Does Healing Make Sense in Fantasy?

Did People die in their 30s throughout history? What is a mortality rate? How can we expect to mimic medieval population dynamics when there are magical solutions to many diseases?
#dnd #fantasy #health #medicine #5e #worldbuilding
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The Grungeon Master logo, intro, and background music were composed by the wonderful Janina Arndt!
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[@RavioliRecords]

I don’t know why everyone is saying people didn’t live long in medieval times, I’m 547 years old and doing fine.

[@Granad784]

Most of that was not in medieval times in fact you only lived 24 years there

[@iivin4233]

Fun fact. There is some discussion about ancient average ages being so low because infant mortality was remarkably high. That dragged the average age down. Otherwise, the average age wasn't too different.

[@sizanogreen9900]

care to share your vampirism with an aspiring nightwalker?

[@Grungeon_Master]

@iivin4233 Not quite true! Even ignoring infant mortality, the average historical life expectancy tops out around 50, as I mention in the video. Certainly more than 30, but significantly less than our 70s.

[@Vafbrudnir]

Vampires in the modern day are a bane on society, they put statistics all out of wack.

[@evanunhinged5771]

I've always loved the idea of a "magic-resistant disease." Like, there are creatures in magical and DnD fantasies that are resistant to magic and magical effects, and in our real world, many pathogens have developed resistances against the cures found in modern medicine, so it doesn't feel like much of a stress to me that some strains of micro-organisms would develop resistances against magical cures

[@ClashBluelight]

"Sorry bud. That pathogen is immune to the heal spell. You'll need to find somebody who can upcast it to at least level 8, or a rare herb that only grows in the mountains to the west of Coronai."

[@Nostripe361]

This also sounds like the evil plan of a villain. Like researching bio weapons that are immune to magical healing

[@evanunhinged5771]

@@Nostripe361 I really like the idea of followers of a plague god who are basically just Magical Mad Scientists who do this exact sorta thing

[@josesoria2072]

Or it could be both, diseases that are not curable by magic and diseases that are, but sometimes they are unrecognizable from each other and bam, dead.

[@MarkD5678]

The magical arms race between worshipers of deities of healing and disease

[@Grevnor]

A personal theory of mine is that chi / chakras, etc. are a premodern understanding of the nervous system. Much like how Ancient Egyptians knew that moldy bread cured infections (because of the penicillum mold's antibacterial properties, the foundation of all antibiotics), but not necessarily why, Eastern medicine realized applying needles to specific points of the body produced certain results, used their understanding of how that worked to map out how and where to apply needles to achieve certain effects, and that would explain how acupuncture, despite having no foundation in modern medicine, actually work for specific things. Much of traditional medicine is guesswork and trial and error, and sometimes they get something very right, other times they get things very wrong. But basing fantasy medical theory on certain premodern theories being true is a very good way to add depth to the worldbuilding.

[@matthewparker9276]

Modern conventional medicine is still mostly guesswork and trial and error, just with larger sample sizes, more precision, and more sophisticated analyses.

[@RavenCloak13]

Hell, acupuncture as we understand it is actually a pseudoscience but it works depending in the person and just knowing it's based in how you think it works can change if it will actually help you or not because of how your muscles will unconsciously react with that little nagging thought in the back of your head your not actually thinking of. My uncles grandmother would use to go each week to an acupuncturist and she could walk straight again but she would have to go back again after a week. It wasn't even expensive either. The place would just do it and she would pay over a month period of like 100 USD for a 30 minute session. It wasn't a scam cause it worked when other methods didn't for just back pain and here she is walking normal again without a hunched back.

[@lostbutfreesoul]

Indeed, I remind people often that Pharmaceuticals are just modern herbology. Not that they should switch, modern means added science, but don't discard so quickly. Ask oneself, what is the active thing in this plant that is having an effect on the body. That is all the chemists did, when they created those little tablets that can heal.

[@Grevnor]

@@lostbutfreesoul Of course. Sometimes traditional medicine stumbles onto cures, and they work. The only real difference between modern medical science is that the latter asks WHY it works, if it can be made to work better, or more reliably, or if you can reduce the side effects. It also makes doubly sure a reported cure ACTUALLY work, so it's not just a case of placebo, why it doesn't work, etc. This all neatly brings me to one of my favourite tropes - Sufficiently Analyzed Magic. The inverse of the famous Arthur C. Clarke quote "Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic." (Also known as Clarke's Third Law). The inverse would be that any magic sufficiently analyzed is indistinguishable from technology. (For a great example, see Terry Pratchett's wizards, who are often stand ins for our world's scientists.)

[@RavenCloak13]

​@@lostbutfreesoul Hell, just good diet knowledge already improves your health and literally that's just the modern equivalent of the random witch doctor lady giving you things she thinks will help you or scam you with. Scam diets and the like are the new witch doctor giving you foot of lizard and blood of pigeon. Access to food from different countries through trade improved diets of people but also fucked with them cause depending on the economy, social services, peoples own wants their diet can make them as fat as kings of the past.

[@metholuscaedes6794]

One good thing with having wastly improved infant survivial and general healthcare and disease curing, is that your wastly grander population can now mannage a higher death tool by say, Goblins, orcs, dragons, and undead hordes! It all balances out in the end!

[@yjlom]

and easier farming and industry means you can have more soldiers too, it's perfect!

[@petersmythe6462]

One thing to keep in mind is that epidemics have magic too. A Lycanthropy, demonic possession, or curse epidemic, or mimic infestation, or a spell that causes everyone who dies to come back as a zombie, is arguably even more dangerous than a bacterial or viral epidemic. Magic may not so much prevent disease as enable it, with knowledge of magic being necessary just to level the playing field.

[@SierraSierraFoxtrot]

Exactly. In a world with magic, non-medical ailments areveasy to solve but I would assume problems with a magical component would take their place. Instead of dysentery, a cursed well, or magical poisonous animals.

[@asahearts1]

Certain other professions unrelated to war also had short life expectancy. A little later than medieval, but foundry workers only lived to around 30 due to carbon monoxide and other poisonous gases (on top of other hazards). Miners also had short lives, of course, and that carried on for a long time. I really like the idea of diseases unrelated to microorganisms. Maybe someone's chakras are out of whack. This is actually true in real life, too, btw. There are developmental diseases, environmental toxins, mental illnesses, allergies, etc. Even with modern medicine, we can't reliably keep someone's own immune system from attacking them. 🤷‍♂️ One way of keeping magic from getting out of hand is to have the spells do very specific things, because maybe they're handed down by absentee gods. So no tinkering with the healing spells to cure illnesses, since the gods only gave a wound closing spell.

[@Nostripe361]

Seen a some of series start to have some form of magic intoxication. Like absorbing to much mana or being around the wrong clone of magic can weaken or hurt a person. I’ve even seen a couple show magic will kill someone who has it unless the child is immediately taught how to control it or is given something to control it or suck out the extra magic power

[@bernatsaenz5100]

Maybe the improper use of healing spells leads to a magic induced illness, one that's not transmitted through microorganisms. Or the well-intentioned tinkering of a healing spell has unexpected results, like a magic variant of cancer. It also would be neat if spells could cure X type of diseases/problems, while others required blessings or miracles. It would be hilarious if you go seek healing and at the entrance there's a receptionist triaging people. "Broken bones and burn victims to the magitech department... Curses and illomens victims to the blessings department..."

[@asahearts1]

@@Nostripe361 Warhammer 40k comes to mind. Psykers are very susceptible to getting possessed by demons and can destroy an entire planet, so the Sisters of Silence take them on prison ships back to Earth, where only the most controllable ones are allowed to become sanctioned psykers. In the works of Dakota Krout, essence density can be a problem. The Divine Dungeon series is a western take on the cultivation genre. If you somehow take in too much unprocessed essence, it can cause you to explode. Even asside from that, essence in the environment needs to be purified of corruption or it will cause health problems. Basically the idea is that you must draw in essence in an environment with ALL of the essence elements you are capable of using (6 possible elements), filter out the corruption, turn the essence into chi, and then feed the chi to your soul. Dakota Krout's Completionist Chronicles series takes place after Divine Dungeon, but the setting has changed for... reasons. Now it's a pocket universe with gamelike natural laws. There are different areas which act like servers, with different mana densities. Being on the wrong server can straight up make you explode, and even if you can barely handle it, you will be under leveled. Also noticed this in Reincarnated as a Slime. Good stuff.

[@Nostripe361]

@@asahearts1 another one I had in mind was that isekai manga/novel/anime about the girl being crazy about books (can’t remember the long name). In that world having any level of magic kills the child because thier small bodies can’t handle the power. So most children with magic die. To survive you either need to have expensive magic jewelry that absorbs the raw magic or into other magical items. So mostly only nobles have magic as they can afford it. Commoners can only survive if they can find someone to be their patron or become a servant of the church

[@robertnett9793]

The proverbial mad hatter - in a time when felt hats were treated with mercury of all things.

[@FangtheDragoon]

i really like how paolini handles this in his inheritance cycle. the words and magic to cure and fix most ailments probably exist, but require you to have deep knowledge of what exactly you’re doing as the magic is shaped by your intent. on top of this a lot of magical knowledge is held by races who are deeply distrusted by the average human, so even if there is a cure, the ones who have the ability likely wouldnt be trusted to actually employ it.

[@ernestlam5632]

I think that the fact that the very tiny bacteria viruses etc are so much less potent in a magical setting makes it makes sense that things that are gigantic like dragons and giants are more successful in the ecosystem. These giantic death causes replace the tiny ones maintaining the population balance.

[@asahearts1]

In Overlord, humans almost went extinct because in addition to all the usual killers, there were monsters and other intelligent species which outcompeted them. It was only when players were summoned from their deep dive MMO that humans had a chance to build kingdoms and stuff.

[@sizanogreen9900]

I mean I am worldbuilding fantasy VERY distant from D&D but this still was very inspiring to me (as are many of your other videos) so thanks for that:)

[@williansnobre]

The God of Disease and Decay might be like Nurgle, he loves all life, including the microorganisms. This god could demand you to make a small sacrifice, for you to allow the little ones to live and spread through you, to feed and nourish them with your life and suffering, and provide you with the resilience to live through the disease. This god could be opposed by a God of Purity that sees no value in microorganisms and instead cleanses them, healing through removal and anihilation instead. Both could have cults with advantages and disadvantages, prizes and panalties.

[@RavenCloak13]

Nurgerl by this logic ends up making people who are pretty much outright immune to diseases but their bodies don't destroy them. Extract a cure from them and change it and you basically created a panacea. The other God meanwhile is basically giving people the most accurate combat spells ever. Imagine being able to cast a microscopic fireball inside someone and outright kill everything that said cult finds impure. This also by basic logic makes them the greatest killers ever.

[@dragnus12]

Statistics are messy? Say it aint so!

[@CC21200]

Not just war but also childbirth.

[@treeofblue4923]

What's the difference? 😂

[@jaceg810]

Note about the "connectedness" of base dnd 5e: Teleportation circle costs 50 gold a pop, now lets say it is reasonable that 5 people pass though in the 6 seconds it is open, then it is still around 10 gold a person, thats a full week of work for someone skilled in their craft. So while not unrealistic, still significantly more expensive than a plane ticket. And that is assuming none of the following costs are in some way partially included in the price: - The creation of the circle, being over 1700 gold - Security, one casting of dispel magic can end said circle - Security, if between countries, some kind of border check might be in need - Payment for the caster, sure, the components are covered, however the spellslot of a somewhat high level wizard is presumably quite valuable, even in a high magic world - Availability, Even with 10 Level 10 wizards, you can only cast it 20 times a day, so about 100 people, and that would fully consume all their highest level magic These factors together can probably significantly drive up the price of using one, probably 4 to 10 fold of the original components, if not more. This would in all likelihood make the use of teleportation very rare, for nobility or very important goods only. As simply moving grain is probably not economically viable, as for that price, a high level wizard could just show up personally and conjure said basic goods. (If its about travel, phantom steed is probably the most overlooked spell when talking about travel, it moving at 2ce the speed of a horse, being free once you are able to cast it, and being able to travel even faster since you have a fresh horse every hour would allow for fast travel for relatively cheap) Generally, magic can fix everything, you just need more magic, (assuming base dnd 5e), if you have the capital and highest of magics, you can literally resurrect someone who was disintegrated and remove all curses and disease.

[@emylily8266]

That's all fine and dandy, until you realize the main use of a teleportation scrolls is not to carry everyday people, but to carry goods. And oh boy a single trip of 5 ppl with multiple bags of holding each will deliver truck loads of highly valuable materials and research in seconds across the continent.

[@asahearts1]

@@emylily8266 This was my first thought. My second thought was "it's limited by the time it's open?" I've never played D&D, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like you could pass a lot of train through a portal in 6 seconds. edit: 30 mph is 44 feet per second, times 6 is 264 feet of train (more than 4 bowling lanes), at city driving speeds. To achieve these speeds easily, build a log flume. edit 2: Assuming a 7 foot radius on a circular portal and the 30 mph speed, a cylindrical train could pass 10,159.91 cubic feet of volume in 6 seconds. edit 3: Looked it up, and it's a 10 foot diameter, but it says "any creature that passes through the portal." Considering you can pass with equipment, attach the train to an operator with a carabiner, or else just use it for personal transport rather than bulk cargo.

[@josephperez2004]

​@@asahearts1The issue you may not be addressing is timing. Casting Teleportation Circle takes 1 minute, opening the portal for less than 2 rounds, then closes. To get the speeds you are looking for, you need to get exact neasurements of length, speed, acceleration, etc thst are the exact same EVERYTIME. Even a minor change will, at best, make your speeding train either arrive too warly or too late or, at worst, have only part of the load enter and cause all manner of spatial teleportation troubles. That said, 5 people is certainly low end projections here. Most creatures that would be likely to pay for passage have a movemrnt speed of 30 feet, meaning they can in fact move double that if they rush (move and spend their action to Dash). But let us assume just 30 feet of movement to be safe and that most of these creatures only take a 5 ft square, meaning two of them can approach a side of the circle at a same time. This means that at a very conservative estimate, you can easily get a dozen people through a Teleportation Circle, more so if you have way to increase speeds of other creatures (or perhaps even have mounted creatures move through either with riders if combatants are needed or with fully loaded saddlebags if materials are bring transported).

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

​@@josephperez2004Already thought about that, the solution was: A round course at the portal to accelerate and decelerate. And for more durable good you can actually slingshot them through. 2 turns equals 12 seconds in 5e. even with some security margins that gives you at least 6 seconds to send stuff through. 60kilometers per hour (steam engines can go over twice as fast!) are already over 16 meters per second. And the portal is big enough for real life train cars. So a conservative estimate with 60 km/h and 75% security margin gets us about 4 (4 seconds and most modern wagons are shorter then 16 meters, so we even get additional safety margins) train wagons through a portal. Last minute tickets could be allowing people to run through after the train has passed if there is more then 3 seconds left. Those people would of course have to stand ready just in case that happens. logistics!

[@0zer0ne1]

If I was born 200 years ago, I would probably have died

[@RavenCloak13]

A majority of us would.

[@jonathanwells223]

@@RavenCloak13nah, I’d live

[@iivin4233]

Healing spells are problematic for storytelling but having magicians who heal using magic are interesting to consider. Need to hold a gash closed as you sucher it but don't have a surgical nurse to provide an extra set of hands--or you'd rather the barber not hold the wound closed with their unwashed hands? Use a mage hand spell to hold the cut closed. Cast flames to cauterize. Chill the anemic unconscious with frigid fingers. Defribrilate them with electric palms. Treat cancers with advanced poisons or degredation spells or necromantic magic. Ease pain with illusions or trick it away. The options are amazing.

[@josesoria2072]

I thought of using magic as first aid or emergency medicine, the truth is that using magic as an extra instead of the usual method leaves medical knowledge almost intact.

[@iivin4233]

@@josesoria2072 It really does. I don't necessarily think magic of that kind would fast track scientific discovery, though. If some people can just create electricity for example then they won't have to learn how currents naturally form in order to use electricity. For magiocrats, innovation is probably going to begin where their magic ends. If there is no telekinesis, people will eventually learn about sterilization. They will be suffering the consequences of bacteria ridden hands until they do. If there is telekinesis, then they'll learn that more wounds heal when treated by mage handed nurses and that'll be enough for many people.

[@RavenCloak13]

Not really. DnD already fixed this issue at base version one. Can't cast more then like 3 heal spells a day. Hell, you need reagents originally to even use them. But people got rid of that because it wasn't fun. Need for mana and getting tired from using magic just like any other feat and people just not being strong enough to do something to tap into a specific source to fuel your spell, from mana or just basic stamina limits how crazy you can get. Or does it? For stuff like diseases it ends up becoming not a healing problem but a destruction problem. You need to kill off these things you can't see. That becomes the magic you need to learn. Concentration to visualize these microbes or even a scrying spell to see the virus and the like to kill and the control to kill the microbe but not damage the individual badly. Hell, use standard healing magic to repair them. It ends up making the logic that actually creating a new arm would be more difficult to do then say curing someone of an illness because of different magic system and how it was developed. This also goes into the logic that without natural immunities or resistances being created by your cells, you have people more susceptible to disease in this magic system because your outright killing the problem instead of letting a body gain immunities to it.

[@RavenCloak13]

Also you know the guy whose job it is to cut stuff for a living would be better at cutting right? Especially a guy your supposed to trust to cut VERY close to your neck. Your literally trying to make a problem that is solved by disease theory being known by the populace or just... Gloves. You need to explain why the barber who would be the cheaper option in such a world wouldn't learn from other people. Hell, even back then they washed their hands to cut peoples hair because people don't like their hair being grease.

[@SusCalvin]

I prefer simple rules where I don't have to break out a hit location or diagnostics system when sir Bob gets shot with an M-16 by a goblin. WFRP got a system for healing because some bloke at GW felt like it, you would judge how good conditions were and how skilled the barber-surgeon was. Medicine in the empire is a bit more advanced, close to renaissance medicine or better. Twilight 2000 has that kind of simulationist system. In T2013 medics had to correctly diagnose issues, and could mistreat them if they failed. Surgery was possible, but consumed a lot of supplies.

[@chameleonx9253]

In my world, magic only works if you can describe or visualize what you want the spell to do, so healing magic generally requires at least some knowledge of how the body works. This means that for anything more than surface-level injuries, you need to have actual medical training to be able to heal people. Magic also obeys the law of conservation of energy, so in order to heal flesh you need to have slightly more energy available than is going into the patient. That energy comes from your own tissues (preferably fat), so there's a hard limit on the level of wounds one healer can deal with, unless they want to risk serious damage to their own body. As a result, healing magic is about as rare and valuable in my world as medical doctors in our world, and require similar levels of training and dedication. Healers tend to mix magic with alchemy and mundane medicine in order to conserve mana for emergencies.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

That's an excellent logic behind magic healing! I have encountered a few that have been able to fully suspend my disbelief, and yours is right there with them. Signed: retired nurse

[@ClashBluelight]

That's actually a really cool limit to the magic. Instead of mana, your wizards use fat. Though... wouldn't that make the ultimate archmage a Reddit mod?

[@chameleonx9253]

@@ClashBluelight Yeah, the people who use magic often have to eat a lot to keep them fueled, which is another limiting factor. The world is at a sort of Victorian tech-level, just on the cusp of an industrial revolution. So generally speaking, only the upper classes can guarantee a steady supply of high-calorie food. So, even though technically anyone can do magic, the common folk generally don't have enough calories to spare to practice safely. If you're not trained enough to know how to target your fat cells, or you just don't have enough to fuel the spell you're trying to cast, it can very quickly go bad. As in, having the same effect as starving yourself for weeks occuring over the course of a few seconds.

[@EiggyRules]

Wondrous worldbuilding!

[@RavenCloak13]

That logic doesn't work. Your saying visualize or describe what you want it to do. That has nothing to do with actually knowing what's wrong. Just that you think you understand and might just cure it by accident without actually knowing how you solved it. Like how Rasputin saved the son of the Rominov house life by using leeches to lower his blood pressure that kept the kid from going into seizures if I remember right. He didn't know that was what he did. He thought it was getting rid of "bad blood". If you visualize or describe the thing you want fixed then it would cure it based on that logic. This also doesn't make sense to say it obeys the conservation of mass. Just go grab a pig or a captured enemy or just a dead body of the enemies and use their bodies to replace parts. This also has the problem of if your saying that slightly more energy is needed and it can only work with yourself, then the problem becomes your mixing genetically incompatible materials into someone and they should die. Skin grafting requires you use pieces from the person and out it somewhere else, rejection of such things from even bone replacement exist, let alone the muscle and nerve endings. This ends up making the magic healing sound incompetent when you try and explain it like that because of how much energy your actually going to need to not only change one genetic structure into another, just curing a disease will be completely impossible with how even more different it is from baseline human on a genetic level even as a microbe.

[@MacCoalieCoalson]

A few of my favored solutions are that, for one, mages that are skilled or powerful enough to be medically useful are in much shorter supply than the number of sick or injured in a far more dangerous and highly populated fantasy world, as well as magical diseases (meaning diseases whose effects are magic, like lycanthropy or vampirism or some kind of zombie virus or something, but also more typical diseases which use magic to survive, spread, etc.) that would not only command these specialists' attention far more but also pose more of a challenge to them. And that's not to mention travel and logistics, even with fast travel methods, a healing mage getting to the patient before they succumb to their sickness could be dubious unless they have very close access to this travel, which would probably necessitate quite a bit of wealth. A lot of fantasy creatures and ailments are likely to kill you outright, which would mean any "treatment" would start with or include resurrection, the logistics of which are even more complex, depending on setting. Potions would probably be far more impactful, since in many settings, they can be made with pretty common ingredients, and can heal or help to heal quite a few ailments. The average peasant would probably be far better off buying or trying to brew a potion rather than seek out a healing mage, especially considering that while most fantasy settings' peasants are better off than real medieval serfs, they aren't so much better off to be able to afford any fees that all but the most humble of healers would likely charge.

[@SusCalvin]

OD&D spell slot magic creates this economy. How many level x blokes in the region are there who can toss that spell, and how many spell slots worth can they squeeze out per day. Cure Disease is not uncommon. Depending on how common mid-levels are, there could be a handful of such blokes in a small town. Three people in a town who can Cure Disease on five people a day would do a lot.

[@larstollefsen1236]

For D&D tool summoning you'd want the subclass feature, Minor Conjuration as Prestidigitation is pretty useless for object summoning. It takes an action, let's say 4 seconds, to cast and then the object only lasts until the end of your next turn, which is 6 seconds long. 6-8 seconds to precisely use a tool is difficult to impossible but I agree with the rest of your observations on that cantrip.

[@SusCalvin]

Sometimes the creation spells are worded to limit item complexity. Items can be limited in material. Permanency is not uncommon, but paying a bloke to use a spell slot to create a sack is more expensive than paying a townie craftsman.

[@aramisdagaz9]

I’m running a campaign that’s a WWI era magitech setting, and yet there are spirits all over the place. This video got me thinking why shouldn’t modern medicine not be based around driving out, beseeching, and appeasing such spirits? An anime in this vein is Mushishi, where a doctor heals patients affected by spirits, though in that show spirits range from faerie-like people to fae pathogens. The main character’s approach to a lot of these situations is an interesting mix of shamanism, consulting old tomes, and techniques that resemble how a modern doctor would cure a patient afflicted with parasites or a fungal infection.

[@Michael_Azrael]

Definitely enjoyed this one, and been enjoying stuff on your channel in general. I do want to note something though, regarding your point on... I guess we can call it nursing. Prior to the advent of public hospitals, such things were largely up to the church. In settings where healing is primarily (or exclusively) done via divine magic, I actually think that this sort of thing would be even more emphasized. Churches are not just sanctuaries for your spiritual health, but they are also where one might find solutions to any physical ailments that might be giving them problems. In such things as Dungeons and Dragons, wayward adventurers are generally charged for services, however I actually think that this sort of thing is likely because the local church is offering its services to outsiders, those that will simply move on and not contribute much to the community in the long-term. One important thing that sets churches in their importance, especially in medieval-style societies, is their role as the central location that all members of the community congregate, that they come to for worship but also to be made equal before their deity. In much the same way, whilst the nobility may have access to private healers that may not have any connection to the local churches, those in the community that show up regularly, that contribute to the church's donation box, or just that are important within their community should likely be able to count on the church's healers doing what they can to aid them. If a specific solution to the ailment can be granted, such as curing a disease or a broken bone, then they will do it. In such cases that it can't be done with what they have available, however, I don't believe that the church will simply turn someone away, but will offer solutions for mitigating the issue until they CAN find an actual solution. Remember, it was the Catholic Church in the West that was behind the advances in science and medicine moreso than any other group, and in a setting where the church is much more primarily responsible for curing ailments - especially in such circumstances as it is through their connection to their deity that allows them to do so, and will directly or indirectly lead to a strengthened faith in its members - such aspects are only likely to be reinforced in a way that might even lead to something approaching a sort of medical revolution. Even if not, I feel that the religious institutions in settings such as Dungeons and Dragons are likely to be centers of medical knowledge and practice. The trope of Clerics as Healers exists for a reason, and those reasons should be used to help in building up your world, rather than seen as things to shy away from.

[@MJS-lk2ej]

on the Druidic magic allowing manipulation of weather phenomenon for improved agriculture. did you know that in the modern world we have the technology to create rain, it is called cloud seeding, the US used it extensively in the Vietnam war to extend the monsoon season and prevent the Viet Kong from getting and transporting supplies, it is now a war crime, and is also considered a taboo technology for a government to use because you are taking rain from somewhere else when you use it.

[@kelpiekit4002]

In a magical world it makes sense that many illnesses maybe partially or completely magical, which could completely change ideas of who is susceptible. A healthy immune system might be quite different if disease is caused mostly by demonic possession or proximity to unbalanced elemental influence for instance. Rather than disease carriers there maybe unintentional reverse paladins that unknowingly have an aura that foments disease. Magic practice and wielding magic items might be rarer simply because most people have allergies to magic rather than an inability. Germs may not exist and may have been disproven as a scientific theory, with miasma or etheric contamination or a disease god liking red heads more sound theories.

[@ItsDaJax]

I mean... how many RPGs where you gotta get the [sacred thing] to heal the deathly ill girl?

[@dragonturtle2703]

In a world with magical monsters and divine curses, the diseases may also be magical. Or maybe magic resistant, like antibiotics resistant.

[@Burning_Ent]

The Forgotten Realms has those... Mummy Rot for example is a magical disease that turns its victims into sand, should there not be interference from a mummy lord that is... In which case you have worse problem then becoming sand.

[@josephpurdy8390]

There is a psionic encounter table in the 1e AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide. On this table it has demon princes, arch devils, lich, mind flayer, and other very dangerous encounters. These being would take notice if players utilized psionic powers. However, there is a list of spells which includes cure blindness, cure disease, cure wounds, heal, and remove curse. The casting of these spell could attract the attention of these powerful beings.

[@robertnett9793]

00:15 - 'Statistics are a messy business' - to cite a good friend of mine "Numbers.... are like people. If you torture them long enough, they tell you everything you want to hear."

[@aweetodd]

This is possible my favorite video I've seen of yours. It really got me thinking. Thankss!!!

[@krinkrin5982]

One of the most insane things about the D&D magic system is, in my mind, how many spells that were designed to simply stop players from having to worry about resources have society-changing repercussions very few people think about. Goodberry was probably meant to reward having a druid with the party solving the issue of foraging. But as you said, it can feed the entire population. Mending is supposed to allow players to continue adventuring when their equipment breaks, but it basically solves the maintenance problem. Comprehend Languages is supposed to let players talk with NPCs and read the clues to the ancient riddle, but it basically removes the need to learn foreign languages or trust translators. Light is basically a costless smokeless torch. All of these are 1st level spells, meaning that any initiate and parlor trickster can cast them.

[@Mesayoda]

I'm enjoying your channel and really loved this video! This was a great worked example of the kind of worldbuilding I aspire to do! Thank you!

[@recursiveslacker7730]

In the setting I’ve constructed, the reason only priests can do healing magic is that biology is so intractably complex that it takes a divine being capable of keeping track of all the elements of biology’s delicate dance to not mess it up somehow and give you cancer. In the far future, of course, that would reasonably be expected to change as people gain a proper understanding of the mechanisms involved. But for now it’s a matter of offloading the processing to the divine.

[@Greenicegod]

That makes a lot of sense! It also lends itself to the idea that sorcerers use primarily elemental magic, as it's dead simple and intuitive to just conjure vast amounts of fire.

[@toodleselnoodos6738]

That’s generally how I explain Christian miracles if God was real. Though more like a coder. They see how this “self recursive generative code” (life) interacts negatively, and thus the deity can revert it or run another program to remove the “virus” code.

[@RavenCloak13]

So It has nothing to do with education but simply God gave them the ability? Then there is no learning. Your reliant in that God forever. There is no future unless someone separate from the God tries to understand it themselves. Which goes against your logic. Just like real life where the churches created all the collages and places of learning, just have the logic be you need to be smart. Otherwise such a setting makes humans completely obedient to a God that is basically hording knowledge of a basic healing spell over the populace which sounds evil as fuck and makes for a very cliche "The church is evil" story as why would anyone want to go against this God that gave us such a miraculous gift? Anyone studying this is evil and must be purged.

[@recursiveslacker7730]

@@RavenCloak13 no, it’s not like that. It’s a pantheon of deities, and they aren’t “hoarding knowledge”. I straight up pointed out that further study could push the boundaries of what other types of mages could do.

[@RavenCloak13]

​@@recursiveslacker7730 Yeah and they wouldn't.. Why would priest EVER do that when that's fucking heretical when your saying that humans are too fucking stupid to understand this and the God is giving them the ability? Anyone figuring this out would be considered heretical for trying to understand something God granted them. And so what if multiple Gods exist when only ones giving them the healing ability and it would just be the same thing of anyone trying to figure out how this works without the God in question not be considered a heretic?

[@bapabs]

Not much of a question for your sorta faq, just wanted to say Ive been really enjoying your videos for the past few months, really have been giving me quite a bit to think about in my campaigns, so thank you for all your work! Happy channel anniversary Tom Grungeon!

[@Vafbrudnir]

Interesting topics as always, wonderful to see such underrepresented views and thoughts

[@thiagom8478]

Happy Anniversary for your channel!

[@joshuahernandez3300]

I LOVE The Grungeon Master videos!

[@haidner]

I did an undergraduate research project on mortality in 13th century France. Mortality was much higher than we really think about today. Only 1 in 10 children lived to puberty. And of all people born, only 1 in 20 lived past 27. Mortality was about equal for males and females, just the causes of death were quite different after childhood. For males it was mostly violence; for females mostly hearth diseases.

[@koboldgeorge2140]

Does that 1 in 20 number include the 1 in 10 who died as children?

[@haidner]

@@koboldgeorge2140 Read it again. Only 1 in 10 lives to puberty. That means only half of them lived past 27. However, if they lived past that age, life expectancy was into their late 70's, even 80's.

[@dragonuh7915]

i hold the seat of 30th disciple of this greatness

[@Mysticwastelands]

Murder mystery solved by detective cleric just resurrecting the victim.

[@cabalarcana6996]

In vanilla 5e, one could argue that genetic disorders could be cured with the Reincarnate spell.

[@jackr2287]

Sound enough for me. Now you just need to convince, bribe, promise, or contract (probably through magic) a high level druid to perform this service!

[@cabalarcana6996]

@@jackr2287 Yeah, there's the rub...

[@jonathanwells223]

So could the Miracle or Wish spell, and with no strings attached

[@rewrose2838]

Read some of the chinese/korean fantasy with all their miracle medicines & herbs, and acupuncture, and all the expelling of body' waste and rebuilding the body through meditation etc

[@Canido19]

I love this video. It's worth noting that there's lots of reasons why magic in a high or low-fantasy setting might not be a panacea for things like infant mortality rate or famine. To suggest that "humanity has X, therefore they don't have to worry about things affected by a lack of X" is good logic on its face, but a bit of an oversimplification. Accessibility is the key factor, and accessibility is determined by a multitude of factors such as power centralization, education, the traditions of a given society, and even the whims of whatever forces of nature produce magic-as-a-phenomenon in the first place. Then again, a big part of fantasy media is simplifying things that are actually very complicated in reality. Almost none of the world's actual problems can just be solved by punching the right person in the face, but the latter is more fun as a fantasy than untangling the Gordian Knot of interconnected issues the real world has. In short; yes, magic is fully capable of warping the ways of the world around it. However, it's not the only thing (or even the most important thing) that does so. I hear proposals like this video's a lot lately And while I am fascinated by the arguments, it's worth at least putting an asterisk at the end of any suggestion that just because magic is a *thing,* that the world therefore would look a lot better than it often gets portrayed in things like medieval settings.

[@petersmythe6462]

Ah. Keep in mind that even in a high magic setting, it is at least conceivable that it all goes to increasing rural population density rather than improving rural standard of living. You may have a world where magic allows billions of people to live on incredibly small farms, but extremely lethal airborne and insect-borne epidemics that can't be solved with better sanitation, and high background rates of malnutrition ensure that even though everyone is having 12 kids, only 2-3 are surviving to adulthood. There's not real a strict upper limit to what tech level or population can exist in an agrarian feudal-like state of society.

[@MBunn-uf1we]

In the world I created for my stories. Restoration school of magic via classical mages exists but it's outlawed in many places due to it's relationship with necromancy and that for non-magicals the magic will eat away at their life span unless there's substitute source of living mana like a plant. As a work around, Alchemists make an assortment medicines including potions of healing(but they can have side effects such as tumors) and there Mage surgeons trained in more mundane ways of healthcare, with a little magical assistance.

[@Fleshwarper]

This is all spot on. The way I justify the lack of human progress in my settings is with constant monster attacks.

[@jj-sc1kq]

Thanks. That was a nice video. Here's a couple of thoughts. Let's break it down into a couple of categories. 1 "folk medicine" - This is Grandmother's secret medicine. or maybe, "Go to the hut on the edge of the village, Crazy Eddie knows how to make medicine for that." And it is nearly as likely that these cures are placebos, as they are actual medicine. This comes about from people not having a cleric that can heal them (or teach them medicine) and thus they experiment with what is at hand. 2 "medical professionals" At some point, someone decides to collect these local remedies. At this point, the flowers that grow on the peak of Mount Fallspire, start to seem more rare. After all, the folk healers could head up there any time they wanted and pick plenty. But now people from across the kingdom or farther are coming to the one place that this flower exists. And they quickly pick so many that the flower is now rare and hard to find. These people are rarely clerics or have much magic. And they begin advancing theories and the scientific study of medicine. 3 "Medical Magic" Most commonly from clerics. (Druids often don't have a lot of interest in helping civilization as civilization often turns around and harms nature. Unless the disease or plague was unnatural, they might even take an opinion that the disease is natural and thus should run it's course.) Even the most novice of clerics can cast Cure Light occasionally. Some deities may have a problem with allowing too much magical healing as it encourages the people to become soft. Some may feel magical healing needs to be kept in reserve for emergency use. Even a church with a small army of low level casters could see all it's reserves of magical healing drained quickly in a battle or natural disaster. As for non-magical healing. Unless their God specifically commanded them to study it, it might not be something that comes up for many faiths. Over arching medical truths - Pointing out that modern disease theory might not mesh well with the setting is an interesting point. I'm unsure however what effect that knowledge would have on the setting. If I traveled back to the year 910AD and explained to all that I meet that diseases are caused by little monsters that are so small they can't be seen. And then when asked, admit that this isn't true for Hay Fever. Well, not only would most people not believe me, but even if they did, it would have no effect on how they treated the diseases. The God of diseases may have that knowledge, but why does anyone care if it won't affect how the disease is treated?" Final thought, yes, with spells like "Commune with Deity," you can learn a lot. But it would take a lot of castings to gain a modern doctor's basic knowledge of medical treatment. Further, if you were to cast a "yes or no" guidance like spell and ask things like "will this treatment work on bob?" You might get "yes." (Not communicated: "the placebo effect will cure him.") Then when you try to use your "divine confirmed" cure on the next patient and they don't improve, you are left to wondering why.

[@orikarru7877]

My world is an urban fantasy, and healing magics vs medicine is a thing I've thought on a great deal. Magically speaking, injuries and wounds are simple things to mend that take mere moments to recover from. Even grievous injuries like shattered ribs can be recovered within a few days. But.. there are limits. The body is easy to heal. The nervous system, not so much. If a spine is shattered, that cannot be healed. You can be transformed, certainly, and the transformation will be mobile. Yet when the spell ends, or if it is dispelled, you return to your crippled state. The medicine of the veiled sciences, though, that which the humans use, is strange in that where magic is strong, it is weak, and yet where magic fails, it succeeds. Medicine might speed recovery from injury, but a minor cut still takes days, a deep gash takes weeks, and bones take months to fully heal. But a spinal injury can, with expert surgery and treatment, potentially be recovered from. But it goes further. When the body dies, the Animus, that which unites Body, Mind, and Soul, dissolves. It is gone. A mage with an Understanding of Soul might be able to hold them united for a short time, but without immediate healing, as soon as the soul leaves, death has occurred. Except that the veiled sciences have created machines that will sustain body and mind, giving the animus time to regenerate while calling to the soul. If the soul is strong enough to return to the body, a person can wake from their lifeless sleep, and this to the fae is a far truer necromancy than any known magic, for no spell ever cast by mortal or god has ressurected anyone. I've more about diseases and cancers, but this should give enough of the idea of balance between technology and magic in my world.

[@chrisa84]

My approach is to have the items and magic listed in the player’s handbook represent the tools available to the player characters only. NPCs might be able to do something similar, but not exactly the same. Like an NPC cleric can raise the dead, but she looses a d6 con every time she does it, and is similarly weakened when curing certain diseases or curses. An NPC wizard can do anything I want or need him to do and not always follow the same rules as the pc wizard.

[@SusCalvin]

Most of the time I don't want to make up special rules for every dunce they run into. A good rule of thumb is that every tool the PCs can use, other people in the world with the right level or budget will have as well. Out there is a higghwayman with Sleep just for you.

[@chrisa84]

@@SusCalvin It's really not any extra work. Like if I've got a bandit that can put people to sleep, I'm a lot more likely to have him use a pendulum watch and spiral eyes and have the characters do a wisdom save or fall asleep rather than stop the game and look up the rules for the sleep spell. My point is to have the game mechanics follow the needs of the fictional world and limit ways that game mechanics could break the setting.

[@SusCalvin]

@@chrisa84 The nice part about procedure is that I don't need to look up Sleep. There is no special cases and variants to look up. I know it will Sleep 2d6 HD of targets, starting with the weakest. They get a save, things that do not sleep like undead are immune. Every Sleep spell does the same. If some dunce with Command jumps them, it does the same as their Command and every other Command. You can always say the bloke is jumping out holding a watch to use the spell. They met a thinly disguised Mandrake the magician in the dungeon last week, who tred to toss Command on one of them to throw their AR-10 away. I favor magic that looks like 1960's and 70's special effects. If you dislike a spell you can remove it entirely. I never figure out what to do with Wish.

[@cosmopoiesecriandomundos7446]

One of my fantasy settings does feature the 4 humors and their imbalances as a source of disease. In this world, nearly every living creature was made by an ancient god-like civilization, including bacteria. They didn't feel like making parasitic bacteria, that would be just mean. So most diseases come from either humor imbalance or from toxins, and physicians are aware of that. Viruses did evolve on their own, though, so physicians are confused about them. They are also responsible for causing some interesting diseases like vampirism and therianthropy.

[@hoffenwurdig1356]

I find it fascinating that, in one of the Witcher computer games, the character Vesemir mentions “hormones." He and other Witchers - and presumably at least some of the other healthcare specialists in the setting-know what hormones are. That is to say, the discussion about how Witchers are made is not framed solely in terms of alchemy and herbology. It's not only that the substances given to candidates to create Witchers sometimes work without permanent incapacitation or death; it's that the Witchers aware of their own grasp of bioscience in bioscientific terms.

[@SusCalvin]

Earthdawn is a game where magic has an impact. A low-level adept who might not be able to warp space and time, but can nudge harvests, create cheap magic charms, build elemental devices non-adepts can use and hold back disease. The world was a stable, prosperous empire before a transdimensional torture-spirit incursion. A major reason people are back out is the vast amount of magical fallout shelters that society constructed to operate as enclosed, warded underground cities for several years.

[@hoffenwurdig1356]

In "GURPS Technomancer," one of the worldbooks for the Generic Universal RolePlaying System, it is suggested that in that universe, epidemiologists working with "Hazardous Materials and Entities Team" (HAZMET) personnel discovered that "ambulatory necrotic plague" is caused by a class of bacteria that are themselves undead. I find this interesting because it leads into the fantasy worldbuilding idea that there might be not only the great orders of organic life, as we know in our universe, but also great orders of undeath. Specialists (in a sub-discipline that we ourselves do not possess) might then analyze those things and devise a taxonomy for them. Ever since reading about this fictional concept, I have had the fantasy idea there are vast ecologies of creatures -- perhaps alive, perhaps not -- which no scientist can percieve or study unless the scientist meets the prerequisite of no longer being alive.

[@ItsDaJax]

"What's that? You got a disease magic can't heal? Easy! We'll peck out the tainted blood with a Blue Jay."

[@nmscrowlee1565]

This is why I'm revamping the economy of my world to account for healing and other widespread tech/magic.

[@1ab23c4d5e6f]

My solution in my big campaign is one where infant mortality is rather low in most parts of the civilized world, and food yields are rather abundant as well. Its for this reason that theres such a big adventurer class of people, something like 45% or so of the population exists in some for of traditional adventuring ideal, be it a quest monkey, a trader, an explorer, a monster hunter, a mercenary, a wandering lover, etc. It is a world where the most common profession IS being someone who roams, since almost all of the available land is able to be tended by a smaller group of people and feed a great deal of people, theres a very big market for people who do more specialized oddball tasks.

[@jadencrawford2772]

I like your stuff. Some thoughts. You face a problem I've seen others have. If you don't have a particular magic in mind, when you talk about magic healing or anything else, is you can't get particular. You can't name a specific example of how the healing works, limits, and lore. Example base setting for these questions to be tested in could help. Keep up the work. I like how your thoughtful about this and have your notes in the video for when you get stuff wrong and want to make a mention of your gaps in knowledge.

[@fgregerfeaxcwfeffece]

Weather control is very high level magic in most settings that type of magic is in the mythical realm where most scholars aren't even sure it exists. Even plant growth is very advanced as it is a 3rd level spell, but yes that would be realistic for any bigger town. Well, if they cooperate with Druids. So I guess that would usually be a Cleric, Ranger or Bard thing.

[@RHRafford]

Love your videos, they've been a big help for me with my worldbuilding. One this this video didn't touch on which I feel it should have: Antibodies. In the real world diseases are cured by our bodies producing enough antibodies to kill off whatever virus or bacteria is causing the disease. How does magically curing a disease affect antibodies? What happens when a god cures everybody in the city of a plague and somebody carrying the plague shows up the next day, does the whole city get the plague again?

[@Andrewtr6]

The magic system for my fantasy world has healing potions but they are limited. Depending on the ingredients (and quality) the potion might just heal small flesh wounds, or it might heal lethal injuries and mend broken bones. However, they are limited in that the potions only heal physical wounds, not illness caused by a disease; if there are missing limbs or the bones are set, this could prevent the wound from healing; also poisons and curses can prevent a healing potion from working. Hygiene/Sanitation is an easy one to connect to magic. For my system, staying health which includes hygiene is important for casting magic. When it was noticed that bathing improved magic, it would soon become common to bath and stay clean. Disease I'm not sure about. There would be potions that can help treat symptoms I'm sure, but there could also be ingredients used for potions that have antimicrobial properties and can be used against bacterial, viral, and fungal infections. As for food, I want it to be balanced. If magic can easily be used to grow massive plants, there should be no reason that starvation or famine would be a problem. However, I don't want it to be overpowered. This is something I have to think more about. In my world, the gods didn't create the natural laws. Science is real. Humans and other animals arose from evolution. The gods came later as magic started to develop. Even when the gods create artificial life, they do so in the form of natural life (thus it has DNA and cells and is made from the same elements). With all that said, it should be pointed out that magic users have a much stronger immune system compared to the "muggles". They are less likely to get sick and even if they do, they are less likely to die from it even without medicine. For them, the average life expectancy would be 70-80 at least. Once medicine is made common, it would be something like 120. Because of this, it's common for mages to have multi-generational households. I'm definitely considering having a few magic based diseases. Also, mages would be less likely to get certain illnesses like cancer, but they still can. There's a higher survival rate but it's not 100%. However, monster attacks would be the main cause of death. What I don't want is for the healing magic to be based around old believes like that humors as it wouldn't make much sense if the human body worked the exact same way as it does in reality. While some of these concepts are based on real observations like the four humors, it was still pseudo-scientific. Rather than a balance between the humors, mages in my story need to have a balance between their physical, mental, and spiritual health. One thing I consider is surgery. As said, potions cannot heal missing limbs or wounds that are inflicted with poison or a curse. Poisons can be cured, but there might be a type of medical magic that deals with reattaching limbs and removing curses with surgery. I want magical surgery to follow similar ideas as medical surgery, but it would still be a different process. It probably would not require cutting into someone as it would be safer not to if it could be avoided.

[@probablythedm1669]

Never underestimate the human capacity to ignore any knowlegde that contradicts belief. As such, I think the spreaad of information would be a major issue. In centers of knowledge there might be a broader understanding of the world, but unless most people in he world are basically scolars, most people would be mostly unaware of how disease is treated and spreads but well aware who ir at least where to call on for aid when they need specialized help. I mean, considering we today, with all the evidence against it freely available to nearly anyone with a smartphone or internet access, still have millions of people who genuinelly believe that the earth is roughly 800 years old and all species descend from a pairing of two, I am not too confident in human intelligence in a world where knowledge is still spread by expensive books and oral tradition. We also have roavers on Mars and have observed most other bodies in our solarsystem, yet a large movement insists the world is a flat disc... Hence, I think the normal is that only rhe people who specialize in healing or magic actually know how these things work and most people just know where to turn when they need that kind of knowledge. This probably also means these people have a tremendous amount of respect afforded to them, especially healers, as they can regularly save lives where ever they go or in their home community. They'd also be feared if anyone has seen them use their magic for violence. 😱

[@llamatronian101]

Now I'm imagining a strain of tuberculosis with a sorceress bloodline. We'd all be doomed.

[@robertbemis9800]

Considering how many magical creatures consider children as their primary food source Magic can claim as many children in a magic world as our history

[@jesterknight6073]

So for my head cannon I think that if you was to use healing magic then you would still need basic aid. Like you need to reset a broken bone first then use healing magic to amplify the effect of the process. I'm posting this pre watch.

[@PopeRocket]

"Mortality Medicine, Magic Money" just about sums up the last 3 years..

[@pacoes1974]

One, have you ever thought about making something as small as a village with all your cultural and magical ideas. It would be interesting to see what it would look like. It would also be interesting to see what it would say about the roll of PC. Two, the challenge I see is that even 35 to 40% of the population could use magic, which would be beneath a CR 1. That and some will be Devine or Arcana in nature, and don't forget druids and their sort. Only druids can cast goodberry, for example. The other issue is that these experts would also have other roles in society, making healing difficult to access.

[@kellymurphy1098]

That bit about the god of disease is a good example of why when I build a fantasy setting, I either: 1. Don't have gods at all. 2. Take the Eberron approach where there may or may not be gods, but they are not immanent and do not intervene directly, or 3. Have gods that are not creator-gods and/or only make small interventions (See Lois McMaster Bujold's excellent Chalion books for a good example). Frankly having immanent, interventionist gods of the caliber of the hypothetical god of disease postulated here just causes SO many logic problems that I can't deal with them. It's one of my big gripes with the standard D&D settings (Eberron excepted, of course).

[@SusCalvin]

Eberron always feels like the magitek setting to me. Magic is so prevalent that magical equivalents of modern tools show up. People take a magical train. There's dang robot walkers. How out and about the gods are depends. In Dark Sun, the gods are dead and buried. You can play a cleric, but only the background cosmos give spells. Which means up to level 3 spells, I think. In Forgotten Realms, the gods had a punchout once but generally don't show up. Birthright has one where the gods died, and the greatest blokes of the world at that last battle became the new ones.

[@edwardcrow6385]

In 1 year 20 level 5 druids can make an entire lake’s worth of water

[@frantisekvrana3902]

In my world, non-magical disease is basically non-issue. Any proper city has at least one chapter of paladins with sole dedication to curing diseases. Villages don't have that, but since a regular village priest usually has Lesser Restoration and villages have a relativelly low population, diseases are not a problem there either.

[@camdenthompson4307]

honestly, I came up with the idea for my world that you actually need to know what the problem IS before you can cure it with magic. as well, only certain methods actually cure certain things. potions and alchemy can only really cure things like muscle weakness or a cough, similar to actual medicine, just more broadly. biggest example being healing potions, which cure wounds by replacing the blood within your body, usually with more of a certain type of blood cell which I forgot the name of, but it mostly is responsible for healing. however, you must first cover the wound first before you actually try to use a healing potion, or else you'll start spewing out more blood, either making it a problem again, or making it worse ( hence why it takes an action to use one, since you also need to cover the wound before you try to use it) healing spells can help with a majority of conditions, and even revive the dead (although that's usually only for clerics and uses VERY SPARINGLY). however, much like alchemy, you need to know what the problem is beforehand before you attempt to heal people with magic. otherwise, you could cause more issues, such as causing someones bones to grow larger than normal, or causing their wound to grow larger, hence why its usually trained by people such as clerics or even paladins, since they usually worship gods, who usually know what is actually going on more than their followers. lastly, when it comes to genetic illnesses (ranging from deformities to actual lycanthropy), they usually cannot be cured, with some very, VERY few exceptions. the reason why is actually theorized by people in the world as a concept known as the "full self" of healing, where people have a set, complete body, where nothing is wrong. wounds in this theory are viewed as affecting the "Full self" and hence, can be cured or healed. genetic illnesses on the other hand, are viewed as being a part of someone, and hence cannot be cured. which is supported as, when someone tries to has such illnesses gets wounded and then healed, the deformed area grows back as normal, as its simply an aspect of who they are.

[@CeleriaRosencroix]

Additional scenario: Magical healing *would* actually bring about the same sort of lifespan as we have in our real world, but monsters spawn at such a rate that society, broadly, is engaged in a constant arms race with them, and large portions of the population are forcibly employed in monster hunting militaries in order to keep them in check, resulting in large enough mortality rates amongst those 20-35 that the overall life expectancy of the population is dropped to medieval levels, and the societal elders and almost all people with political power are those who either come from industries that directly support war efforts and are thus exempt from drafting or are those who are veterans of careers that saw them fighting monsters until they were around 50. And maybe this is actually only a relatively recent state of affairs, simply because monsters have been getting more and more horrific over the course of the last few generations, forcing already established powers to become more militant and focused on defense to the greatest extent possible. Perhaps this sort of state of affairs is *only* actually possible because the few cities that remain beacons of light amidst the encroaching shadows of the world use teleportation circle networks to trade with one another and reinforce the defenses of their fellow cities in cases of greatest crisis.

[@npswm1314]

See: Arcanum: Steamworks of Might and Magic.

[@godsamongmen8003]

The idea of magic breaking the world is an old discussion. My solution -- I can't really think of any better one -- is to assume that magic is so rare almost nobody has access to it. As a side note, I played a game called Earthdawn (made by the owners of Shadowrun) in the 90s. This game world is an interesting take on how a high magic world might look.

[@timberwolfbrother]

I'm working on a world where magic and technology compete for advancement in basically every field, getting to an alternative industrial age in major countries, except for medical. Medical and healing is one of the few fields where the two work in mostly harmony to just keep advancing life-saving practices.

[@Calebgoblin]

If any single given cantrip in 5e actually existed and was as easy to access as cantrips are in game, the effects on world history would be positively mind boggling. Any damage can trip gives you the ability to instantly kill any average person or most living things in general. Utility cantrips like mending or prestidigitation would be countlessly useful for just about every single day of any person's life.

[@Calebgoblin]

Imagine barely ever having to replace a single one of your possessions, ever, or pay to have them repaired. Imagine being able to transform literally any remotely edible food into something that you would actually enjoy, or being able to quickly and simply illustrate essentially anything that you are thinking about.

[@AvangionQ]

Cure Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Remove Disease, Purify Food and Water, Create Food and Water, Goodberry, Plant Growth These spells would nullify most agricultural and medical problems. All you need is a 5th level Cleric, Druid and Wizard PS, I never thought about Commune as a useful spell in this regard, so thank you for that

[@hopefulhyena3400]

There's an optional spell in the game Fantasy Age that is just "Remove Disability". Now, it's the highest level healing spell, and is optional so some GM's might not allow it at all, but just the idea that a high level healer can just go "badibo gafedes, you are cured of diabetes" would have a huge impact on the world.

[@SusCalvin]

I think OD&D's vancian magic created a spell slot economy. How many blokes in the region has a spell slot for a certain spell, and how many spell slots do they got. Sometimes the prep time for a higher-level spell slot is a lot higher too, so a high-level spell-user would spend days of downtime to refill their entire library if a nasty encounter depleted them.

[@ronjaj.addams-ramstedt1023]

Regarding Down's syndrome: I am relieved and thankful that you added the text note at 9:11 that your wording was a mistake. Here's some additional food for thought about disabilities people are born with: TEDx Portland talk by Karen Gaffney: "I have one more chromosome than you. So what?" (apologies for no link, KZbin deleted my original comment when I included it)

[@evelynthepelican]

When you dm, do you have any particular house rules that you think should be considered by more people?

[@Xaphedo]

Here's a question for you, dear Grungeon Master: would you consider running any of your video ideas/scripts/drafts by your community for feedback? There are many "deep-dive" channels that do this, such as Technology Connections, and it always feel like a big leap in quality when they integrate comments dedicated community members make into their final content

[@sandmangreen4]

As I see it: magic could make those things disappear. But there are also magical things/being that WANT those sicknesses and problems to exist. For every god of healing, there is a god of corruption and sickness. The extremes are more common, but still balanced

[@viniciusjose8763]

I never understood how people, at least in Europe, took so long to associate disease with dirt. The Celts already had soap, but in the medieval era, people threw the "sewage" straight into the street and barely showered.

[@SusCalvin]

They kind of do, in guises like miasma theory or foul air etc. They know foreign objects in the body is bad. Medicine at the time depends more on smell and taste. The logistics of shit is hard to figure out. There was a lot of people involved in the collection and transportation of shit. There are parts they don't understand, like human-animal transfer of disease, microbes etc.

[@stm7810]

A world I'm working on is quite the opposite, the gods made resurrection of children way easier to the point even a standard village priest can pull it off, they're easier to magically heal and generally blessed, but once you're in adulthood you're on your own, so there's that higher mortality as you get older and still have to do the risky jobs that maintain life, face disease each winter etc. Think about it, a god in fantasy is finite like the old gods rather than an infinite garry stu like the Abrahamic gods, so they'd dedicate their power to good which would be protection of children.

[@LP-ow4hw]

Yeah, most fantasy, even modern superhero stories suffer from confining the effects of their magic system to combat related actions. In reality farmers/labourers/industrialists/everyone using magic would drastically outcompete those depending on conventional methods if there is not a plausible reason put in place against this.

[@AndyEst1]

You can also observe the opposite: Magic can heal, but it can also cause diseases. I am not referring to a specific magic or ritual that induces a particular disease, but rather, diseases like diabetes are becoming more common nowadays due to the sugar in our food. Therefore, we should anticipate the negative effects that magic might have on population health.

[@MagnusItland]

My current story world has magic specializations. Casting a mean fireball does not help you heal people, since they are completely different specializations and you have to go back to Magic College to learn the basics of a new specialization. Since war, bandits, rebels, cultists, and giant monsters are major killers, you simply cannot afford to let all mages study the healing of diseases. Someone needs to lob giant fireballs at the enemy, or your healthy population will become the slaves of your power-hungry neighbor or dark lord, or simply get eaten by a hungry monster.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

Without putting much thought in to it, I never did include mundane ailments, like the cold. When I have included sickness, it's generally been magic resistant, or even magic caused. I've even thought about divine sickness, but never used it.

[@RavenCloak13]

Because that's boring for a story and or a random thing you put in and if you didn't focus on it, why even bring it up? No one cares about such things if it's not the main thing your focusing on.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

@@RavenCloak13 I partly agree. Minor details sell the viability of a world, or can cause it to fall apart, if they are poorly conceived. Too many details, and the important information gets lost among the fluff. Too little, and the world looses it's dimensionality.

[@RavenCloak13]

​@@RyuuKageDesu Depends. Could just give off handed comments or actually add the reagents your supposed to have for spells and make it a whole thing of actually buying it or even have your players or such in a TTRPG want to setup a farm or something to keep up their reagents. Honestly my thing with reagents being mid for a lot of people is make them be stronger then non-reagent casted spells. Easy fix to make them a reason to be used and gives you a way to bring in such small things like sickness and alignments as story threads you can give to a cleric, druid or something and just gives life to a town and world setting. Won't feel as intrusive if you make it a quest to help the shop keep secure supplies if they mention they need help after mentioning need for short supplies.

[@RyuuKageDesu]

@@RavenCloak13 Had a player who thought it was cool to use magic components, but didn't want to bog the game down, being the only wizard, actually collecting gathering everything. We explained that he was constantly gathering those odd things, and gold was taken in the moment for the expensive components. It all worked fine, and everyone at the table thought it was a cool detail for the casting. All to say, true enough. It really depends on the deal the players are interested in, and if it helps the story.

[@thoi412]

What if a significant portion of a population was immune to magical effects, both good and ill. Yeah, you can't get hit by a fireball but you can't get cured either. In a world where for some people, healing was hardly a consideration, that could be quite the obstacle to growing into adulthood.

[@joebobby8371]

I imagine the exp or whatever else could be used to level non player charecters up is not understood at all and most clerics are level 1-3 with bishops at 4 or 5 and a single figurehead at level 6 they are scarce and whwn there are hundreds of people that need medical attention yu don't have the spell slots. Druids are rare in civilized areas maybe they trade but you almost have to imagine you can't get them to consistently increase the yield of your farms

[@SusCalvin]

Earthdawn is a game where magic is not limited. An elementalist of relatively low level can toss plant growth spells all day long. They mostly do it in areas where natural growth isn't working or during emergencies. Or the magical background of the world is an always-on effect.

[@morrigankasa570]

You made some interesting points in this video. But I personally feel in the case of D&D 5e specifically that Lifespan Potential outside of combat is screwed up. Seriously, any Race having less then 100 years is nonsense! Sure if it is Homebrewed to be low magic setting, then ok can make sense. Or if that life expectancy is taking into account combat/dangerous gigantic creatures like Dragons. Then that can make sense. BUT OUTSIDE OF THOSE THINGS NO RACE SHOULD HAVE LESS THEN 100 YEARS LIFESPAN!!! Yet many of them do! Any basic Cleric can heal you, heck many other Magical Classes can heal you! So unless there is little-no Magic in the Fantasy setting, Magic would indeed completely change things.

[@nightpups5835]

There is a reason to argue to move life expectancy from birth upping it to the age of 5. It covers a lot of the infant and toddler mortality issues and gives a modern person a better understanding of the life of adults in history instead of just be a marker for early child care. (a very important thing but we have other numbers for that)

[@gethriel]

Yes it does, because NOBODY READS WHAT LOSING HP MEANS. It DOESN'T mean stabbings deep lacerations, and other actual wounds with lots of blood loss. It accounts more for bruises, knocks, sprains, etc. In fact the only actual cuts would occur on a "critical hit" - maybe.

[@Dreamfox-df6bg]

These Clerics pray to deities and the more pious of those receive spells. These all deities stand for something and high-ranking Clerics can even commune with representatives of the deities they pray to. Now, if these and the non-spell receiving members of their temple believe in the deity, wouldn't they study what the deity stands for? And share it freely? Temples would not only become storehouses of knowledge, but in some cases even more trailblazing than specialists in other fields? Blacksmiths have an interest in advancing their craft and can do so by trying until they succeed. Healers however won't be doing their craft long if their patients die all the time while the healer tries to advance their field. Clerics of a deity that stands for healing can get knowledge from a secure source and in turn teach that to the healers. The field of medicine would grow much faster than in a non-magical world. And with temples being storehouses of that knowledge, sharing it amongst themselves even major wars would not result in a loss of knowledge. After the war temples from outside the conflict zones would copy their books and send them to temples that are rebuild. And now use that logic on all the deities and their believers. Mind that this doesn't even touch magical healing. In large disasters spellcasting Clerics could triage and keep the most badly wounded alive while non-spellcasting Clerics and healers keep everyone else alive. Between healing magic and medicine many more people would survive wars and disasters. Knowing what to look for in nutrition could draw out sieges to the point where they become pointless. And so on. Just a thought.

[@SusCalvin]

Temples in Forgotten Realms often do this. They promote the ideals of their god through lay members as well as clergy. A temple of Lathander might sponsor arts and host passing bards. A temple of Gond is half a workshop. Every musician is not part of the temple, and every lawyer is not automatically a worshiper of Helm. Lay members can't be granted the power of the god, usually. Or they can do so, but that means training you to a level 1 cleric and probably dedicating yourself full-time to the god. But all temples have some lay members, deacons who don't dedicate themselves full-time or members who trained in another class.

[@georgecook83]

But…that ships surgeon wouldn’t know about germs…so I can’t see why they would be cleaner. Doctors became clean because of the discovery of germs. Not the desire to be clean.

[@Dharengo]

It's very simple. Not even the god of disease knows how disease _really_ works.

[@anvos658]

I don't really see a reason magic need make cellular theory not exist, rather than being something that is layered on top that more replaces the why than the how.

[@elgatochurro]

If theres hit points? yknow numbers for life? it makes no sense but a wound system like Savage Worlds makes total sense as the only wounds you care about actually dealt enough damage to wound you. As in enough of these and you fall unconscious and start bleeding out. Hit points overall dont make sense and are a waste of time to map out.

[@SusCalvin]

There are some simulationist systems. I wouldn't mind them if they didn't take a lot longer to use. Someone thinks they could make a realistic system, and soon you got yourself hit locations, bleeding rates and shock level. Some OSR games use a grit/flesh system. Grit is endurance, pain tolerance, abstracted combat luck etc. This goes first during fights. Grit is regained easily, resting or Flesh is serious bodily harm, you have been slashed and hit with a gunshot. Flesh is a smaller pool, heals slow and might have a cap. Some threats like a backstab, poison or falling from a building might bypass grit and strike flesh right off. WFRP's Wounds system uses Wounds, always limited, as a buffer against critical injuries. At 0 Wounds a character does not die, but every wound hereafter is a crit injury. This is where people get their head impacted.

[@elgatochurro]

@@SusCalvin SWADE is simply better, and abstract but focused on realism unless you want it. You need to be hit, and then be hit hard ENOUGH to wound. That's it. True to it's name sake, it's quite savage for players as it is enemies. There's more complexity to the system if ever desired but it's risk vs benefit like knocking a weapon out of someone's hand is harder to do, you can even try breaking it or their shield, gun, ANYTHING. Wounds restore very slowly, realistically taking days without proper equipment or magic. I say this because it's a single system you use to run any possible setting you desire. I can take magic out of my world, out of back in, sci Fi, modern, anything feels possible with savage worlds. Again though for lethality last night our man got hit with a spear that hit him with so much damage it almost knocked him out right away. He was unharmed and down to one more will incapacitate him in one simple blow by a mob unit. I also only rolled well enough to heal him one wound per cast. It keeps you on your toes. Even just shaking someone without wounding then makes them vulnerable and easier to harm. It doesn't feel like a safe combat

[@SusCalvin]

@@elgatochurro Cyberpunk 2020 tracked your severity of wounds, and made you roll death saves. Pople don't have a set limit where they reach 0 hp, they roll increasingly hard saves to stay up. Same to avoid dropping out unconcious. People don't level up their toughness at all, they can become more skilled or get better armour. BRP games like Cthulhu doesn't level up hp either. Neither does Classic Traveller. People can get better kit, better skill, better plans. We found that armour made the difference in Delta Green, a lethal hit often turned into a merely disabling one. People do not level up some sort of abstract damage resistance.

[@elgatochurro]

@@SusCalvin it's not an abstract damage resistance in swade, it's your body's endurance, vigor. And it hardly ever goes up. With the exploding dice anyone can face a lethal attack regardless. Armor just cushions the hit

[@jonathanwells223]

In a d&d style fantasy world, alchemical principles are correct and magic is a direct manipulation of the intrinsically alchemical nature of that universe. Why else do you think a fireball requires a few of the ingredients for gunpowder to cast or why throwing a lightning bolt requires a bit of fur and an amber rod?

[@rol9834]

Why would the gods keep knowledge of medicine to themselves? Well, it keeps the mortals praying and dependent on them.

[@SusCalvin]

In WFRP, it is rare to see magical healing. People see more apothecaries, barber-surgeons and physicians than wizards and clerics. There are rules for renaissance surgery, diagnostics and treatment of disease and prosthetics. In OD&D it wasn't impossible to get non-magical healing. A character had a natural healing rate and would sit off downtime. Getting a non-magical medic increased this rate. In Esoteric Enterprises, all the forgotten gods of the world are jealous things who demand worship and fealty. The state and the police suppress all cults and force them into the undercity. Displaying the symbols and using the power of the gods draws police attention.

[@SusCalvin]

My friends, and some other OSR systems, use rules where there is no line between clerical and wizardly magic. In Esoteric Enterprises, you can go to the city hospital. They will ask awkward questions if you show up with gunshot wounds wearing a ballistic vest and a backpack with ketamine and a magic pistol. Your type of people seek out underground clinics with no questions. There is a Doctor class, a non-magical healer, who mechanically uses lay on hands with a turn of work. People can roll Medicine to use first aid and stop bleeding.

[@petersmythe6462]

Life expectancy wasn't 30 until very recently (1800s) or unless you mean for nobility or aristocracy or nomadic hunter gatherers safe from famine and disease and carefully regulating their reproductive cycles. No. Life expectancy in the iron age was often as low as 10.

[@TheAchilles26]

You're demonstrating a very thorough lack of understanding of life expectancy. Here's how it essentially worked: You had a very high chance of dying before the age of five to disease. If you made it past five, your most likely death would be between about 16 and 40, either violently if a man, or childbirth if a woman (although even in that last case you probably survived SEVERAL births before the one that actually killed you) If you made it past that, you actually have a really good chance to make it to 60+, or even 80+ in one of the societies that figured out the benefits of oral hygiene faster.

[@jgr7487]

I disagree with you: kings and governors would would want to make sure that fields are blessed & that the populace is healthy. Part of the trope of undead armies is a ruler having control over a force that never stops. As most war deaths back then were related to injuries & to infections caught in the battlefield. If you have war healers patching your army, you can make it work almost as well as an early-modern army way back when. If you have more healthy people, you will need more food to feed all those mouths, thus more fertile fields are vital. If you have a giant population of veterans, who can turn on you, you need to have all those healers & blessings-givers being part of your government. There you have it: state-sponsored healthcare in the Bronze Age.

[@SusCalvin]

In Birthright the domain level D&D game, clerics and wizards could toss domain-level spells. Spells that take a domain action to cast, but can have an effect on a province scale. Then they could toss a spell that generally improved the productivity or resistance to spies or something of a province. It played into the action economy of Birthright. Tossing spells cost a lot of cash, if you could talk the baron and some guild blokes into bankrolling these spells, you could do it often. It also meant this spell is what your high priest and their entire organization works on for a couple months, and you might have other domain actions your organization wants to do. In BR, temples is a separate type of holding. A polity can have a ruler who is combined spiritual and secular head and runs both temples and the cop station. But the drawback is always that one political entity can't do everything. Temples can be allied with the state, dwarf temples are often a trifecta of power in dwarf nations, along with the crown and the industrial cartels.

[@jackr2287]

I'm not yet hard agaisnt, but I'm squinting already. I'm criticizing with the assumption you are basing out of 5e, RAW, as you twice reference 5e spells: 4:03. There is the assumption of a certain abundance that, I'm going to leave room for you to address. 5e offers no clear guidance on how abundant or rare various leveled NPCs there are, in relation to the world. But a good number from 1e is... in an adventuring area? As high as 1 in 50. In well settled areas? 1 in 5000. Big jump. And there are even less and less as you climb in levels. There aren't enough spell casters of any level, in AD&D, to establish a broad dominance over the natural world's crippling diseases. Not by default at least. 2. Re: druids are not necessarily the friends of civilization. In fact they might take a hard stance against. And again, how common are they? And to what size will they ever attempt to achieve as their organizations? 3. Clerics aren't there just to provide excellent health and good crops also. They are there to advocate for their god. Taking inspiration from the Greco-Roman pagan examples, you don't get a very good match for what a cleric in modern games do. Take the apostles of Jesus and the works of the prophets of the Jews, and you start seeing the commonality in the spells. 4. High level magic in modern systems, will only exist in sufficiently violent settings, RAW. Since XP is derived from killing monsters, bandits, etc..., once you kill all the monsters, no more PC class adventurers, or their spells. It's not like you just go to school for this stuff. If you wish to rationalize you do... now you need sufficient infrastructure, and regulate magic more carefully, and figure out the timescales at which someone goes from knowing how to just barely clean their clothes, to casting world ending spells. 5. Magic is finite in a day, and not without costs. 8:35 "Why haven't the gods bestowed germ theory?!" The laws that constrain gods says no. Unlike people, gods can't break their laws. Just a universal constrain. If you want germ theory, fund the experiments of a monk to figure it out. 17:40 You folks need to read the psionics table in the 1e AD&D DMG. The world is assumed to be very dangerous. There are goblins and orcs, pegasi and bugbears, demons and fairies, MFing dragons and giants, just out there, in the darkness. If you are unlucky enough to find yourself with psionic talent, you're more likely than not dead inside a year.

[@jgr7487]

I wouldn't go back to the Middle ages, but to ancient Babylon, where exorcists would heal people from illnesses & (try to) make sure babies were born without problems. Likewise, biblical priests were the ones to whom the sick should go to ask those same boons. Besides that, even today, we see faith healers chanting old blessings in rural areas of developed and developing countries. In a nutshell: Clerics, Druids, & Paladins would be everywhere healing people & blessing their fieldsin fantasy worlds.

[@TheAchilles26]

Paladins wouldn't be going around healing people and blessing fields, as they'd have a very different role to fill: mostly hunting down and destroying monsters, fiends, undead, necromancers, and fiend summoning cults.

[@jgr7487]

@@TheAchilles26 They would go around fighting baby-snatching monsters. See the Babylonian origin of some D&D monsters.

[@TheAchilles26]

@@jgr7487 *SUMERIAN origin. Pretty much all Babylonian mythology was lifted wholesale from the Sumerians by way of the Akkadians

[@beaupicking]

very phlegmatic in your description