Here's Why You Don't Like the Replacement Avengers

[@gregowen2022]

I have heard your reasoning and my opinion of Clint and Kate has been elevated somewhat. My yearly L's video has the correction: kzbin.info/www/bejne/gWLUlmOVfryGpac

[@Sujad]

I've always considered giving white hero identities to minorities to be akin to sloppy seconds. We have our hero identities and passing the mantle like the MCU did just made me feel like minority hero identities are inherently inferior and minority heroes can never be good enough unless we're inhabiting white hero identities. That it's perceived as "better" for us to get them is absolutely insulting.

[@argentaegis]

Sam was a pararescueman. The guy jumped out of airplanes to give medical treatment to injured people in dangerous places. There's an entire world of opportunity in that skillset when combined with the mantle of Captain America. You could have an entire super hero danger + medical thing. You could do a whole (timely) struggle with the dichotomy between being a total butt kicker and a total life saver at the same time. But nah...we get preachy punchy.

[@darkhighwayman1757]

he never got the super soldier serum did he in the show?

[@argentaegis]

@@darkhighwayman1757 DIdn't watch the show, but I don't think he needs it to be interesting. Steve was a lot of things, but I wouldn't have bet on him having the mindset to graduate medical school. Sam could have been this cool and different kind of thing and we could have still gotten patriotic hero moving toward the danger to rescue people.

[@mallorycarpinski1160]

He did not get the super soldier serum in the show. They did bring back his background in counseling though which I thought was a great move for making him more than just a "mantle" but then they dropped the ball by the end of the show. Maybe they'll go back to it in the film.

[@argentaegis]

@@DonaldDonald-gv7ys I don't think it matters that he didn't have powers. Give a guy a jetpack and an invulnerable shield and I think you've got enough comic book in there to make the action doable. You probably can't tell all of the same sorts of stories, but that's a feature for me, not a bug. Sam always struck me as a good person to take up that mantle but I never wanted Steve Part 2.

[@iceprism367]

Ya know what? I didn't even remember that about his character until I read this comment. I watched about half of the show that was supposed to be about him and you have just given me more info on his character than half of his show did. 😭

[@bigbear7076]

What sucks is that Falcon was a great character on his own in the MCU. Sam Wilson had an interesting background that could have been explored (how did he get selected to to use the wings and what were his modern war experiences like? Did he have a prior love or a close friend he lost? Etc.

[@clancydowrca]

Yep all wasted for the sake of woke! F Disney

[@ballerinaonamusicbox]

@@clancydowrcait happens in the comics lol.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

​​@@ballerinaonamusicboxIt sucked there too. Steve Rogers is Captain America. Someone else can carry the shield for awhile but they never actually _become_ Captain America. I wonder how the hell they can do _Daredevil: Born Again_ without Steve Rogers. He's absolutely crucial to that story, especially the way tne Avengers appear ar the end. "Out of nowhere they appear. A soldier with a voice that could command a God. And does. Cap: "Medic over here, man! Then's ones be shot! Put those fires out we don't want to the gas mains going up!" Thor is shown raising his hammer "Suddenly it's raining so hard it hurts and everyone falls silent. Except Matt."

[@christophertaylor9100]

I would have definitely watched a Falcon movie. I have no interest in a fake Captain America movie.

[@Sujad]

This. Absolutely this. It always baffles me when they give white hero identities to minorities. Why do we need their sloppy seconds? Why can't minority hero identities be good enough?

[@613harbinger316]

That moment in Avengers 2 when Clint says, "Okay, look. The city is flying, we’re fighting an army of robots and I have a bow and arrow. None of this makes sense. But I'm going back out there because it's my job. Okay?" kind of shot him up near the top of my list of favorite Avengers characters. Also, I love archery. But that didn't contribute anything. Honest.

[@devonjoseph5467]

Natasha and Clint are supposed to be the heart/ human element in a theater group of literally gods, supermen, and mad scientists. Marvel should have explore more of the gritty Clint left over from his time as Ronin while also touching on his insecurity from the comics. How he has to make every shot, because what good is a dude that misses. But nope.

[@dustycoward7615]

Yep there is something to be said about characters with no powers but are determined to do their job to the best of their ability in order to save lives

[@jaysw9585]

That line came directly from the Fraction run in the comic. Insanely good comic the TV show is based on.

[@nickshelton8561]

Hawkeye is basically batman without the money and detective skills. Hawkeye is easily the most underrated character in marvel.

[@hahaharvey3068]

I also thought the part right after where he thinks about shooting quick silver was the funniest part of the movie and made him one of my favorites they really should have done a spy winter soldier type movie with him and Natasha years ago before they were retired or dead.

[@bryantwalley]

I liked the Clint / Kate storyline. She looked up to him and respected him. We don’t see that often in these stories lately. They actually made a decent team up. The way they made her a student of the character was great.

[@achimdemus-holzhaeuser1233]

I also thought he earned the "to old for this shit" attitude. Then they ruined it in the last episode.

[@alpd7638]

Hawkeye was the best disney+ show, but agree that the last episode messed it up with typical phase 4 stupidity

[@reagan1197]

Agreed, she should be the leader of the young avengers

[@nischesharma]

They fucked kingpin man!!!!

[@andrewj1754]

Out of all the new Avenger replacement type characters, I liked Kate the most too.

[@guygadbois3010]

It's the part where they call fans racist/sexist if they don't accept a mantle transfer - because Disney can't accept blame for their own failures - that is most damaging. And I don't like what they did in the Black Widow movie, where they made 'Black Widow' a job title instead of a name.

[@nont18411]

They also made “Thor” a mantle, instead of Thor being the name of a guy Thor Odinson.

[@parycartoons6840]

"We don't want to know what the WHITE MEN think! They're all racist misogynist! This was made for woman and minorities!," Ok... Well I'm both and I hate all of it cause you're making it very clear that you think the only way to portray woman and minorities as competent and likable is to tear men down and make them pathetic. I feel condescended. I really do.

[@Mike_Dubo]

​@@nont18411But wasn't that already a thing in the comics? Like, one dude in the 90'sbecame Thor for a bit, than we had Lady Thor in the last decade?

[@sssspider]

@@Mike_Dubo Just because it originated in the comics doesn’t make it not dumb. Have you seen some of the bullshit that happens in comic books?

[@Mike_Dubo]

@@sssspider Oh, I know about plenty of idiocy that comics have had over the years, I just put it out there as Disney just using what already was in the comics, not being the ones responsible for the precedant. Lets just be glad they'll never do Avengers #200, and that they basically skipped One More Day.

[@caloykoy1]

10:40 I’ll have to straight disagree: Clint’s “ordinary-ness” *is* his superpower: how he has to overcome his guilt from being manipulated by Loki, how he showed the Avengers the importance of (in his case, a literal) family, how he encouraged Wanda to still fight even if the odds are bad, because it is their job. That’s the superpower. ♥️ Everything else, I agree with.

[@keithmichael112]

Imagine if Thanos got defeated by ants and a big dumb head in his second appearance. Not very threatening now

[@paulman34340]

Yeah they basically already ruin kang the conqueror. Even if the defenders go with Oh that was just a variant the fact he was hyped up to be a dangerous variant And he got defeated because the writer's realized they wrote themselves heavily into a corner. The biggest example being showing him using powers and Gadgets that he did not immediately use When he should have. I'm sorry there's only so much you can play the he was arrogant card I'm going to use them immediately and then I'm going to vaporize you. I mean look at thanos He never frequently hesitated to use any of the things he had an access to. Have His armada fire down on the heroes even if it meant hitting his own army A sacrifice he was willing to make to do serious damage to the heroes. Man wasn't even afraid to hurt himself if it meant directly harming the heroes. I mean look what happened in end game when he got his hands on the gauntlet. He was here he even willingly pulled out the power stone Into his bare hands just to knock Mary Sue Marvel Carol a new one! The final battle It was marvelous and I will say end game did top Infinity War with the final battle Because you had the final blows fight everyone and he was shown how he was such a big threat even without the stones. That's how you do a final boss you show just how big Of a threat they are, look at Final fantasy 7 If you beat the Balls before you actually fight the final Boss fast enough. The 1st phase will pretty much have you fighting him with your entire party. Not your top 3 your entire party. I even know a few other games that have you pretty much facing the final boss with everybody. To the point you wonder if you're playing dynasty Warriors with how many of your allies are on screen when normally that doesn't happen. But after aunt man 3, When the final boss fight Of the new bigger bad becomes about. It has to be so awesome that I will forget that entire fiasco of when they got defeated before other variant or not. Ant-Man 3 It's not how you present the bigger bad. H*** Thanos It was teased so heavily in the after credits of many Marvel movies building up to Infinity War. That once he finally got off his chair He was wrecking heroes left To right, steam rolling them. I was even mad when he got killed off so easily and simply at the beginning of End game because well that made sense and it was meant to just show How anti climatic His defeat ended up being. They came preparing for a huge battle with their low numbers but instead ended up beating down an injured broken man With little fanfare. Even door decapitating him did the job it was supposed to do it was meant to be anti clematic what was the point it didn't change anything. If not for Scott They never would have even been able to reverse Everything and the one thing this new phase Basically screwed the pooch on What does it heavily and I mean heavily side steps The issue of everybody coming back to the world being in the state its end. Finding out family members were dead you have to imagine how many who survived committed suicide When they assumed their family members were gone forever help it was addressed in doctor strange 2 with his old colleague at the wedding Having gotten snapped And coming back the pretty much finds his brother pretty much died during the time skip. Some of the new stories should have focused heavily on the consequences of what happens like even if everyone was brought back to life what about those who were snapped when they had the disease or something where they cured did they just come back to life just to die again. Nice questions that will not be answered As they jiggle those freaking keys in front of us Praying for distraction. Some were good but some doesn't change that all of them ultimately sought by the end if you collectively get everything even if you add the good well it's how people are feeling about guardians of the Galaxy volume 3, It was good but sadly because everything else sucked, If you were to give it a letter grade it came up with the entire phase everything would come up D As in I would give it A D plus Only because of the Small good stuff as you pointed out With Hawkeye and volume 3 of guardians of the Galaxy. But honestly I was only watching some of the movies of characters who already there because I wanted to see the conclusions of their story that was it. Disappointed with many of them.

[@Kevin-tl1zs]

Then he wouldn't be Thanos

[@whitemagus2000]

And got killed by an alternate of an alternate of a support character in his first appearance.

[@nalaka3488]

Sometimes I wish thanos won, just so phase 4 and 5 never happened

[@shironasama0445]

Easily the stupidest part of Quantumania

[@Britbaby961]

Honestly... Kate's arc about wanting to *_be_* Hawkeye is pretty relatable because at one point we've all wanted to be our fav superhero. Just in this instance Kate had a personal connection with Hawkeye (seeing him fight during the battle of N.Y. and then picking up archery because of that)

[@arostwocents]

Yeah at least they didn't just pretend she was Clint and then was automatically way better than he ever was

[@Thed538dhsk]

10:51 Clint is MVP. When the avengers have him on their team, they win. When they don't have Clint, they lose

[@EverettBurger]

Kate and Clint have an interesting equilibrium because they are so different as a character. He is blue collar and rural. Just doing a job to provide for his family while trying to make good in the world. As I said in another thread, he is Danny Glover's character in Lethal Weapon. I assumed I would hear Clint say "I'm too old for this sh*t" in his own show. Kate is white collar and urban. She is a trust fund baby from Manhattan. She learned her craft by having parents pay for expensive lessons and boarding schools. The fact that she sees Clint as a mentor is a big character arc for both. And why it works.

[@arostwocents]

"trust fund baby who got everything handed to her" - Disney definitely tells their writers to write what they know 😂

[@danielmejorado6098]

I agree with most of the points you make in your content. But i disagree with you on th topic of Clint Barton not being interesting. Without delving into the tragedy of his character from the comics, the movies make him interesting by making him a regular at first glance. Its easy to dismiss him as a cheesy Olympic level archer with some gadget arrows. Howeverr, i think him being a highly trained hybrid of James Bond and Robinhood who was probably the biggest baddest rockstar hero before people started showing up with superpowers IS the interesting angle. And the fact that he's aware of how ridiculously outclassed he is by the other Avengers but still tries to pitch in and make a difference is what makes him a true hero. Just ask Stan Lee.

[@gregowen2022]

I think the show did a lot to deepen his charcter, but in terms of fan favorites, it was too late to rank him high on most lists. The comments are in support of him, though. The show boosted him

[@Chuck_EL]

​​@@gregowen2022 even thou i liked shehulk as a intelligencia fan , they really took the low hanging fruit and decided to troll the men you spoke of who didnt get why patrick batman or tyler durden werent heros or idols and didnt understand the movie's point that they were toxic masculinity traits (same ones who funny enough constantly cry about toxic feminity) by making it a anti woman incel group then they just forgot that and tried to put it back on whatever the plot was for the whole show why did they think that wouldnt offend everyone even fans of the show called that out ....thats something teenagers do to get over on people or internet trolls not a billion dollar studio after having about the pr backstorys and the firing of the person who wanted to force diversity hires and mantle plots now it makes sense why all of the crap has been going on

[@morizanova]

The problem with Cliff is direct comparison with Green Arrow which arguably already established in viewer`s head space for better or worse . His solo comic also never showing that he was worth for Solo Featured movies or dedicated series . I would argue that Winter Soldier ( with Sebastian Stan) will be better option if Studio ever thinking to make a gamble move

[@edmorris4103]

Well said. 100% agree. I know I'm the minority here, but Clint Barton is my favorite Avenger specifically because he's not special.

[@chrisvainio]

⁠@@morizanovaI really enjoyed the original Fraction/Aja run with the tracksuit mafia. It’s a fun ride.

[@RickF7666]

Hawkeye knew that he was just a guy with a bow hanging out with other guys who were massively powerful, but he made himself useful, not indispensable, but useful. As far as I'm concerned he should be respected. There is so much they could have done with him, but like everything else in Phase 4, they squandered that potential.

[@MichaelCravith]

"Simply adding Hulk powers to a character that is the anthropomorphic equivalent to the colour beige doesn't suddenly make them interesting." God, I love this line.

[@magnaquam]

As a guy whose family loves and drinks La Croix, I found your descriptions absolutely hilarious and 💯 accurate.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@magnaquam how do you pronounce that drink?

[@magnaquam]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp “La-Kroy”. But you have to pronounce it with the same face you make as when you drink it. 😖

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@magnaquam Ok, so I've been doing it correctly then

[@magnaquam]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp either that or we’re both wrong. 😁

[@VioletAeonSnowfield]

It's ironic that you showed a clip of Kate during the description of the issue of character versus mantle when out of all of the new heroes, she's the only one that they even bother trying to characterize. I'd even say they succeeded. Hawkeye had a lot of issues, but the way they handled Kate Bishop was one of the show's high points.

[@jdraven0890]

Alanzo's mantle theory: "Anyone can be Ironman". I suppose anyone can superficially assume that title, but Tony Stark is Ironman and no one else is Tony Stark.

[@iceprism367]

Honestly I don't think we need a "new Iron Man", just someone who can fill his role in a team. The new conflict has to center around someone. I think Strange would've probably worked well if they knew how to utilize him. The multiverse could've been his thing, but I feel like they've barely touched on his actual character even in his own movies. He's almost sidelined for younger characters when he could've been the main focus of the new phase.

[@majorgear1021]

Truth.

[@BranBal]

​@@iceprism367 Exactly!

[@natperXD]

You know what's funny, didn't Stan Lee say almost the say the same thing about Spiderman's costume. Though what he actually said was "anyone could be under that mask." Similar to Ratatouille where Anton Ego talks about Chef Gusteau's quote "anyone can cook."

[@majorgear1021]

@@natperXD Nope.

[@w1ll_0_w1sp4]

Kate Bishop was a good character. She had a good arc, although the last episode could have been better. There wasn't enough time spent on King Pin imo. Either they should have had a different final villain or another season.

[@grahamstrouse1165]

Hawkeye was surprisingly good, IMO. I liked Old Man Clint & Kate & I liked Yelena. It helped, I think, that Jeremy, Hailee & Florence are genuinely superb actors. Hailee Steinfeld won an Oscar for No Country for Old Men when she was 13 or 14 & Jeremy Renner had a couple nominations. This was back before the awards got completely political. Florence Pugh is also a terrific character actor. (I didn’t like the new version Kingpin but we can talk about that another time.)

[@metalluccio]

We are living in an age that values superficial stuff over real content, not because of stupidity, but due to complete ignorance. We're seeing everywhere people cutting a slice of bread , slamming on some cheese and tomato , putting it into the microwave for some time, then "Here's your pizza!", and when you complain about that not being pizza, they go screaming "You racist/sexist/homophobe/whatever! What's wrong about my pizza? Pizza is bread , tomato and cheese! SO if you don't like it you're at fault!". They're CLUELESS. I cannot really think that, the level of insanity is caused by real and only malice, it goes too deep. It's the corporate approach to product gone extreme. They dress whatever they see in a costume that they think an audience might like and throw it on the market, it fails and what do they do? change the costume and throw it again on the market. It's clearly the wrong people calling the shots, we have marketing managers in the same room as videogame designer deciding what a game should look like. It's like having a baker in an engineering room deciding how to build a rocket. But they fail to see it,they think that creativity is just something everyone has, more or less, and the real knowledge of the craft is secondary. As long as this mentality reigns, we will keep getting cheap copies of what really could have been. Just my 2 cents.

[@rileyowen7245]

👍 perfect you deserve more likes

[@Truth_SeekR]

I agree with your comment but stopped reading cuz I don't agree that you should be allowed to use so many characters. Don't do that

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@yomanyo327 Pepperoni

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@yomanyo327 😂man, I'm gettin hungy

[@nathaniellasnetske613]

2 cents well spent.

[@robertgardiner7709]

I see Kate as more of a Robin to Clint's Batman than an outright successor. She's generally a pretty respectful student of her personal hero, Also her idolization of him was rather great for his "be kinder to yourself" arc.

[@gregowen2022]

I can see the batman and robin analogy, that's pretty good. I guess we'll see where she goes with this young avenger trend

[@dewdecsysabz5323]

@@gregowen2022that and she falls over a lot. We don’t see that with most liberal woke shi when it comes to girly heroes. It shows she’s a woman and an actual human too.

[@shadowbane7401]

and we all know robin becomes nightwing

[@TheOrangeDuke01]

Clint is not just my favorite Avenger, he is my favorite super hero and the reason I've collected Avengers comics since the 70s. Modern audiences hate Clint because he can't destroy planets with his eyeballs, which is one of the reasons I loved him. But to remind you of the point you thought you were making, Clint was great because of who he was, not what he can do.

[@masterosiris7506]

EXACTLY! Besides having adamantium balls, as shown in AOU. Quote: "Hey, look at me. It’s your fault, it’s everyone’s fault. Who cares? Are you up for this? Are you? Look, I just need to know. Because the city is flying. Okay. Look, the city is flying, we’re fighting an army of robots, and I have a bow and arrow. None of this makes sense. But I’m going back out there because it’s my job. Okay? And I can’t do my job and babysit. It doesn’t matter what you did or what you were. If you go out there, you fight, and you fight to kill."

[@lordmortarius538]

I grew up learning archery and got damn good at it, and then I saw there were superheroes who did the same thing: Hawkeye and Green Arrow, and I instantly loved them. Easily my favorites, because I saw that if they could do it, so could I.

[@drisgorilla5382]

I think there's another factor at work. Stan Lee required Marvel movies be true to his comics' basic values, in plot and in theme. The stories had core values from our greatest generation and he developed the heroes' character traits so that each of us would find someone to identify with, to emulate. The movies, ending with Endgame kept the main thing the main thing.

[@scottb3034]

Lee had no power and hasn't had any power in Marvel for 40 years. What made them work is they did bother to be somewhat loyal to the characters' personalities but the stories they chose to use were fairly safe, they didn't dip deep into their progressive catalogue and kept the experimentation to stuff like Guardians of the Galaxy. Most of the great stories they used were recent (Winter Soldier, Age of Ultron and Civil War were post-2000 storylines) or iconic stuff NOT written with the greatest generation in mind (Infinity Gauntlet, etc). Marvel thought they had the power to experiment because they were untouchable at the box office for almost a decade and so went into agenda'd or experimental storytelling, they were wrong. I also feel the death of Chadwick Boseman screwed up their plans immensely as he was due to be the face of the post Endgame universe.

[@briangoubeaux5360]

Talking about how Captain America was a PR stunt reminded me of the first film where Captain America was a LITERAL PR STUNT. He was mainly used as morale until Steve stepped up as a soldier. With Sam Wilson being a PR stunt, Captain America has gone full circle with an adjacent in US Agent.

[@Wolffman109]

At least U.S. Agent was fun to watch...

[@VaughanAtLarge]

Hawkeye has always been one of my favourites (before movies). I've always liked archery and gadgets, so a hero who uses trick-arrows, awesome! Not to mention he's the ultimate underdog! A circus performer turned criminal who later joins a team of tech geniuses, mutant monsters and Gods! Even though he's just a normal human with a bow, he's been a core member of the averages in almost every iteration. He's earned his place as one of earths greatest heroes, and one of my favourites. Beats out Green Arrow by miles!

[@simplegarak]

I don't think it will change because while Victoria is gone, the philosophy still lingers. There is a classic webcomic where a girl is writing something down and talks about the protagonist of her new story and proceeds to rattle off a list of traits (like gay, "of color", disabled, etc). Her roommate then asks, "but what about their character?" To which the author replies, "their what?" Look I was there, it's a common factor for new writers to list down "traits" of their characters. I remember doing it. The key is that you're supposed to grow out of it. Too many storytellers of the current pop culture landscape seem stuck in the above mode and never able to think of a character beyond their traits. I know I've run across people in the past who didn't understand how a character is not their traits which is why I recommend Mr. Plinkett's "character test" from the review of Episode 1. Strip away the traits, dig deep, get to the core of the character. If you have nothing once the traits are stripped away, then you have a prop - not a character. P.S. Clint became beloved when it was revealed he was a devoted family man. There are a LOT of fans of his out there - many dreaming of being Mrs. Hawkeye.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

True, it's completely infected Disney and the IPs they own.

[@mirceazaharia2094]

Great comment. Will take a look at that review, thanks. Gold to see Mr Plinkett has become something of an Internet icon.

[@natperXD]

This sounds similar to what Cap said to Ironman "Without the suit, what are you?" So it's pretty funny how Marvel basically made all their new characters basically suits without thinking about the people wearing them despite having this plotline for Ironman (cause this does get explored more in Ironman 3 I think).

[@MegaMilenche]

@@natperXD In return, Cap was nothing without the genetic experiment.

[@frostbite_711]

I agree 100%. I once mentioned to a group that I dislike characters who become a "token" character. Where the only thing that defines them is their race/gender/sexuality/religion. A good character has a personality and motivation beyond the superficial things. We also need to see how a character's life is hard, show their struggles so we can connect instead of preaching to us about "how I've been discriminated against". For example, with Steve, we saw his desire to fight and join the war, to stop the Nazis because he hated bullying. We saw how he put his own life at risk and was innovative while the rest of his training squad were more along the lines of the typical "jock". For Clint, we saw how he had a family that he wanted to protect. During the Blip, he became a cold killer because he'd lost his family. He lost his way, and at first didn't want to come back, but was eventually convinced to help the rest of the avengers bring everyone back. We don't have to see someone's entire life, but we need to see their struggles so we can emphasize and connect with them. If all you show is someone who complains about how their life is worse than another person because of things that are again, superficial, then all you have is a blank character that little to no one cares about.

[@kauinoa2004]

11:02 My favorite Clint moment was actually in Age of Ultron when he basically says part of this. He’s like “none of this makes sense…there’s robots…we’re flying…I have a bow and arrows”

[@kevincarr3213]

You have nailed it. To me the Avengers ran its course and Endgame, while not the best finish, was a finish and closed it out. Yes, ppl cared about the characters, and ppl cared what happened to them and that is likely why in the finale the other phases have not done as well. There will not be another Iron man as well as the others. Most don't care about the power, race and gender swapped bunch.

[@thehumancomet]

100% agree. People cried watching Endgame because it felt like saying goodbye to people who had been like family for 10 years.. These mantle swaps are like home invaders wearing the ID tags of the people we miss. Just not gonna work.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

I'd argue only Tony really got an ending. Cap's ending makes no sense. Black Widow died. Thor was just reset, so he could find himself all over again over 20 films in. Pretty much reinvented as a Guardian of the Galaxy because they had no clue what to do with him. Hulk was turned into a joke, and had no arc. Pretty much wrote away the most interesting half of the character.

[@kevincarr3213]

@@DavidMartinez-ce3lp True, I do have to agree with you. What should have happened was give each an actual end. It didn’t have to be long and drawn out. What they have created is a mess.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@kevincarr3213 Exactly, they all needed a conclusion to their arcs across the first 3 phases. A true jumping off point.

[@majorgear1021]

Infinity War was the perfect ending. Ok, Thanos should have snapped again , but otherwise it was great.

[@tylerharris7081]

Clint is the grounded everyman of the Avengers. He kept the human element for all the other, more dramatic characters stable. He isn't anyone's favorite, but he was an important part of the team.

[@matheusalcantara6912]

Seriously. I keep asking myself how much money those companies have to lose for them to understand that this "Identity Politics" bullshit doesn't work.

[@613harbinger316]

It takes a loooong time to turn an aircraft carrier around. Even more so when it's going full bore. There's still a lot of momentum and money being made with the MCU, just not as much, so there's little motivation from the Hollywood machine to stop. And all the while you have activists and ideologues on the inside doing their best to spread _The Message._ It's going to take some time. This is how I see California (my state) and how much the left can afford to push it's resource-sucking, parasitic agenda. California is a HUGE state with lots of natural resources and an economy equivalent to some modern countries. It'll take a lot of damage to really hurt it, and all the while the left can pretend it's crappy agenda is doing no harm (although I admit San Francisco is looking really bad).

[@amadeusagripino6862]

They'll never stop, not until Blackrock and other ESG funds ceases to exist

[@gregowen2022]

Yeah, it's going to be another couple years at least, since they are already making a bunch of products that have this idea baked in. The investors almost had a successful revolt, but Iger uttered the magic word Dividend and everyone was too greedy to care about the brand being blown to bits

[@majorgear1021]

All the money. They intend on dying on this hill.

[@tylerharris7081]

The leadership of the companies are surrounded by shallow activists and cowardly yes men who keep telling them it will be worthwhile. Any criticism of this forced diversification is dismissed as a bunch of bigoted trolls. They really think most people love the tokenized characters.

[@anakinegbensetalo9733]

You know why I like Kate Bishop? We want our heroes to be inspiring, and she shows how actually inspired by Hawkeye. And it's not just stupid fangirling, like Ms Marvel, she's actually fleshed out and her relationship with Clint is great over the show. She is what I would be if I lived in the MCU, I identify with her, even though I'm not a girl.

[@christophertaylor9100]

Here's my problem with Kate Bishop: Hawkeye: I have a 40 year career in special ops military and espionage, and a long, rich background with depth you can sense even if you don't get it told Kate Bishop: I can do everything he does at age 19. Cept better because girl

[@anakinegbensetalo9733]

@@christophertaylor9100 We must have watched a different show then. The only thing that Kate can really do is shoot arrows. If you really think Clint is nothing more than his bow and arrow, then sure, Kate can do everything he can...

[@zrc1514]

@@christophertaylor9100 The entire show shows her slowly learning to do the things he can and she's still not good at them.

[@ricardogoncalves164]

Your comment about Clint i think is applicable to the first Avenger. I think they realize they couldn't make the archer compete with gods in terms of Coolness, so they gave him more depth, introducing his family and a more vulnerable side of him, using that fact later in the Thanos saga. He was lame in the First Avenger, but it became someone relatable in the second movie. They tried to give Natasha depth in the same movie, but it didn't work (in my opinion). There's a line in the Hawkeye show, when Kate is talking about his brand, you can apply that to his marketing approach after the first Avenger. Overall, i think the good compensate for the bad in the Hawkeye show. It was the only fase four i enjoyed

[@michaelmurphy2112]

Then they made Clint self aware about how out of his depth he is in his pep talk to Wanda during Age of Ultron. He admits he's just a guy wit ha weapon from the Stone Age fighting gods and monsters and he doesn't belong there, but he's going to fight because the people needed to be protected. I think that speech is when he became my favorite.

[@errorcode6168]

As I recall, Clint first showed up in Thor's first movie, not Cap's.

[@michaelmurphy2112]

@@errorcode6168 Yes he did. He was briefly in Thor at the "hammer site". I don't think he was in the first Captain America at all

[@billmartinson4205]

@@michaelmurphy2112 And in his debut he had a great line that made me like him right away. He's perched high, talking to Fury on comms and watching Thor (an unknown intruder to them) kick everyone's ass. At some point he makes a comment about how they need to wrap this up quickly because "I'm starting to root for this guy." I didn't even have a clue who he was or even that a character named Hawkeye existed, but that line made me like Clint before I even knew who he was.

[@scottb3034]

@@michaelmurphy2112 I was confused as well but they seemed to mean First Avengers movie not Cap's film.

[@theseanwardshow]

I get why dopes who have no interest in the history of the characters want to work on a big successful franchise. It's a sweet gig, it makes perfect sense. What I don't get is why the companies let people like sana amanat in publishing and Victoria Alonso on the movie side get in and start making these stupid decisions

[@gregowen2022]

Right? I figured the money would talk at a certain point, but we aren’t seeing it

[@jwbjerk]

Yeah, Clint doesn’t have powers. And he knows he isn’t in the same weight class as Thor, Hulk, Ironman, or their foes. He struggles with it. But he keeps on getting up and going out there. That’s what makes him awesome.

[@antonioyeats2149]

Good call. Litterally the same bit that made muemen rider in OPM such a compelling subplot

[@badconnection4383]

There's only one way to make the mantle method work and sometimes it comes in the form of animation. In JoJo's Bizzare Adventure, the main protagonists are relatives of a guy named Johnathan Joestar, these characters follow in his footsteps and borrow certain traits about him but AREN'T clones of him. For example his grandson Joseph is intelligent, Joseph's grandson Jotaro is heroic and so forth and so on. You have the spirit of the original but also a character establishing themselves as their own person. Another example is in Arcane, the short version is that there is a guy named Vander who formally was a boxer, he has an adopted daughter named Vi who borrows a lot of his fighting techniques from him. As Vi's story progresses, she is shown to be VERY different from Vander but as his daughter, his spirit is in her. In the final fight scene in Season 1, she hears his ghost talk to her. So in short, Vi is allowed to be her own person AND not overshadow nor eclipse Vander's legacy.

[@bremjo7929]

The Arcane example isn’t great, simply because Vander isn’t a character we really care about or spend a lot of time with, but the JoJo’s example is perfect. All the main characters (other than the first) are based on the exact same alignment of “morally grey but well intentioned”. The show itself refers to it more as them being a delinquent with a heart of gold. That being said, every single Joestar takes this to a new height. Joseph is probably the least morally grey, as he mostly just gets into shenanigans you’d expect from a teenager. Jotaro ups it slightly by being alot more destructive in his actions. Josuke seperates these two sides into different personalities, one is super gentle and caring, while the other is ruthlessly explosive. Giorno is the most grey character, as he literally kills his opponents and takes over the mafia, but he does it to stop drugs being sold to children - a very noble cause. Jolyne is an actual criminal that that tries to stop someone else from doing something even worse. All these characters have the exact same backbone, but none of them even remotely seem repetitive or lazy. The fact that JoJo’s can get it right 8 times in a row with the exact same framework shows just how lazy and bad Disney has gotten

[@shahwiqarshahin2130]

10:32 You obviously missed the boat when many MCU fans complained "Where was Clint during Infinity War?" Russo were compelled to put Clint in the 1st scene of Endgame.

[@oliviastratton2169]

Actually, the Russos said that they filmed the scene of Clint losing his family for Infinity War. But ended up cutting it and used it to open Endgame instead.

[@Jazzman4824]

I loved the second hawkeye. You do connect with her skills and struggles, and with her bonding time with clint. I would say out of all of them her and yelena functioned the best and felt the most grounded as heroes who earned their mantles.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

Kate Bishop is one of the new more diverse mantle swaps that really worked. Her comics was actually really good.

[@Bucketus.Lord.of.Buckets]

"Congratulations, Falcon. We are now upgrading you to white man" - that's what this mantle thing is. Screw creating new characters, just upgrade them to the white person they're replacing. That is what they did in the comics (look at "the totally awesome hulk) and what they were obviously going to do in the movies. The comics failed, and the movies are going down the same path

[@gregowen2022]

Exactly! All they did with the falcon winter soldier show was tell the audience that A) white people are better and their position is desireable, and B) black people's lives are 100% struggle, they aren't complex humans. It was just gross

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

Sam Wilson is just fine as Falcon and Captain America is Steve Rogers. That's all there is to it. For that matter Amadeus Cho was great as Amadeus Cho. _Incredible Hercules_ is one of my favorite comics ever because of the chemistry between him and Herc.

[@docblade3270]

Is hard to understand how a company that took TENS of years to create iconic characters recognized in almost anywhere in the world by adults and children could just destroy then WILLINGLY in 5 or less!

[@RandyMarsh0301]

They made the mistaken of trying to rush to get back on schedule. The pandemic screw up their schedules and now they're pumping out content like it never happened.

[@andrewnigo61]

They also made the mistake of letting themselves be bought by Bob Iger. Marvel under Disney should never have happened.

[@nimz8521]

It is owned by a company who made their brand on family values and has done a complete 180 on that and doesn't understand how that alienated their core audience. So there is that.

[@emsnewssupkis6453]

The key here was 'sold to DISNEY' like Star Wars and Star Trek

[@joet7136]

Greedy capitalists intent on squeezing as much money as possible as quickly as possible. Long term thinking is not part of their dna.

[@tedsowards]

They do such poor service to their new characters and then blame us the audience when we don’t like it.

[@JohnSmith-bz9be]

I do not know why Marvel does not turn to some of the comic book writers that made comics great back in the 80s and 90s and who are still around to write some of these movies or to mentor new writers in the art of storytelling. You are 100% right here and it is a shame they are wrecking such a huge cash cow with crappy movies and lousy TV shows. The only reason why these suits up at Marvel/Disney realise something is wrong is because the profits have now become deficits, but the money is out there, just like John Wick 4 and the Super Mario Bros movie have shown. It may be too late for them now. I really did like X-Men: Days of Future Past (I know it is from a different studio). I wonder if they are going to screw up Deadpool. But I do know that the new Avengers with this bland cast is going to be horrendous... Sigh...

[@evos469]

Because the current owners of Marvel are run by femnazis and their agenda

[@Tyler_W]

It's because Hollywood doesn't actually respect comic books and their creators. Marvel Studios, if I'm not mistaken, actually had a kind of story group that saw to appropriate characterization and figuring out how to best take inspiration from the comics that best suited what these movies were trying to accomplish, but that went out the window when Kevin Fiege gained greater autonomy around 2015-2016 around the end of Phase 2, beginning of Phase 3, when Bob Iger removed Ike Perlmutter as a moderating influence. (Fiege would then answer directly to Iger at the top of the food chain instead of reporting to Perlmutter who was the final decision man.)

[@JohnSmith-bz9be]

@@Tyler_W Very interesting and good to know. Cheers

[@brah9649]

Ego and agenda. That’s why

[@fuzzblightyear145]

because these new movies have to send, the quote the Drinker, "...The Message'

[@CyGea]

The first Avengers comics I picked up in the '70s, featured Clint Barton/Hawkeye. Hawkeye was my favorite Avenger, he was someone I could be, if I trained enough. An Ex-villain, looking to change sides. So when he clashes with Iron Man (over a misunderstanding) and takes him down, he proclaims it his audition to join the team. No super power, just skill. And being an ex-villain, gave him a "cool" factor, that Green Arrow didn't have.

[@googleislame]

I do not see Marvel Studios course-correcting any time soon (even with the firing of Victoria Alonso) because all of the Disney brands are engaging in mantle-swapping. Rey is mantle-swapped Luke Skywalker. They even gave her his name. Bo Katan is mantle-swapped Din Djarin. Cruz Ramirez is mantle-swapped Lightning McQueen. This phenomenon is even happening behind the scenes. John Lassetter was mantle-swapped out for Jennifer Lee. Tim Allen was mantle-swapped out for Chris Evans. Alonso might have been the champion of the mantle method at Marvel Studios, but the entire ideology appears to be completely embedded into the corporate culture.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

True, it's all over Disney

[@balu2567]

Let's enjoy the destruction of Disney, atleast it will make a good story for a movie

[@lancethefilmguy9392]

​@@balu2567 The Rise & Fall of the House of Mouse

[@scottb3034]

marvel has championed mantle swapping for decades, DC even before that. this is not new.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

@@scottb3034 but they used to know how to actually do it properly

[@scottmatheson8316]

I think mantles can be passed... But the characters that are going to take up the mantle have to go thru their own heroes journey to get to the point where they are worthy... Bucky should have been the new Cap... His journey proved his character would respect the mantle... Falcon is a good character as he is and didn't need to be given the mantle until Bucky was either corrupted, broken, or killed, then he would've taken up the Cap mantle in respect to his friend Bucky after all they've gone through to become friends... IMHO

[@natperXD]

I think Falcon getting the mantle makes sense because Cap probably just wanted Bucky to rest. I mean the dude has fought in a war, been brainwashed, and had to deal with getting dusted. Plus, he has some ptsd, so probably not the best to have the mantle. Falcon also does prove himself by helping Steve in the The Winter Solder without having any real powers and just doing the right thing. But they could have handled Falcon getting the mantle better.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

Marvel and DC have been doing mantle swaps for decades and they almost never really take. "Robin" going from Dick Grayson to Jason Todd to Tim Drake to Damian Wayne has worked. Wally West became The Flash because DC committed to keeping Barry Allen dead for 2 decades. I guess Scott Lang is established as Ant-Man now but I can't really think of any others.

[@_eggers]

Alonso was just following what the comics did in 2016. The craziest part was it clearly didn’t work back then so idk why anyone thought it would work in the movies

[@darkguardian1314]

Iron Heart's backstory should have had her adopted by Tony Stark on one of his PR crusades and sent to a boarding school for most of her life... Just like Howard Stark did to him.... Before End Game and after losing so many people Tony makes a hologram of himself to give to Riri Williams because that's what tech nerds do. He wanted to make up for his years of neglecting her. She wasn't thrilled but after seeing what he did to samve the world, Riri Williams decides to carry on Tony's work with a little help from Rescue (Pepper Potts). That would have worked and been accepted and not the garbage we got. Also, the Power Ranger special effects have got to go.

[@gregowen2022]

The internet has spoken and I have severely underestimated poor Clint's popularity. That's one in the L column for me 😂😅

[@613harbinger316]

It's kind of funny considering the whole conversation regarding mantles vs. strong characterization. Clint has a relatively small mantle of power but a ton of characterization. Therefore, he should be loved, or at least appreciated, by a lot of fans.

[@h0ll0w0ne]

I mean, disregarding the fact that he is just a cool dude with a nice family and all that. Clint as no powers and he keeps up with the avengers. That's pretty bad ass. Superman said so (about Batman but it translates).

[@firefiy8789]

Yeah. Hawkeye is my fave, because he is so human compared to the other avengers. You really should have included that in the early part of the video - character comes before superpowers

[@rainmorga]

Korg? Noone likes Taika Waititi's mouthpiece...

[@marlsberlin7716]

Must have been bots. Everybody who has seen the first two phases and me are indifferent to Clint at best, and hate him at worst. The most useless "hero" ever seen. And I must say that Renner wasn't even making an effort either, for a guy with an Oscar, he was bland most of the time, and the rest plain bad.

[@Neutral_1zed]

4:08 And the biggest half is John Walker just being a better character because his story is actually a story and not a message John Walker took on the mantle of Captain America, but come with it are grievances of the past from Steve’s two old comrades and friends. How will Walker prove to the world and Captain America’s most trusted allies that he has what it takes? Yeah no, Walker was practically the main character of that show. He tried to get along with Bucky and Sam, tried to solve the issue of the flag smashers as his duties required him. Lost his friend in a tragedy because Bucky and Sam wouldn’t stop getting in his way, he then learns the hard way that all his patriotisim is thrown under the bus if public opinion turns against him, even so; he will do what he had originally set out to do over his revenge, that is to save people. You can just tell he was written for a story and not some woke agenda. The hidden gem everyone saw past because he got thrown a bucket of black paint, what a great character.

[@M星の水晶]

Not going to lie. I had to pause the video for how funny it is that the internet proved you wrong about Clint. And yes. I pick him too. Clint's a great avenger. Especially when you consider when he can be on par with Gods, despite his abilities are something as simple as Super bows and great accuracy.

[@gregowen2022]

Haha, I've been wrong in the past, but I can't remember being THAT wrong. It was too funny not to include

[@edmorris4103]

Hawkeye is my favorite Avenger, specifically **because** there's nothing special about him. He's just a dude who's really, REALLY good at what he does. I like Kate Bishop for similar reasons, though her screentime and writing definitely could have used a bit more polish. Other than that, you hit the nail on the head. Well said.

[@MacSmithVideo]

You shoot your argument in the foot by saying Hawkeye isn't interesting while listing off the other avenger's powers. He's interesting because he's an interesting character. Powers don't matter.

[@gagelindell271]

Hes not interesting at all. Totally lame.

[@tonybriggs280]

​@Gage Lindell writing to let you know that you're still wrong a day later.

[@gagelindell271]

@@tonybriggs280 Dumbest. Comment. On. KZbin. Well. Done!

[@Ottamus_Prime]

Hawkeye was just a dude who shot arrows, like cool?

[@bestaround3323]

I mean neat, that's like 1 character out of 5? Still not great

[@maravreloaded]

The problem with these characters is that, they aren't characters they're just vessels for any political opinion the writer and or producer has. And their biggest struggle is "knowing how cool they're and why they have the superior power"

[@daishikaze3986]

One major problem with She-hulk is that they tried to jump straight to the John Byrne stuff without establishing the character and her struggles (and I don't mean the stuff she ranted about in the show). Before we got to the Byrne stuff, she had to live with not being able to control the transformation just like Bruce did. She had to live in fear of being found out because the people who had seen her had thought to was an uncontrolable monster like her cousin was. it was a good while before she could live a somewhat normal life without hiding what she had become. THEN she joined the Avengers and she really came into her own, Stopped being afraid of what she was and embraced it and felt liberated. THEN she spent time as one of the Fantastic Four before going off on her own fun fourth wall breaking adventures. You can't skip straight to the Four Wall Breaking adventures until you have firmly established who she is and what she's been through to get there. But that's lazy Disney Marvel for ya

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

Great point but I think they were going more for the Dan Slott stuff than the John Byrne stuff.

[@joshuaferguson1200]

I'm the most hype about kate bishop. I found her likeable as a character outside of just her abilities. And her show was great

[@michaelreich4827]

Disney knows what the problem is, but they keep doubling down on it because their balls are in a Blackrock vise.

[@TheShockVox]

Sam is the only one I’m totally fine with taking up the mantle. Steve Rogers is the man you want in your corner. Sam Wilson is the man Steve Rogers wanted in HIS corner. When SHIELD, the government, and even his fellow Avengers were against him, could count on Sam to support him.

[@tylerharris7081]

I agree Sam represented the best of the modern American Soldier. He was a good choice to carry on Cap's legacy. Until the show decided his most important trait was his skin color.

[@vernonhampton5863]

I actually like Falcon in the MCU. He is vastly different from the main Comics. I like the veteran who responded to a new call to action, to help Captain America Steve Rogers. He's funny and he actually acts like a modern veteran.

[@antonioyeats2149]

For sure. I was actually excited to see that particular mantle pass because it's pretty much the only one that actually makes any sense whatsoever. They still fucked it all up though 😂

[@vernonhampton5863]

@@antonioyeats2149 if you really watch the show, it stank of re-writes. Even the "do better" speech was tacked on. Also, I think as hacky as it was, Sam was right and coming from the right place as a guy who couldn't get a loan... because he was dead.

[@antonioyeats2149]

@@vernonhampton5863 lol I'll take your word for it. I've gathered enough from random clips to know trying to actually sit through the show would just piss me off

[@vernonhampton5863]

@@antonioyeats2149 fair enough. There's plenty of other stuff to enjoy.

[@MarvinPowell1]

@Vernon Hampton Except when he ignored and antagonized a fellow soldier, who clearly had PTSD, in John Walker, despite it LITERALLY being his day job to be a combat veteran counselor, most likely merely due to his race. That's like being a doctor and refusing to save an injured person on the street on your day off because "that coon probably voted for Obama." That's how badly they f**k up Falcon in that horrendous Disney+ show.

[@sometimesfriendly9839]

Part of the problem is that once you get past a few characters everybody is just generic superstrength and ray beams.

[@myfathersson3751]

Im glad Victoria's gone

[@theimaginist3310]

Her whole “mantle” idea is absolute proof that she had no business at Marvel in a position of authority.

[@TheGreeneyed23]

Are you ? She was only a little part of a big problem

[@myfathersson3751]

I still I am 😄

[@TheGreeneyed23]

Where is Zemo at ?

[@moresnacksplease526]

They're going to be cleaning out her minions for the next 1-2 decades though. She probably had several diversity hires in HR, so it's going to be a long and messy process.

[@fcold9402]

That Clint is "just a guy with a bow an arrow" makes him even more heroic. He hangs with gods, supersoldiers and tech wizards and not as a hanger-on/comedy foil but an important contributing team member. Yeah I know this is a year old, but it just showed up on my feed...I really need to get to Gregs playlist.

[@ruxy2583]

I agree with your Thunderbolts segment,totally my most anticipated MCU project right now,but I must add John Walker is the character I'm most excited to see. Out of everyone in TFATWS he had the most character development and depth and I personally can't wait to see him again,he is the most over hated character in the MCU. Also I actually kind of liked Hawkeye,because it actually had some heart compared to the other Disney+ shows. Apart from that,agree with everything you said,we need to demand better from MCU. Wich is why I cancelled my Disney+ subscription(and so did 4 million other people) and I'm not subscribing again until they start making quality projects again ❤

[@gregowen2022]

John definitely has good room for a redemption arc. It's unfortunate that they made everyone hate him just to prop up New Cap. Thunderbolts should be an easy win, I hope they don't fumble it

[@ruxy2583]

@@gregowen2022 damnn I'm so happy you responded to my comment. Love your channel🥰 and yes, thunderbolts should be a very easy win for them since team-up movies are always better liked than solo movies. But we'll see.

[@dantheman1998]

The point of Hawkeye to me at least...was that he was probably the most vulnerable Avenger but he still risked his life into situations that even the more powerful Avengers would of struggled with so he was still just as Heroic...idk thats my take.

[@NefariousKoel]

You never go full tokenism. I don't think Disney/Marvel/LucasFilm/Hollywood/Corporations got the memo.

[@thenecrophymm6591]

Clint is US. His power is being regular people. We fight for what we love and care about, not because we have a responsibility too cause we have powers. How do you not like Clint? You are Clint. Clint is your path to immersion, its how you can be part of the story, "You guys go do you, I'm with him."

[@TruculentRuminavi]

The problem is new characters. Just that. You cannot retire main characters. Recast them if the actors dont want to return. Imagine DC retiring superman, batman and replace then with robin, superboy.

[@From-North-Jersey]

Actually Skippy Hawkeye was so popular they launched a second Avengers book in the 80's called West Coast Avengers simply to give Hawkeye his own book, it did great until they transferred fan favorite Hawkeye back to the east coast team causing the west coast book to die.

[@msmaria5039]

I am pissed at how Jen was portrayed. Why not show her as one of the victims of the blip? She was a young lawyer when she blinked and five years went by. You can have the show show her struggle to adapt to the change. And then somehow got the powers. Boom, better background.

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

Because then she wouldn't be a strong independent female lady girl

[@moresnacksplease526]

They could solve so many problems around re-booting the MCU, streaming content, story-lines, creativity, and subscribers if they did a special like 'Werewolf by Night' for each of the X-Men, but that would be smart and deviating from the formula, so it'll never happen.

[@antonioyeats2149]

Lol not even a terrific idea but the bars so, so, so low that it sounds brilliant at this point

[@moresnacksplease526]

@@antonioyeats2149 It's common sense. They could build The Brotherhood of Mutants at the same time and double the toy sales.

[@antonioyeats2149]

@@moresnacksplease526 common sense definitely doesn't mean what you think it means my friend. What it is, is low hanging fruit that could be thought up in a 6th grade English classroom could have thought up. The point is its STILL better than what was actually ran

[@Hecatom]

This mantle thing reminds me how some years ago, 2017 , when Marvel vs Capcom Infinite failed to add fan favorites due Disney, the Capcom sopkesman, Combofiend replied with something along the lines of the mantle ideology. "If you were to actually think about it, these characters are just functions. They're just doing things," ... "Magneto, case and point, is a favorite because he has eight-way dash and he's really fast, right? Well guess what, Nova can do the same thing, Captain Marvel can do the same thing. Ultron can do the same thing."... "It's just the function that people are associating with the character, and there's no shortage of that. We made sure that all proper playstyles can be represented with our current roster." Which defeats the whole point of a crossover game.

[@GeekOwtLowd]

The only character in Thunderbolts I care about is Bucky. I have no interest in any character born of the crap Black Widow movie. Girl Taskmaster is repellent... worse than Jar Jar Binks because she's more insulting to the intelligence. Her existence is tantamount to Lucasfilm saying "Boba Fett was a girl all along! Suck it, manbabies!" And Ghost, or whatever her name is, is an annoying character. She ruins Ant-Man 2 with her conveniently inconvenient constant need to antagonize the heroes and not communicate with them. She was just a frustrating plot contrivance in Ant Man, and not an actual character.

[@tavismillard]

Thank you for this video. I had already noticed this problem, but you described it so much better than I could have, and now I have a great new term to use when talking about it.

[@shaneaf310]

She hulk was part of my first thoughts because it so easily the most memorable recent thing for me; for a good while I've been wondering if there is a writers equivalent of "main character syndrome". It heavily feels as if there is this weird expectation that viewers will love a character just because they're the main character, and then just portray a character which is at best has 0 draw, at worse is downright offensive to endure. She-hulk is pretty much my most favorite example of this, in part due to the wider context of the first episode or so; We're generally introduced to jen, who has some mock speech which is backed up by clap-girl who ends up throwing the overly sexist man out of the room; followed by more clap, to the backstory; in which she gets "infected", goes hulk rage, almost ends up killing a few dudes for their sexist commentary, followed by a "hey, look, I'm the hulk, but better!", and a general slap towards hulk fans who know the history of the hulk. Nowhere in there has anything been established as to why we should care about this character, nor have we grasped that this is a character who is likable (if anything, at every possible chance, she's done the exact opposite). The 4th wall breaks, which are supposed to be one of her magical skills which on several occasions felt so world shattering as it just felt like the writers were trying to use it as a means to air their complaints about the very thing that they're writing. Like, dennis is the weird standout character of the show; in part because I refuse to believe that such a man could walk around without having a perma blackeye, but, in the writers casting all of their aspersions on this singular character for the most part, you just end up with a character who is ironically funny in a "I can't believe this moron just said that" breaking kind of way. The character is just so unrealistic in a sense that it's actually comical how much hate they put onto this man who I refuse to believe could exist in the real world, unless this is the type of man Hollywood allows in its midst....

[@jts8053]

Clint is (was) my favorite MCU Avenger. He is the ordinary man in extraordinary circumstances. (I think this is even brought up in the Hawkeye show.) Renner is also the best actor of the original ensemble. I'd say Renner, Johannsen, then Ruffalo for talent top 3. RDJ was the best *cast*, but not the strongest actor.

[@dragonsword8129]

About that bar being set so low with Suicide Squad, I've watched James Gunn's THE Suicide Squad and thought it was actually pretty good. Most of my problems with it can be chalked up to the R-rating (even though I understand why it's like that). My main point is that if the Thunderbolts is trying to be like the suicide squad of Marvel, the bar's been raised since that first movie. Given how none of the characters who are on the team in the show were actually Thunderbolts in the comics, I'm not holding my breath.

[@Tyler_W]

Winter Soldier has led a team of Thunderbolts in the 2010s. He's led two different teams if I'm not mistaken, but my favorite one was when he was on a team with Punisher, Red Hulk, Agent Venom (Flash Thompson in a black ops military themed Venom suit), Elektra, and Ghost Rider. I don't think Yalena was technically a member of the Thunderbolts, but she has been in Thunderbolts stories, so she isn't completely put of place.

[@dragonsword8129]

@@Tyler_W Okay. I heard that Red Hulk could be in the show, so that’s something. Isn’t Yelena a villain in the comics?

[@gregowen2022]

I haven't gotten around to the new The Suicide Squad though I heard good stuff. I was about to say that Thunderbolts could be good because audiences love a rag tag group of misfits and anti-heroes. Guardians of the Galaxy shows it. But then I realized gotg and 2021 suicide squad were Gunn movies and he's gone now. Marvel got rid of real directors and it absolutely shows

[@lchatts1]

Steve was a friggin’ SUPER SOLDIER. Sam was a para rescue using kit that Starktech made. All the guys in his unit had the same rig, didn’t they? There’s nothing special about him really, as far as I can tell

[@Mate_Antal_Zoltan]

only thing special about him in that regard is that he was never killed in action, which implies that he's the best at using the wings

[@ignorethis214]

As I remember, Marvel was never the company for 'exhanging the mantle' until around 2013 or whenever with Fem-Thor and Miles. Dc was the one that would replace its Flashes and Green Lanturns all the time, and it was tied to the ideology of their characters. Dc characters were 'gods' to be looked up to and for people to aspire to be, it made sense that when a Flash died, someone would rise to take their place. Marvel was about the individual. It was about the person behind the costume, and how they would balance responsibilities beyond the norm, but when an x-man died, they didnt used to get replaced outside of a few exceptions (Thunderbird with his brother). Of course, its a blend of ideology and wanting royalties. You can't catch an audience because the company is in the toilet and even if you did wrote someone good, noone would read it? Just change the established character so you can make those royalties and hope that you get a movie deal. It's all been incredibly sad watching these characters I've grown up with in the comics just be absolutely ruined

[@curious5887]

Miles Morales is still a solid characters though, well, maybe the movie version😊

[@lancethefilmguy9392]

2015

[@Ardante11]

@@curious5887 Miles’s biggest flaws: - We’ve yet to see a original villain. He’s dependent all on Spider-Man’s villains. - He’s biracial, yet they’re heavy on his black-ness and not his other side. Sure they’ll throw something in here and there but for the most part he’s a straight up black kid and yes I’m black. - Too many cooks in the kitchen. Disney’s main goal is to try to take one “mantle” and create a hero based on that mantle for every demographic there is but this also waters down the uniqueness and rarity of the superhero power.

[@curious5887]

@@Ardante11 yeah, I say movie versions only, the comic one is terrible

[@spencerbibby5797]

Marvel has been doing mantle exchanges for a lot longer than that. Typically the original would take back their mantle after a couple years due to fans getting bored with the new character but there is a long history of it. Off the top of my head, Rhodey was Iron Man for a couple years in the 80s, John Walker became Captain America in the 80s, Eric Masterson replaced Thor in the late 80s, we had numerous people taking on the Ant-man/Giant-man/Goliath/Yellowjacket mantles over the years, and if you want to really go back a bit the Fantastic Four's Human Torch was picking up the mantle from the old WW2 era character.

[@zaecus]

Is it just me, or is this whole conversation being framed like the movies are all there is and completely ignoring that all of these changes, characters, and "transfers" already happened years ago in the comic books. None of this is stuff that Disney came up with on their own. They're following what the comic books did. An argument could be made that Disney had Marvel make the comic books first, but I've seen no evidence of it, much less that Alonso could have been, and was, the reason for it.

[@gregowen2022]

I'm definitely not a comics guy, but my understanding is that while these things have been done in the books, it's been just as poorly received. What baffles me is that the MCU has made it clear that it exists separately from the comics, so why would they continue to do things that aren't selling books? The only thing I have suspicions about Disney influencing the books is captain falcon america. He is a very old character and was debuted as cap just a couple years before infinity war and end game started production. Seems like a setup to justify the movie doing it, but maybe I'm just being cynical

[@Americanbadashh]

@@gregowen2022 Poorly received by incels, plenty of true believers loved those story lines in fact Marvel's comic sales have been at their highest point for several years now

[@Anme96]

@@Americanbadashhloool why are you lying

[@skeptical_aristotle]

I love Clint! And I don’t read the comics He’s just a morally grey family Man trying to do more good than bad despite his darker side trying to survive next to dozens of super powered goody two shoes who don’t always have the fortitude to exist in a necessary grey!

[@dasc0yne]

Clint vs. the rock guy from Thor? Since the rock guy is a stand-in for Taika Waititi I prefer Hawkeye hands-down.

[@Aristocles22]

Thank goodness a few characters are impossible to replace, mantle-wise. Groot and Rocket, for one, can't be replaced by someone else who just happens to have similar abilities.

[@jenniferhanses]

You know, that does explain where Sam's personality went. He was supposed to be a counselor for other veterans. That's how we met him. I was looking forward to seeing more of that and how he would connect with people and relate to them on a personal level. And we're not going to do any of that, apparently. She-Hulk misunderstands women, the law/how courts work even well enough to pass for a legal drama, and what the show should have been (aka a legal drama rather than an action flick. There were a bunch of us lined up to see superhero lawyers and hoping for Marvel Law & Order. Though it didn't even manage to be Matlock. ) Clint or Korg? Of course I like Clint more. I hate Korg. He's so annoying. I really wanted him to die. But I'd argue there's hope for Kate. Simply her desire to be Clint is something of a character. Clint sees himself as the least Avenger. Kate saw him as her hero. So there's that contrast where he's kind of beaten down and has a lower opinion of himself while she sees the possibilities and the good that a normal person can do. Consider Galaxy Quest and Alan Rickman's character's character. He has 1 fan. 1 fan who studied insanely hard to be him. That saw the benefit of that character. Kate is that fan to Hawkeye, and I don't have a problem with that. She's also not an insult to feminism thus far. It's a low bar, but it was worth mentioning. She and Yelena had great chemistry, and I'm hoping to see the two ladies together at some point in the future. I'm also actually excited for the Marvels after seeing a trailer. The first Captain Marvel movie was poorly written in a tell don't show style. I liked the one who was introduced in Wanda Vision. I have no interest in the Ms. Marvel TV show after the mess that was She-Hulk and hearing that she's a mutant now. But I think swapping them around via their powers provides a lot of challenging situations for them to solve as I don't think their powers are the same. So it's set up for showing maximum contrast between them. And that I would find interesting.

[@dontgiveinfo]

A couple of things here. They are technical. I hope this info goes far and wide. And ppl, share it with friends and marvel s(A)tans. Hard. IF you have time other than having a main focus on Jesus Captain America: took a super soldier serum. It upped his body to the next level, not just his strength, agility, stamina, recovery from stab/gun shot wounds, but his brain. He is able to make more advanced calculations on the fly. It's why he knows the amount of strength and power needed to make his shield bounce off walls. Too calculate if the material can take the force of a vibranium shield. To know the angles. This takes a fast brain. FALCON CAP does the same with the shield and HAS NO SUPER SOLDIER SERUM!! She-Hulk: Just cuz you are as powerful as the Hulk. Doesn't mean you know how to fight. Hulk just uses brute force. Jen is doing all these judo, fighting styles. THAT SHE NEVER LEARNED! Female Hawkeye: This is the worse. Clint is like not only a shield agent, but he's the top 5%, like a pro ball player. He's a super star in what he does. You mean to tell me. Someone with college level archery, no training fighting skills or acrobatic skills, no killer instincts, no years of grueling assassination training can compete with a man that took on cartels, yakuzu and other gang types. She can match that? GTFO of here man!

[@danielmejorado6098]

I agree with several of the points you highlighted. But wasn't there a montages of Kate Bishop doing all kinds of training? Gymnastics, fencing, archery, some form of martial arts( might have been jujitsu)? Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but didn't they show a james bond style silhouette of her winning medals in various athletic competitions?

[@darkhighwayman1757]

@@danielmejorado6098 maybe but that would still be a college sophore playing basketball going up against Jordan or Kobe in their primes.

[@MassielRoss]

Maybe I'm remembering wrong but isn't kate a black belt in martial arts and a archery champion? I swear they said that in the show

[@dontgiveinfo]

@@danielmejorado6098 yes, but those they didn't train her to be an assassin, she was never taught to be trained to kill, being in athletic competitions is top 10% of humanity. But the pros are top 1%. Then even in that there is a handful of off the wall pros like a Mariano Rivera or a Jordan. Clint and Natasha have that next level training. Kat being spunky is not that

[@dontgiveinfo]

@@MassielRoss dude. LEt's be real. Being in high school black belt, even in if you are world champion martial artist. it don't mean ish. Do you know what that means? these ppl fight under rules that don't work to fight grown mercenary men. Archery champion? she's not Hawkeye level. Being in the archery olympics doesn't mean crap

[@LW1Tok]

Clint is an amazing character. Him and Natasha. There was so much story with the two that we could've explored. But they f*cked it up. A spy thriller type of movie with the two of them would've been bonkers good. Sadly we will never see something like that now.

[@gibster9624]

Meanwhile Miles Morales is just sitting there as the shining example of how to "race swap," a character. They legit created a brand new character that they went out of their way to highlight how different his story was going to be right off the jump when he's bitten by the spider instead of reacting in pain he instead just swats it like a fly.

[@MegaMilenche]

A real gangsta, huh?

[@RIMESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS]

These replacements are done out of malice for white people, don't fucking admire it.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

That was a strange situation though. For awhile Marvel had two publishing lines (regularl) Marvel and Ultimate Marvel. The Ultimate Marvel universe featured many of the same characters as (regular) Marvel but they were all treated as newly introduced so the writers could take them in different directions. Eventually Peter Parker died in the Ultimate Marvel universe which allowed Miles Morales to assume the name in that universe. In _Secret Wars_ Marvel merged the (normal) Marvel and Ultimate Marvel universes and that's how Miles Morales and Peter Parker came to both be Spider-Man. Another thing is that there were a lot of Miles Morales stories published which gave them time to flesh out the character and make him memorable. As they did with all the other legacy characters they just imported him directly into the movies. Almost all the new MCU characters haven't been used enough to allow the creators to really nail them down. We know how to write a good Steve Rogers or Miles Morales. What does a good Ironheart look like? We don't know because we've never really seen one.

[@RIMESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS]

@@BiggieTrismegistus who cares? They jumped at the chance for black spiderman, they'd make every fucking superhero non white if they could, it would just be too obvious to do it all at once. You'll wake up one day with every hero being non white and every villain being white and the whole world acting as if that's how it is in reality.

[@no.1spidey-fan182]

Um...it took them 7 years to do that spiderverse retcon. Miles was version much just Peter but with all the superificial differences turned on his head😂. Even to this day he still soesnt have his own depth as a character and its just sad😭

[@brigandboy1425]

Well, as you said, the thing about Clint Barton is that he *IS* a well done character. He doesn't have his own movie. He doesn't need it. We know Clint is a father. We know he is a professional. We know he has had a hard past, and we know he saved the life of Natasha Romanoff (and she saved him, long before their characters were on screen for us to see). We know he's a fantastic shot with a bow, to the point of his talent making him able to stand toe-to-toe with super beings like Loki and Thor. We know that he can forgive enemies, and even seems to be a good judge of character (if you assume everything after Endgames is complete horseshit and fanfiction. Otherwise, *BOY* did he misjudge Wanda Maximoff). The movies showed us he cared about his family enough to setup a safe place for them, cared about his work enough to risk his own life and leave them on crazy adventures, cared about humans in general enough to risk his own life *AND* try and redeem people he had a strong disliking for (Wanda's brother, for instance). Clint might be the "least" of the Avengers as far as super powers go, but Clint was the human, character-driven heart of the team in his own way. He is a thousand times more interesting and impactful than the rock person. Taika's self-insert is... well, we know he's quirky. We know he's funny sometimes. We know he likes to live with Thor and play videogames. That's about it. You argument clearly shows why that poll ended up the way it did. Clint is a good character; Taika's character is just a mantle.

[@bowtie2232]

10:32 My favorite marvel superhero is Clint Barton...🥲 But honestly, I think all of the replacements suck, I especially can’t stand kate or yelena. Those two are probably my least favorite fictional characters. They're even worse than daisy johnson in my opinion. Besides, kate, ms marvel, and chavez are literally the same character.

[@macmcleod1188]

I could have liked yelana. But she was inserted into black widow's movie as an obvious replacement. And yelana started on third base with a head start to home late. She should have lost handily fighting black Widow. She had no room for growth and I dislike the character. I won't go to watch her.

[@gregowen2022]

They are going in hard for the teenage hero thing and I don't see it working. Having one kid in Peter Parker was fun, but we still want a team full of adults who know what they're doing

[@bowtie2232]

@@gregowen2022 Agreed. I can’t really see how the new "avengers" would even work either. They don't really work as characters, let alone as a team. The new team has: - Sam, whose whole personality now is based on his skin color (poor Sam). - jen, who seems to hate men, or something. - kate, chavez & kamala, who are literally the same character. - yelena, who's a hypocrite, and it seems like she doesn’t even want to be an avenger. - cassie, who acts like the flag smashers from falcon and the winter soldier. - and riri & shuri, but I really don't know what those two are like. They too seem to be pretty similar though.

[@lojjy6826]

You should’ve talked about how Sam Wilson was a great character as well as Steve Roger’s. They didn’t assassinate captain America, they also assassinated Falcon.

[@Goldnfoxx]

_They know something's wrong, but they don't know what._ The entire MCU fanbase, in unison: *Tells them to stop the woke crap and tokenized characters. Marvel: No, that's not it... The fanbase: No, really. We tried telling the actual comic book part of this industry this for years, and now it's on the brink of death. Marvel: It's racism!

[@roslolian11]

Female Hawkeye was actually good for me because she didn't replace Hawkeye, they were working side by side and had a mentor/protege relationship kinda like Ironman and Spidey or Miles Morales and Peter Parker. The rest purely mantle method characters.

[@mikewaterfield3599]

Anyone else remember why Steve Rodgers was picked in the first place? He jumped on what he thought was a live grenade with no hesitation.

[@le_fancy_squid]

The funniest thing is that Marvel literally took premade characters and sold them to us. Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, these weren't original character ideas lol...but they knew how to make them into something new, fun, and interesting to watch. Just...like just keep doing that Marvel, why is that so hard?

[@lodrezzon]

It's Bud Light, the superhero comic. Same superpower (beer), just in new, unattractive or offensive packaging ( She-Hulk and all those other girls I never to bothered to learn their names...).

[@Shadi092986]

Marvel's "mantle" obsession aside, the actors for Kate Bishop, America Chavez and Kamala Khan are still fairly likable, because most of them still act as the inexperienced rookies who look up to a mentor figure. Hailee's rapport with Renner is basically the same like in her movie Edge of Seventeen. I'll go with the minority who didn't like Yelena's quippy MCU version instead of the Bond-style Russian agent. I honestly dread that these actors would eventually be held hostage by Disney to spout their progressive soapbox like how they did with Letitia Wright, or someone who are insufferable in social media like Brie or Simu.

[@gregowen2022]

I'll grant that they are likable, but I think they went too heavy on the inexperienced kid thing. It worked with Parker, because he was the only inexperienced idiot in the room. The adults were still handling things. I don't know if audiences are going to respond wel to a team made of sarcastic kids.

[@MarcioSilva-vf5wk]

Guardian 3 was a very good example in how to replace beloved characters

[@LegendaryDorkKnight]

Clint actually IS my favorite Avenger, but I always typically like the normal human characters facing supernatural odds. I don't fantasize about being a superhero. I fantasize about doing something extraordinary while being a normal guy.

[@GuiltlessGear]

Also, i like your general vibe. you're telling things like they are, and seem capable of calling out the progressive left agenda without also making me constantly wonder if im being recruited into the alt-right. That shit ain't easy, and i hope your channel continues to grow.

[@StratumPress]

There's no such thing as the "alt-right". It's a phantom boogeyman invented by internet weirdos.

[@bumface1810]

What’s wrong with the alt right? Don’t let the MSM tell you what’s good and bad.

[@mr.voidout4739]

Facts. I had just subbed a min ago with similar sentiment lol.

[@gregowen2022]

I appreciate you guys. It's a relief to know there's an audience for videos that aren't just angry. Thanks!

[@johnathancasanova6956]

My issue with Falcon is how he was able to wield the shield like Steve, but Steve had the super soldier serum which gave him the strength to wield it the way he did. Spiderman was able to wield it because he had super strength. The shield is made with vibranuim and is supposed to be heavy. In the comics it made sense because Falcon got the super soldier serum but, in the movies, he's a regular guy with no superpowers whatsoever. And the mantle of Captain America should have gone to Bucky in my opinion. I know Bucky is still hated by the world, but it would have been a good character arc for Bucky to find redemption by following a higher calling and protecting people to unwrite his wrongs. It would have had a better story line. That's just my opinion though.

[@Frawst_]

Actually vibranium (at least in the MCU) is stated to a a third of the weight of steel, I'm paraphrasing but it's somewhere along those lines But even so I do agree throwing it around like cap shouldn't be possible for falcon

[@johnathancasanova6956]

@@Frawst_ I actually never knew that. Thanks for that info and yeah at the very least they should have done a story line where Falcon gets the super soldier serum. They could have used that plot line to connect it to the Thunderbolts movie with the weapon X program. It would have tied in perfectly.

[@thiefthearcher9907]

Hawkeye had some good quips, just got overshadowed by Iron Man and Captain America. Age of Ultron and Civil War was a pretty good showing of it. Plus, there’s only so much an archer can do, unless they give him obscenely powerful arrows to use.

[@andrewdowns3673]

Clint may not be my favorite Avenger, but he's still a great character. You talk about the powers not being the thing people liked about the characters but it being the character themselves, but when it comes to Clint you're like, "He's just a guy with a bow and arrow up against a god, a raging minster, and a guy with a nuclear reactor on his chest. He's so lame." Pick a side.

[@Foggfjw]

I think the mantle giving had to happen due to contracts. It got pretty expensive. Yes the movies by themselves were bad.But they had to change something after endgame. Taking some risks,scaling everything down again to start a new arc. I would have loved a james bond style blac k widow movie. Some deeper movies, joker showed i can work, to set up characters. But at a company at this size it's hard to take gambles.

[@antonioyeats2149]

There's a difference in playing it safe, and willfully and knowingly producing crap. Only to turn around and market it like it's some sort of revolutionary thing. I think the main reason Disney leaned so hard into the whole empowerment and political posturing was because they thought if they married mainstream hocum with the good names of both mcu and Disney itself, there would be less pressure on their content to ACTUALLY be qaulity. time is certainly telling a story that was not a great move though which is honestly a surprise to me.

[@gregowen2022]

I think the big mistake was trying to recast the same characters. A lot of people are calling for the Xmen, and I think that was the right call, not Avengers 2.0

[@TheKPhillip]

The other issue with the new characters is that none of them have the sort of moral formation that the original three had - or even that Star Lord, Doctor Strange, and Black Panther had. They are cardboard cut outs, and then on top of that they are written like villains (arrogant, selfish, overconfident)

[@DavidMartinez-ce3lp]

I don't see how they can really fix the problem. Phase 4 laid out a crappy foundation that will be used going forward for the next 2-3 phases. Introduced crappy characters that I don't care about. And a main villain of the saga that isn't all that menacing. It's like the opposite of the first 3 phases.

[@leyenda6149]

An issue with Anthony Mackie is that even though he is a good actor, as Cap men don't want to be him and women don't want to schpoink him. That may sound crass but those can be important qualities for a male action lead actor. Female replacements for legacy characters have the reverse problem. Then you've got ScarJo who's final Black Widow appearance was stripped of literally all visual sexual appeal and her replacement was just a neutral. With no vicarious relationship with the audience or would-be movie goers, where's the WIFM to entice butts in seats?