The Great Rivals Debate feat. Samito, Spilo & AVRL

[@GroupUp]

This episode was recorded on 24th May 2024. Podcast links below! If you're enjoying this content, why not let SVB know on his stream (www.twitch.tv/svb_ ) The best way to support the podcast is still www.patreon.com/svb Soundcloud: soundcloud.com/ow_svb/great-rivals-debate Spotify: open.spotify.com/show/6sRWutKTc0gnWuguo62Vpa Apple Podcasts: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/svbs-group-up/id1490256265

[@cl4709]

SVB is right at the end when he says “we don’t know how good we had it when dive was meta for so long that it got stale.” I’m paraphrasing, but a meta where skill was rewarded that got stale is a good problem when compared with the problems modern overwatch has.

[@sakitoshi]

nah, getting dived as a support sucks. i prefer anything but a hard dive meta.

[@FlightX101]

Dive is the best meta since nearly all characters can be viable

[@Doople]

Tipple DPS ball meta was actually the peak

[@Ardyrezv]

@@sakitoshiget good ?

[@cl4709]

@@Doople I agree, honestly.

[@Summonick2]

One thing about hog having that much health, damage reduction and healing is that if you lose 1-2 players, you might become mathematically unable to kill him anymore depending on your comp.

[@garikek]

Yep. He already has literally 2000 effective hp. 800 natural + 800 from dmg reduction during vape + 400 that vape heals.

[@JesusNav]

Lmao spilo with that background

[@TheRitva26]

i knew the kids will find it funny

[@jeffe2267]

flats looks skinny in it

[@zombievikinggaming4258]

​@@jeffe2267It's because he doesn't lift, so his arms are skinny for a big guy

[@mfpow_]

i like how the debate didn't spiral into a 5v5/6v6 debate even though i really want people to understand why want 6v6; i feel like it was brought up when it mattered. i agree with samito the debate has gotten out of hand some creators even insulting the other side

[@chuddyduddy]

Good it wasn't talked about because it's a waste of time. 6v6 discssion is irrelevant it's not going back. Get over it

[@ducasse8473]

The 6v6 thing was stupid to begin with. And many of the people who argued against it, would frequently bring up how the topic would crwate serious divisions in the community. It's nuts that it got to this point. And it's nuts that its even bleeding into marvel rivals now.

[@dannyhernandez112]

5v5 is what was stupid to begin with. When Overwatch was originally developed before any changes were made to the OG game. The devs tested several different formats and determined that 6v6 was the best one and built the game around that. Having role lock makes the format even more important than no role lock and somehow these devs thought 5v5 would be a good format. 5v5 only slightly works with no role lock and is a bad format with role lock. This never needed changing 6v6 has always been the perfect format for Overwatch.

[@魚-c3d]

​@@ducasse8473arguing for the healthiest format for the game is not stupid. Now of course it has to be done with respect to the other side

[@defaultdan7923]

true, people really need to calm down. there should be nowhere near as much hostility between both sides as there is

[@Matchuii]

Making reaper have an ability where he can throw his guns at people before reloading would be amazing

[@mrminiature11]

Downright funny too, just adds to his grumpy character.

[@dumass804]

I made a suggestion like this a while ago. Just make his alternate fire throwing both guns (40dmg each, about the same size and speed as a sym ball) and then he reloads like normal. Obviously it wouldn't have infinite range like sym though, maybe a bit longer than a junkrat grenade

[@Real_MisterSir]

or an emote where he opens up a shop and sells his guns to let other players use them once each.

[@keeganbate8935]

​@@mrminiature11he should do a dark chuckle after bonking people with them

[@nonipplenoah6179]

@@Real_MisterSirjust play echo lmao i like the idea though just don’t think i’d play the game because i’d be trying to sell at my shop💀

[@ziggy2metalx720]

Avrl had a lot of insanely bad takes here. He would rather have the option of removing the tank role instead of improving it. Like wtf, he said to make it feel like other fps games. My guy, if I wanted to play another fps game, I would play either apex, call of duty or battlefield. This is overwatch. Tanks is what separates overwatch from other fps games and makes it unique. Why does he want to take that uniqueness away?

[@garikek]

He's been gaslit. How every game is 5v5, tank is "problematic" in every game etc. All that shit gets to people. Even this time svb couldn't restrain from mentioning for the 50th time the same damn bullshit about tanks being bad in all games.

[@lordmew5]

​@@garikekhe isn't gaslit he is legitimately ignorant of other games. Literally, all of them are because people who like mobas are an extremely niche group who are in total opposition with what shooter players want.

[@Shzl47]

@@garikek what game has tanks as a popular role amongst its playerbase?

[@garikek]

@@Shzl47 ow1 when sigma, orisa and hot aren't 10 times better than rein, zarya, monkey. Shills bring up that argument to stray away from the fact that tank as a role has been ruined by awful balancing in ow1 and followed up by removing 1 of them in ow2, and to just say that "tanks are bad in all games guys, the problem isn't in overwatch, it's just how it is", which is so wrong. October 2020 patch has shown that tank can easily be a popular role when FUN and FAIR heroes are viable. Ain't nobody wanna play fucking orisa, sigma, hog. Yet those 3 were perma op in ow1 ever since role lock came out. I don't play every single game that has tanks in it, and it doesn't even matter if the argument is right or wrong, it's used to gaslight and move away from the problem. Problem is balance, immortalities, sustain, and all these are yet to be addressed, in fact devs only add more of each of that stuff. As an analogy: you have a Toyota Prius and you have problems with your battery after 5k km. You're mad, but a salesman comes up to you and says: "It sucks, but every brand has cars that malfunction. It sucks man, but it's a universal problem". Instead of addressing the present issue that is solvable (you can fix the battery, you can fix tank role (as shown by October 2020 patch)) the sentiment is that the issue is universal so you just have to eat it up. Which is quite clearly bullshit.

[@Shzl47]

@@garikek OW1 is a bad example because it was hard to get 2 players to play tank pre-role-lock. It's literally the reason they did a 1-3-2 experiment. Both Game Directors have admitted this.

[@shubu42069]

Hog nerf is a slap on the wrist at best. Idk why the dev team is so obsessed with letting this character remain meta. Not just hog but all passive playstyle tanks that have terrible risk/reward balance.

[@bentocod]

No i think tanks should be like that to an extent

[@Iron-Blurr]

it's not hogs fault they buffed the tank passive instead of individual tanks(hog players did not ask for headshot damage reduction or less knockback on tanks making whole hog nuke tanks), nerfed orisa(his counter), went to 5v5(no OT to peel for hooked players) and Suzu exists which bails out hog when he gets anti naded by ana.

[@thedofflin]

​@@bentocodI just want you to know you're wrong and I have no intention to debate further

[@brodyross4941]

I think it’s bc generalist tanks are the only ones that can survive in 5v5

[@brodyross4941]

@@u-5-v9i I think the overwatch 2 balance team is way better than ow1. You can’t fix these issues through balance. It’s a 5v5 issue

[@cavemanchonny]

sam needs to be on for the tank debate if possible, the 6 v 6 argument is very much a large viewpoint in the tank community and he's our best representative (also playing lots of tank recently). also 3:24:02 wideVB

[@P-39_Airacobra]

He's even a DPS player tho, it's a shame we don't have more tank mains speak out as well

[@JJay7042]

Agree

[@WorldKeepsSpinnin]

@@P-39_Airacobra Hes mainly a DPS player, but hes top 500 on all roles, he plays all roles nearly equally and understands them all well.

[@soccerjedi69]

@@P-39_Airacobrathe OW community is too soy for Samito. It’s funny bc he’s not even some raging right wing lunatic either. Just someone with a strong and well-versed opinion

[@rare9242]

@@soccerjedi69 you dont have to be a right winged lunatic to be a raging dumbass. his last 20 vids are ragebait and hes just farming overwatch frustration for money. its mega cringe

[@fettbub92]

I'm glad y'all are still keeping the discussion going. This podcast always reminds me of what the ESPN talk shows once were. The passion and "inside look" aspect is always fun.

[@BigMamaBlack]

Great guest group. Varied opinions. Good takes.

[@FBBvivaj]

Overwatch needs to tune down the aspects of abilities that operate in absolutes (biotic grenade=no healing, hack=no abilities, immortality field=no eliminations, suzu=impervious, magnetic grenade=no movement, etc) and instead operate similarly but in a non-absolute value. Afterward balance/tune-down those who benefit from the change (mauga, hog, ball, flankers, one shots, etc etc).

[@palloae]

I been saying this man thank you. It’s a huge part of the frustration players express all the time and why some heroes can’t exist between the extremes of broken op or dogshit. It’s a big part of why counter picking is so powerful. These abilities deny interactions completely and create disadvantages that cannot be responded to at all, which removes skill as a relevant factor, which creates frustration. Ppl just aren’t connecting the dots or don’t care. And when you point out how harmful abilities like anti nade are for the game there will be people who defend the ability just because of hero identity bs or just because they don’t like the idea of change.

[@DriplessShrimp]

Completely agree! Biotic 50% less healing on tank 75% on others. Hack blocks one button for a little longer duration. Hinder slows cd recovery and movement speed a little. All immos should be reworked. Kiri step needs los. Suzu burst heal remove and only cleanses with a little shorter cd.

[@jinxx8456]

@@palloae Go play Call of Duty or Battlefield then. Just because you have an ability doesn't mean you should get it off for free. They don't deny any interactions, they make you think and time them. Y'all just refuse to learn how to think first.

[@CZAR.6]

MAKE SPILO AND SAMITO PERMANENT CHAIRS

[@CrippsyS]

HELL NO TO SAMITO. Man just insults anyone who disagrees and cries on about the 6v6 debacle.

[@CZAR.6]

@@CrippsyS okay Custa, lol. Every time Samito is on the pod he’s super respectful and contributes meaningfully to the conversation.

[@reapfield8687]

Fr, the logical vs emotional counterbalance

[@bambampewpew32]

@@CrippsyS do you even watch these debates??? lmfao

[@bambampewpew32]

@@reapfield8687 spilo has logical, samito has both lol

[@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord]

So that dude Avrl would rather get rid of tanks rather than go back to 6v6?

[@202adr]

Its a good option if they force 5v5 to stay, cause its not gonna work with 3 roles or how tanks are at the momment

[@CesarCaballero-ui8tp]

@@202adrit would probably make the game better but people who only play the game for tank like me would probably leave the game so idk if they would risk it tbh

[@魚-c3d]

Going back to 6v6 would be significantly better, however you have to grant him that in a 5v5 format making tanks squishier and closer to DPS characters would probably be a good direction for the role. Then of course I don't fully agree with it to the point of "getting rid of tanks".

[@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord]

@@魚-c3d like bro are you having brain fog they had to buff the tanks defense. Because tank player can't play tanks if they are squishy. What your talking about is just removing the tank role and before we get to that we should try to 6v6.

[@hawkeyemihawkgettingmoneylord]

@@202adr but why force 5v5? They went 5v5 because they said it would be easier to patch. Clearly that was a lie go so lets go back.

[@haku4841]

People are also missing the fact that not only do you have to 2 shot headshot as hanzo now but you also have to 3 SHOT BODY SHOT it’s kinda ridiculous how his dmg break points have been both increased by 100% and 50%

[@garikek]

All because a bunch of delusional redditors with the shittiest movement and positioning died to Hanzo a couple of games and couldn't endure putting the blame on themselves. So sad to see a hero get gutted and turned into a tank shooting bot just because mentally disabled by choice people dislike it.

[@defaultdan7923]

yup. i really don’t understand why they immediately went to gutting him. it means spam is the only viable way to play. they could’ve done anything else; nerf story arrows, increase draw time, nerf his health (like widow), but instead they made him less fun.

[@ForbidenXShadow]

Hanzo being trash is good for the game, sorry not sorry

[@RIP_ZYZZ1738]

@@ForbidenXShadowI think you’re part of the reason this dev team is confused on how to balance. Something annoying you doesn’t mean it should get patched 😂

[@bambampewpew32]

@@RIP_ZYZZ1738 FOR REAL, many annoying things have existed since the beginning of overwatch, they should only get patched when ACTUALLY too strong, we've lost so much identity over this "remove every annoying thing" mentality

[@1DanteadamS1]

The "reduce tank health and dissolve the role into dps" idea is literally just current open queue, isn't it?

[@dequanndillard7932]

Yeah but open queue isn't balanced. All tanks just have 150 HP deducted from their total. So junkerqueen gets super shafted while hog isn't really changed to much.

[@serthiag7373]

Yeah no one really thinks about open queue tho

[@GetQuakedOn]

52:10 big facts

[@hexia6760]

If only this was the direction they're taking the game.

[@ow8991]

Love this lineup. Would be crazy to see a 5 man lineup special episode with flats on here too. Great episode

[@altfemboy3109]

Im a mercy main and my favourite playstyle has always been the triage type playstyle where i fly from person to person trying to always look for damage beam value or to save someone. Pocketing is often one of the more boring playstyles but thats just me

[@Coachteach]

This is literally what all mercy mains say. Even on this podcast. Repeatedly. There is no reason for these guys to be confused, it's so weird.

[@xEmjey]

As long as dmg boost exist + dps chars like sojourn / ashe / pharah / echo. The pocket only 1 person playstyle will never die. U can choose to not pocket them and fly around instead but dont cry if u have 40% winrate then.

[@zc8673]

I feel the same way about Brig. It's sad for me to see my girl become more and more of an AFK shieldbot/heal dispenser. I want to bash around the battlefield brawling.

[@altfemboy3109]

@@xEmjey if anything too many mercy's hyper focus on pocketing even with a good pocket, they'll let their entire team die just to heal up a pharah or echo behind cover with 10 hp remaining

[@altfemboy3109]

@@zc8673 I think one way to achieve that would be to decrease her ult charge needed for her rally. I find rally to be kinda mid in regards to ults since it doesn't give armor anymore to her team so I usually use it to make myself a tiny tank when the fights getting hectic. Works pretty well for me cause I used to play a lot of rein so my shield management is top tier lol. But it would allow her to have more moments of stepping up to make a play or stepping to save someone. I feel like it would help a lot with her gameplay loop

[@zombievikinggaming4258]

Samito always needed on these

[@kayanono]

He is very unbearable alot of times so idk

[@mckookie2967]

truth hurts ​@@kayanono

[@CrippsyS]

@@mckookie2967Naa Samito is condescending, angry, wrong half the time. Remember when he “quit” OW2 and was back 1 week later? 🤣 man just says whatever makes the most views.

[@kayanono]

@@mckookie2967 LMAO😭 Im talking about his constant insulting of people and his ragebait yt stuff, not his 6v6 opinion. Respectfully, stf u

[@muaadhgilani9740]

​@@CrippsySdont think he's been wrong about a single thing💀

[@austinmcmahan6267]

This is an insane lineup, good guests! love this one already

[@Mika-xw1xp]

Hey! The last Comment from the AMA was from me! The response i got was sadly nothing special and didnt really answer anything My Comment wasnt only about Counterswapping i also asked about how Confident the Devs are about fixing these unhealthy tank designs like Hog orisa and Mauga which arent fixable by simple number changes like the headshot reduction etc. Sadly it seems like that they completely ignored that part of my question

[@Flash2icey2676]

Yeah I agree their answer felt very lackluster and looked like they were trying to avoid answering that question

[@alexquitty809]

28:35 `They wanna save everybody` Hanzo: am I hearing this right?

[@garikek]

Hanzo, genji, rein, mercy: "am I a joke to you?"

[@headecas]

Junk:can i join?

[@bradhurtz9173]

I like how every complaint yall had with hog would be fixed by going back to 6v6 lmfao

[@nidoqu33n]

it’s funny how by the fact that all of them concurred that he was a problem in overwatch 1 and it was the exact same problem that your comment is factually incorrect hahahah lmfao

[@bradhurtz9173]

@@nidoqu33n Hog was never a problem with 2tanks.

[@nidoqu33n]

@@bradhurtz9173yea i’m glad you clearly didn’t watch the video but hog has always been a problem, problem doesn’t mean OP

[@bambampewpew32]

@@bradhurtz9173 nah I mean he was but only cause they made him more forgiving, the 50% damage resist wasn't needed while he could 1 shot, and when he couldn't move while healing he was totally fine

[@MsElViktor]

A debate on a topic that doesn't make up 50% of the video? That's the definition of a debate

[@IHJello]

That's a hilarious observation 😂

[@revenge977]

I think it's supposed to be another tank debate, but decided to title it as a marvel rivals debate for some reason.

[@loppolman3353]

Regarding Hanzo - Make LONG range able to one shot, but lower his close range damage. My annoyance playing against hanzo is he can one shot SPAM and insta kill at close, mid and long range. And with his logs, at close range is was RNG sometimes whether he instakills you or you get to kill him. Let him still spam long range, but it lets one get close to him without the worry of a one shot, it forces him to keep his distance, but he stil has storm arrow to help him defend himself at close range and burst down tanks.

[@garikek]

And nerf his projectile size. It's super silly. Every time I shoot I can clearly see it's 30 centimeters away from the hitbox but I get the hitmark... Should also remove more of those random oneshots.

[@RIP_ZYZZ1738]

Don’t do this bullshit. Just him his original one shot power and make his shot hitbox smaller than everyone else’s

[@Highstar7331]

@@garikek Without his projectile size, he's got nothing. Taking it away would require giving him something.

[@garikek]

@@Highstar7331 yeah, his oneshot headshot and twoshot bodyshot. But regardless of whether he has it or not, his current projectile size is braindead. It literally hitmarks when you clearly miss by a mile. Imo that's just boring.

[@TheTomKatt92]

I don't get why people are upset about another overwatch competitor. Competition usually makes you try harder because there's something to 'lose'. I think a lot of people will play both games anyways.

[@lordmew5]

Because overwatch is bad and most overwatch players know this so legit competition is dangerous

[@dumbly-stupid]

​@lordmew5 that's good because it means the devs will actually have to try

[@bambampewpew32]

@@lordmew5 lmao dangerous?? who cares bruh, let overwatch have reasons to change for the better, we know a LOT of people haven't been happy with overwatch 2 for a little while now

[@ChimpRevolution]

​@lordmew5 competition is good for the space look at xdefiant because of its success BO6 is talking about making SBMM weaker

[@ObeseWizard]

1:01:29 I get what you're saying SVB, and I think it's neat that DOTA changes things up a lot, but I really don't think that would work with Overwatch. The reason it works for DOTA is that it's such a hardcore game - there aren't many people who just play DOTA casually. So by completely reinventing the game's mechanics every once in a while, they keep the sweatlords appeased and interested. If you did this in Overwatch, I think you would demolish the casual playerbase. The higher ranks would probably have a blast with it, but the lower ranks would suffer and ragequit.

[@Jae_JETT]

18:34 Just go back to 6v6 what the fuck are we talking about rightnow. Are we legitimately asking to make tanks into DPS??

[@AbbyAZK]

This has been a talking point for Hog in 6v6 too buddy.

[@eagerinspirit]

​@@AbbyAZK It's a bad point is the important thing there. A DPS won't exist with hook. It's just outside the fundamental design philosophy for Overwatch. So you're basically saying kill the character.

[@ziggy2metalx720]

It’s annoying when people say roadhog feels out of place in overwatch because they’re forgetting to imply, “out of place in overwatch 2”. Of course roadhog feels like shit because he’s the only tank. Roadhog wasn’t as problematic in overwatch 1 when we had two tanks. Yeah he had high damage and could punish people out of position but he had many downsides. He was a ult battery for the other team and his heal and ult can be canceled easily. Now he can do it all and is not fun to play with or against It’s just 5v5 that’s the problem not roadhog

[@AbbyAZK]

@@ziggy2metalx720 This is true but lets not kid ourselves, Roadhog was 100% problematic in OW1 as well, not as much because counterplay was much better there than it is in 5v5 Hog.

[@ziggy2metalx720]

@@AbbyAZK that’s why I said as problematic . Yes he had problems but like i pointed out, he also comes with many weaknesses. Now he has almost no weakness besides Ana nade that can be negated by kiriko. The difference between roadhog in ow1 and ow2 is so extreme that ow1 hog feels like a saint balance wise in comparison.

[@leul1551]

2:59:22 one that’s nice about open queue is that in many OG paladins metas, teams could run 2 tanks or one tank with 2 damage (+1 flank and +2 supports always) depending on vibes, although I think overall 2 tanks was historically the strongest comp (and tank was the least popular role ofc)

[@matthewjungmann12]

What if they shortened Beam tether length for Mercy, but made it stronger? Forces her to stay closer, relocate more to stay attached, but sharpens the risk/reward ratio for using the beam.

[@3amAfterlife]

I don't play Mercy much but I enjoy having her in the game. The movement aspect of her is unique in an fps and I think makes the game accessible to a much wider base. I also think avrl has a good long term balance philosophy. The allure of grinding a hero to a crazy skill level is great for the game's longevity imo

[@badanalysis]

Great episode! Loved the marvel rivals talk.

[@TunaCanned]

The segment where they talked about lower ranks not knowing how to play around Wrecking Ball is too true, but goes for other tanks as well. As someone who is a returning OW1 player and just got back to OW2 in season 9 and climbed out of Silver 1 to Plat 3 currently, lower Metal ranks for some reason (must be psychological) really can't play around tanks like Ball, Doom and JQ. They are so used to seeing a shield that most can't fathom cover or target priority when their tank is diving and a lot will sit back, watch their tank die and type "tank diff". I mean theres alot of reasons why theyre low metal rank and thats one of the main ones. Support your tanks people, and make your own plays.

[@douglasnienberg7968]

I think that hanzo is salvageable with just a minor rework. Increase primary fire damage to 130 on a full charge. Decrease crit hit multiplier to 1.5x. Get ride of the lung cool down and make it reset on landing like genji double jump. Give sonic arrow an effect that grants hanzo 2.5 times crit damage to targets within the area of effect call the effect hunters mark. Give an effect to his ult that anyone who takes damage from it is seen through walls and has a hunters mark 2.5x crits from hanzo.

[@RIP_ZYZZ1738]

So you’re saying make him a bitch to play? And remove his one shot entirely? This sounds like an avoidant fix that will gut the player base because it lacks the identity of the hero that people loved in the first place. He never an issue before

[@CoconutYoyo]

They should test hanzo with a poison arrow as part of the kit. Damage over time effect after the initial flat damage. Not sure if this should be standard or maybe like the last arrow in his storm arrow cluster? Something where he could have the ability to deal the one-shot type damage but the last portion of the damage is damage over time which could be countered with healing from enemy. It could also do nothing at all...not sure?

[@lruddy8820]

i think we need to reevaluate how we look at/play tanks...ive stopped playing tank as a space creator dmg mitigater and started playing tank in a way SVB discribed i few months ago, (i dont play these games so i dunno how it works in those games) but he said in some mobas there are character that enable other characters at different part of the game so in turn they can enable you and let you carry later, the im gonna use all my resources on you now so you can build ult take specific positions and then when the time comes you need to dump all your resources into me so i can carry you across the finish line to the W, im gonna do everything i can to make sure ana can farm nano but when she gets nano you better give it to me with a nade and a sleep dart thrown at the person im dueling or ill do everything i need to to make sure soldier gets to the position he needs to be but then its my turn to engage you better be popping visor to follow up on the pressure im putting on and firing helix rockets at the person im dueling, ill use my resources for you so you can in turn use your resources on me

[@SocialDesignFlaw]

Not sure when it happened, but Avrl has gotten much stronger vibes/takes for game design across the board over the last few episodes he's been on, so kudos to him. He's absolutely right about the TTK structure of the game I.E - Headshots. 2x modifier for critical hits is not only problematic when it comes to instant damage application (looking at you Hitscans) but also, highly problematic for heroes who DON'T have access to criticals, because those heroes need to have compensating base damage just to keep up. This is where your Pharahs/Junkrats/Bastions/Reapers come into play, increasing the frustration playing against them all the more (especially in the broader MMR/Lower Rank tiers). Add in the cognitive load issues that a Multiplier inside what should be a simple addition/subtraction of percentages, and it's a largescale headache- all while having to acknowledge that 2X? Is the standard! It's the lowest (barring Sojourn's railgun which is an exception that proves the rule), with some heroes multiplying to even higher damage potential! 2X should be the maximum limit, bringing the total TTK (potential damage, in Design terms) down across the board and, thus, providing way more opportunities for broader, more creative kits-...and if you really want to get into the meat of it, they should be converted into Range-based Percentages (I.E - the closer you are to an enenmy > the Larger the Hitbox > the lower the crit percentage should be).

[@ReaperReginald]

Is there a channel where these discussions are posted with audible volume? It's SOOOOO quiet and I usually set these on while I'm driving

[@Woopinah]

Yeah idk why but this episode in particular has very poor audio mixing

[@filipesimoes1343]

I remember I wrote about making a 5v5 2 per role on Reddit and people called me crazy ;-; ( The ONLY difference is that I wanted a role preference thingy, that would make sure u have at least 1 person willing to play every role and max 2 wanting to play The same, it would make matchmaking more flexible and Faster while maintaining match quality)

[@thepoofster2251]

What did I just read?

[@Dario11457]

I actually can’t believe AVRL would rather remove tanks than go back to 6v6, like did this guy ever even like overwatch in the first place??

[@mega17]

Part of what makes tank archetype work in LoL is you can have more than one. People can choose the comp they want.

[@thesquirtlesquad8446]

1:51:30 Yes typically people who play tank in other games understand they won’t be dealing much damage, but in the same game support classes don’t deal damage either. So if we go down that road people will complain that the dps are the only ones who can kill and back to nobody queueing for other roles. Everyone wants to get kills or outplay, that is usually how people have fun in shooters. Sp if you take away the damage from tank will you give them CC because health will not help their agency or feel of impact from a player perspective.

[@STartist.]

2:02:45 I like this idea. Could be tied into adaptive shields as well and use the same button for this parry, a normal usage gives less shield, a successful parry gives more maybe? There would have to be a way to make this more general so that if a team isn't running something that can be parried you don't suffer for it. I don't know about it being a general damage parry but I like the concept.

[@J.R.Swish1]

One topic I'd enjoy being covered one day here would be about how new heroes compare to the original OW cast and how some of the old guys have been left behind and become obsolete, like Rein, Genji, Junkrat, Reaper, Cass, Bastion, Hanzo, Mercy... and debate how these heroes can be changed to catch up to the rest of the new OP characters.

[@Dezatron-]

Pick rates and win rates don't tell the whole story. Because it's a team game. Also, counter swap.

[@hubbabubba-tw6gy]

Marval rivals is gonna pop off it looks too damn fun

[@richrich6409]

Been waiting on this one 😊🎉

[@King_Gaiseric]

Took me 41 minutes & 27 seconds to realize AVRL's background 💀👍

[@ObeseWizard]

Oooo boy I'm lookin forward to this it should be spicy, thanks SVB

[@Tankology73]

Avrl really didn't know about baby mauga? Lol

[@harrisonfelice8160]

I used to coach gm like bottom of tier 3 teams back in 2018/2019 and what spilo said about pro feedback is so true and funny. A lot of it is how young and passionate they are. They lack the variety of perspectives that people in their 20's and 30's have

[@darkstrife1]

Such a good debate yesterday, so I'm here to see it a second time

[@mega17]

Hate that we're "banning" the 6v6 debate, just because it feels too extreme when more talk is what may push it over the edge and get the devs considering it.

[@thepoofster2251]

Its boring and it will never be implemented, that's why

[@Bry1an]

@@thepoofster2251 5v5 is certainly working as well as 6v6 huh

[@thepoofster2251]

@@Bry1an it's working better if you look at the original reasons why it was implemented. Queue times are short and visual clutter is lessened, you gotta think like a dev not an angry player

[@Bry1an]

​@@thepoofster2251 hey if they want to make the game worse because casuals cant follow whats happening in the pro scene, thats them. queues times are quite literally the same now even with the massive amount of changes INCLUDING making the game free. so thats worthless

[@thepoofster2251]

@@Bry1an queue time are a lot quicker for high Elo players and bronze. That was the issue in OW1. When streamers start to quit it makes regular players drop off a bit as the game slowly dies. That's how games hollow out and queue times become an issue. This is currently not happening due to 5v5 being implemented (also this has nothing to do with wide queue, that's a seperate issue. The visual clutter issue is better now and it's not a change for casual play, it's mostly to make the game more easy to watch. Games with a shit load of stuff going on are hard to get into and draw in new players also. If you are going to approach the 5v5 vs 6v6 issue as "clearly solved for 6v6", then you aren't looking at things which devs focus on to maintain the health of the game. There are genuine benefits to both 5v5 and 6v6. Saying one is clearly better for "objective" reasons is just an opinion made in either bad faith or ignorance. That's my opinion tho, sorry for the book report hahaha

[@dashvash5440]

I'm convinced that Mirror Watch contained character talent trees/specs. Which would be awesome, spec into shadow mercy or holy mercy.

[@serthiag7373]

I think the concept of usual drastic changes also really helps bring life back into the game via content creation, when the game has been the same for years on end, the content also stagnates, nothing new to cover nothing new to create

[@Twiffle1]

Blizzard really need to stop just changing things/numbers for the sake of changing things/numbers. Wish these changes would get tested by some actual players before they go live. Right now it has just felt like changes did not get tested at all and then things get reverted back. This can be avoided by just actually testing changes before they go live. Just relying on "This looks good on paper so it should be fine" ain't the way to go about it.

[@rudyramirez125]

Spilo makes every episode he's on. Thank you @svb

[@Fainted-Ikaros]

For the Hanzo recommendations I think that a good idea could be if we buff his damage to where he can two shot on body shot (probably like 125 - 150) and if you get a headshot you get a boost (something like 25 - 50) and he gets either massively reduced draw time or its instant for the next shot.

[@lruddy8820]

one problem with hog is he is super fun to play, super not fun to play against, i get all giddy inside when i play hog the melee symbol comes up on the kill feed with i do the hook shoot melee combo, i kno just that combo doesnt kill anymore and maybe its just nostalgia from a simpler time but getting a kill with that combo feels great, its kinda like playing guitar some songs are super easy to play but are so much fun to play and in both cases its because the input your doing and the feedback your getting from it feels great

[@skigull101]

SVB talking about Roadhog is like Draymond Green talking about Rudy Gobert. The hate makes him incapable of being objective. And I’m not even a hog main! The other guys’ points about how he has too much sustain and should be more glass cannon are spot on exactly what I’ve been saying.

[@jonasdowner]

drawing out a cheap counter before your big energy play is a gaming staple. so is the salt when your opponent has the counter ready when you make the play blind.

[@Crazycazper]

Hot take give every tank a doom block/ Zara bubble type of ability Basically giving them i way to convert damage taken to something else for example damage taken in a certain spot converts to ult charge or cooldown reduction or healing or something

[@SekundesCCFFVII]

I get the counterplay issue on Hog, but when his ult and breather were straight up interruptible, he felt TOO counterable, especially if you add in Ana.

[@vape42069]

Ok so? He absolutely should be punished for misplaying lol It’s thinking like this that is leading this game going to shit 😒

[@SekundesCCFFVII]

@@vape42069 He should be, but the way he was counterable were also ultra easy to pull off, making him hardly playable. And i'm of the belief that a simple cooldown like Flashbang shouldn't cancel a whole Ultimate.

[@garikek]

​@@SekundesCCFFVIIthat's 5v5 for ya, where the tank endures every single ability in the game

[@SekundesCCFFVII]

@@garikek It happened before 5v5 too

[@garikek]

@@SekundesCCFFVII you didn't eat literally every single ability though. Only as a rein if you had a flanking hog as your teammate, but even then hog would eat either sleep or something else.

[@theredguy92]

My biggest problem with current Hanzo is the movement penalty. Movement penalties are to balance snipers but if he is just a mid range hero like cass without a one shot then i dont see the point of the movement penalty. Imagine if cass stood still when he shot 😂

[@THYnameISsarcasm]

Thank you Samito for standing up for the idea of an aim tank. Mauga doesn't need to be this hated hero, he just needs to be more skill based. A version of Mauga that is balanced around single fire and requires good aim to be effective would actually be hype

[@narcodixyadigg781]

My issue with the "block list" idea is who gets to decide what is fundamentally flawed. That also changes wildly based on rank and player perceptions like Spilo mentioned

[@majorcasualties9306]

The problem with comparing tank in MOBA is space does not matter anywhere near as much because aim is not a factor. So tanks have to take high value space in overwatch and be able to survive as well as apply objective pressure. where as league or dota it makes no difference where you fight for the most part

[@KlebinDaBoca]

About the role discussion: Overwatch has never had (and still doesn't have) a clear vision on what tanking and supporting means. Until they figure this out, no format will be good enough, neither 5v5 or 6v6.

[@nahaight1373]

One format is definitely better than the other.

[@KlebinDaBoca]

@@nahaight1373 not objectively.

[@arshnoorsran9191]

@@KlebinDaBoca I would argue 6v6 is objectively better than 5v5. Having two tanks instead of one allows for more variance in how certain tanks are played. It also allows tanks to have certain weaknesses. These weaknesses can then be mitigated by the other tank, leading to a balanced comp that still has individual weaknesses. A duo of Rein and Zarya is a perfect example of this. Rein is great for frontline protection, but weak at filling in gaps. Zarya is bad at frontline protection, but great at filling in the gaps that Rein can’t get to. If a genji is flanking, instead of putting down his shield and leaving the whole team vulnerable to take care of the genji, rein can defend the team from the front while Zarya bubbles the person genji is flanking and deals with him. Individually, they have glaring weaknesses, but together they mitigate it. 5v5 forces tanks, especially tanks like Rein, to be in two places at once. If you stay in the frontline to defend your team from the bulk of the damage, you can’t peel. If you peel, you can’t hold your shield. It is up to your teammates to peel or each other or themselves. And the tanks have ridiculous amounts of hp, and now even take reduced headshot damage and 50% reduced knock back. Blizzard can’t make another tank like Rein who has a glaring weakness because no one will play a tank like that when you can play tanks that are decent in everything. Less uniqueness=more stable but more boring. I am interested in what advantages gameplay wise you believe 5v5 has over 6v6.

[@KlebinDaBoca]

@@arshnoorsran9191 I'm not arguing for which is better. I'm arguing that both are flawed and will still be until they address what they expect roles to do. Arguing that 6v6 is objectively better than 5v5 and vice versa won't move an inch of this discussion. People prefering the flaws of one instead of the other are a whole other beast. Without a clear vision of what each role should conceptually be/have/do anything on a role locked setting will fail. Best regards.

[@202adr]

@@KlebinDaBoca You are right in the flawed aspect, but its not with just the tank role, supports with immortality abilities, and insane cc abilities which are easy to use the negate ultimate's with no skill. Brig Bap and Kiri. But 6v6 is better because the biggest flaw of 5v5 is 3 roles which mean 1 role , becomes a game of which is the best stat character and then the rock paper scissor counters that beat it. Which then forces that 1 role to be buffed to oblivion or get blown up, to then buff aspects of other roles to reduces the impacts, (dps passive heal reduction) while increasing hp for all heroes, after all the buffed healing done to support the one tank. Even if they fix the design, the fact that the roles are uneven makes any kind of attempt of what you are trying to get conceptually in a role locked setting will fail. They either remove tanks or add a tank, its not a 5v5 and 6v6 argument its a tank or no tank argument.

[@GAVIN760101]

36:25 yea I totally agree if dev think one shot on one button is bad then widow should be the first or just make no one can one shot. And there is one things samito mention. Yea statically Hanzo look fine but what cost? You remove all the fun why player chose this character. He was a skill projectile sniper this was what he did and what made him so fun to play. Now every headshot sound effect doesn't give me happy just sad and remind me what I lost. So no matter how static is I will not pick him because there is no fun anymore.

[@aaronolson6736]

on the note of Talents, I would love if the originally planned 3 tiers of talents from OW2 were made real because even if that means you can swap mid-round, that also means you shouldn't need to swap mid-round. A QP Hacked where Tanks can't be headshot but have -150 health would be great to try.

[@mordecaiplatypus4300]

When is the last podcast where SVB doesn't mention Dota 2?

[@hubbabubba-tw6gy]

Never 😂

[@viz5283]

def think the game is way less corridor spammy than OW tbh. The synergies are super cool too, tthe season bonuses are cringe though I agree with him there.

[@garikek]

It looked hella spammy in serious comp matches where everyone ran Groot strange Hela punisher racoon loki. You just had to stand in choke until your Hela got a random 2 tap or an enemy overpushed. But I think it comes down to Loki's ridiculous healing and punisher's and hela's stupid up close damage that destroys any magik/spiderman/black panther (when those heroes are already shit 😂). Just really gotta hope balance devs in rivals aren't as delulu as ow devs, because if they are then the game is fucked in half a year.

[@koalashlok]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I swear Overwatch was supposed to be a MOBA-shooter hybrid not just a shooter...

[@lordmew5]

Overwatch lost its moba identity years ago

[@Highstar7331]

It was. . . but the devs sucked at balancing it, and less invested players didn't//don't care for it. I honestly think the abilities and strategy were what made it so good.

[@koalashlok]

@@Highstar7331 That sucks cuz that was the main reason I got into this game. I was and still am a moba player and liked the fact that there were characters that catered to everyone but it's a shame they're slowly losing their identity and flexibility all moving towards the same healer/ dps/ big dps archetypes

[@drkatz1192]

Around 2:00, when you started talking about the differences between MOBAs and FPS games - ya’ll are cooking. The best and worst part of OW2 is combining FPS & MOBA elements, it’s what makes it unique/cool, but also what makes it frustrating!

[@abduktedtemplar]

Hanzo feels trash in metal ranks.

[@Hsjackow]

Hanzo feels trash in every rank😂

[@nirj5991]

Spilo with the sunglasses "tan"

[@Beanigez]

It’s been far over a year, 5v5 is not working. So many failed patches, go 6v6 and balance supports properly so we can get the game back

[@IssaUserName]

The fantasy for Mercy is that you get to avoid shots like a fucking fairy while supporting your team mates and undoing the kills I get. They can avoid sightlines, making me need to commit ten times more, all while pocketing and healing someone. She turns your need to aim up by a multitude. Also, an AFK kiriko does nothing. An AFK mercy might still be healing or dam boosting.

[@memes3751]

Ramiro here to bring some sense

[@headecas]

I remember when i started playing.jog was meta cause hook and rein cause shield protect from hook Hanzo needs way less dmg,no speed reduction when drawing bow,draw bow faster and even bigger hs mult

[@bluecoat2033]

This is probably the best spread of people you could have for one of these podcast. This was my favorite episode by FAR. Please bring this line-up back 🫡.

[@haku4841]

I’d give hanzo like 5 buffs and 2 nerfs - bow movement speed penalty whilst holding bow from 25% to 20% - bow draw speed increased by 5/10% - dragon strike can kill deployables now - dragon strike dmg increased very slightly 5/10% - can hold charge whilst wall climbing Nerfs - full charge dmg from 120 to 115 - ult charge cost 15% increased

[@garikek]

What does this achieve? Really seems like a lot of random changes paired with a couple of voiced opinions.

[@Hsjackow]

@@garikek I partially agree with this because it's sort of a rework to his identity now. My opinion was always that hanzo should keep the one shot, but if not, this is the other route they can experiment with. Making him do less damage, faster fire rate, and less movement penalty when charging an arrow to make him less of a sniper character more like a Cassidy with bow. This is also a bit problematic because it means he will always be worse than Cassidy because he is projectile but that's one thing they can try if they don't want to revert one shot to him I guess.

[@haku4841]

@@garikek just makes him funnier to play. If he’s gonna loose his oneshot just make him fun

[@haku4841]

@@Hsjackow another rework would be to give him his one shot but with range fall off but I think he’d be complained about too much so I doubt that would ever happedn

[@garikek]

@@haku4841 I understand the draw speed and movement penalty buff. It makes him kinda more dynamic. But what's with the damage buff to dragonstrike, ult cost nerf and dmg nerf? Because in ow every time you change damage you're looking to change the breakpoints. But I don't see how 120->115 changes anything, why does ult need more damage when it already kills squishies fast (they just need to revert stupid speed change), and ult cost when the ult is that bad also seems unnecessary. And if I also wanted to make Hanzo more like Cass but projectile then Hanzo should do 125 dmg, but fine, if you don't want the oneshot, just make his crit do 1.9x dmg or something instead of 2x.

[@TheDevos1]

I don’t see how they can be like hanzo should be better in all ranks but mercy, nah, she’s good not being great at high ranks.

[@kibi_112]

I don't need mercy to be meta I just want her to be more playable. Honestly I'd rather they make her more difficult skill wise and be mid in high ranks than her current state. I didn't put 600hrs on mercy for funsies. I want to play her and be rewarded for playing her well

[@garikek]

1) none of them really play mercy 2) mercy isn't shit individually, she is outclassed by better supports. Hanzo on the other side is just shit now. Can't oneshot, can't twoshot. 3) mercy is more problematic than Hanzo. Most problematic thing about Hanzo is oneshot, but it requires more skill than any hitscan. But mercy Rez is a universally hated ability that denies whatever pick you just got.

[@TheDevos1]

@@garikek mercy Rez really sucks like no one wants it and it’s not for the same reasons. (It’s not as OP as people think and can literally be stopped half the time you have to use it) Hanzo is good at lower ranks, he’s just bad in higher ranks, just like mercy. Again I don’t see the difference.

[@garikek]

@@TheDevos1 the difference is that Hanzo is way healthier for the game than mercy. And again, if there was a mercy player here they'd talk more about mercy being shit. But they only had a Hanzo player, so you get what you get. Also Hanzo isn't good at lower ranks, literally not good. Outclassed by any hitscan and still dies to all dive/flankers, also can't consistently shut down flyers. People say that sojourn is a very rare hero in low ranks, but I'd argue I see soj way more often than Hanzo in gold/plat.

[@TheDevos1]

@@garikek sure

[@DriplessShrimp]

Way better debate. No personal attacks. Some disagreement. Id like to see a great rework and balance debate. In my opinion all reworks have been bad. Sombra being the best but perma invis is dumb. Her scouting playstyle at her launch was better but the hack was crazy long.

[@spacecowboy7193]

Sam says a lot of things. Which means he says plenty of dumb things. But his idea that open queue was better is pretty close to insane. My dude must have had his memory wiped. You think balancing 1 or 2 tanks was tough? How about 4. Or more likely zero tanks, 4 DPS, and a mercy? Open queue was nightmarish.

[@lordmew5]

I think you might be the dumb one the point is literally that it isn't balance at all

[@FoxiestDuck]

37:00 I think Hanzo losing his one shot make sense purely because he can be played like a spam hero and get unintentional value. Widow has to actually be actively targeting their shot to gain the value. One-shot Hanzo is also very strong in all ranges, if the player knows how to respond. Widow struggles if she gets any sort of close range pressure, so she has to play a lot more smarter then a Hanzo does in terms of positioning and pressure control.

[@nahaight1373]

What if… the Mirrorwatch changes are just the scrapped pve content🤯

[@CoopMoe]

Which announcement video is Sam referring to when Goodman said they'd "figure it out later"? I member it but I can't find it scrubbing through the 2019 videos.

[@dantethefan9654]

Make mercy have some kind of healing buff when she is zipping around with crazy movement or something. So high ranks get rewarded for good movement and low ranks don’t

[@dantethefan9654]

Or maybe like the lower your hp is on mercy the higher the heal output, so people that are super good can play with their health bar with dodging

[@Dingle.Donger]

I don't think the audio for this video could be any lower.

[@SolRise_yt]

Its funny. I play A LOT of dva and have been with overwatch since 2017 so ive been through a lot of ways dva's role have changed. Now in 5v5 her playstyle is more reminiscence of a moba tank, being there to start and manipulate the fight in the right direction. Defence Matrix is an amazing tool for this, helping teammates out of position, or dps who wants to make a play and need some support. To Matrixing other tanks preventing them from getting heals, while my own dps do dmg, or peeling for my backline for any potential flanks. I enjoy her playstyle at the moment, and i would be fully ok with having even less dmg done on her, and just focussing on being the bodyguard. Granted, it makes me be more reliant on my dps, but it is what it is. Its a team game. We are reliant on our teammates anyways

[@bull_ow]

I understand what Avril is trying to say, but teamfights in League of Legends are different. You don't have any meaningful frontline trades unless someone is way out of position. We actually saw this in the first beta with the gigatanks. Tanks just took too long to die; in every fight, it would just come down to you walking at the supports . In the first beta there was no meaningful resource trade on the frontline, and even the DPS saw little point in attacking the tanks because the fastest way to kill a tank was to kill their supports. (we also need to keep in mind games like Legue of Legends are played on one map with no real highground, and the game is largley balanced off universally avilible items you use to build out your champion in each match) The off-tank smoothed out many of Overwatch's rough edges, and the transition to a solo tank has made the role generally unfun, it is just not fun for that solo tank to have to deal with those rough edges alone. I understand that DPS players enjoy not being held in check by an off-tank; it's easier to take angles and flank with one less lane guarded by the second tank, there are more DPS duels, and easier access to the backline. However, at a certain point, to make 5v5 work with all these proposed changes to tanks, supports, and reworking problematic heroes, when do we say this is no longer Overwatch and that it would make more sense and take less work to go back to 6v6? We have already lost so much basically just for faster queues (which could have been fixed with better balance and hero releases.)

[@thomascorr6071]

This dev team would do so well with 6v6. 5v5 was the old team second guessing their own design when queue times suffered. 6v6 isn’t perfect but if you want tank to not be flawed it’s the only way

[@marvynjeanbaptiste3206]

This wouldn’t be the biggest shakeup but I had an idea for a mode called Loadoutwatch where you could use either new, old, or temporary (April fools) hero skills.

[@joshneal4767]

I didn't realize this was actually spilos podcast

[@elhubro2386]

The hog "Nerf" has a compensation buff. The 0.25 shorter CD on his heal... Means this hog "nerf" buffs him against Doom.

[@BeastMode-bw2ry]

He was already good against doom anyways. And the 4 nerfs he got are more than enough to bring him down so you're complaining about nothing.

[@elhubro2386]

@@BeastMode-bw2ry he was good against Doom anyway, so let him counter him more... Balance professional. Do you work at lizard?

[@ChimpRevolution]

​@elhubro2386 genius brain dead character counters doom we are nerfing him so let's make sure he shits on doom more before we do

[@BeastMode-bw2ry]

​@@elhubro2386What's lizard? Don't know that company.

[@shawnskyeviews]

I have been a sombra main since her launch and I have ALWAYS hated perma invis.

[@kctheshadowman9651]

I don’t think thanks can be fun because of counter swapping and seriously I think tank will never be fine no matter how OP they are because of counter swapping. Counter swapping can affect every character in the game but tank’s have the most counters out of all the roles, I honestly don’t even think having a second tank would even help that much because that just means you have another person who can counter you as well so having a new teammate may not even matter depending on who they choose, because you have to rely on them to choose the correct tank to help.

[@garikek]

Well, putting counterswapping aside, support role can just dumpster every single cooldown and take ridiculous positions because support passive makes them unpunishable for their mistakes. And DPS can take ridiculous positions because there isn't a second tank to cover those angles, and it comes down to your DPS covering your ass on the sides. And as a tank most of the time you just anchor point or hold highground by existing there. 6v6 + removing role passives removes 90% of that shit from the game. Also I can just tell you, peak counterswapping that I did and that I've heard of in ow1 was going hog against monkey or ball. Other than that you just go whatever tank, DPS are usually the ones pressured to swap to counter. Like reaper vs monkey or Hanzo vs shields. And also in 6v6 it's way more about the whole team composition rather than isolated counters because every role has 2 players that can cover for each other's weakness. And if your team is running rush into poke at least 4 people need to swap, it's not as easy as in ow2.

[@ikhalid1418]

-and in true ow devs fashion, barely do anything til they back themselves into a corner where the only way out is a drastic solution that introduces new dire problems, never go back to fix the problems that forced you to said measures, and build on them instead. -if 1 role being good means the other 2 have to be miserable, maybe the roles designs need a look into. -the issue with projectile heros like hanzo, is the prevalence of hitscan in the game. for projectile heros to go against hitscan hero's point and click way of dealing dmg, they need outlandish dmg numbers, tree trunks sized projectile hitboxes, and spammy style of shooting, to go against characters that literally click on targets to dmg them. hitscan is an outdated design from back when game devs didn't know how to program projectiles. you can't really do anything about hitscan beside dmg numbers. projectile meanwhile, you can play with arch, hitbox, speed AND dmg. -there's too small number of players per team to allow for specialist hero's, and this isn't a "6v6 better" point. -overwatch moba design keeps clashing with it's fast fps design. they took the "ults are strong but take so long to charge + many strong crucial CD's are on +10s timers" and tried to make it work in a fast fps game. -for "hero fantasy" to work, the player and the game designer/devs have to understand and agree that some "hero fantasies" shouldn't even get to sniff low masters. if i wanna play a robot character that gets to turn into a turret and sit in one place, i should be able to, but acknowledge he shouldn't be good to carry me to the top ranks.

[@solomonterrell3051]

W comment

[@lordmew5]

You make amazing points except for the last point. Game devs need to stop adding things just for them to be bad it literally dies make sense just tell these players no and to find a different game(they wont).

[@ikhalid1418]

@@lordmew5 i'm 100% with you on this. but they seem married still to the "hero fantasy" design philosophy. so, i'd rather everyone agree some hero's aren't and shouldn't be good in high ranks, than them wasting time and resources trying to force characters like moira to be good in high ranks, while somehow still maintaining her "hero fantasy", whatever it might be.

[@RIP_ZYZZ1738]

This is just a blizzard issue entirely. They always approached problems in this way, even during the golden days. It’s like gym class and puberty, It was cute at first because they introduced new concepts back then but now it’s just stinky and causes different problems.

[@Crimpleyy]

I think instead of saying that certain characters should never be able to reach a high rank, maybe we should look at trying to fix them so that the experience of playing with/against them promotes a better experience. Bastion could be reworked (not even heavily) into a better character with a higher skill ceiling in such a way where getting his max value wouldn't depend on doing something that takes little effort like shooting the tank, but through something else. Instead of characters like moira or reaper just never being good at the higher ranks, we should design them to a point where they can be good at those ranks because they have more skill expression. A lot of poorly designed characters in this game happen to plateau to such a point where no matter how good you are mechanically or game-sense wise, you can barely get any value because the character fundamentally cannot do any more with their kit. It's why Sojourn and Tracer have been consistently meta throughout OW2's lifetime; these characters have incredibly high skill ceilings that give a lot of value as you improve. What we need to focus on is decreasing the vast disparity between all the characters and their respective skill ceilings/floors, and the value that comes with it. We should expand the kits of flawed characters ( like Bastion/Mauga/Hog etc ) so that they aren't so polarizing to deal with, while also improving their "hero fantasy" by introducing more options of skill expression.