Grima: A Comprehensive Analysis [Fire Emblem Echoes and Awakening]

going from criticizing FE4 to praising awakening, i must have a death wish or something.
follow me if you like shitty memes: / zerkmhunter
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[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

i'm sorry i just can't bring myself to hate awakening, honestly, IS, just... port awak in stead of fats on the switcho.

[@cynicismIncarnate]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Both cases of 14 being ported has been confirmed fake. If 13 did ported, hopefully they add more and fix a lot of the issues.

[@sizzle5775]

Prince Kazuya But how do you fix a story without changing it overall.

[@idkwhattocallthisaccount9660]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 If they kind of redo it it could easily be one of my favorite FE games. Make pair up an optional thing and implement Grima's new background/more fixes to the story and it could be great

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Mr. Sizzle you add the forneus stuff, and add 5 chapters to each arc explaining shit and developing villains.

[@lordtullus9942]

I can;t hate awakening either. Some parts of it, sure! Some characters, *Definitely*. But there's always the fact that the devs put a ton of love and care into the game. The story was kinda meh at times and the gameplay was too broken for it's own good, but it still had the core ideology that went into every FE game prior. It's FE dammit! GIMME DA DRAGONZ

[@Percevalko]

Tfw you make a generic villain for your game because it is supposed to be the last one in its series but it actually doesn't get cancelled and you expand that villain 2 games later

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

and that villain then becomes really interesting.

[@lpfan4491]

i only wish they explained it in fe14 instead

[@Nikita_Akashya]

But Fates plays 5 Millenia before Awakening. And Grima didn't exist, so it would have been hard to do so.

[@Percevalko]

Nikita Akashya how do you know that fates played 5 millenia before awakening?

[@Nikita_Akashya]

I read it somewhere?

[@grima3156]

*_I AM THE WINGS OF DESPAIR. I AM THE BREATH OF RUIN. I AM THE FELL DRAGON, GRIMA._*

[@grima3156]

Fire Emblem 2018: The Grimleal Strikes Back

[@D.Dragon]

You mean you're Forneus, right? Retconning is such a wonderful thing. Or is this just a phase. I imagine a dragon would go through many phases.

[@mikeschmidt2526]

*pat grima* yeah yeah. I know. =3=

[@evanex3972]

One thing:falchion

[@roaringthunder115]

ONE OF US

[@lingisaperson4499]

I wish that Grima's story was incorporated more into Awakening. However, I am glad that they made his entity more three dimensional. Great job Zerk!

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

thanks! glad you enjoyed!

[@mickledatpickle7346]

GoldPandasGame They probably didn't think about it as Awakening was supposed to be the last game.

[@TrueLadyEvilChan]

What if the Switch FE game focuses even more on Forneus? :O

[@andrewvincent7299]

Robin Grimahood While I would absolutely love another game in Archanea/Ylisse, I'm not sure IS would set another game in that world. There are six games that take place there. Would they really do a seventh? I sure as hell know the toxic FE fanbase would bitch endlessly if they did.

[@roguegirl29]

@@andrewvincent7299 Maybe a remake of Awakening with the story revamped to include Grima's background? I love Awakening as well but even I couldn't ignore that huge gap. It made Grima seem TOO one dimensional, like a cardboard cut out of a villain.

[@manuelcamara6400]

Honestly the whole Thebes labyrinth story-line left me wanting more in a good way. I hope this gets touched upon some other time in FE.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

agreed, as i said, it's the same subtle kind of lore based storytelling as bloodborne and dark souls.

[@destoroyar6856]

Manuel Camara It's a very interesting story and has a great potential to be exploded. But i won't gonna go to that damn hole again... gods it was a massacre 😨.

[@bretginn1419]

Nicolas Poriau Admittedly, I'd love a sci-fi FE. And a cyber dragon. A cyber clockwork dragon. Mmmmmm....clocks....

[@snivy400]

Grima is essentially the mewtwo of fire emblem

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

yeah, lol.

[@ivanbluecool]

otts486 so if grima is mewtwo. Robin is grima. Would Morgan be mew as the sweet little organic one

[@snivy400]

ivanbluecool probably I dunno

[@ivanbluecool]

Plus both of them can use almost every class in the game. Like mew and mewtwo with tms

[@alexandrahulett5742]

otts486 lol

[@Scazura]

Grima always did seem kind of badass to me, especially with his design. You'd bet I was surprised when I saw him in Echoes. I feel like too many people bash on Grima, but only now after Echoes have more seen the potential within him. Not saying awakening did a good job with him, but Grima is one of my personal favorites because of the theories that were brought on him. But having Echoes solidify Grima as an evil entity was the best add-on I could ask for to fix Awakening's plot.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

agreed.

[@jsc1jake512]

Grima felt like a kind of looming threat throughout Awakening's storyline. He felt ever-present and yet he never shows up until the very end. If I had to change anything about Awakening's storyline, it'd probably be to have Validar have more of a role in Act 1 (pre-timeskip) in order to set up more for the next two acts. Maybe even add more foreshadowing and explanation for Walhart's actions in Act 2, he was trying to unite humanity in order to end war and GRIMA HIMSELF. There was also a side-villain in Act 2, a Valmese tactician who they set up and didn't really do much with. He could've survived and fled to Plegia, but he gets killed off instead. I'm not saying Awakening's story is bad, but it definitely had more potential than it was given. Awakening was actually my first FE so even though the story is flawed, I loved it even if it's weaker compared to other FE games' stories.

[@0axis771]

I shall now give you new things from the Valentian Accordion. Marvel at it and be amazed: The Creation At last, blood from a divine dragon! Although it took some time to cross that dangerous bridge, at least it wasn't a folly. Now I have the real thing. Even just looking at it, the blood, its power is terrifying. Beautiful. After mixing the divine dragon blood with human fluids, certain herbs and nectar, I sealed the concoction in a vial and observed it for 40 days. New life had been born. At first, it was a tiny thing, the size of a thumbnail. Looking at it, it looked no different than a human fetus, but without a doubt, it was a new life form that had the blood of the gods. I carefully decided to watch over the growth of this new life form. I kept it at the temperature of a horse's womb and, each day, I gave it my blood. On the 80th day, its humanoid shape gradually started to disappear. Eyes appeared, its neck grew and I could see a tail growing from its behind. Slowly and slowly, it began to take the shape of a dragon. However, it was an unusually-shaped dragon, not at all like a divine dragon. Its six eyes seemed to be smiling at me from inside the vial. Does it possess consciousness? Is it I that it's smiling at? I think I have created something truly tremendous. Even though it is now as big as a puppy, it shows glimpses of a terrifying power. I have yet to find a solution to control its rampage when it becomes an adult. Its voice echoes in my head; I feel like I can see inside of it. Within it, I can see dark thoughts, Violent thoughts. It makes me tremble from my heart. At the same time, I feel like it can look inside me. As it stares at the trembling me, it smiles re-assuredly. "That thing has become a dangerous existence that nobody can control. It pains me, but I have decided to destroy it with my own hands." (The account comes to an abrupt end.) --- The Death Masks The critical component in the death mask is a particular shelled insect, born accidentally during an experiment to create artificial life. It is as big as a thumb and resembles a shellfish. I have come to call these marvels of nature thanatophages. Placed on a cadaver, shockingly, thanatophages set down roots and assert control by means of internal parasitism, and are capable of moving the body. By embedding the thanatophages so they live on the reverse side of the mask, the death mask is born. When there is no bait, the thanatophages inside the mask sleep like a stone. When placed on a person and given the proper stimulus, they can erode the host body and freely control them within 2 nights. Some kind of preservation fluid is ejected from the thanatophages' roots, which suppresses the host's decay; it appears that they can be preserved for a long time. It also seems like the body muscles are toughened compared to before death. Thanatophages feast on the flesh of the host, but it seems they like to move the host to hunt for prey and take in nutrition that way. The masks exist to tell the thanatophages that their will is mine, to control them. The shape and design of the mask is based on the face of my deceased wife. Since the cadaver can move. Then, what would happen if they were placed on a living human... it is interesting to think about. Thanks to the senate, I have many cadavers at my disposal. I can create an army of masks. They are faithful and only listen to my orders. Some may call them hideous, but to me, they are my adorable pets. --- A Mage's Account While at Forneus's workshop, I watched him study a moving corpse. It was too much for me; I fled in fear. The man was insane. I ponder if his research trespassed the grace of the gods. If he were left unattended, would he bring calamity to this city? Oftentimes, one can hear a terrifying voice from behind the sealed door. Like a baby, but like a monster... Although Forneus committed a great sin, he must have been trying to create a god. I think his insanity started ever since he lost his beloved wife. --- The Senate's Account In Thabes, lived an alchemist named Forneus, proclaimed for his genius. At the beginning, he was marveled. In time, he would be feared by all. In the deepest part of Thabes, Forneus's workshop can be found. Two matters consumed Forneus, and he spent his life in their pursuit. The first was how to mobilise the dead and control them as his army. The second was the creation of a singular, perfect being. At one time or another, there were rumours of people mysteriously disappearing near the vicinity of Forneus's workshop. We senators urged Forneus to come forth for discussion, and we repeatedly sent missives, but he refused to respond. Eventually, soldiers were dispatched to Forneus. They were strong soldiers who ranked among the best in Thabes. Not one of them returned. Finally, the Thabes Council chose to seal Forneus's workshop with him inside it, deep within the underground; the path to the workshop was permanently sealed with the Sage's Shield. The seal they used was made to last until the city crumbled to sand. That way, none shall disturb the demon alchemist Forneus.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Axis AAAAAAAHHHHH SO GOOD.

[@0axis771]

I know, right?! There's also a Valentian Revelations that confirms that Thabes was an advanced civilization made by humans with the knowledge bestowed to them by dragons, but Duma saw the people of Thabes as a threat because they grew too powerful, so his forces attacked and destroyed the city in 3 days, with some survivors scattering. This is what led Duma and Naga to clash and then Duma being banished. Also, wow. So the Risen masks all look like Forneus's wife? And Grima's second face that resembles a human also makes sense. It's Grima's actual face when he was a mere homunculus.

[@spritelady4669]

The part about the masks is fucking HORRIFIC. Parasitic mask bugs that control human corpses that their creator refers to as """pets"""? Holy shit Nintendo, how the hell did this game get a regular ol' T for teen rating?

[@darc5925]

Reading this while listening to the Ithavoll upper floors music from Bayonetta makes the experience better in my opinion

[@fivestarguy100]

Yo, this is so fucking good. I love this. I enjoyed the lore Thabes provided the series and to have it in a complete form right here is top quality. This just makes me want a game about Forneus even more now.

[@UnlimitedMrX]

Rewatching this, now that Grima is in Heroes. Add in the few quotes he himself has in Heroes, specifically his confession, which I will quote below, adds a bit of a human quality to the character. Frankly, I find it quite awesome in it's own right how much Grima is fleshed out in supplementary material. Confession "You are a curious one... You willingly come to chat with me? The fell dragon? Alone? You know full well how I detest humans. They have no qualms asking for divine assistance when it meets their fickle needs... But how quick they are to shun their benefactors once they get what they desire. They become arrogant and make the same mistakes repeatedly, incapable of learning the folly of their ways. They claim their actions are for the good of others, but that's merely a show of self-indulgence. Humans are selfish. And the ugliness of mankind has turned me repulsive. It's the world that wants me to be evil. And yet you claim to need me here? Enough of your lies, worm. How dare you look at me with such a gaze. Do not dare pity me!" It's not the most complex mindset, sure, but it does prove that he does realize he is a product of the world that created him, and does have a legitimate reason for his hatred against humanity (not unlike other gods in fiction).

[@dhisufiroafrozenseraphimdragon]

Jakkun Yeah you're right.

[@geenobe9941]

Kinda sounds like Zephiel tbh. Mens greed making someone Repulsive. probably just me though.

[@gottesurteil3201]

The way he talks in heroes you almost get the feeling that he is only trying to do what he feels humanity TRULY wants. As if the evil he does is the secret wish of all mankind.

[@logicseeker3770]

I don't think Heroes portrayal of Grima is very accurate, because of how inconsistent it is with what we've been shown in Awakening and Echoes. For example, Echoes talked about how Grima had "dark" and "violent" thoughts, even while he was basically a baby and hadn't even come in contact with any humans, outside of his creator. So Grima is violent and evil by nature, but Heroes seems to go against that and insist that it's because of humanity's influence. Heroes Grima also claims that humans are selfish and turn their backs on their benefactors, but in Awakening, Grima's worshipers sacrificed themselves to be nourishment for Grima, even though Grima has never given them anything. But I don't think Heroes Grima is meant to be consistent. I think Heroes made Grima more sympathetic, because they know that 90% of fans love a villain that they can sympathize with. And judging by how many people love Heroes Grima, I'd say they made the right call.

[@VictorHaleNX]

logic seeker you also have to account for the fact that forneus creates grima to be evil. Maybe somewhere in his heart he wanted something else. Take grima’s origin for example: Divine dragon blood. There have been stories where THAT kind of blood can taint an evil mans heart. Heroes depicts this as if the divine dragon blood inside him, is rebelling against his pre-created evil heart. It could be that all this time deep in his mind and heart, if he had NO MEMORIES or was brought up differently, #awakening, then we can see his good side. That’s what robin was all about. Robins father used Grima’s Truth, and in doing so fell victim to the evil his heart. However when you consider that awakening was kinda rush, you can see why they left this out....plus marketing . #NeverForgetFates

[@thewerdna]

You know, I actually have feeling that all this Grima backstory stuff might actually be setup for IS eventually making a game telling the story for the First Exalt. I mean, there's a lot of interesting story that could be told here, even ignoring the whole first time Grima is sealed away. We have both Valm (as Valentia apparently had its name changed by Alm's son eldest son after he took the throne following Alm dying of old age) and Archanea fracturing into smaller kingdoms due to what is hinted to have been a period of great upheaval and infighting. This could be such a cool plot to follow, with the protagonist being the current Prince of Archanea during this time period, who would eventually go on to seal Grima and found Ylisse as the First Exalt

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

TheWerdna it's quite possible

[@0axis771]

Werdna and I even considered making a fanfic project of it, complete with actual character designs and whatnot. XD But with the Fire Emblem Switch coming out next year, we're waiting on the new info regarding it. For all we know, it is the story of the First Exalt.

[@andrewvincent7299]

I would LOVE that! God I hope it happens. But would IS really make a seventh game in Archanea/Ylisse? The toxic FE fanbase would probably bitch endlessly about it. But I think Archanea/Ylisse has the most history behind it being that it did have seven games taking place in it. They should keep most of the series in that world as Shozo Kaga wanted.

[@MasterLee2011]

To be honest I rather we move away from awakening and fates and come up with a new story in the next FE game.

[@superatario3007]

I feel like they could make a game for the first exalt and that story. We'd get a full story of Grima's rise and fall.

[@burningdog2324]

It's sad to say that Grima, WHO HAD AN ENTIRE GAME TO HIMSELF, has more lore in his cameo in echoes than in 20+ hours of gameplay in awakening. I don't know if i like awakening more because of the new lore, or dislike it more because there's more lore in a cameo.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

yeah it's kinda sad, at least it's something tho.

[@GintaPPE1000]

I mean, they made Grima only as a generic bad guy, what do you expect? The story of Awakening is poor, but any appealing aspect of it wouldn't come from the plot when "kill bad dragon(s)" is a plot already made into a cliche long before Awakening by previous FE titles. Really, the only notable thing about the game's story is the characters.

[@grindersongear759]

From how it all comes together it almost feels like echoes should had came out first and then Awakening being it sequel

[@Asuna35]

It's probably because they thought Awakening was the last game they were going to make.

[@yera2589]

It (Grima) has even more lore in Heroes than in Awakening LOL

[@diortememirp6204]

Worth noting that the Dragon Blood part is significant too, not just because of Duma, but also because of what other Divine Dragons have done; Naga literally pulled out one of their own fangs and made a dragon-slaying sword stronger than what most mortals would create for millennia. Divine Dragons have all the powers of other dragons, as shown by Tiki and Nagi from Marth's games being able to use the Dragonstones of other species of Dragons. In the context of Jugdral, Naga also created an intensely powerful magical bloodline, similar to what Grima did with Forneus, even. Speaking of Forneus, his last entry is interesting, because in the game, it's cut off; it says "Its voice echoes in my head, dark thoughts, violent tho-" and then in the next room is Grima. Lends to the creepy atmosphere, too. Oh, and I'm a fan of the Archanean timeline, and this actually does something for me other than Awakening's stuff; it gives more life to Thabes itself. For context, in Marth's games, Thabes is just outside of Khadein, the magical capital of Archanea, and is established as it is here; a long-lost kingdom of immense magical power. In Marth's games, it's used as the setting for Marth's duel against Gharnef, an evil Sorcerer corrupted by the Darksphere (which, incidentally, is one of the gems in the shield of seals). He wields a magic made from it that's so powerful only a spell made from another gem (Starlight), could harm him; Marth having fought him because Gharnef killed the king of Altea and stole Falchion. Gharnef's also shown to use some of the magical apparatus found in Thabes to amplify his own power (he creates fakes of himself that completely fool Marth and the others). I bring this up because no one in Marth's games really knows what's in Thabes other than what Gharnef shows off; any secrets the former city had beyond that are left up to the imagination, and Thabes also isn't actually interacted with much. So not only does Gharnef's presence confirm this city had some extreme power, the fact that it was hiding a being of apocalyptic power like Grima blows my mind, and the Labyrinth even gives one an idea of how big Thabes was. For example, it had its own council of several people, every room in Thabes was part of the city in some capacity, they had teams of messengers and it had so many troops that they sent a small regiment to deal with one man. To me, it's on the tier of Begnion from the Tellius games in terms of scale, based on the info given. Grima's story just adds to this air of mystique that's been around Thabes for so long, and gives it life. Really, the Thabes Labyrinth ties so much of FE's lore together that I can't help but love it; it works incredibly well.

[@rainbowcats4284]

I completely agree.

[@victorhale]

What’s even more crazy is that if you look up Making of Path Of Radiance, the original country that Ike resided in was Babylonian Empire, Thabes. If that doesn’t give a massive depiction of how big Thabes was then idk what does

[@thebravegallade731]

Thanks pretty much ties up every game in archenaia/Valenti's together

[@robby6382]

I wonder if Kaga Is willing to accept this information into basically the cannon he spearheaded

[@WeeG-bwc77]

I think it outs that Awakening took QUITE A BIT of things from FE4. More than just the pairing and child systems, they took similar story-lines too, made some similar characters etc.

[@ShadowVincent3]

I'm with you there. I can't hate Awakening. I can acknowledge its flaws, but I can't hate it. I honestly feel the reason for Awakening's story ending up the way it did was because of the notion it was to be the last game. I read that during development, the developers wanted to include as much as they could, leaving no idea unconsidered, so that if it were to be the last game, they could say they tried everything. You see this in the story's presentation. It feels like 3 stories cobbled together, almost like there were several ideas and they didn't have time to iron out all the issues. I think the pressure of this being the "last" game compromised the otherwise good story, especially the future story line. It's this reason that honestly, if a remake of Awakening were made (not now of course, far down the line) I would be glad, because it could (hopefully) iron out the kinks and make the game as great as it should have been.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

absoulutely, i think after FE6, and 4 get remade (the 2 that need it the most) awakening HD is very possible, if not likely.

[@thewerdna]

I completely agree with this. Unlike Fates, which is an absolute mess in the story department, Awakening has a great story buried somewhere in there. The problem is that the game just failed to explore any of the interesting ideas it had or really flesh things out, glossing over them instead. If remade, the game's story could be great simply with extra time and content to really explore what's going on. But I mean, let's be real here, Grima is basically the only Fire Emblem villain who essentially won. There literally was no way he could be defeated in his own timeline. He could have simply let Lucina go back in time and remained in his timeline, but he made the mistake of trying to ensure he won in all possible futures and as a result lost due to his own arrogance.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

TheWerdna most definitely. He's kinda the FE equivalent of Pucci in that sense. Awakening would benefit from having about 10 extra chapters spread out across the game.

[@thewerdna]

Yeah. Maybe 1-2 more chapters in the Gangral arc (since it was the arc with the best pacing), another 3-5 chapters in the Valm arc. and another 4-6 chapters in the Grima arc.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

exactly.

[@Juan-zs6jt]

Manfroy won in Gen 1. He got rid of Sigurd, made his Loptyr vessel, and wrecked havoc in Jugdral (until his own stupidity got him and Julius killed). Travant also won in Gen 1, he killed Quan and conquered Lenster (until Bloom ruined it).

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Juan776 Manfroy however won only in the beginning, he fell in the end.

[@vagrant2863]

Senators: Hey Forneus could you maybe stop? Forneus: DAGA KOTOWARU!

[@GeorgeKinsill]

I really think that Echoes does a great job overall in making Awakening a better game. First of all, it adds a historical context for Valm and the influence that Alm had on the continent, especially on Walhart. At first I thought Walhart's motivations pretty generic and due to pride, akin to Lucifer. Instead, Echoes reveals how relying on the gods Duma and Mila nearly brought complete ruin upon the continent due to their madness, and even before then, led to a slow corruption of nations. The painful war by King Alm and Queen Celica and eventual reconstruction demonstrated the cost in dealing with the gods, along with how it is possible, even beneficial, to strike it on your own. To rely on gods is to stunt one's own future. Given all of this, Walhart appears inspired by the legends of Valentia, and sought to save the world from the dependency on gods in Archanea. Secondly, it makes the continent of Valm a lot more interesting. The Mila Tree where we find Tiki has a whole new level of significance, being the resting place of Mila. The volcano as the resting place of Duma likewise makes the battle against Yen'Fay far more significant, especially as Say'ri essentially commits the same unintentional murder of a family member as Alm did with Rudolf. Finally, Grima is made far more horrifying. He is the sum of the worst aspects of all life, in the form of insect, dragon and men. The thanatophages that granted him and the risen life are inherently parasitic, really showing how corrupting the nature of Grima is. It's also nice to see how Grima grew over the millennia and how he learned to deal with pesky heroes. In the Thabes Labyrinth, he was closed in darkness and knew only the mad ambition of Forneous. Once Alm came, he unleashed his wrath, but ultimately succumbed to Falchion. Alm, not knowing any better, released true evil unto the world, where Grima sought the worst aspects of man and embraced the madness within his own divine dragon blood. After two more defeats, Grima learns enough about the bearers of Naga's blood to take over the world, overthrown only because he doesn't truly understand the multi-verse and time travel. This also makes the decision to let Chrom strike down Grima a lot more selfish; given how Grima appears to learn and correct for his mistakes, the next time he awoke he would have truly been unstoppable. In any case, the lore added by Act 6 is actually enough to make me want to replay Awakening. It is hardly perfect, but Echoes added a lot more depth and decent lore.

[@Big-Chungus21]

I know this comment is 6 years old but… not killing Grima in Awakening seems like the worst possible thing you could do. I didnt know Robin would survive it anyways, but I chose to kill Grima because its the only chance there ever would be for such a thing to happen.

[@ShadeandmyShadow]

Didn't Male Morgan also have a fascination for bugs. If Awakening ever gets remade it wouldn't be surprise me if in the sibling conversation between Lucina and ____ it gets retconned that the bug Chrom kills is in fact a Thanatophage from a recently defeated Risen.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

that'd be neat.

[@JR384]

Definitely, it was a spider or something in the Morgan/Lucina Siblings, so maybe the support conversation is enhanced to have Chrom kill it, and when Morgan and Lucina are talking afterwards, Morgan brings out an old book, flipping it open to a page about what he thinks he saw - which is the Thanatophage.

[@GintaPPE1000]

Lucina's sibling squawks about how that thing could fly, so it probably wasn't a spider (arachnids are all characterized by a lack of wings). I think it was explicitly mentioned as some sort of roach, but then again since none of them have seen a Thanatophage before, it's easy to pass that off as just misidentification. It's also worth noting that actual cockroaches can't fly for more than a brief period of time, and that, in Morgan's case specifically, it's the only known exception to his fascination with insects. Retconning that thing into a Thanatophage is all but set and done as far as I'm concerned.

[@JR384]

Well, flying spiders do exist irl, so it wouldn't be hard to put them in the fantasy world of Awakening. So yeah, if it's further described that a Thanatophage can fly for even just a few seconds, then we have an able retcon that can happen.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

I think if anything the connection to scarab beetles will be the one used. Thabes already has a boatload of Egyptian symbolism, it would be more surprising if it wasn't a scarab.

[@LuckyTheReviewer]

Man Grima is starting to become cool. Make you want Nintendo to redo Awakening to make Grima more prevalent rather than a looming threat. I do hope they make a game based around Grima being the main villain because lets be honest here with how he is now he is much more threatening than he was when Awakening first launched. Edit: And now with Risen King Chrom I really do hope we get an Awakening Spin off where we play the as Grima!Robin in the early days of his revival. Possibly have our goal be to hunt down the rest of the Shepards and kill them before resurrecting them as Risens to serve in Grima's army. There's a good 17-18 years, In Lucina's timeline, between Grima's revival and Lucina returning to the past they can play with and create a story. I'd love to see that.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

agreed.

[@demi-fiendoftime3825]

MultiLuckyLucario The founding of Yellis

[@SSBBFalco]

Forneus is misunderstood. He just wanted to revive his mother, but things got a little out of hand.

[@dogla2108]

SSBBFalco is that an FMA reference I spy

[@McJoni111]

He revived his mother-in-Law instead.

[@svolozhanin7627]

HA! Nice one.

[@fakesmile172]

SSBBFalco So...like Orson. Nice.

[@BowserGuerrero]

Rhea

[@Marcos19031]

Wow this makes me wonder if more was planned with Awakening. Maybe they had limited budget since it was supposed be the last in series?

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

both are equally feasible, the grima wormtongue similarities alone suggest that.

[@starmaker75]

Well if you look at the development of awakening and to extent fates, they were basically throwing every idea they could come up and add it to the story. Which explains a lot of the faults of awakening( and fates) writing.

[@kytim89]

The story of Awakening always felt rushed.

[@haruhisuzumiya6650]

@@kytim89 thats the point, Grima was the big bad of the entire FE series but no other FE game acknowledged its existence. Perhaps shadow dragon and new mystery led to grima forewarning...

[@gusbart5856]

@@ZerkMonsterHunter how popular is Lotr in Japan? I am not really convinced that there is a connection between these two characters, because one is a minor and weak person while the other is a monstrosity. They name Grima probably implies grim and that's all.

[@BERKAYWOOD]

Man you out done yourself with this video.The ambient music the edits and the little comic at the start. Nice! I liked Grima before (Dragon bias) but now you made me love his character.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Berukai glad you enjoyed!

[@aweosmecpcheats]

And remember his human-like face that gets revealed in Awakening if you attack him enough? It's more than likely because of the human blood that's inside him, a lot more seems like it was clearly planned for Awakening as you said

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

oh, yeah, that might even be Forneus's face.

[@aweosmecpcheats]

Yeah, quite possibly Makes you wonder if they intended for this to be his backstory from the start and just didn't have time to put it in Awakening But I'm glad we got it either way vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/fireemblem/images/9/9e/GrimaInGame.png/revision/latest?cb=20140809024519

[@D.Dragon]

It certainly would look like what many would call a 'demon alchemist'.

[@junosoft]

@@aweosmecpcheats If I recall correctly, anankos also shows one

[@ganime9497]

RIP Loptyr's relevance It'll come back Whenever GotHW or 776 gets a remake

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Loptyr = Grima theory 2012-2017 RIP in pepperoni

[@rikithelegendaryheropon8135]

Ganime Hopefully FE4 and FE 5 are made into one big game

[@MogofWar]

Ganime We don't know for sure Grima only awakened once. Perhaps Loptyr is just another incarnation, or a scion of the fell dragon who wised up to who he was, but chose to ascend himself, rather than just be a vessel for his ancestor's rebirth. Or maybe he was even disappointed that he was not a perfect vessel, but then he made the most of it and used his ancestors methods to ascend. Either so that his ancestor's plans won't interfere with his own or so his ambitions wouldn't thwart those of his ancestor, he takes his act to a far away land. Or in simpler terms, just because Grima isn't Loptyr doesn't Loptyr isn't Grima.

[@andrewvincent7299]

Mog of War But Shadow's of Valentia specifically explains Grima's origin. Grima was conceived with Divine Dragonblood. Loptyr was an Earth dragon and not a divine dragon. So it makes no sense that Loptyr is Grima.

[@Jarock316]

@@MogofWar Except Loptous is confirmed to be one of the original Earth dragons. During the Dragon War, he made a pact with a traveler from Jugdral, sharing his blood and his tome that contained his soul. While his physical body was seal, his bloodline and his soul remained free. Also, the dragon blood used to create Grima came from a Divine dragon, which automatically rules out dragons like Loptous and Medeus.

[@Naziroxx]

I think Echoes did a good job of actually giving Grima a better purpose. Did a better job than Awakening.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

definetely, like i said, awakening HD, opening cutscene, just sayin'

[@Naziroxx]

I mean then we'd have to wait 3 parts in order to encounter the main villain that was established...... yeeaaaah that's every fe

[@grima3156]

Awakening HD would probably happen in 2035-2040 I think

[@manga925]

Bret Ginn Alm didn't must likely canonly fight grima. But the back story's canon. Grima being cell fits because Lucina trunks.

[@andresmarrero8666]

Bret Ginn Alchemy is heavily mixed with necromancy, in fact necromancy forms a very big backbone within Alchemy.

[@katowoozy3664]

How to make Awakening better: Give them *FEET*.

[@MegaPokefan97]

I know right? Fates, for its flaws did do some things right: 1)Characters had feet. 2) Oni Chieftain, Maid/Bulter, Malig Knight, and Basara classes. 3) A LOT of real world inspiration (Nohr is based mostly on Germany, with some Scandinavia and Scotland thrown in. Hoshido is literally Japan). In fact, there's a Smash Brothers comic dub where Robin gets grabbed by a Jigglypuff and remarks "Gah! How's it grabbing me with no hands" Jiggs responds "Says the guy who could stand with no feet back in Fire Emblem: Awakening"

[@chillsmpclips8506]

The Right Bear For The Job so? Corrin has no shoe but awakaning characters are immune to....... Lego

[@spaeracount5160]

How to make Fates better: Give Corrin *SOCKS.* Make that damn hippie wear *SHOES!*

[@orangeslash1667]

@@spaeracount5160 the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Nintendo wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung.

[@0axis771]

You know, there are very good reasons as to why Awakening's story is average and somewhat lackluster. The biggest reason that pretty much explains everything... is that Awakening was supposed to be just a huge collection of references. Game mechanics, characters, story, it was intended to be a huge bundle of references from old games. - Valm be the future of Valentia. - Having the world map for infinite grinding like Sacred Stones and Gaiden. - An Avatar like Mark from Blazing Sword, that you can even customize and play as like Kris from New Mystery. - Support conversations that came from Blazing Sword that continued onwards through the franchise, with supports at max with characters getting paired endings. - Naga and Tiki, and the descendant of Marth for the Archanea series itself. - The taguel being a reference to the Tellius series. - Bloodlines with Brands, the cult, the evil dragon god that needs a vessel, 2nd Gen, etc. all to reference to Jugdral series. Awakening was believed to be the last game that they were warned of. Yes, if New Mystery had done bad, the series would have been cut off then and there, but since they did okay enough, they were given the warning the next would likely be the last if sales were poor. So they made Awakening to have all these references for the intention to giving the Fire Emblem franchise a proper send off. It was not meant to be a huge story with moral grey everywhere like other games, but rather a straightforward story where people can at the very least enjoy themselves to the end, and see all the references it holds for past games that they might have really liked. However, like every writer, there is always that small part of them that does want to expand lores on what is established. Maybe some of the Awakening writers wanted to expand on Grima's lore, show that Grima is far more dangerous and terrifying. So when Awakening helped turn Fire Emblem into something that climbed the charts of mainstream games, the money came in, and they could continue things. Yes, huge failure in Fates for trying too hard to ride on Awakening's popularity, but Fates did sell well still, so they could continue onwards. So when they could make Echoes, which is the past of Awakening, there was a golden opportunity right there to possibly install a part where Grima's lore can actually be explained at. Thus we have Act 6 of Echoes. If they ever remake the Jugdral series, maybe we can even find out that Forneus may be from there, or that he had actually discovered the thanatophages from the Lopto Sect's research materials, and experimented on them to a greater deal. Or maybe if they make a game that is of the First Exalt's time, we can see how the Archanea lores had gotten so revised by Awakening's time. There is much potential to be exploited. Though I do wish that Echoes had also gotten the chance to maybe explain the existence of taguels, but oh well.

[@rustkarl]

Because of Echoes I now love the last act of Awakening and Grima himself as a villain. I loved Awakening mostly for the characters and gameplay (my first FE game) But now I’m loving the lore connecting the eldritch powers even more

[@Naziroxx]

The :B:reation

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Naziro Ro🅱in join Darth validar and 🅱ecome 🅱rima

[@pktim866]

Naziro *The 🅱️reation

[@grima3156]

🅱amn

[@gurdemandboi3002]

🅱️ie 🅱️ou 🅱️diot 🅱️ou 🅱️illed 🅱️ 🅱️emes

[@LuckyTheReviewer]

You know, when taking what we learned from SoV and what we know about Thabes and the Golden Age of Dragons, you slowly begin to realize Grima, by the time Awakening rolls around, is the oldest being alive in the world and has the saddest tale. We know Duma and Mila were exiled due to Duma's attack on Thabes and Mila siding with him when it came to Duma and Naga fighting. On the wiki timeline for Archanea, Valentia, and Jugdral ( link for anyone wanting to take a look at it Timeline_of_Archanea,_Valentia_and_Jugdral), using the Archanea calendar for these events, that happened -2794 years before the 1st year on the Archanea calendar. Duma's attack destroyed Thabes, meaning the events and the sealing of Forneus' lab had to happen before Duma's raid. It's even possible to say that the rumors about Grima were what caused Duma to believe humans had been given too much power. I don't imagine the idea of humans being able to create dragon would have sat well with any of the divine dragons. While we have no true way of knowing how long before Duma's attack these events took place, if we do go with the idea that it was the rumors about Grima that caused Duma's attack, then it's possible it happened not too long before the attack, with the Senate sealing Forneus' workshop in order to try and bury what had happened. It also makes you wonder if Naga was aware of Grima's existence or chose to believe that the rumors about a man-made dragon were false. Considering the actions taken against Duma and Mila after Duma's attack, we can only guess Naga believed Grima didn't exist. Regardless, we know the story, Forneus creates Grima using Divine Dragon blood and feeds it his own blood to get him to grow, Grima ends up developing a link to Forneus because of this, Forneus begins to fear Grima and, whether Grima killed Forneus before Forneus could kill Grima or did so in self-defense, Forneus is killed and Grima is locked away with the Risen Forneus created, left undisturbed for over 3000 years. If people want the exact number Grima was sealed in the workshop for 3,402 years. For that long, Grima was alone with the only company he had being the undead Risens Forneus created. Grima likely learned how to control them during this time, likely thanks to his connection with Forneus. After over 3000 years of isolation, Alm and Celica arrive at the Labyrinth. The first humans Grima has seen in over 3000 years and what do Alm and Celica proceed to do? Put Grima to the sword. Note how Grima doesn't blindly attack them the moment they enter the room, he only goes to attack once Alm approaches with a weapon drawn. All the while, neither Alm or Celica tries too talk to Grima. This is honestly a dark moment for two characters that have been morally good up until this point. Sure, they had read all the tablets up unto this point but neither one tries to talk to Grima. Almost as if they believe him to be nothing more than an evil creature that needs to be destroyed, despite never having done anything that would warrant such actions. Regardless, Grima's perspective of humans can not be a good one, at this point. His creator plotted to kill him, the Senate of Thabes sealed him away, and the first people he encounters after 3000 years of being locked in the workshop attack and kills his physical form. It kinda puts in perspective his dialogue in Heroes about how humans see him as a monster and how "It's the world that wants me to be evil". It's also after this encounter Grima's hatred for humanity begins. As for the rest, we already know. 1000 years before Awakening, (Grima would be 4402 years old by this point) Grima made a deal with a human. Now while we don't know much about what happens, Heroes has Grima saying something interesting with his LVL 40 confession: "They have no qualms asking for divine assistance when it meets their fickle needs... But how quick they are to shun their benefactors once they get what they desire." Now, Grima could be referring to humans in general and this is complete speculation due to our lack of knowledge of what took place 1000 years before awakening but, what if Grima is saying this in the context of what happened to the human he made a blood pact with? We're never told why Grima made the pact, to begin with, or told how anyone even found out about Grima, seeing as records of Grima and Thabes might have been lost to history by this point. It could be that the one who offered the blood pact with Grima was the human, seeking Grima's powers, and Grima accepted it only for the human to shun Grima and ignore his existence wanting nothing more than Grima's powers for himself. Again this is pure speculation as we have no way to prove what happened. Hopefully, we get a game detailing the events or possibly an FE game that leaves details about it for us to get an idea of what happened. Regardless, Grima fights the First Exalt and loses and is sealed away by Naga, likely where Grima's hatred for Naga begins for her helping the humans that view him as nothing more than an evil being. Then Awakening happens and, by this point, Grima is over 5000 years old. (5402 to be precise). Sure people would think that Naga is but remember, Naga died shortly after Tiki was born. While we aren't really told what Naga is in Awakening, we know she is still a Divine Dragon. This is personal thoughts but it's likely Nagi from Marth's era ends up becoming the Naga we see in Awakening, seeing as Medeus brings up how Nagi is a reincarnation of Naga. Regardless, that would mean that Naga, going with this idea, is younger than Grima. Perhaps this whole analysis is a bit bias towards Grima but, regardless, it's some food for thought.

[@robby6382]

I'm pretty sure Grima attacked Alm and Celica on the spot. Sure you can walk around him and stuff, but you have to realize that Alm and Celica waltz in there with an army. They break his seal, disturb his peace, and Hunters Volley the crap outta him. Grima was prepared for somebody to attack him- He had specialized units in a formation to take on anyone who would dare disturb his peace, along with reinforcements. Now, I dont think he really wanted to be attacked- but he set himself up for it- and low and behold, he was attacked by people who where labeled as the reincarnations of Duma and Milla- that is no coincidence to me.

[@lambtoken2708]

Anankos is probably older but he's not part of the archanean lore

[@epicjack2922]

Isn't it also possible that Grima destroyed Alm's Empire? Since his dynasty was specifically said to last 1000 years and Grima was fought by the first exalt 1000 years before Awakening's story, which takes place 2000 years before Shadows of Valentia

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Jack Batey equally possible

[@nikoladedic6623]

Luxorious Luxray no way they survived for 1000 years to stop him.

[@bingusshlingus1442]

Jack Batey perhaps but alm's empire could beat him since chances are alm and celica did you know...mate. So chances are grima went after Marth's bloodline instead of alm's since valentia was under very little conflict after duma's defeat.

[@xxx_jim_the_reaper_xxx]

+crippling meme addiction Feels bad for Marth's Family Tree, man.

[@marikacurrie8370]

Man I love Grima

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

i didn't, then thabes happened. and now i do.

[@xxx_jim_the_reaper_xxx]

Sean Currie Did you mean "Hail Grima!"?

[@unstablepc5913]

You know what would be sick? A Thabes game where one of the recruitable characters would be Forneus. Archanea is soooo cool, please IS...

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Unstable PC that would be badass.

[@D.Dragon]

If that were to exist, he would probably be a Gato type character who can solo any chapter you put him in.

[@SwordsmanMercenary]

"You ever hear the tragedy of Forneus the demon alchemist?"

[@ChoiceSnarf]

Stone masks? Undead warriors that wear said masks? Patrick Seitz? *Is this a fucking Jojo reference?!*

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

egypt? patrick seitz as a blonde dude?

[@spicywater1424]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Zeke is under appreciated tbh

[@miruneverdies]

ULTIMATE LIFEFORM?

[@demi-fiendoftime3825]

Choice Snarf OH MY GOD!!!!

[@cenobiaa3854]

What I find really interesting is that it seems like Grima has been hanging around in Thabes for awhile so does that mean he existed since before the first game? Because if so Grima is much older than originally thought.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Fluffygiraffe true. It's possible forneus might have been a Loptyr follower given that.

[@conwaysquest6961]

Thanatophage means "Death Eaters"

[@gregoryback1285]

HARRY POTTER CONFIRMED

[@MegaPokefan97]

I bet if forneus gets a portrait, he'll have no nose, just a couple of holes in his face

[@Dan_om3]

7:14 "It's voice *Echoes*..." Is that why it's called "Fire Emblem: Echoes"? This would make the tittle seem a lot more resembling of an Awakening prequel.

[@electivetoast6897]

We wuz creatin' fell dragons n' shiet.

[@gooey5255]

Elective Toast Wuz we tho?

[@shekelabductor7370]

sheet

[@evilmar2363]

Elective Toast LMAO

[@thunderstar4635]

What if Walhart is the descendant of Alm and Gregor is the descendant of Saber? Also Maribelle and Clair happens to be the archetype with blonde hair and brown eyes.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

it's been common knowledge that walhart is descended from alm.

[@lpfan4491]

walmart xD

[@roguegirl29]

​@Luuca Walhart himself confirmed his connection to Alm and Celica in Awakening.

[@Riheinorn]

damn, now that echoes and heroes actually add to his character, i kind of start really loving awakening, unlike when i first played it around 2012/2013... amazing video!! :D

[@ivanbluecool]

I love grima. Most say he is bland but read the story. Grima is smart and wad made to be a god. I made the theory a long time ago about grima being a earth dragon decent with divine dragon blood. Also he makes duma looks like a punk. Plus grima was a baby at the time. Grima over duma all the way

[@lpfan4491]

he only makes duma look like a punk because they both fight the player and not each other. duma can only be killed by falchion,exalt falchion,nosferatu and sword of seals afterall :'D of course,that would change if duma was still alive at the time grima was grown up

[@mr.mtfvsgaming3767]

i second that

[@grima3156]

ivanbluecool Thank you, mortal.

[@D.Dragon]

But Grima is only all of those things because his bloodline was, and he (since he was created) drew all his traits from his genetics in his blood, which came from Forneus.

[@tallmyster1323]

Thabes is a place that has significance in Archanea FE lore and Grimas identity even if most people don't care to play Echoes to realize it. In the first games, Gharnef made what was left of the City of Thabes his base of operations, specifically because the place not only held lost tech for his magic, but because it had something Gharnef knew would make him and his magic stronger. We wouldn't know it at the time, but Gharnef seeking the secrets that lie in Thabes isn't a coincidence, it's in fact a very subtle and unique piece of foreshadowing for future FEs. In a semi-obscure bit of info, it was Duma who sunk the place out of fear of what humans were doing with powers beyond their understanding. Not only was it a place that was built with the guidance of the Manakete folk, the Thabes peoples source of where they learned this power ordinary people wouldn't have, and also it had...well, The Experiment. Anyone who's taken the time to come down here in person knows what I'm talking about, including the full nightmarish story behind it that's explained here, and it hits different seeing it with your own two eyes. Thabes and it's knowledge of Manaketes also explain how Forneus was even capable of doing what he did with Divine Dragon blood. Because of this things history dating back to when Thabes was still around, alongside how sinful the people of Thabes became, its a good guess to assume this was what Duma was afraid of specifically, and was the dark power that Gharnef wanted, with a good chance of not fully even knowing what it is. The fact that this was under everyone's noses the whole time, until Alm and Celica found it, was one thing, it would be another thing when it would be the start of a massive butterfly effect of events towards Awakening, and heck maybe even other Archanea FEs past it that don't exist yet I dunno. My point is, Thabes is an origin point of a lot of Archanea FE plot, and Gharnef seeking this place out implied there was something to it long before it even happened for us. To say Thabes is cursed by darkness isn't an exaggeration, even if everyone didn't know what kind of darkness. You don't hear this level of storytelling very much anywhere else, if not at all.

[@starwarschic123]

Here are somethings I'd like to add The dark mage class generic design also draws aesthetics from Ancient Egypt most notable being the male dark mages Cowl looks similar to Set the god of deserts and storms though its probable its just a dragon head... and their loin covering. Grima is also a homumculus as the act of Forneus giving Grima his blood is said to be an ingredient in the process of creating a homunculi.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

it's a sound observation. also thanks for not making an FMA joke.

[@0axis771]

If you think about it, homunculus are actually supposed to be very tiny. And Grima was only the size of a thumbnail according to the translations. So Grima is possibly a homunculus that grew very large. But I feel like Grima might actually be partially a thanatophages as well, like maybe that insect was used as a component, cause Grima does have the power to make Risen in Awakening clearly, and there's a certain insect-like case in Grima's body.

[@xxx_jim_the_reaper_xxx]

Axis Grima is a Mutated Thanatophage because of Naga and Forneus's mixed blood.

[@ammyshadows3817]

Can I just say, that most of the dragons in FE look absolutely terrifying

[@OneStarProductionsStudio]

Beautiful video Zerk 😩👌🏼

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

SD King Otaks why thank you.

[@aviad61]

I think the time traveling was also a very great idea with not so great execution, the main problem with it being unfocused and underdeveloped

[@katowoozy3664]

I actually like the time travelling, mainly due to the children. They were implemented quite well actually since they had plot relevance. Of course, I only have Fates to compare the marriage system to. So, yeah, Awakening did the time travel and children system very well imo.

[@Dragrath1]

Ironically Fire Emblem Awakening is one of the few games that did time travel correctly using the many world hypothesis to avoid Temporal paradoxes. It also interestingly portrayed time travel as poorly understood in universe by the protagonists, Grima and even Naga who initiated the magic involved. In many respects this lack of understanding is one of the key aspects that led to Grima's demise by allowing the oversight mentioned in this video. Factoring in the Future past arc we can learn enough about how time travel works to come to a realization that Grima would have won if it had not acted to thwart Lucina's travel into the past something that is honestly interesting as Grima and everyone else in universe simply didn't know this and had no ability to understand this without first hand experience. And unlike the train wreck that was fates the children actually made sense in context of the game.

[@MogofWar]

Dragrath1 Grima would have still won. Going back in time caused Robin's amnesia, without which Robin's betrayal of Chrom would have been assured. Had Robin not had amnesia, Lucina would have changed jack diddly shit, as Robin would have wormed his way into the court of Yllise, Grima Wormtongue style, and gathered all the components of the Fire Emblem, whilst starting a series of wars that would see every power that could oppose him undone. Long story short, Lucina goes back in time to stop Grima and Grima doesn't follow, leads to Grima ruling in two universes.

[@Dragrath1]

Isn't that the same thing I was trying to say? If Grima hand't followed Lucina then he would have won? And yes in that case there would be two separate and likely successful Grimas.

[@lpfan4491]

but robin wasnt evil to begin with.if only lucina went through,they would have easily killed validar when he was trying to kill emmeryn.and since validar was the maintrigger for chroms death,jack shit would have happened to ensure grimas victory.

[@0axis771]

BTW, when I was at Serenes and had a conversation about Grima and how his resurrection worked in regards to how he can't be killed, this little response kind of made perfect sense: I'd guess Grima has their soul, their power, and their body. The body is the bloodline that carries the soul in the most optimal way, but the soul can be transmigrated to create a new bloodline in another body. The power is what gets sealed away, and is necessary for bringing the soul and body of Grima to a full blossoming of Fell Dragon godliness. It's a little like what happened to Dracula post-1999 in Castlevania. His power in the form of his castle got sealed in an eclipse, but his soul and traces of his power survived unsealed. It was so simple, but I wasn't able to ever phrase it out right. XD

[@ConductorElcrest]

Grima has an amazing back story in this game tbh

[@ConductorElcrest]

And I'm glad this is his canon back story. It gives him an amazing back story which I love.

[@tygedge7715]

I love how well they put Grima's timeline together, In Awakening it is stated that it takes 1,000 years for a proper vessel to be born letting Grima return. In Echoes Alm Defeats Grima, 1,000 years later the first Exalt Defeats Grima, then 1,000 years later in Awakening Chrom Defeats Grima. It fits into a timeline perfectly!

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

it does and it's awesome!

[@dragonmaster1500]

Fun Fact, wiki for FE Shadows of Valentia actually lists Grima as a primary antagonist.

[@ZekeNigma]

I feel like Grima may have been partially inspired by Lovecraft as well, namely Nyarlathotep, a very intelligent Elder God who had origins in ancient Egypt, alongside a doomsday cult that worshipped him. He was also known for taking on many vessels, and be very patient and meticulous with his plotting, often playing the long game and having counters ready for any actions that his foes may try to take against him. In a similar vein to Grima, Nyarlathotep was also accidentally unearthed from an ancient tomb in the desert. Nyarlathotep was also known to have magical abilities on a cosmic level, being able to control the very essence of chaos itself as the embodiment of it, as well as raise the dead and have them under his command.

[@bladehero8490]

"one of the most intellegent villians in the entire series" yes so intellegent he reassembles the fire emblem one of the only things in the world that can stop him, truly a tactical mastermind

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

Bladehero Still smarter than Ashera

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

well, let's be real here, FE villains, apart from Lyon and Arvis weren't ever the smartest folks.

[@basilofgoodwishes4138]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 *cough* Manfroy *cough*

[@thewerdna]

I mean, it does look like he needed it to free himself from being sealed away. Robin only ran over and grabbed it from him after he'd already broken the seal. So its not like Grima had much of a choice really.

[@0axis771]

Remember what Zerk said? Grima never accounted for HIMSELF to be the enemy.

[@nicholasmiller9468]

It is said Naga's final resting place is in Thabes, isn't it?

[@joelnionkekyo5719]

Yeah, kind of funny, I assume that the senate at Thabes got the divine dragon blood from the corpse of Naga.

[@xxx_jim_the_reaper_xxx]

Joelnion Kekyo Ahhh... Tomb Raiders. No wonder her tomb was moved to the Fane of Raman from what is now called "The Alterspire" from another Timeline.

[@LuckyTheReviewer]

@@joelnionkekyo5719 I don't think that's the case. Thabes' golden age was during the time of the Golden Age of Dragons. We know Forneus/The Senate of Thabes was given dragon blood, likely from Naga considering her perspective when it comes to humans, so it was likely all the business with Grima that we read about on the tablets happened before Duma raided and killed most of the populace. It also brings up to question if Naga knew of Grima's existence and, if she did, why she choose to ignore him rather than deal with him early on.

[@ryleyfraser5050]

So something just occurred to me. When you first make it to archanea in echoes, at port there's an npc who talks about how people will from the west will bring destruction. It just occurred to me that that's true, because you break the seal in thabes, letting grima free. Yes you defeat him, with falchion no less, but as we learned in awakening, that's not enough to kill grima, just seal him away for a time. Alm and the Valentians basically set a time bomb which later almost destroyed a continent.

[@conwaysquest6961]

Grima isn't a true divine dragon, so he doesn't suffer from the mental breakdown that beings like Duma and Mila did. Of course, he was already completely evil to begin with, but he didn't lose his intellect. And that's a very bad thing.

[@tokusatsukeyblade797]

I love how they were able to flesh out Grima more in Echoes, but there are still a couple of loose end that bug me. Where did they get the divine dragon blood to create Grima, and who’s blood did they use? Also, how did Naga even know so much about Grima in Awakening? As we see in Gaiden and Echoes, Naga had next to no involvement with the events of the story outside of the presence of one of her Falchion blades and the lore about her banishing Milla and Duma to Valentia. On top of that, Grima is not a naturally born divine dragon, he was born from a madman’s experiments on the blood of a divine dragon, thus he has no proper history with the other Divine dragons, let alone Naga. Grima also was actively trying to avoid being discovered, and the only reason Alm and Celica were able to uncover his existence was because they chose to go spelunking in the ruins he was living in and just stumbled upon him while exploring. And since Alm and Celica then thoroughly kicked his ass when they caught him with his pants down, Grima was forced to fake his death and take on a new form so he can go back into hiding. Yet, despite these discrepancies, Naga acts like she and Grima were sworn enemies that have known each other for their whole lives. You can argue that Naga could of found out about Grima through the battle between the Fell Dragon and the First Exalt of Ylisse, but that still doesn’t explain why she treats him like a old foe she has faced countless times before. Because taking that battle into account alongside the events of awakening would mean she has only come into conflict with him two times, which makes her in depth knowledge about the Fell Dragon by the time of awakening unsettling and suspicious. There seems to be so much more going on surrounding Grima than what the games are willing to show us.

[@amirgarcia547]

It's sad that Grima was never explained in Awakening, but I was entirely happy that they did so in Echoes. I always just assumed that he was the Satan of the dragons while Naga was the God. But it's a lot more interesting to see that he was created instead, and how the Duma Faithful share a lot of parallels to the Grimleal. They're probably what the Grimleal eventually became. My only problem with Awakening's story, besides the third act feeling rushed and amnesia being a giant story cliché, was that it had its fair share of plot holes. But we thankfully now have the biggest one answered.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

fates? all this info comes from echoes lol. either way aside from your mistake i completely agree.

[@amirgarcia547]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 xD oh my mistake. I have no idea why Fates popped into my head instead of Echoes. But yeah, my only problem with Awakening's story, besides the third act feeling rushed and amnesia being a giant story cliché, was that it had its fair share of plot holes. But we thankfully now have the biggest one answered.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

indeed!

[@conwaysquest6961]

Grima even resembles Duma to to an extent. The shape of the head, the horns.

[@Dragrath1]

Which actually makes sense as Grima was born from the blood of a divine Dragon and Duma was originally a divine dragon according to Echoes. It is even possible that Duma's blood was the dragon used though we will probably never no and there were certainly more divine dragons at that point(pre degeneration)

[@fubu72]

I initially didn't think much of Grima as a villain. Fast forward many years to me playing the extra dungeon of SoV. Going deeper and deeper into the ruins and legitimately getting interested in the lore being presented to me. "Apparently we unsealed some dangerous shit, welp lol" I constantly think about what this "ultimate being" could look like, "I bet it's a goddamn dragon tho". But then when I reach the last floor, walk forward and see the markings on the door I COMPLETELY LOSE MY SHIT LIKE "YOOOOOOOOOO" THEN I OPEN THE DOOR AND I'M LIKE "YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" The sudden realization hit me so hard and the fight was pretty cool as well. The character of Grima was redeemed very strongly for me that day. Also, I can imagine some may complain that this _could_ suggest IntSys wants to make _YET_ another Awakening related game. But to be honest, if, and ONLY IF, the lore and story of that game were done VERY WELL, I would personally welcome it with open arms.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

pretty much, when i sawthe symbol on the door my reaction was more along the lines of "fuck you" (towards the Devs) and then I saw what i had to fight and i was "those bastards actually fucking didi it. i love fire emblem"

[@ralf5751]

the moment i first saw the symbol of Grima on the ground i was like WTF?! Your kidding me right, geez we meet again i guess Grima!

[@imadoinwat8994]

my CCs were on by accident and the first line made me laugh my ass off. "in babies lived an alchemist named for Nass". But I have to admit, this really adds extra dimensions to one of my favorite games!

[@SharlaBlades]

Well I know what I'm incorporating now. Thanks for bringing thus to light. It was very eye opening.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

no problem, glad you enjoyed the video!

[@phoeillustrator]

Never had I realized there was a similiarity in the dark lore. Especially between the lord of the rings trilogy and the fire emblem series... This has been insidiously educational, thank you!

[@adamrhodes9533]

A couple things you forgot to mention: Grima also has connections to masks. Grima, despite being alive for so long, has yet to go insane like what all dragons are supposed to suffer. Grima may truly be the ultimate lifeform...

[@rainbowcats4284]

True...

[@glaba24]

"A singular perfect being" So does that mean Grima is Cell?

[@thedoorman6940]

Ike aaaand further supporting the fact Lucina is female Trunks, thanks Shadows of Valentia

[@UnlimitedMrX]

Ike #GrimaGames when

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

i know i'm quoting Freza, but "THIS ISN'T EVEN MY FINAL FORM"

[@CrickettoSantalune]

This story made me think that a hack for Echoes could be made, if any unit dies in Thabes Labyrinth, in the next battle that unit will appear with the Death Mask and you will have to fight him/her.

[@555redkid]

I love the ancient history references as well as fictional references put into a series like this, it makes it seem like it's much more of than just a video game series. I see it almost on par with movie universes sometimes in terms of how good the story can be during some moments. I even feel like a fire emblem movie would be insane to see happen whether they copied a game story or make a brand new one. As far as remakes, I'd like to see them remake Fates or Awakening and either fix and extend Fates writing and plot and or extend Awakening's story. To be honest, I thought Awakening was pretty good if you take out the whole missing information part, and call it on me if you will, I still like Fates even the way it is, I know it's hard to swallow at times, but I love the setting of the game, and the characters, and things like that completely blinded me from the bad story and writing at first...

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

hey it's perfectly fine if you like fates, i like it plenty as well! i hope you enjoyed my video , because as you said the thematics and references to real world lore outside of FE make it such an interesting topic to delve into. i plan to do more of this in the future.

[@555redkid]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 Yeah, I enjoyed it A LOT! At first I thought it was going to be boring, but this topic interested me way more than I expected, I'll definitely be sure to watch stuff like this in the future if you ever do it!

[@MemesToa]

I find it funny that Grima, a being who is essentially portrayed as the equivalent of Satan in Awakening's time, was the creation of a mortal madman. I wonder what would've happened if someone told him about that? How would Grima react to someone knowing that he is in fact not only man-made, but essentially mortal?

[@GintaPPE1000]

Wouldn't that reaction basically be how he treats your party in Awakening proper? I mean, even when presented with Exalted Falchion he basically just laughed it off and said "come at me, bro." As the video stated he basically thought of every possible factor as well, so I find it hard to imagine he didn't have some sort of plan for that kind of situation, even if it was as simple as crushing whoever knew about his origins before they could do anything with that information.

[@MemesToa]

Here's the difference: After 2000 years, he's convinced himself, and the whole world, that he's an immortal god. Now picture some human(Possibly the avatar) going up to him and reminding him of his mortality, in front of a good 40-50 people of pretty high standing, alongside a legion of his followers. Granted, he'd keep the image of giving no fucks whatsoever. But what would be going through his mind during that?

[@TheCayDawg]

YES! Everything about this video is great! I love the style of the video and the fact that someone is finally talking about Grima in Echoes SOV!!!

[@vagrant2863]

Maybe next game we'll get a resolution to the "where did the valentian falchion go" plothole from awakening?

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

that'd be nice.

[@vagrant2863]

Now that I think about it what's the story behind the Sage's shield? It's clearly a power artifact if it was able to imprison Forneus and his works. Maybe in a future FE game it'll be plot relevant, akin to a stand-in for the shield of seals.

[@JR384]

It'd be cool to see, since Walhart is a buffed Great Knight in the form of Conqueror, he has two exclusive weapons. He has his Wolf Berg, which is his main choice for battle, but then he has Valmese Royal Blood in him (I still vehemently believe that Walhart wasn't some commonboy that saw shit was wrong with his country. He looks way too similar to Rudolf in Echoes.), and he possesses a weapon simply described as "the Kingsfang" (what Mila calls it when Rudolf confronts her in the Temple of Mila) And when you get an in-depth look at in battle (maybe he finds Robin and Chrom exclusively a worthy enough foe to be struck down by the Valentian Falchion), and a conversation with Walhart reveals that his royal blood and overwhelming power allows him to fully utulize the "Sword of Dragons and Gods themselves", so that he may damn them - and introduces it as the Falchion.

[@reyniersamaniego9085]

I always had the question of what or who Grima was the first time I played Awakening. Thankfully, Echoes answered my questions.

[@catsarekeytoawar]

Fire emblem could be a good tv show, each game as a different season

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

yo. that'd be dope.

[@lordtullus9942]

The FE 3 ova was dope

[@Juan-zs6jt]

That was an FE1 ova, not FE3.

[@peterh2223]

@@ZerkMonsterHunter do you think this would be like Jojo's bizzare adventure?

[@cyancyclone5642]

I figured out the relevance between Grima name and LOTR, thank you for this video

[@WHYvernmaster]

I was maybe 3% spoiled by this, since I haven't gotten all the way through Thabes Labyrinth yet, but this was a fascinating discussion... I do hope an updated version of Awakening elaborates on this.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

WHYvernMaster agreed.

[@Shining_Waters]

Very good analysis! Really love what Echoes added to Grima's backstory~

[@doubleflores8350]

So wait, you mean to tell me that Grima is a Homunculus? *Fullmetal alchemist theme intensifies*

[@Und3rBr0ny115]

That intro still gives me chills, even after 3 years.

[@StarStruckSolace]

I like how he is a God created by the hate and putrid nature of man. Born of once purity and protection, tainted and made of the blight by the blood of Forneus.

[@LeonMooky]

Out of all the dragons in gods in Fire Emblem Grima lore was a mystery to me even after the secret dungeon in echoes thanks for bring it to light

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Leon Mooky no problem.

[@BeastBoom24]

I never knew that people disliked Awakening’s story. I recently played it and enjoyed it so much. The Second act with Valm seemed kind of random though.

[@sniggelbob]

Better build up and and a nicely told origin doesn't change the fact that upon his resurrection, he just floats there, waiting for you to stop him.

[@t.b.cont.]

I think one idea that would have been cool for the Grimleal was giving them a motivation for even wanting to bring Grima back. As a being of annihilation, and the fact that the people of pelagia literally live in the shade of his skull, I think there would be a strong fear of grima. You could make a connection with the real thought experiment “roko’s basilisk” where the cult sees his coming to be inevitable, and want to be the ones to summon him in order to be spared of his wrath, therefore making his return inevitable

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Yeah you can absolutely make that connection. however I don't think it was one that necessarily influenced Grima creatively during the development process. since that thought experiment isn't popular outside of the West and only really gained Traction in last few years long after Awakening had released.

[@Jarock316]

Actually, the Grimleal did have a motivation to resurrect Grima. They were essentially a doomsday cult looking to bring about the apocalypse, and judging from Awakening's original timeline, they succeeded.

[@thebutzel9752]

Awakening was my first FE game and Grima to me seemed like a being of pure Evil, Anger, Fear and Sorrow but the backstory Echoes gave is one that is a lot more sinister then my first theories on him. I thought the pure being thing because of a line that said his roar brings despair to the world which would make me think that Back then. Now with this knowledge I now must treat Grima as a much much older and sinister villain then I originally thought which I like a lot. Yeah I agree on the lack of story in Awakening which in my opinion as a lot of potential but it doesn't live up to it. If it is remade the Story needs a revamp. Keep the structure and outline but fill it out better and I honestly don't mind the three arch structure either.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

well said, I agree, he seems less lovecraftian and more bram stoker now.

[@thebutzel9752]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 I also wish they would explain more of Valm's history for players who haven't played Echoes or who just getting into the series. I only really found out the Valm was Valentia because of the Mila Tree and that's it. No monuments to Alm or Celica or Duma or anything just that one tree that Tiki resided in Awakening.

[@thebutzel9752]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 and I agree with your statement too.

[@andrewvincent7299]

Thabes is in Regna Ferox, not Plegia. The port Alm and Celica land on is the same port the Valmese vangaurd attacked at the start of their invasion in Awakening.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

Andrew Ruiz it's in North plegia, you know because: desert

[@andrewvincent7299]

Thabes is north of Khadein. Both which are in Regna Ferox.

[@zedtozen5967]

I never could finish SoV (I think I was spoiled by Awakening's version of the combat system), but after going through 4 minutes of the video I knew I had to finish it.

[@JXDemon21]

At this point the hatred towards Awakening and Fates are honestly getting annoying to the point where I just ignore the comments that are just sending negative waves to the game for what they are. Though on the topic of Grima though we had to wait for Echoes to even get more out of his story I honestly now find him a more interesting antagonist for Awakening's 3rd act however that isn't without it's problems. It doesn't perfect Grima himself as an enemy but that doesn't mean he's the worst of the evil villains of Fire Emblem you can do far worse though since I haven't beaten the FE games I have yet to beat being FE:RD, FE:SS FE6, FE7, and FE12. I can't say much for villains since Awakening, Fates and Echoes are still the only FE games I've beaten and experienced everything in.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

you need to play SS, because it has bar none the best villain in the series.

[@JXDemon21]

I have been playing it actually I've just been very on and off with it. Main reason is due to me going through Fire Emblem Burnout with how many gamges I've been marathoning as in replaying Echoes again only picking Deen instead of Sonya as well as another playthrough planned bringing Shade and Yuzu into my teams it's kinda hard to manage playing several FE games that and I use an emulator for my GBA FE games. That and I've been playing the GBA FE games in short bursts than marathoning them.

[@lordtullus9942]

Hey, I like awakening for what it is!

[@lordtullus9942]

And uh... try FE 11. Shadow dragon. IT's a fast game, fairly cheap on the Wii U eshop, and is simple enough to get into with an easy-to-follow story. The characters you need to put together yourself, but other than that it's a decent FE game worthy of your time.

[@JXDemon21]

I'm not saying I'm hating Awakening I like the game I'm just not blind to it's issues but unlike most people who bring up so many negatives and begin hating on the game I see both it's positives and negatives without overbloating the negatives as so many FE KZbinrs have done at this point in time.

[@amandagreene7008]

How Alm was able to defeat Duma and Grima (younger/smaller, but still powerful) makes him so cool. I wish they could've gone a bit deeper explaining why they went to Thabes Labyrinth. This is more of a headcanon of mine, but Zofia and Rigel seemed to have mostly kept to themselves, isolated from the rest of the world (much like Japan was in real life). Perhaps they heard there was trouble in Archanea, so Alm and Celica went together to start establishing connections and peace between continents.

[@LatiasDita]

It's kind of a shame that it needed to take a remake of an older game with an extra dungeon to explain Grima's origin. I was hoping for an Awakening follow-up that delves into Grima's backstory. After all, Medeus's backstory wasn't explained much in the very first Fire Emblem. It took Mystery of the Emblem to go into it completely. Rather than a sequel or prequel, though, we got a remake of a mostly unrelated game. Better this than never, I supposed. Like you, I really appreciate the deeper lore Grima is given and think it improve Awakening weak story. One hypothesis of mine is that the divine dragon blood Forneus obtained was Naga's blood. After all, Thabes is alleged to be Naga's final resting place. Maybe the people of Thabes kept some of Naga's blood as a holy relic. Forenus got his hands on this blood and used it to create a draconculus--Grima. It would explain why Grima and Naga are so linked.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

i like that theory al ot, hough there's also precedine to suggest that forneus may have been a Loptyr cultist.

[@mariosonic987pac-hero4]

Man. You must have some knack of knowledge of putting these pieces together. Grima is indeed an intelligent god went wrong.

[@ivanbluecool]

Echoes. Echo back to thier roots. Use gaiden for the roots and awakening lore for the resurrection of the series after 4 years

[@victorhale]

You know I may have commented on this video with “VictorHale” but I would also like to add that according to Making of Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance, the name of Ike’s country was Thabes, Babylonian Empire. Quite obvious where they got it from. Hell Ike’s original name was Paris. Even more apparent was the fact that Mist’s name was Mistine. But even more amazing was that Thabes was a city in Persis. If you recall Sephiran was the Duke of Persis and if you look up Making of Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance you can see that they were going to tie in the Tellius series to the others in a VERY interesting way. After all a giant flood wiped out every continent save Tellius.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

huh, neat

[@stanthegreatman6592]

tbh I love grima mostly because he was once a smol dragon

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

[Insert dragon maid joke here]

[@stanthegreatman6592]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 DON'T LEWD HIM

[@BriarValley]

I kind of like to think, considering the existence of outrealm portals in fire emblem, that perhaps Forneus was a part of the Lopto sect that found himself in this world and decided to bring his god back there. After all, it would explain Grima's connection to the 12 dead lords...

[@davish7864]

By the way, Thabes is also in Shadow Dragon. You fight and kill Gharnef there!

[@GlaceonLeafeon15]

ngl while playing through thabes labyrinth, the atmosphere, music, and notes freaked me the fuck out

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

agreed, the atmosphere was done very well.

[@fallendreamer2411]

This was interesting and very presented. I still haven't gotten past act 6 though. I'm still grinding in order to survive past floor 6, lol. And it makes sense that Echoes would be the game to introduce these hints of Grima as it did a good job involving 1 detail; divine dragon blood. This implies that Grima is part divine dragon thus making sense why only falchion's edge could harm it, as duma and mila as well could only be harmed by falchion. But I hy the valentian falchion is effective on gods and terrors only and the archenean falchion is affective on gods and dragons only.

[@fallendreamer2411]

*I wonder why (KZbin glitch)

[@thewerdna]

It could be due to the fact that the Valentian Falchion actually predates the Archanean Falchion by at at least 1500 years. The accord between Mila and Duma happens 3000 years before Echoes, which in turn seems to have happened some large span of time after they were banished from Archanea and Naga gave Falchion to Duma so he could be killed should he ever go crazy. Meanwhile the Fire Emblem and the Archanean Falchion were made only about 1500 years prior to Shadow Dragon/Echoes. So its possible Naga made some modifications to the original design when she created a second Falchion.

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

TheWerdna in a sense that makes the 2 falchions and the Tyrfiing sister Swords, being 2 of naga's fangs and her dragonstone respectively

[@shadowqua4894]

Isn't Naga's dragonstone in the book of Naga? I though one of the other dragons gave the Tyrfing its stone. Because each dragon of the twelve have each crusader a weapon with a stone? (I haven't finished the game so I may be wrong, please correct me if I am)

[@D.Dragon]

IntSys really screwed themselves over when they made Nosferatu's Duma Slaying ability canon though. It implies the Falchion is not the only God-slaying sword (not the Monado) or even God-slaying weapon.

[@richardwalker2881]

Basically a draconic version of shadow the hedgehog, aswell paralleling the dark matter beings from kirby

[@lVicel]

*REMEMBER KIDS:* Grima was the *ONLY* Main who fulfill is Goals. To the point, were the Heroes had to have many factors to defeat him: -Time Travel -Sacred Sword -Naga Powers (Aka.God Powers) -Aim for the Weak Point -A Grima Clone to completely Kill him -2 Generations of Warriors (3, if Morgan is a Child of a Future Kid) -3 Generation of Falchion Users (Alm, Chrom & Lucina) -Friendship Powers -Anime Powers -Galeforce Soo...yeah, Grima was OP as f*ck

[@Jarock316]

Loptous: Am I a joke to you?

[@ivanbluecool]

I thought I was the only one who knew this. Thanks for making this. Grima deserves more love. Robin only got more popular by becoming summer robin

[@ZerkMonsterHunter]

haha too true on the robin thing. glad you enjoyed the video.

[@ivanbluecool]

ZerkMonsterHunter 4 YOU ROCK. DO MORE LORE

[@eirikaisbae5031]

ivanbluecool You mean female Robin right?

[@LittleMisZorua]

god, Grima was one of the most underwhelming villains out there, but Thabes Labyrinth really breathed life into him. After reading of the terrifying story of Forenus becoming consumed in his studies, then by extension, his creation, I grew to respect and love Grima for the kind of foe he is for the shepherds to face.

[@RJTheHero8]

The new revelations put into Grima's back story gave me new found respect for Awakening. Now if only the character models in Awakening had actual feet instead of stumps for legs, than mabye I can appreciate it more. :3