Greg Souders - Ecological Approach To Teaching Jiu Jitsu

[@CateBjjandKickboxing]

I am a 4th degree black belt, school owner and working on my masters in sport psych and motor behavior. I am not a fan of doing mindless activities that wont translate to live rolling or competition. So, static drilling on a non resisting partner gets little time in my classes. I have listened to Rob Gray, read his book, looked into the ecological approach and I am not sold on it. Just like trying to go from point A to point B in a car, there are multiple ways. If ive been there before, why would I not offer someone trying to get to point B some different strategies to get there? Everyone before us and including us as instructors have tried things that just didnt work. We have whittled down the non-sense for our students. So, I believe we should show them different techniques, but give them the philosophy and concepts of why they work and give them the freedom to try things that may work for them. Gamifying and adding constraints into drilling is great and I use it in every class. However, before that part of class, we have discussed possibilities from certain positions to give the student some ideas on how to win the game. Having someone try to figure it out and "organize" themselves with no experience, when I have spent 34 years trying different things, I feel is a waste of time and experience. Would you tell your toddler not to touch something hot or mess with an electrical socket or let them figure it out?

[@KazokuBJJ]

I feel the same way as you, but I kind of get it. Without experiencing a class. We won't know exactly what he is talking about. What I'm getting here is that you allow the students to feel like they discover the Jiujitsu for them selves. I still feel that you have to teach a person micro basics. He talks about it when he is speaking about grip fighting. He teaches them where to put their hands and how to hold them but leaves them to find the path there for them selves. You also let them feel the control and use the grip in a way that the student discovers for them selves. I believe that with this method, you can teach basics and directly get the person to start applying. Instead of teaching the basic within the structure of a perfect Is scenario. I found through my years of teaching that when you empower a student to find the answer through trial and error plus critical thinking. What they discover is never forgotten. I can tell them, but they never believe me. They only believe when they experience. Then they never forget.

[@Rekrapme]

@@KazokuBJJ kzbin.info/www/bejne/jGW0pYSKh9yqepI

[@nicholasnj3778]

Kano Jigoro took every single move one can think of and Canonized it into a system of moves, to organize leaning, now some guy wants to reinvent the wheel ... he'd be rolling over in his grave if he knew what was going on ... Rickson Gracie was talking about the need for a Curriculum in BJJ

[@nicholasnj3778]

@@KazokuBJJ never fotgotten, that would be teaching Principles that make a move or technique work ... not some silly reinventing the wheel approach ... maybe after one has leaned certain principles , say maybe Purple belt then I can see this being useful

[@shandyooo]

You’re missing that ecological teaching DOES correct incorrect technique. In fact, it probably does more course correcting that most other techniques

[@submissionsummit]

I love the implicit way of learning as anyone can teach technique, but few can teach the deeper principles & concepts often left to the student to figure out. There’s also variables that make explicit learning difficult bc of size differences, mobility, the students’ comprehension, & the uke’s reaction(s). Every technique is not a solid copy & paste. “Self discovery is the best way to retain knowledge.” - John Danaher

[@Breeze954]

This is incredible. Greg is bringing the Hegelian dialectic and eastern philosophy back to jiu-jitsu! For a long time we've been reading the dictionary to learn to speak; Greg is encouraging we learn to speak the way a baby does, by trying to form words from scratch.

[@Rafael-mo5cs]

That was a great interview. I'm a brazilian jiu jitsu black belt (and having english as a second language) that ended up finding this content by accident and I found it very interesting, mostly because I feel like I've been learning Jiu Jitsu again, after all those years. After 13 years learning specific positions, I started understanding the mechanics behind and diferent ways to train that really changed my perspective on a lot of things I learned and I still see being taught that I no longer believe in. I've never heard of Standard Jiu Jitsu guys until recently (IBJJF Pans, I guess) and was really impressed by then. But, when you said they came to learn with you after being black belts, it reinforced the idea that I had while listening that this approach will probably work only for someone who has learned the traditional way before. I believe it's very hard to come up with an idea that you've never heard before. For example: If you've never seen the blue color, you will never understand what it is. In Jiu Jitsu, I believe in showing the techniques and, after that first experience, then start breaking it down and understanding better the mechanics involved. Unfortunately, we don't have this kind of content in portuguese and it feels like grappling in Brazil is getting left behind. Keep up the good work.

[@jreis_]

Me alegra ver outro brasileiro aqui... também sinto que estamos ficando para trás em comparação com as especializações e inovações que vem surgindo no exterior. Acho que uma ressurreição do nosso jiu jitsu terá de ser acompanhada de um abandono dos dogmas e tradiçōes que carregamos atualmente. Esse modo "ecológico" de treinamento é interessante, mas não sei o quão eficiente seria para atletas de elite. Enfim, cabe a nós evoluirmos nosso jiu-jitsu!

[@Rafael-mo5cs]

@@jreis_ Boa! Concordo com voce. O problema é que o argumento da autoridade ainda é muito usado aqui no Brasil e dificilmente veremos uma mudança em breve. No Brasil, um tecnico como esse entrevistado dificilmente seria ouvido, já que ele nunca ganhou nada. Aqui parece que só se ouve aqueles que ja tem uma historia no esporte, mesmo não tendo uma boa didática ou sendo um bom professor. É complicado. No futebol, por exemplo, podemos assistir um jogo e criticar uma performance de um atleta (por mais que não sejamos melhor que eles) e tudo bem, todos acham normal. No Jiu Jitsu devemos estar sempre pisando em ovos na hora de fazer algum comentário, ja que as pessoas se ofendem facilmente. A maioria das academias, por exemplo, tem aquele aquecimento obsoleto que não acrescenta em nada no treino, só cansa o aluno. Acho que esses jogos que o entrevistado faz excelentes para aquecimento e o ideal imagino que seja uma aula que misture esse conceito com o tradicional. Esse modelo ecologico funcionaria bem no Brasil para quem ja tem um base, mas, para começar do zero, seria dificil fazer as pessoas acreditarem no projeto.

[@joshuahaley4367]

Some of what he’s saying reminds me a lot of what the dog training world calls free shaping. If I want my dog to jump up on a box I present the box to him and when he engages it I reward, he puts a paw on it, I reward and then sooner or later he gets on top of the box and achieves the desired behavior

[@doitbeforeyouareready6864]

I've never heard this instructional method explained so explicitly. But, this how I run my kids class, because I find that the kids respond much better to situational games/goals than they do to specific technical instruction.

[@zapkif]

Thanks for this interview! Best one I've heard with Greg. This one was the most clarifying! Thanks so much!!

[@blim2020]

Sonny, this was awesome, man. Questioning certain things, diving deeper, and keeping everything relevant. Great host.

[@patrickmcinerney9491]

Great interview. Your healthy skepticism, combined with taking the best possible interpretation of your interviewee's stances, led to some really good discussion. Subscribed!

[@ssssaintmarcus]

I think I agree with your approach entirely Greg. For new people especially learning concepts and principles instead of positions and moves seems to be far more beneficial than the traditional teaching style which I am accustomed too. As a higher belt who is kind of self taught with concepts my game has gotten far far sharper becoming hyper aware of these things and existing in a subconscious space while rolling, which I believe you refer to as implicit rolling? As a higher belt now I can see a move or technique and break it down myself understanding how it works and am apply to see the concepts/principles/ the why within it. I really enjoyed this conversation and thank you. I’ll probably swing in soon as I’m only about 20 minutes from you.

[@TallahasseeJiuJitsu]

Great podcast! Thank you

[@jiujudo1307]

Thanks for posting!

[@senseifreddy]

Great information and ideas, however simple words help you express your message clearly. Too many complex words are like hurdles in a race, barriers to understanding which slows students down. Replacing complex words with simpler words whenever possible lets your practitioners concentrate on your ideas and information, and concepts.

[@alekseiaminev4751]

So well spoken wow

[@samuelemeryjiujitsu]

As soon as i heard he came from Lloyd Irving it all made sense.

[@SuperBlake89]

Sonny, Love that you're sharing these guys who promote a different and better way of learning BJJ bro. Have you ever had Kit Dale on the show? He's a high level Aussie grappler that has been promoting this style of training/learning for a long time before it became more popular in that current era. If you haven't, it would be great to hear you guys chat about his approach to learning BJJ and how that looks in a typical training session.

[@BjorsN]

Would love this aswell, first heard about concepts+principles>technique from Kit on youtube and would love to hear him talk about it.

[@tommythompson3189]

Awesome!

[@AaronMartinProfessional]

Phenomenal episode.

[@aaronmartinez9102]

Zero drilling all privates + wrestling… seen tremendous advancement

[@jeranmiller]

I came to jiu-jitsu after obtaining a master’s degree in foreign language instruction. These sort of exotic teaching approaches come and go from time to time in that field, and they often feature a refusal to explicitly teach things like vocabulary or grammar. In practice, these tend to be more engaging for students, but inefficient. At a certain point, everyone saves time and effort with an explicit explanation of how things should be. I’m highly skeptical that this approach is exactly as great as Coach Souders would have us believe, and it does sound as if his students are seeking out explicit technical instruction outside of class to meet their need for it. It would be great to have those doubts proven wrong, though, and I’m glad people out there are experimenting with how to teach the art.

[@antufcti]

Language is fundamental to this approach of learning, you don't understand it enough look at his other interviews they're more in depth

[@ex0ja]

So many comments here are just saying they dont inuitively feel like iys correct, that doesnt matter. A lot of this stuff has scientific studies to prove it works, that's a lot more meaningful than your gut feeling.

[@BroCode465]

It almost sounds like position before submission.

[@Whiskydanger]

Simplistic but accurate. Now quantify that.

[@jameswhelan1066]

Someone with really good AV skills just joined my gym. What if f I use chatgpt to reword all of Johns lectures and teach them backwards...

[@arshakh1]

Ok, so, why do I need to have a black belt, or any other color belt to teach grappling? We can design CLA games and just play them.

[@Whiskydanger]

Are you a black belt in competition? Are you a black belt at teaching? Are you a black belt at life? Who cares about the color of your belt if you can teach and compete at an appropriate competency? Belts are an archaic visualization of what your skill level is. But now more than ever, its obviously meaningless and generally a form of gatekeeping. Why is Michael pixley not a black belt? Why is some random schmuck off the street who spent 16 years learning bjj a blackbelt but couldnt beat a generally competent purple belt competitive grappler?

[@CMLew]

I think what I would disagree with somewhat with Greg’s stance on this is that if we go back to the cake thing. If you teach someone how flour and binding agents and sugar work together but they have never had a cake they might struggle to get bake the cake. If you don’t give them any recipes or upper and lower limits / guidelines they might end up making a bunch of inedible cakes before they make something edible. While I think teaching concepts is more important than techniques and teaching how food interacts is better than teaching recipes. Recopies and techniques can be very good examples to teach and understand concepts. Also if you as the instructor have already made a bunch of cakes that are impossible to eat why not help the student not make the same mistakes and cut some of that time. I think giving a structure, explaining why it works then letting students riff off it might create quicker outcomes than just telling them to get form Point a to point b.

[@nerdSlayerstudioss]

Exactly, because this guy is essentially saying "lets ignore what advanced martial arts so greatly the past 200 years". Which doesn't make any sense to me. Stripping it all away is pointless imo and undoing so much great work.

[@baloo1522]

Am i crazy or is your accent South African?

[@nicholasnj3778]

Kano Jigoro took every single move one can think of and Canonized it into a system of moves, to organize leaning, now some guy wants to reinvent the wheel ... he'd be rolling over in his grave if he knew what was going on ... Rickson Gracie was talking about the need for a Curriculum in BJJ ... and yes I listened to the whole video

[@carreromartialarts]

Beginners need simple concepts and they need step 1, step 2, etc.. they need soecific instructions. I can see this approach working with higher belts though