Ground in PCB Layout - Separate or Not Separate? (with Rick Hartley)

[@synth0022]

Since graduating university I've been extremely frustrated at the slow pace and lack of learning opportunities in employment. This is gold, the stuff that companies want to drip feed over a decade, and even then it might not be right! Rick has done a great service in sharing his knowledge.

[@piscopatos]

thank you Rob. This is great. World needs people like you.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Bilen

[@MARUTI96]

Bro your video helps me to study so many things.

[@virinom]

I'm electronics engineering student and the things I learnt from this video is priceless. These are the things you can not learn in university (mostly). Thank you.

[@brokenicry]

most PCB Design stuff, you do not learn at university

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Suleyman

[@therealb888]

@@RobertFeranec True, our university doesn't teach PCB design. Can you make a video why most universities around the world don't teach PCB design?

[@roymoran1151]

This is the new university. KZbin university.

[@alphaprot2518]

My advice - get a internship/student job at one of your faculties. This helped me a lot to get in touch with "the real" world problems of engineering.

[@Usturam]

I hope you to be very rich Robert. But these lessons you share with us are more important than money. Thanks for everything.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Musa

[@AbdullahKahramanPhD]

Robert, your questions were right from the industry’s heart, you were a great host, please keep making more content like this..

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Abdullah. I am very happy you liked this video.

[@AlexKarasev]

​@@RobertFeranecRobert, can you please make some videos on how you'd design even higher protection level circuits, such as underwater and space power tools, tempest-grade circuitry, and EMP resistance.

[@brokenicry]

Two of 3 people I owe my job in the defense industry to... Thank you Gentlemen

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you BrokenICry

[@oregondude825]

More like this? YES! These are very interesting and informative. Grounding, EMI and these sorts of issues will never go away. Every new design opens all new opportunities for these issues. Hearing this stuff repeated and taught should help everyone. Thanks Robert and Rick - great stuff.

[@Nik930714]

That was extremely interesting. I would really love a video with Rick going over some BS found in switching mode power supplies application notes or layout guides.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Nik

[@BogdanSerban]

I'd also be interested about that. Especially multiple grounds for power (or what they call "dirty" ground) and signal and also coupling primary/secondary ground with capacitors.

[@nameredacted1242]

There is a PDF available on the internet on exactly that topic! Presentation-6D - PCB Carolina PCBC2018-6D_Rick_Switcher Layout.pdf

[@marienverx1852]

Good videos to hear new info. What I miss is the examples on the improvements which are made against the switcher manufactures application notes. It will be a good lesson to see the details on how de placement and routing was, And how Rick improved this. Beside EMI improvement, what was the improvement on functional behaviour of those DCDC switchers? An important item beside EMI, is a stable reference point.

[@jayernoud9334]

That meets exactly what I was preaching to my customers, but it is very hard to convince digital designers fearing the analog world to understand the concept of ground return paths. (I am an apps engineer for power delivery :-)

[@joebobku]

I’d like to see a video discussing grounding around connectors more. You see terminations around connectors that separate the connector ground from the PCB ground all the time for ESD or EMI reasons. You see 4n7 caps paralleled with 1Meg resistors. Sometimes you’ll see ferrite beads in the signal ground path and in the power path. This can help with emi but can hurt esd. A lot of times you end up with connectors or chassis that you cannot tie the connector shield to anything. Especially with hdmi, usb, Ethernet.

[@montvydasklumbys7584]

Yeah, I saw so many different opinions about this but not one single / true / correct answer... It would be REALLY nice to know what to do best, what to do if best cannot be done and what NOT to do :D

[@derstrom8]

I was recently allowed the great privilege of attending a 1-day seminar taught by Rick Hartley at the AltiumLive Design Summit in San Diego. Those 8 hours completely changed how I viewed PCB design, and electronics as a whole.

[@wingunder]

Hi Robert, your idea of interviewing experts, like in this video, is excellent! It helps confirming some already known facts, and also shines some light on some new problems that we have with hardware design. Keep going, I love your content! 🙂

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much wingunder

[@mfierst7326]

Do I like the kind of video's where you discuss topics with different people? Yes!

[@francoismorkel]

Wish I watched this video 15 years ago. Could have saved me a lot of sleepness nights, frustration and money. Thanks Robert and Rick, true legends...

[@abhichokshi496]

Bursted all my myths regarding analog and digital ground. Rob i will remember this video through whole of my career.

[@ai5506]

junior engineer here, what a masterpiece, those calls with rick! thank you and thank rick!

[@hightechsystem_]

It would really amazing to have Rick, you and an ASIC signal integrity expert discussing the differences between signal / power integrity as done inside an ASIC EDA flow, and at the PCB layer, and then discussing the intersection between the two (e.g. decoupling capacitors on die, on package, on PCB, ..)

[@carlchong7592]

The signal to noise ratio on this video is excellent! Thank you for posting this!

[@AlexKarasev]

It's grounded in knowledge and experience and common sense.

[@krisjk999]

Thank you so much Robert. As mentioned by others, its a privilege to listen to you and Rick Hartley. I would highly recommend everyone to watch other talks from Rick as they are gold mines of information. I have only designed few pcbs and the first one i did was a redesign of an existing board and voila I found the dear old split plane. As mentioned by Rick, Prof. Todd Hubing from univeristy of Missouri is also an expert in design for compliance. Possibly an idea for a future call.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Jayakrishnan PS: I placed Prof. Todd Hubbing on my list of possible future talks

[@kestralzoe9310]

An engineer cannot benefit more from those talks with all the valuable experiences. thx!

[@louiskatzclay]

Thank you very much. I am a visual artist and a ham operator. My basic knowlege is low and this sort of video gets me closer to solving problems well. Slowly I am learning to understand them.

[@tunahandinc2890]

i remember you robert before remembering what is impedance, and now you are working on understanding this . Thanks to this effort you re having good guests like Hartley and we all learn new things together.

[@Sajadsaberi-re5ll]

These kinds of videos you are creating are pure gold, thank you Robert.

[@sparqqling]

This is pure gold! Must watch for anyone in EE! This will save you ours in the EMC lab and thousands of dollars.

[@sigfreed11]

These are usually the only types of videos I watch

[@zhitailiu3876]

Every talk with Rick is so precious! Thank you so much, Robert! Maybe more details about USB connection, this always causes me some trouble.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Zhitai

[@bitterescape774]

I love your recorded videos that are done interview style with industry SMEs. The way you ask them questions is helpful in enhancing the video watchers understanding on the topic. Thanks for the awesome interview!

[@andymouse]

So 40 years ago somebody said " split the ground cos its great " and everything was great cos of the low frequency, now we know better, don't split the ground unless you have a real world reason....fantastic video....cheers.

[@godgodgod5035]

Great material. It answers my million $ question of how to connect the Shield layer of a cable and understand connecting the Chassis to earther ground is not important. Thank you!

[@bukitoo8302]

This kind of videos are great! I remember back in 2008 when we have a consultant that taught us a lot desmitifying these kind of subjects.

[@TheCrazyStudent]

Thank you, both of you. I learn a lot from these recorded calls. I hope to see more of them on this channel.

[@gudimetlakowshik3617]

Great video...Rick is one of my favourite persons...I learnt what exactly differential lines mean from his webinar at Altium Live....Thanks for the video robert..!!

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Gudimetla

[@rewq7041]

Thanks for the information with detail explanation, Robert and Rick have done a great job which helps many many people. The grounding issue has been the most critical issue in every PCB layout. Many app notes tell the engineers to split the ground planes and many troubles come from it.

[@nameredacted1242]

Worse yet, I have had people tell me that you DON'T EVEN split the ground for the "classical" ADC example, that it is one ground, and digital one at that, even on the analog side of the chip!!!

[@patteb]

Absolutely GREAT Video! I really dig the "conversation between two experts"-format. Rich dropped knowledge left and right while you kept asking great questions. Many instructional videos on here kinda feel like drawn-out lectures. THIS did not feel like an hour at all. i really enjoyed myself and I am now a better engineer than an hour ago. Thank you!

[@Ghost572]

This video was amazing, the channel is a gold mine for understanding advanced electronics.

[@Hadi-zw9mb]

Hey Robert. I found your channel 2 days ago. I am an RF engineer and try to design some high-speed PCBs, your channel is great. Thank you, you help me a lot.

[@Electromechaniac]

Robert and Rick together - that's awesome!

[@douglasacramer76]

I do enjoy your discussions with experts who share the experiences in solving different problems

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Doug

[@MichelleGianni]

This video is gold for emi and power supply design.

[@thisoldjeepcj5]

I think this will be the best video in all of 2021. Can't remember how many times and how many people just don't or won't get this concept. School of hard knocks, as it were. Best wishes, safety and healthy to both of you. Thank you.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much

[@SakibAhmedSkB]

Mr. Hartley's video on the Altium page changed my whole perspective for wattage flow in a PCB. Thank you, Mr. Feranec for these kinds of videos. Really informative.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Sakib

[@lucadicrescenzo4218]

These videos are the best resources that can help the daily work in these EMI years!!

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Luca

[@alexanderzheligovsky1439]

Awesome video, thank you! It would be interesting to talk about designs that have several galvanically isolated grounds and how not to have EMI problems with them. Do you need a capacitor (and if you do, what value) between the grounds? How do you layout a connector with several isolated grounds in it? What do you do with the cable shield? How do you connect the chassis?

[@gabiold]

We can't thank you enough for these videos!!! I work with electronics since I born, but still these videos clear sooooo many of the confusion gathered through the decades in many rule of thumb or "do this way" kind of instructions where it is very well possible that the author also didn't know exactly what happening or why, just spread the (mis)information. The most well known example is where to tie the shield of the cable. I never thought that the shild AND the chassis at both ends should form a Faraday cage!!! But it is so self-explanatory now that it is a shame I didn't realized that until now! 🤦🏻‍♂️

[@TimVT971]

Thank you Robert. I am in the process of designing a PCB and decided to watch this video, oh boy do I have a lot to think about. So many of the concepts that I have picked up over the years have been challenged. Having designed RF circuits in the past, I was fooled into thinking that I knew how to design for EMI. The RF designs I made were for hand held battery based products. Now that I am doing switch mode power supply design, I have realized I have a lot to learn - Thanks again

[@robertthurman8412]

I have purchased all of Rob's courses (which are amazing) but these one-offs that he creates are just outstanding. Rob... take it from another Rob..."you are the man." Well, you and Rick. I'm working on an EMI and noise problem right now. As another viewer noted. This is gold.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Robert

[@frankgoenninger6958]

Robert, the format these YT posts of you is superb - so please keep doing this. I also highly value you adding additional info. It also helped a lot for me to have Rick's excellent slides for visualizing the issues.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Frank

[@michaelwittmann3176]

very helpful video thank you very much sir :)

[@superalpha]

I remember meting Rick at FTF 2010 when he was at L3. Great guy

[@MichaelLenz1]

Very helpful and valuable information! Exactly what I’m doing right now is the emi and proper grounding.

[@fabianluttenberger7153]

In a recent circuit board design I have to split the ground planes: A regular ground, an galvanically isolated ground, battery ground connected to regual ground via shunt. So splitting is sometimes necessary

[@phil85813]

Really found this useful Robert. Thanks to you and Rick. It's very timely information for a layout I'm working on now using some mixed-signal ICs. Feeling more confident about using a single ground plane and paying close attention to the correct placement of components and routing of traces. BTW - one of the things I learned from Hank Zumbahlen from AD was that mixed-signal IC's that present separate AGND and DGND pins often do so simply because the IC's design can't support an internal connection between the domains - the vendor requires that the AGND to DGND connection for the IC is provided external to the package rather than via internal bond wires. According to Hank the intention is not always that these AGND and DGND pins connect to separate ground planes. Also, would be great to hear Rick's views on analog and digital supplies, the need for separate regulators for analog and digital sections (VDDA, VDDD), where to place ferrites, inductors for filtering etc.

[@22icyo]

fear is never the answer (not exactly, but spirit is there), very well said sir

[@gsuberland]

Extremely excited for this video. Rick's talks have fundamentally changed the way I design PCBs and think about the flow of energy in circuits.

[@gsuberland]

Wow, this turned out to be extremely relevant to me, since I'm currently working on a design that runs four unidirectional RS-485 signal pairs over cat5e or cat6a cables. I've been thinking about whether to go with shielded or unshielded cables, what to connect the shields to (and where), whether or not plastic enclosures were going to be a problem, and how to ground everything. This video answered all of those questions for me!

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Graham

[@RetroSix]

Always learn new stuff you your talks. Knowledge money can't buy, only the years of experience you guys have 😍

[@genabuksuet]

This was the mother of all ground lessons! Amazing value delivered! Keep it up!

[@silentbob19861]

5y of college couldn't teach me that, but Rob could in 1h. Kudos!

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you

[@LuigiLombardi]

I learnt a lot of thing about this topic as an electronics engineering ! Thank you Robert and thank you Rick.

[@bahadryldrm6833]

This video was one of ground breaking videos that I watched. I'm the guy who try find any reason for the separate grounds every. This habit comes from the app notes. In this explanation video, show the just think simple. Thank you so much for the sharing experiences with us.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Bahadır for watching and leaving your feedback.

[@saeidyazdani]

You are the best with the guests you bring in the show!

[@sergeyivanov3453]

There is always something to learn from Rick Hartley

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Sergey

[@mohammad.htarokh2891]

These recorded calls are excellent to learn!

[@orhuntasoglu4808]

Thank you, this was a great watch. It would have been awesome if there were some design examples to demonstrate the principles Mr. Hartley talks about.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Orhun.

[@giannisasp1208]

Extremely interesting video Robert! There are no words to describe Rick Hartley... He is just amazing!!!

[@51kOm]

Very interesting, useful and relevant information for me. For a long time, I recommend your channel to all my friends and colleagues. Thank you very much.

[@gbdjski231]

Wow! This is pure gold! Thank you!! I thought I was the only one thinking USB is shit, I had huge problems in the past with currents flowing through the shield and all sorts of ESD problems because of that. More from Rick please!!!

[@mateuszrosner8258]

Great idea with this kind of videos, it allows us to meet many specialists and see diferent points of views :) looking forward another lesson!

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Mateusz

[@kumu2024]

Thank you very much for the video. The problem with adapters are huge. Most of the time, the GND is NOT even connected and you get all kind of noises due to that. They have only 2 pins and at the DC-jack you have a power that has no way to filter noises to PWR line GND. Think about all your moible phone adapters with 2 pins only.

[@jasmenelee]

Fantastic Robert..plz continue these marvelous series in future.

[@manojkumarsubramaniam7122]

i absolutely like these kind of video, I highly like this and the one with Eric.Thanks both

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much manojkumar

[@sirtobi6006]

I have one reason to split grounds. If you have two power systems that you want to keep isolated - galvanically isolated. Or you design a fully isolated power supply. In that case if I have to speak between those systems you use coupled coils or optical signals accross the split.

[@CesarABB1]

Thank you very much for these kind of videos, they are really useful, this is the best channel for PCB designers

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Cesar for nice words.

[@EDGARDOUX1701]

This is mind blowing Rob! Hope to see more of this kind. Thank you for sharing.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Edgar for watching

[@0ldenn]

Great video ! Your question are always on point, and Rick's explanations are put in a way that makes them so easy to understand, almost "obvious". Thank you so much !

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much drumn incolor

[@rogerburdi3767]

Great video. It confirmed some of my paradigms on EMC, broke a couple of my paradigms and I learned a few things as well! Great guest too!

[@sergeyafanasev7505]

Dear Robert! It's good format and amazing topic, thanks to you and Mr. Rick! One of my first serious boards was single phase power meter with ground common live wire, shunt in live and current transformer in neutral, capacitor divider plus dc/dc in power supply, high bit ADC.... It took me 6 iterations of the board to pass 1.2/50 us 6kV tests. After all, it was amazing practice, that costed me few gray hairs.

[@ultrarichie]

Damn! 2:45 and Rick already demystied it! You guys are two of the greatest.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Ricardo

[@666aron]

Great video, and amazing timing. I'm just designing a drone circuit, where there is a buck converter with integrated FET, and I was going on the wide tracks + split power/signal ground method. After watching the video, I had to redo the layout and routing. I just couldn't let it be there :).

[@nameredacted1242]

There is a PDF available on the internet on exactly that topic! Presentation-6D - PCB Carolina PCBC2018-6D_Rick_Switcher Layout.pdf

[@jakobhalskov]

I really like this format and love Rick's no bullshit attitude ! :)

[@husseinahmed4842]

Thanks to both of you, For sharing your knowledge and experience.

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much Hussein

[@johnblackburn3920]

Excellent video giving extremely sound advice that I found helpful. Can I make a suggestion, why not look at the subject of ESD {Electrostatic discharge} too as that is of interest to many of your viewers. I'm sure Rick Hartley would have much to say on this subect also. I have seen many misunderstandings of the difference between current flow and energy transfer in circuits.

[@IgorChudakov]

Great video!!! And yes, separating AGND is needed as Rick said. Mostly if analog signal is low. :) Would it possible to find how and where Rick connects AGND and GND? May be several examples? Is there possible to download his presentations that been used in this video?

[@RobertoAlcantara]

One of the best videos about this topic . Well done Robert!

[@eriks626]

In RF ASK system I used to separate the RF ground from other parts of circuit, since the regulation require >90dBc of spurious noise, and >110dBc noise level for make sure system meet performance requirement.

[@nurahmedomar]

Very nice video. I got so many shocking answers from this video, yet Rick explained it justly. I was a Customer according to the joke until now, I hope I become a real Engineer starting today! I learned so many things, thanks, Robert.

[@erikmjelde4428]

I love this video. I've now watched it multiple times! I want it engrained in my head!

[@zhitailiu3876]

When I watch this video again, I found that between 48:07 and 48:16, there are lots of important slides concerning IO board design. Such a great pity that Rick and Robert had no time to go through this part! Does anyone know where we can find this part of materials that Rick, or some other great guys, talked somewhere else? For example, concerning an ethernet RJ45 design, one can find lots of seemingly contradictory app notes, telling you connecting system ground and chassis ground with 0Ohm resistors and/or caps and/or inductors. Or telling you make a ground cut out between magnetic and RJ45 or not.

[@georgechatzidakis3111]

Perfect video Robert! Rick is a guru on EMI. Keep up the great job! Thanks!

[@gregcooler]

I did similar design, join the AGND and DNGD under the codec. I have a metal chassis and it's all grounds. No EMC or integrity problems.

[@Tomciosz94]

Robert, this video is a great portion of knowledge and is served in thw best way that I ever dreamt. I hope, that such videos will be uploaded periodically on Your chanel. So, I have to see rest of your videos.

[@abhi2138]

Thank you Robert & Rick for sharing valuable experiences. When we have discussion with subject matter experts, aways we get perfect knowledge. I appreciate if you prepare videos on pcb layout of high voltage dc dc converter (onboard charger for electric vehicle). If you have already created such power electronics layout videos please let me know...

[@pnjunction5689]

Finally found the time to watch this. This is fantastic information. Again, thanks for the time and effort you put into these videos!

[@GrafLimon]

Thank you Robert for sharing the true knowledge with pcb designers all around the world!

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you Dmirtrij

[@prashanthb6521]

These discussions are very interesting.

[@bogdan1543]

Great video! Would be nice to have similar conversation with more details about the shielding of analog front ends, like input's of 24bits ADCs and things like that in metallic, and, especially, plastic enclosures! ESD protection of such front ends also is very interesting. At least I didn't find any definitive statements on that but always some general things and even contradictory sometimes. Waiting for the next videos!

[@Packer1290]

I've always been a fan of a single ground plane. This almost always assures that all your traces have a return path directly underneath it. Think 3D.....Meaning any current loop is no bigger than the length of the trace + distance between layers.

[@martylawson1638]

Never had to deal with EMI and RFI certifications, but have had to tolerate a Pockels cell switching 10-50cm away. 3Kv 15ns edges get EVERYWHERE. (and can drive amps of stray current through parasitic capacitance) Most often though, a solid ground plane and grounding everything to the metal optical bench was good enough. If I ever need better though, this video points the way! (rarely had signal frequencies above 10MHz, or 3.3v edges faster than 0.8ns)

[@romancharak3675]

Super fascinating Video ! Thank you Rick Hartley and Robert Feranec.

[@rafflderchef]

Thank you, your videos provide very good insights, I have learned a lot from them. This format is good for an afternoon watch. Maybe you could do additional videos that sum up one or more calls for a quick briefing on a topic

[@RobertFeranec]

Thank you very much udewbe

[@Svistofication]

Best video I have seen in a while. With a great speaker!

[@Slartibartfas042]

Great Video - it raised quite some "hmm, I think I'll might have to think of that again!" because there were quite some aspects I did not have on my radar. THANK YOU to both, to Rick Hartley and you, Robert, for raising such highly important (and I think interesting!) aspects that I feel are widely ignored or are prown to common problems. THX a lot, love videos like that.