"Grubby's Balance Patch Suggestions for WC3 and Blizzard" | Neo Reacts

[@niuage]

I dont know why I'm watching this, I stopped playing W3C something like 15 years ago or more, but I still find it super interesting.

[@hamidious]

Many of us know we don't have the skill or time to play this game competitively, so we enjoy watching it because it's an awesome game and great to watch.

[@lfarrocodev]

You still know and understands it, so it's like watching soccer commentary

[@P.sherman45]

any sport or activity is fun to watch when its done at its highest level. also everyone here loves WC3

[@shinom0ri]

Same.. I tried playing it for 6 months last year, but I'm likely never reinstalling again. I just casually watch grubby videos, and the details of this should not be relevant to me at all.

[@Любомир-ъ3ы]

same bro

[@jezz527]

I like Grubby's Suggestions a lot. BTW, Tiny Great Hall Nerf are not buffs for orc (you labeled it green). I also like that finally an orc player gives feedback too, since most of the time we listen to you or dondolare (then acknowledge the human bias too). Remo also gives really good feedback imo. My suggestions too: I would buff Warden a bit, maybe the blink range or the stats. Also revert the blademaster nerf from years ago (2 agility), maybe add +1 back, to make him viable vs hu and ud on more maps.

[@carolineborg6128]

Could have the owl be like the Phoenix: you can kill it, but then it turns into an unkillable egg with very low vision.

[@preslavpaskaliev5439]

Why would flying machines be designed to be moving faster than hippos? And, they are also ranged... hm

[@Vhite]

You misspelled "based" on the thumbnail.

[@pets2798]

no

[@GummBo3]

Night elf gets nothing but buffs. Neo at the end: "Hmmmm, I definitely detecting some orc bias here...." Genius

[@pm7943]

nice NE buffs: - remove taunt - small siege buff - hardcoded XP stuff that cant be implemented - hero ability nerf that has and will never be played

[@planetary-rendez-vous]

Owl is so OP everyone agrees to not use it like a gentleman's agreement else as soon as you see the owl it means the opponent permanently maphacks the game and it means there is no point in playing anymore which means you should instant surrender without saying GG whenever you see an owl. Night elf mirror are dictated upon which opponent can summon the lvl 3 owl as fast as possible which asserts owl dominance as it signifies the player is coming out of hibernation and the other should surrender immediately. The reason we never see it is because it would ruin every game and the pro player scene would be unplayable and unwatchable. This nerf was completely deserved because there was no counter play besides disconnecting your computer so you don't ever see the owl in any wc3 game, however at some point you have to touch grass and there you might see or hear an irl owl which means you have already lost any future game you intend to play. Personally this is why I don't play wc3 because this game is completely unplayable, a night elf base has been established near my house in a URBAN CITY and every morning I wake up to the sound of the Owl which makes me instantly understand I am losing the second I am waking up. This game is unplayable.

[@mannydipresso3540]

@@pm7943 u got the taunt part wrong. Its the attempt to exchange an ability that is next to useless and at best kind of annoying at the moment with one that is actually useful.

[@Kinsoneed]

To be honest he NE buffs are a pretty bad joke and wont have any impact :D

[@dissraps]

Careful you don't say that in chat you'll be B A N T

[@voswouter87]

Scout Owl suggestion: - Keep the same duration on all levels, instead of increasing it. - Level 2: The owl is hidden from opponents - Level 3: The owl is not controlable at launch, instead it seeks out the closest enemy hero and then becomes controllable again, although by default it continues to follow the enemy hero.

[@Vhite]

Give Frost Wyrms Yamato Cannon!

[@Kakerate2]

Charged abilities are possible, Flare and Sentinel are already in the game (= you can code in your own charged abilities with the new UI API, as well. I'd be willing to code all of this for some melee maps if anyone wants to pay to see it happen!

[@Sadbringer]

It's quite obvious at this point how one of the guys is an ex-professional player, world champion and is among greatest players of all time and the other is a professional commentator. I don't mean it in the belittling manner. That is to say: there absolutely IS a difference in how you two see the game balance and I'm inclined to trust the pro players more with that. Cool on you making a 2 and a half hour long discussion video though!

[@nurilnuril4372]

You made some really good counter arguments to grubby's ideas. I really liked this video. Hats off to both you & Grubby.

[@Back2Warcraft]

thank you for the praise mate! always good to exchange ideas and filter for the best

[@nurilnuril4372]

@@Back2Warcraft As a fellow WC3 player from 2003, you've earned my respect. I don't play anymore, but I watch my champions play. This game is a part is a part of my history. Thanks for being a bright and brilliant contrast. Keep doing what you do. Age 38

[@josephwojtkowiak8551]

Backpack can also be researchable from the neutral shop at an extra cost.

[@stankokostic725]

Owl could give an extra vision range to the allied units + some small movement speed (similar to Unholy aura and Endurance aura), while also being immune to physical damage (but squishy and easily killable by magic damage)

[@EnricoPascolo]

All I want is more thorzain rifle-Pala

[@partizaans9597]

I agree I want to see more bases for all races

[@gromba]

Forcing people to buy a specific hero to counter a specific unit is kinda dumb.

[@xlatheblackdragon705]

While I understand where this argument comes from, I think this isn't as bad as other aspects of balancing

[@LaredoHk]

“That makes no sense at all” My exact thoughts listening to the commentary

[@Back2Warcraft]

:D that made me laugh

[@zerotohero8993]

Taurens should have "charge", charging towards an enemy unit in range (700) stunning them for 0.2 seconds (except heroes) cool down 20 seconds

[@TheAoalec14]

That would be absolutely insane. Once Taurens get in place they are absolutely devastating. They also could use that to get into the back line insane easily. It sounds cool but if you added that I feel like you’d have to give all T3 melee charge ability then..

[@zerotohero8993]

@@TheAoalec14 I disagree, they can still get slowed once they have reached the opponent, they can be cursed, poisoned and other things to further slow them down and therefore be kited but at least would give them a chance to land a few hits.t Pulverize could be nerfed. The charge itself doesn't deal any damage.

[@TheAoalec14]

@@zerotohero8993 you didn’t say slow would effect charge in your initial post and you didn’t say how fast they cover the distance of 700 n less so it’s a little bit unfair to disagree with me saying that’s ridiculous overpowered. Also can they charge only in a straight line? Or will they be able to charge in any possible way to reach the destination? Pathing has always been an issue implementing this rben feasible? So as you can see I think I was pretty fair in saying you’re in thinking the first version was not potentially gamevreajuhg is wrong. Also 20 sec cooldown is way too low. They could engage win a fight and then pick off fleeing escaping units with charge again. Orc already in insanely good at that with chain lighting shockwave hex and wind walk and of course raiders ensnare ability . So as you can see until you address these things I think I was more then fair. Sounds like a fun mechanic but definitely would be difficult to balance properly or even implement correctly pathing wise

[@zerotohero8993]

@@TheAoalec14 no it's not effecting it, but after charge they are still slowed so you can just walk back

[@zerotohero8993]

@@TheAoalec14 well I don't know if such an Implementation is possible anyways but I would be in favor of a straight way with no units in the way. Otherwise it would be too op. 700 range could be reduced but not so much that you can still just kite them to death before charge. Of course Orc is already a great race however it would be fun if more units were playable. Further I was also thinking about Frostwyrm having the phoenix egg feature but with less armor and longer time.

[@josephwojtkowiak8551]

Krazy idea, have Paladin level two divine shield be used as a spell cast at hero or unit. clicked once on key board is selected and double click cast against itself.

[@dtibvgz8441]

I think that Spell Breaker should have adept and master training which as for other 'caster' units increases their health, mana and abilities. How it will be balanced is another topic but sounds like a change which can affect the whole race balance in relation to their usage and timings. On the topic of Priestess of the Moon - I think her Owl duration should be changed to make one available at all time for 100 mana. Something like 80 seconds duration, 80 seconds cooldown. Then move the aura to her Owl - so the player has to decide - scout or boost army. Then put a completely new skill at aura's place.

[@poyopotpie]

I thought of some possible ideas for Mountain Giants the other day while pondering about the video you are reacting to. I noticed how tall Mountain Giants are while watching a replay and had some ideas. I am curious what your thoughts are: 1) What if Mountain Giants could also attack Air Units given how tall they are? Or perhaps only when they have a Tree Club? Either option means either Normal or Siege Attack damage so who knows how that may or may not be good/bad. 2) Or maybe instead, what if they had a move that pulls/knocks down air units so that other ground melee units can attack said "knocked down" unit for a duration or something. Maybe the knocked down unit even has some sort additional debuff during this duration to further make MG's have more utility without making Taunt more OP.

[@millancche]

omg, dude, "can you lock item behind buildings" was a very worrying moment... As if Sacrificial Skull wasn't locked behind graveyard for, like, a decade or more... You're also incredibly wrong on ghouls in a same fashion, and Grubby is correct on them and WoN/Temple thing as well.

[@Biobin123]

What grubby said about ghouls? Other than agreeing that frenzy needs nerf?

[@millancche]

@@Biobin123 exactly that, and he then moved on. Implying that further discussion and whining about how ghouls are OP and need further nerf is pointless and wrong.

[@grottoguru6473]

Yeah, the video screams of massive HU bias and that seems to be the "professional" lense being used to judge the proposed balance changes

[@millancche]

@@grottoguru6473 yeah. What I'm completely baffled with is that they keep whining how "frenzy ghoul T3 push OP pls nerf", while lacking basic understanding and logic to connect the dots and realize that the removal of those extra, uncontested Scrolld of Healing is already a HUGE NERF to frenzy ghoul push strat.

[@xtremelemon8612]

@@grottoguru6473 look what happened just the other day at Happy during his first game vs Forti as well, UD seems defenseless against how fast the unfinished haunted mine can be destroyed causing the instant loss of the game sometimes. It happens all the time tbh. Undead haunted mines need a serious buff.

[@andreblattner1439]

Give the owl the phoenix-egg ability every 60 seconds and in the egg status the owl looses the invulnerable ability + make the vision during "egg-status" to 1

[@aleksitjvladica.]

Likely Grubby knows that 7 minutes is way too much, yet he starts somewhere not to hit with extreme anybody.

[@LrnecBuma]

I liked your suggestion of unholy frenzy as a single target dispel

[@jaredhazlett3809]

Resistant skin makes more sense, especially because the spirit walker already has it. The logic that Tauren have innate resistance to spells makes sense. Nobody asked, but people complain about magic immunity. Randomly thinking, what if magic immunity was only true if the unit is uninjured? 100% magic resistance. Then when 1 single point of damage or more is on the unit it drops to 90% resistance? Actually seems kind of broken, spells like chain lightning could then be sponged onto the 90% resistant targets. You'd need to tank the spell priority for 90% magic resistant units. That's possible.

[@veixquadron2928]

the next RTS to replace Warcraft 3 would be a design challenge. it should be possible to muck with tradeoffs (attention-capture, lore-wise emotional investment, contemporary relevance, aesthetic immutabilities, ...) as in tinkering with a portfolio of factors until a new game emerges that hits a sweet spot. for instance consider the trade-offs of a game like "binding of isaac" vs "Diablo 2". "binding of Isaac" manages to be as monumental a game as "Diablo 2" due to the way it has made "symbiosis" or "synergies" or "interactivity" of different components possible, making it an infinitely replayable rogue-lite. this goes together with the aesthetic "bindings" that make the skills readable in their very execution. you'd see many Diablo2 players reaching for the style of gameplay that is more fit for the design of "binding of isaac", discovering farming patterns and nitty tricks to get there quickly. imagine if an ARPG game with aesthetic decisions of Diablo2 made use of what "binding of isaac" has to offer.

[@Ivolabel]

It's weird that once hippos got archers on their back, they lose their claws and beaks. I'd say, let hippo riders keep their melee attack in air (maybe slower attack speed), similar to gargs. They would be a more tanky, 4 supply garg with no stone form. DoT and fairies already have the air range attack covered.

[@BasilAbdef]

Maybe increase the ground attack since the arrows are being shot from higher up? They really are not worth the 4 food right now.

[@josephwojtkowiak8551]

Frostwyrm has the skill to freeze a unit that is under t4 for 3 secs.

[@pikerxd6153]

Just give Searing Arrows 100/150/200 % damage bonus against summoned units. It could make her first pick hero against AM, FS or skeletons Or add dispell on hitting targed (not summons). It could dispell 1 effect per shot. You could also use it on your units and they would also take damage like enemies. Dispelling everything with one shot could maybe be broken idk ? Pick everything or 1 per shot and try I dont want to believe that one of these two suggestions cant be added in excel sheet or whatever blizzard uses for balancing. -1 on rings is kinda bad honestly. Claws are the problem for sure but if we dont want to touch them anymore why not give both rings -1 but +70hp and +100hp ? You would think twice if you want to keep them or not and maybe make them on par with claws. One stat increase or damage reduction on defensive items will always be boring. Maybe it should finally change...

[@arturasmarma525]

It costs a lot more gold + lumber to fast make a human hall. But for some reason you dont count that you will start getting 2x gold a lot faster and cost of the repair is kinda negligible.

[@FirstLast-dh8ks]

1:18:14 how about if you dispell it it returns to caster

[@oscarhellberg]

They might turn a little bit of blind eye to backpack, however undead is the only race where the main will be most idle as it only need to produce 5 acolytes. hum, orc, elf all need to produce more workers so it won't be idle as much or even close. however a lot of pro's would have time at t3 or orc at t2 when they decide no to go for t3

[@karpai5427]

Make Spell Breakers be built in a specialized Tier 3 structure Elven Portal. Arcane Sanctum is overcrowded and Priests over there don't get along with spellbreakers. With how oppressive they are it makes sense for them to be hermits like Frost Wyrms and Chimeras.

[@sergiybatsevych2705]

What about Sundering Blade also affect Footman? I like this idea. Defend Footman with Sundering Blade could be funny

[@BrianLocknet]

For Taurens, why not put them back at T3, and simply double their damage, but halve their attack speed? Or something along those lines. This way their clunkiness would be mitigated somewhat, as they would only need to connect half as often as they currently do to have the same impact, while their overall dps would remain the same. Obviously we could play with numbers, but the general idea being: make them hit harder but need to hit less often.

[@dissraps]

So make them more useless again you're saying?

[@BrianLocknet]

​@@dissraps It would make them more useful. I mean a major problem with taurens (aside from tech) are that they're slow and clunky, and can be kited with things like slow. So they tend to die before they spend enough time in melee range doing damage. But that weakness can be offset by needing to hit / be in range less often (by doing more damage per hit). I mean for hyperbole, if you make them one shot everything (heros included), so they only need to connect once, they would be brokenly good even if they only attacked once a minute. You don't have to fix clunkiness by making something less clunky... Clunkiness can be mitigated if you a tanky and dish out tons of damage. I mean just look at human tanks - clunky and slow as hell, but still super good😅.

[@LOSERCLOWNMAN]

HOW CAN DRAGONHAWKS OUTNUMBER GARGS WHEN THEY ARE MORE COSTS AND MORE SUPPLY?

[@AzuOGYTCrab]

Maybe make a skill for POTM to make night? and increase attack damage for ranged allied units?

[@karpai5427]

Here's how to balance Flying Machine: Remove Fire Breath of Panda. Why is it this strong anyway? Make them counterable by other units. Why do you have to buy a specific hero every game? What if there is no Tavern on the map?

[@karpai5427]

Yes. Vorpal blades were changed like 7 times and I have no idea what it was supposed to do other than destroying trees. They probably fly faster or something. It is stupid. Make them bounce targets like Huntresses.

[@marcelblock2454]

I think the blades fly faster and hit the units behind the first, similar to griffins.

[@karpai5427]

The hit past target thing was removed, I think because it made it impossible for glaives to miss.

[@marcelblock2454]

@karpai5427 you know what? I think glaives could have kept that. It's fitting to the theme of NE and probably doesn't affect too much. I vaguely remember shenanigans with keeper glaive, but that was a long time ago and probably needed another fix anyway 🤷

[@karpai5427]

1:15:59 In "Are you an idiot" games if you click on the enemy called "Don't click me" your hero will die.

[@Back2Warcraft]

good point, but i trust custom map scene more than the blizzard team

[@azsolus7845]

Seriously how awful has blizzard become. ALL of these suggestions are done in the many custom game and maps you can download online. Now the company that PUBLISHED and SELLS the game and gave the players the edit tools to do all of these can’t do it themselves anymore?????

[@planetary-rendez-vous]

Dude only 1 unpaid intern on Wc3 and he can only open excel files, give him a break

[@JackSparrow-gn1zn]

Grubby fans kinda butthurt in the comments lol Every race got a balanced set of changes including buffs and nerf, meanwhile orc got 90% buffs with a small nerf of -1 attack to HH (mitigated by berserk upgrade btw) TGH +10s is such a token nerf because it only matters in SOME very specific ultra late game scenarios and Sentry Ward from 10to7m is just a meme :))

[@mariusarthur7229]

Hippogryph riders are very good for harass and tracking enemies if you have a good amount of them. A unit destroyed here and there is very annoying because they escape very fast. They have fast attack, not average as the normal archer. They are good but they require a lot of strategy to them.

[@Kasparovwannabe]

If they were good they would be seen in 1v1 at least sometimes. They used to have purpose against UD, but nowadays they never get played ever. Granted, in 4v4 they definitely have a use case, and in a pure unit arena they aren't that bad, they can 1v1 gryphs and wyverns, but with how the matchups play out they're bad.

[@norberthiz9318]

i think the reason witch doctors are so bad is becasue they provide nothing of value in a straight up fights. They are the only spellcaster in the game that has a first ability that has no value in combat and on top of that their 2nd and 3rd ability also provides almost zero value in fights becasue they are so easily countered. I think the only way to make doctors viable in 1v1 is to redesign stasis and heal ward to be usable in fights, make them not dispelable and stealable and give them more hp so they don't get oneshot and ofc nerf their effects accordingly. I'm not sure this would be better for the game, but I think that if we want witch doctors to be viable we have to go in this direction, I don't think you can make them viable by just making heal ward mana cost less, the changes that doctors got so far don't actually target their problems. Alternatievly you could buff their stats, so they actually pack a punch in fights, so even if their spells are useless they atleast do decent damage

[@tobiasbki443]

I think they shouldn't make Orc a T1 expo race. They are like the Dschinghis Khan Mongoles, they should raide. So improve pillage! I think this gives more varity to the game, I don't want all matchups to have the expo vs expo fights, like Hu vs UD..

[@arturasmarma525]

not Happy alone its 2 undead players who are dominating and happy was loosing in carrier vs him and wining vs all not undeads.....

[@EnricoPascolo]

Ancient protectors is waaay to much exp for no reason,grubby even being too conservative not too be too controversial ,25 dame as everything else is what it should be

[@sailor-erida8576]

Neo surely like Grybbster) It's allready 3rd reaction on him in short period of time. Well, it's not mean he not deserve it)

[@LOSERCLOWNMAN]

DON'T REMOVE MY WALLS, THE WALLS OF KOREA ARE BIG AND HARD

[@GreatOne_1]

I always wanted to know whether patch notes affect Champaign.. imagine something becoming so weak for the sake of balance that you cant beat the final 2 missions in roc and tft, its ai after all but still

[@marcelblock2454]

You misspelled campaign, but maybe improved it in the process 😂

[@Staz]

campaign levels have seperate stats for everything, it's like making a map, you can edit the values of anything for that specific map

[@veixquadron2928]

warcraft is a working virtuality and one's idea of what "balance" means be tricky. are chicken foot traces balanced? in what way are they balance-related? how about wallpapers conveying information? does balance concern individual players? statistical castes of players? virtual castes of neural-networks distinguished by some algorithm? moreover just to make it clear, i am convinced that "random" is yet another race since some find it impossible to play individual races over a long enough session not to mention the information lost to the other player. Warcraft is a situated system and is exposed to re-ality(?!) and other situated systems such as DOTA 2, elections, soccer, cryptographic markets, ...

[@dekisuba]

Give me your drugs

[@prayerchum]

I care about 4on4, lots of people do

[@johnnyenglish1652]

What logic is this? Undead T1 units are super good for late games, also Orc units. Why Human T1 is trash for late games???

[@evg3nius]

Neo come on. The incentive to go for lvl 2 frost armor is because 4 is better than 1. Not because 4 is less than 5 : /

[@stankokostic725]

Maybe a slight variation to the MG "Bulwark", to make it easier to control - make it a toggle that makes the selected MG take more damage (both physical and magic), but buff the surrounding units with extra defence. This way they can exist in singular, but also be able to switch between them which one is gonna be more vulnurable in order to protect the other units

[@Horangs714]

This is coming from a former champ so would take it into consideration. Current game is busted.

[@Petofeliz]

DK Cost Spiral de 75 a 85

[@EnricoPascolo]

Windrisers are way too mich exp

[@kostasvapo69]

Bear's Roar should give armor to ranged units and MG's taunt to give attack damage boost to ranged units. After all the protagonists are the ranged units for the NE race! POTM new ability could target an enemy unit, jump on it and deal aoe dmg or bleed effect or armor reduction. It's a tiger after all, it should be a threat! Taurens should be a tier 3 unit with all the nerfs it takes to be, and get a passive ability like heal regeneration or mini-stun on hit % or slow on hit effect.

[@sytse7531]

The whole patch note is designed to allow Grubby to play whatever strategies he wants with Orc.

[@karpai5427]

Neo is evil. Why everyone hates >1vs>1 game modes?

[@_AlvaroGabriel_]

Grubby just hate human 🤷

[@smittar1]

ToD? Is it you?

[@LOSERCLOWNMAN]

ORC SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM KOREA

[@simeontodorov8657]

Why?

[@MrNhargreaves]

DONT WORRY NEO, YOU ARE VERY MUCH THE SAME BIASED AGAINST UNDEAD AS GRUBBY IS VS ORC

[@Back2Warcraft]

OK MR NHARGREAVES!