ & MMA would not consider a BJJ match a "fight". It's a bit of a stretch to afford it that title.

[@Sage_6reen]

Almost every reason given for why bjj is not a fight could be applied to mma. You also can't punch in the balls, bite, etc. Before we even get to soccer kicks and certain elbows

[@af4396]

People that say fighting don't even know what they mean by fighting. Fighting is a game, MMA is a game. You would NOT EVER fight in a real threatening situation, you would END the fight as fast as possible. One is a game, one is getting a dominant position, scaring your opponent away, or going for a killshot. You're not "fighting". So people that think any sport with striking is more of a fight than BJJ... It's not, they're just different rules. Rolling is as silly a fight as willing to throw up your hands and play a risky game of exchanging strikes, instead of ending the fight by getting away, by getting in close, or by using a weapon to amplify damage immensely. And a striker is just as useless when he's pinned or trapped by a grappler. BJJ is fighting because it's game with rules, just like any other martial art. What people THINK they mean by fighting, is ending a fight, and you don't do that by fighting, because in those situations the fight doesn't even really happen. We fight for play, period. Killing, running away, hiding, scaring away, getting help... that's what you do for self-defense in real situations. BJJ with strikes is also fighting, with less rules. Any grappling, with any striking, and with fake knives is also fighting, but with less rules. Any martial art, with no protective equipment at all but no killshots is also fighting, but with less rules. No rules, period. That's not a fight, that's self-preservation at all costs. You might just hit a takedown and runaway, you might just runaway, you might grab a weapon to avoid a fight and end it as fast as possible. Oh yah, and soldiers in war aren't fighting either, they're just aiming at targets and setting up automatic defenses, dropping bombs etc. that's not a fight! Throw up your hands! - logical conclusion of morons that don't understand that all types of fighting are games we would not ever play in actual confrontations, where ANY martial art or sport could be used to your advantage, but not to "fight."

[@Jiu-JitsuJourney257]

I have a struggle snuggle next month. Would say a grappling tournament but now the world is topsy turvy

[@monkpato]

Excellent discussion fellas! But surely, we have to say that all of these disciplines are only sports that approximate fighting to a greater or lesser degree, or they are all forms of fighting. MMA is fighting because it has the fewest restrictions and boxing isn't because it has the most? That doesn't seem consistent.

[@AiMzMp]

Spot on^

[@Hewrin88]

If you can only do it once every few months, its probably a fight

[@wyldstallyn2016]

Great discussion here, really enjoyed this one. Most of the first stuff I learned was from a self defence standpoint, engagement beginning with an opponent punching, kicking, or trying to tackle (as all real fights) but then responding with jiu jistu. So my perspective may be different based on my slightly mixed experience. I am not a fighter. No recreational or fairweather practitioner should think they are. However if any ordinary person started a fight with me, I would respond with jiu jitsu. I would say grappling tournaments/matches are NOT fights but Jiu Jitsu is a combat discipline absolutely. Cheers!

[@TheYouTubeMechanic]

When I step in the dojo, it is combat brah. physical. spiritual. mental.

[@tribal8684]

I'm not sure why, but I'm getting a distortion when listening to your latest videos

[@Kwm-ur8qh]

The difference between say, boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ and the reason the former two are considered fights compared to bjj imo is the violence involved. The whole point of boxing and Muay Thai is inflict as much damage to your opponent as possible until they are unable to continue or they are knocked out. In grappling, BJJ before it gets to that level of violence (a submission) it is perfectly acceptable to tap and is encouraged. There is no tapping out in boxing/Muay Thai. Much more violent sports and a different level of toughness required to compete in those sports imo. BJJ is amazing though and is a combat sport but I agree that I wouldn’t really consider it a fight.

[@brewhaha515]

Bro I’ve never seen so many books written in one comment section before 👏🏻 That being said I refuse to read any of them.

[@johnbaptist7082]

Sport jj and judo are not fighting. But they can be used in a fight with very good results. In an MMA match I used my grappling skills against people with much better striking than me and I was able to get them to the ground and submit them without taking any serious damage.

[@dieselx999]

Half guard is one of the best positions in mma knee shield half Burns did it to Khamzat and lit him up on the ground for that short moment

[@OneNvrKnoz]

Same with their buddy Volkanovski. He’s used bottom half in his fights pretty effectively

[@lmk2869]

Yes to knee shield and transitioning from there, hard no to deep half and "playing" half gaurd.

[@troy242621]

I wouldn't call myself a fighter but you could do the same argument with boxing. You're not a fighter, you're a striker. Don't get it twisted, until you have to deal with guys trying to take you down and choke you, it's a sport.

[@gimlisrage5]

Although I appreciate that you are willing to spar with your arguments, I think there are other ways of dialog that would lead faster into more interesting nuances in the given topic. ✌️

[@jordanbeagle5779]

Some mma fights ended with 0 strikes thrown. Also boxing is not fighting because no grappling or leg kicks? I would define a fight as two people trying to dominate each other physically to either submission or KO.

[@u45.-]

Jj is definitely grappling but it should be a default position to end up on the ground.

[@LIMaTiXIL]

Brown belt in Gracie Jiu Jitsu here and for sure I can agree when your getting hit in the face you will forget how to do everything. Gotta train with strikes. Also Grappling is not fighting it’s grappling haha

[@PeterHeang]

Grappling isn’t fighting per se.. but the toughest fighters are usually grapplers 👀

[@anonaconn]

Fighting is just a physical altercation in which the goal is to overcome an opponent, ergo BJJ is fighting. If you went to watch MMA, are we saying that as soon as someone gets an arm bar, that bit of it isn't a fight? Like if I drop someone with a punch and get the in side control and slap an Americana on, was it only a fight when my fist connected with his jaw, and then ceased to be a fight while I sheared his shoulder off his torso? lol. In MMA BBJ is a component of the fight, in the same way boxing is a component of the fight. I totally get the argument that BBJ is grappling, and if all you know is grappling then you are going to get humbled on the streets when you get clocked, but to say BBJ isn't fighting is pretty ridiculous imo.

[@johnecker]

Fighting is a bout of actions intent on inflicting serious injury or death upon another person. Bjj in a gym doesn't seek to actually inflict long-term injury to anyone and certainly not death. Even street bjj usually doesn't seek to hurt or kill. Just to subdue. So it starts off as fight, then deescalites once the danger is gone.

[@JohnnyD5dub0]

If you have to debate if an interaction could be considered a fight or not, it was not a fight.

[@SantanaFPV]

I think the perception is due to how the match finishes in BJJ... and the perceived violence of the sport due to this. If you couldnt tap in BJJ, you sure would call it a fight. Is getting your arm snapped in half not violent enough to be called a fight?? Is getting put to sleep any less significant than being knocked out?? Is an MMA bout not a fight ends when it ends in a tap? Of course, training MMA is clearly much more violent than BJJ, thus its more respectable for someone to call them a 'fighter' in that sport over BJJ ... but when a BJJ competitor says they've had a fight, there not also demanding that same respect for saying that. - of course theres edge cases to the last point

[@CyranoVE]

Is it a fight if there is punching involved only? because there is no debate in boxing, a bout is a fight. Boxing has rules ( no takedowns, no kicks, etc) . I don't see any difference between bjj or combat sports. Restrictions does not make it not being a fight IMO.

[@reiniervanramshorst1031]

I find tennis is hardly like those real situations in which you might have to repeatedly whack a little yellow ball over a net

[@RugerMarkMobile]

Imho, the distinction is whether accumulating damage to your opponent is an explicit objective of the sport. Pure grappling and points-focused striking lack that factor, which I think is why they don't "feel" like fights to a lot of people.

[@kylep.4503]

The intention of competitive grappling is to damage your opponent. They just have an out in tapping. If there was no tapping in grappling the damage would be way more catastrophic than in striking.

[@RugerMarkMobile]

@@kylep.4503 The explicit objective of competitive grappling is to accumulate *control* such that your opponent ends up in a position where unavoidable, catastrophic damage is *threatened*. No grappling sport I'm aware of is routinely won by repeatedly injuring one's opponent over the course of a match as a means to that end, as is the case with full-contact striking. The argument could be made that grapplers can tank damage to facilitate an escape, but even in that case inflicting injury while an opponent escapes a sub represents a failure to control/win, and if that damage makes future subs easier that's a side-effect, not an explicit goal. Unless your name is Pat Shagholi.

[@Phiery]

We don't call call hs wrestlers fighters

[@MoshJunkie426]

Submission fighting??

[@Highcaloriegrappling]

A fight is when two or more people engage in physical contact, with the primary goal to injure or incapacitate their opponent....I still don't think jujitsu is a fight though, as I've fought, and competed in BJJ and they are different things, different experiences all together.

[@berrymccockiner3492]

couldn't fighting be more of an umbrella term?

[@akronz4767]

Bjj is as much of a fight as kickboxing. Same thing. In kickboxing you can’t grapple and you also cant follow them down after you drop them. Boxing is even more limited

[@Bruce_99]

just the read the title and thought. Duh.

[@zampano8217]

BJJ has as much to do with fighting as it does gay sex. Which is to say, a lot.

[@brycebrown6596]

Thumbnail: 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

[@ih4767]

Fix audio !!!!!!

[@wwj14]

welll....you gotta be able to engage at all ranges, and if you dont live in a parallel universe where there is only one style, CROSS TRAIN!!!! PRESSURE TEST.... duh!!!!

[@monkpato]

Maybe we should just divide it into more gay and less gay fighting. 😂

[@svdcleveland]

aww, Jiu Jitsu nerds wanna be fighters so bad.

[@sirpibble]

Nothing makes me cringe harder than people calling bjj matches "fights"

[@vanyakapetanovic4018]

Grapplers are not fighters??? Hahahhaha dumbest thing I heard this month. You are 100 percent wrong. Fighting is everything where 2 people are involved in physical combat. How is it this hard for you to grasp that that concept as someone who is bjj guy??. Striking doesn’t make you a fighter or more of a man. You can win a fight without strikes just grappling. Its still a fight. Some of the hardest dudes are grapplers. I was a kickboxer and still think BJJ is way more brutal. Its way more of an actual fight because there is no struggle in boxing you can disengage at will. So you are wrong 100 percent.

[@bulletproofforbjj]

I am a BJJ guy and I have trained and fought MMA. The level of violence in MMA is more intense then just grappling in isolation. No one is 100% wrong- its opinion. JT

[@astralislupus990]

I'd say that fighting is anything that has striking at full contact, regardless of rules. This comes from 20 years bjj and 10 in MMA.

[@OneNvrKnoz]

So are karate and taekwondo matches fights?

[@astralislupus990]

"Full contact". So if they are the harder styles where they are trying to KO each other - yes. Otherwise, no.