Guest tries REALLY hard to defend God against Jovan

[@rmelzhim6033]

Please use the filing cabinet analogy more often I'd love to see how these Christians reply to it. 1) There is a filing cabinet with an infinite amount of folders in it. 2) Each folder contains a different version of our universe, where things are slightly different. 3) There is a folder where everyone has free will, and everyone CHOOSES only good things. There is no suffering, no evil, 100% free will, everyone is happy, everyone goes to heaven. Hell is empty. Satan never CHOSE to rebel, and freely continued to love and worship God. 4) God knows all, sees all, but didn't pick this folder. He picked a folder filled with garbage and evil and violence instead. WHY?

[@brockelSprout]

Sorry I’m late, I just saw your comment, but I’d like to see if I can re-contextualize this… This is long so buckle up….. First of all, this is an awesome way to articulate the complaint thousands upon thousands have. You aren’t questioning the concept of free will (which so many Christian apologists use as the primary argument) but rather the concept of God CHOOSING a world that is broken. But it ultimately boils down to this: “Why didn’t God create the version of us that didn’t choose sin” I have 2 points. 1. The existence of a world where everyone “Chose” to be good and righteous has no real evidence for existing. For all we know, there could be an infinite amount of only broken worlds. (Inversely, they all could already exist and we just haven’t found them… ) Just because you can imagine something, doesn’t mean it actually exists in the world we live in. Hypotheticals that bend what we know of reality don’t get us super far in terms of moral dilemmas… “Would you kill hitler if you went back in time?” “Idk… we can’t go back in time” (THIS is what many Christian’s mean when they say “God’s plan is beyond understanding” however annoying that saying can be … there may be more metaphysical rules or philosophical context that we don’t or can’t know about or comprehend.) That being said, I totally understand your question. Additionally, those “alternate versions” wouldn’t really be YOU *technically* they would be clones by the same name. (but that is a discussion for another time.) This is a pretty lame argument and doesn’t help much-I know-but it needed to be said… 2. My second point goes back to the CONCEPT of free will as a whole, not whether or not it exists. This is the response I hope you were looking for. Free will, in the dictionary: the power of acting without the constraint (limitation) of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion. In other words: acting as if both options are equally valid and possible. So.. If God chooses the “File” that contains no sin… … HE would be making the decision for you to spend eternity with him, NOT YOU. Therefore, completely undermining the entire concept of free will, as the possibility of going astray becomes an impossibility. I’ll rephrase: A world where God chooses the EXACT right “file” would fundamentally be no different from a world where he gets rid of the option entirely (no free will.) “Uh oh… looks like John lied to his mom in this timeline…. Let’s completely ignore his real decision so that he HAS to spend time with me for eternity.” Now, I know your #1 rebuttal would likely be something along the lines of “but that version of me really DID choose him!! So what’s the problem here?? Why didn’t he go with that one?” And that is where point #1 comes back. It doesn’t matter if 99.999999 repeating % of all of the “you” In the multiverse TRULY DO choose to repent and follow God… or maybe even never sin (however unlikely). He wants YOU TOO…. The REAL you that actually exists right here…. Not a replica with the same DNA… he wants the one who-right now-is actively taking the time to read complex philosophy from a stranger on KZbin. The type of person who isn’t worried about what millions say about a religion and only wants real truth. The one not shackled by God’s forceful decision on where you go after death. If you were the ONLY person in the multiverse to sin…. He wouldn’t HESITATE FOR A SECOND to sacrifice himself and go through excruciating pain just for you. (please read Luke 15) All you have to do is put your love and trust in him. I hope this helped answer your amazing and important question.

[@Loto1989]

There is no such thing as free will.

[@IHMadeThis]

Religious people like this caller are terrifying.

[@gigijnbaptiste6974]

They're the ones who try to curtail our rights in public administration.

[@WastelandBowman]

“And what did god say in response to Satan?” Ad: Knock knock! Yum yum! Breakfast is here!

[@Thatalbinodude]

I got a Betterhelp ad lmao, so mine said "Therapy is honestly wonderful for me...."

[@russellh9894]

13:56 I hate when callers say "I'll let you talk" as is they have any power in this convo. No, Jovan let's YOU talk. It's Jovan's space not yours.

[@JasonAntwi]

You start to realise that most people who are religious are just the very fools their own bible talk about.

[@ahh_yes_mr_bax]

Wow guest self owned right out of the gate and was desperate to avoid responsibility for the crap she said.

[@quinn7427]

She brings up the problem, she causes the roadblock, and then gets upset that the topic of conversation hasn't changed yet.

[@Drakid13Re3kt]

kinda girl boss behavior tbh

[@B0K0691]

She is awful

[@Ricklyplinth]

"well im not god, i dont know what's in his heart and mind" as a defense for his actions is wild.

[@Jeremo-FD]

People like that also seem to know exactly what's in God's heart & mind when it's beneficial to them.

[@personman2346]

male goes by male/maleself, some ally you are

[@Eshu666]

Yet because a book is so important, he can't just ask hot right there. He has to assume what a god he claims to kinda know, thinks. Good way of avoiding questions and the burden of defending evil and shifting blame.

[@NegZ0]

I have never heard a christan defends their god without sounding like an abuse victim defending their abuser. 🫤

[@kenchairtoe]

Tell the same stories and replace “god” with “spouse” and suddenly he’s the worst domestic abuser you can imagine. “Sometimes you just make me so angry I just lose it” “I didn’t love my spouse hard enough so he tortured me.” “I didn’t everything right, but my spouse had his friend kill everyone and everything I worked for to test me. But then he bought me pretty things afterward so it’s okay”

[@CosmicMapping]

Okay but I’d sell my soul to the devil for a woman to do this to me tho

[@BinarySecond]

This dude is so dumb. He thought he had Jovan saying god is all knowing etc. like thats Jovan conceding some point. Utter simpleton

[@Timeskipper-g2n]

You can tell they're complete fucking idiots when they start arguing and whining when they're asked for their pronouns tbh

[@Acidfunkish]

If you put your newly ambular toddler in a playpen around your hot stove, and tell them not to touch it or else, but then you also put a pie on it... Who's to really blame when your toddler ends up burning itself? Adam & Eve didn't yet have the knowledge of the tree of good and evil. They couldn't have known what "wrong" was, really.

[@jessartisan]

It's even worse. God is the one who points out and brags about Job to Satan in the first place.

[@Furry-ousNews]

Satan literally went 😏 and it broke god so bad he smote Jobs whole world about it. God is an egotistical loser

[@lulolie]

KNOWING that satan would challenge him

[@jessartisan]

@@lulolie It's a truly heinous story.

[@dirtjur]

God is also the one who does the things to Job.

[@Chrisped.to.perfection]

"hey see that guy? That guy trusts me, I dare you to ruin that trust" what a benevolent god

[@russellh9894]

9:54 The most dangerous part of theism. "God can do whatever he wants for any reason" is such a dangerous mindset. This means his god could do anything and it would be ok to this caller.

[@jamesg.1144]

Natural consequences= infinite punishment for finite offenses

[@bionikc]

"Love me or i will murder you." - god

[@Cyrinil142]

Except Job's kids. God had them killed BECAUSE Job loved him.

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

@@Cyrinil142 Average Christian apologist: "It's okay, because god gave Job a replacement family!"

[@samomileteas]

"God's gonna eventually prevent all evil" that's crazy cause in Isaiah 45:7 it says specifically that god CREATED evil. So he could've made this universe without evil but he purposely chose not to. That's not a loving god.

[@Boneworm852]

At 12:15 or so he gives the whole game away, basically "god can torment you however he wants, might makes right and god's the mightiest"

[@trashpanda3837]

How damn difficult is it to simply say "he/him."

[@TheBxKid1500]

They never answer the questions,they just move the goalposts when they have no answers

[@Ruby_Eve]

God created evil. It's in Isaiah

[@cosmicghost811]

​@@Ruby_Eve Not only that, but God also boasts that he is capable of evil WORSE THAN SATAN.

[@MatthewScottKarr]

What else can they do? They’ve been trying to find facts to prove a fantasy story for thousands of years and still have nothing. It’s top-shelf Propaganda and brainwashing!

[@B0K0691]

@@Ruby_Eve Therefore, god is evil

[@Ceeckoful]

I don't know how Christians don't grasp the point of the Job story was to excuse when God lets his followers suffer etc as a "test" the creators of the religion knew people would wise up that their god wasn't real so they created this narrative.

[@briennedaugherty4482]

The breathless, frantic pace of theists in these types of debates is always telling. They are SO nervous about their beliefs being challenged they have to interrupt, deflect, overtalk, and vomit out anything they can think of the moment it occurs to them.

[@Kulascus]

The cop out at the end is crazy 😂😂😂 Like he didn't know that was your position from the start

[@antoniusgrave1348]

These people can not engage in hypotheticals.

[@TheRealVarzens]

"God has a plan, but we still have free will" So, can one actually ruin god's plans (demonstrating there is free will and that god is not omniscient) or not (demonstrating we don't have free will)?

[@terrorsaurus8683]

@TheRealVarzens Does us being able to go against God's plans makes us more powerful than God?

[@TheRealVarzens]

@terrorsaurus8683 how is that relevant to what I said?

[@terrorsaurus8683]

@TheRealVarzens It's just a question I have always had. If we can ruin God's plans doesn't that make us in some way more powerful than God?

[@UltraBall23]

@@terrorsaurus8683yes.

[@russellh9894]

I love the whiteboard.

[@Furry-ousNews]

Jovan summoned the white board of god destruction. It was *super effective*

[@LightGlyphRasengan]

Yeah I'm def liking the new thumbnails. Also God is literally to blame for all the evil that exists in the world. Morality is relative and I shouldn't need an invisible made up entity to tell me how to be a good person. Literally the fear of damnation to make you do good, doesn't make you good. You're being bribed with the opportunity of a better life in the next, one we don't even know exists. Literally doing good to save your soul doesn't make you any better than if you didn't follow god

[@StatiCraft3712]

“There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” - “I guess that might be described as bad.”

[@stankzilla8393]

It's so frustrating talking to these people, they have a convenient answer for everything regardless if it makes sense 🙄

[@StatiCraft3712]

God I hate when people cannot understand this.

[@markberndt8108]

God has an idea of a plan for heaven after the rapture? But hasn’t yet implemented… why does this “I have a plan or an idea” concept resonate so well recently?

[@Furry-ousNews]

God has concepts of a heaven 😏

[@crankheart]

@@Furry-ousNews you beat me to it noooooo

[@mistercleantm5667]

Dude confuses “true love” with operant and classical conditioning

[@NicolasSorzano-nm3uw]

I will admit, a christian trying to make hell look good? I was not expecting that.

[@galenhuber9364]

The christian spiral is both hilarious and sad. Logic makes their gears jam up so bad 😂

[@stefanhuber7357]

This guy plays dodgeball on the weekends

[@bodhiBit]

God has "concepts" of a plan :p

[@Arlondev]

As an atheist, I disagree with using the christian framework to judge god, because one of the key things (explored in the book of Job, no less) about the christian framework is that god can kinda do whatever he wants and he's above being questioned. Towards the end of the book, Job was like "dude, what the fuck?" and god just launched into a pages-long rant about how he's god and how he can basically do whatever he wants. Which is shitty, but that's the christian perspective, god is god and god can do whatever he wants. I would point out that morality is subjective regardless of whether or not god exists. It's just that, if god exists, you have subjective morality being enforced by an all-encompassing authoritarian who is above morality and will torture you for stepping out of line. And that the morality that Christians say comes from god, the common moral principles our laws are based around in the west, are based more on ancient Greek and Roman religion than on Christianity. And that, according to these moral philosophies, god is evil. He falls short of the (Albeit imperfect) moral system we use most commonly today, a moral system that Christians would probably argue comes from god until they realize that it didn't, and that he flagrantly fails to live up to it. God is so immoral that we basically just ignore his moral code and follow the moral teachings of a pantheon of hedonistic gods who people don't even worship anymore. How shitty does god have to be for someone to say "Eh, I'm just gonna stick with Zeus, thanks."

[@ShadowsArch]

Why would it not make sense to apply the same rules they use against their own logic? The best way to point out a flaw in a social system is to test it on who created it, no?

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

​​@@ShadowsArch because in their minds good = not burning in hell. God doesn't have rules. If God looks evil then God just knows something we don't and we have no right to judge him. Their logic is functionally "might makes right" which is consistent even if individuals aren't. Edit: not saying that you're wrong to think the way that you do but it doesn't apply to how people make exceptions here. He is literally okay with God killing children.

[@jessartisan]

That may be true for the person being directly spoken to, but there are others listening who could benefit from this kind of argument. A lot of former Christians have deconstructed after learning what the Bible actually says and means. Many never read it for themselves.

[@comyuse9103]

@@ShadowsArch because that isn't the logic. authority is good and good is authority to these broken things we call christians.

[@ShadowsArch]

@comyuse9103 I only stated to use their logic to try to paint the bigger picture. They either just can't see or it's just willful ignorance.

[@RJLK0518]

Wow, if the first 3 minutes are any indication, there will be a LOT of 🏃‍♂️ in this debate

[@suburban-vampire]

"objective morality" is like "dry water"

[@Woodtiger123]

How?

[@suburban-vampire]

@Woodtiger123 it's an oxymoron

[@Woodtiger123]

@suburban-vampire what? That makes no sense. Is rape acceptable in any circumstance? If not then that would be objective morality. I'm not sure how you could argue against that.

[@suburban-vampire]

@@Woodtiger123 all moral questions are, necessarily, asked by people operating from a subjective perspective. Newsflash: just because you make a rule saying X behavior is wrong or bad doesn't actually mean everyone will agree on what counts as behavior X.

[@Woodtiger123]

@suburban-vampire so rape is ok in your opinion? Slavery is ok? That's not subjective. Objective truth and objective morality excist just like mathematics. 2+2 will always = 4.

[@gevivil9316]

The whiteboard was needed

[@michaelmccartney6403]

Why are these so called Christians so triggered...all..the...time.

[@russellh9894]

24:18 "I would assume it's not the best of places" These callers are WILD.

[@Shea4059]

When they hit you with "god's plan" ask them if anything can happen outside of his plan. 1 step to prove they don't believe in free will

[@bigtuna9402]

Jovan would have COOKED in the very early days of KZbin when these debates were everywhere

[@baianojogano7607]

this whole conversation resume in "evil is not evil if is god doing the evil"

[@pengasgaming1816]

Alina’s giggling during the pronouns debacle is so funny

[@broadcastbard]

Yet another example of a theist who never questioned their beliefs and male probably thinks male (the pronoun male wanted, right?) won.

[@tylrmrtn98]

If you think God created everything to be exactly what it will be, then nobody has choice. You don't get to have it both ways. If I write a book, the characters, the galaxies, atmosphere and events won't do anything spontaneous. They have zero free will. It is all going according to my plan.

[@ModernCelt]

That boy can RUN! He makes Mr. Gump look positively stationary.

[@kaelrebric]

I just spit my coffee out reading this. Thank you! Not being sarcastic*

[@PHDinADHD]

The amount of motivated reasoning is just so bizarre. This is your brain on Evangelicalism.

[@stephenhouston6990]

He used the Bible as an infallible and absolutely true depiction of God, then turned around and said the depiction of Hell as laid out in the Bible might not necessarily be the truth. Classic case of cherry-picking parts of the Bible to support the narrative you want to convey to others.

[@NegZ0]

Dude thought that if a fictional character is proven to be real, you absolutely have to follow and worship them. 😂

[@comyuse9103]

even if YHWH was real i'd soon burn in hell for all eternity than follow that horrid monster.

[@miguelsimoes5883]

It still baffles me to my core how people still try to rationalize their faith. It you have faith in something, that is totally fine, more power to ya. That's where HOPE comes from, nothing wrong with that. But please understand that faith is on the opposite side of reasoning, by definition. If faith could be justified, the conversation would not be about belief but about probability. I grew up evangelical and believe me, all this guest's takes are taken as amazing logic slam dunks in a church context. They get defensive and really angry the moment they understand these lazy takes do not work anywhere outside that context.

[@evanhinkelman4511]

either with a biblical view or a scientific view, we do not have free will.

[@boot2470]

He couldn’t prove u wrong at all

[@acrylictomato]

Guy just wanted to preach

[@citatap]

it will always amuse me when people call in to jovans stream and then proceed to get all pissy when they have to follow the same rules that the host has set for every guest for his stream. like if having to give your pronouns is SUCH a big deal then just hang up at that point

[@321bytor]

This caller is awful. What a maroon

[@nlsnmrgn_theblukid]

Ty @jovan. You can hear the uncertainty from the caller. Every question he has to quantify and justify the evil that his make-believe friend acts out

[@Purfunxion]

That goalpost sure is noisy as its being moved

[@jasonevans7260]

And I was just waiting for Jovan to ask this guy about god's preferred pronouns. LOL

[@dead_inside674]

God- Forbids gambling. Makes bet with Satan just for clout

[@KByrd]

W. L. Or. Whatever. Long ago, theakkiqueen4655 lived in the comment section in harmony. Then, everything changed when the algorithm attacked. Only theakkiqueen4655, master of all four words, could stop them, but when the world needed them most, they vanished...

[@Srcsqwrn]

Rest in peeps

[@IamValak-j9e]

that was a tap dance Fred Estaire would have been proud off

[@SynthariaNix]

You are soo good at defusing things. Thanks for the wonderful video!

[@morganm1225]

Love a Jovan religion debate 😊 and with the white board?!?! Amazing 👏👏👏👏👏👏

[@Duderf-go4nq]

Why is the caller so angry… I thought being religious was supposed to bring peace to your soul.

[@gigijnbaptiste6974]

This entire exchange was funnier than most. Jovan is super patient.

[@MossyMints44]

Jovan VS God sounds like a crazy day in the ring

[@LauraTeAhoWhite]

I love the fact you bought out the whiteboard, this is great

[@cyberspinosaur1145]

Jovan for God 2025

[@BryanBrooks]

Goal post moving and personal incredulity fallacies all over this caller

[@Krawnbundungle]

Such pathetically stupid and evil dishonesty that rules these people’s lives.

[@thehatertatertotautobot2526]

I fucking love the white board

[@davidflowers3731]

I would love more god debates

[@RookieEyes22]

"I don't think that's a good analogy." Why's that? Because it's too accurate.

[@TwoForFlinchin1]

It's crazy how the tri-Omni God that supports free will isn't even biblically justifiable.

[@dan_the_swag_man6937]

if god doesn't like evil why make satan. Is he stupid?

[@joeywander7740]

Thumbnail looking like a pay-per-view fight 😂

[@Eshu666]

He says nothing matters in this life so you can do anything you want as long as you belief before the end thus, completely contradicting the entire plan of believers doing things before the end.

[@IamValak-j9e]

isit me but do christians when their talk about their ' gawd ' sound just like children ?

[@grekoga214]

The mental gymnastics that he was doing will go down in history 🤣🤣🤣

[@BCFoolin]

Job was also afflicted with disease. I think it may have been leprosy.

[@turtlegirl13107]

Jovan: “Have you heard the story of Job?” Called: “ Yeah, I love that story!” Jovan: “ So you love that God knowingly tortured a virtuous and perfect man?” Caller: “That’s not what it was about!!!” …. Like bro lmao anyone who knows anything about that book knows EXACTLY what God did to that man

[@ArnionDeVoluptas]

I LOVE when they try saying it was all justified because Job got double the possessions 😂 it really shows how unspiritual and based in earthly pleasures they really are

[@turtlegirl13107]

@ this every day of the week. The downplay earthly possessions so much until it benefits them. Just like some other things they use🧐

[@ykkvn]

"BET" is Crazy! LMAOOO

[@rhettknott9989]

His interpretation of Christian theology is inconsistently biblical with his own sprinklings of headcanon. Not onky that, but it ignores the Calvinist interpretation of christian theology which depicts salvation as purely an act of YHVH; no man may come to the Father unless called by The Spirit. Some vessels are made for glorification while some are made for destruction. A biblically consisten interpretation of Christianity actually precludes free will.

[@personman2346]

maleself's ideas are kinda stupid

[@cjgt77]

10:22 - the caller's angry energy deflates a bit when he see's the potential direction of the debate. He knew he would be on the defensive from that point on.

[@prod.bykidd]

26:24 brooo thats not even what sheol is 😭😭😭

[@MoreThanAMia]

Omg, the platform and alligator metaphor is FABULOUS.

[@comyuse9103]

i would like to point out that, according to their holy book, we are fully empowered to acknowledge god as evil. thanks to the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we understand what it means to be evil and YHWH is evil according to all real moral standards.

[@neilk.3398]

True Cinema. True entertainment. True love Jovan. ❤

[@russellh9894]

28:23 "God wants true love" is so cringe.

[@SleepyMatt-zzz]

"When you read it, did you actually study it?", if being around JWs has taught me anything, is that the caller's question doesn't actually mean what the question implies. Usually what that question means is, "Did you take someone else's word on what it means?"

[@yoyohayli]

Dude goes by "maleself," apparently.

[@Boneworm852]

So as far as we know, Matthew was written in Greek, and in Greek Matthew 25:41 says "pyr aionian", which is "eternal fire".

[@jarped96]

He uses the Hebrew argument to defend but then I bet he uses the king James to demean homosexuals… fuckin classic…

[@Woodtiger123]

@jarped96 homosexuals demean themselves by deviating from God's purpose. I would also state this is true of anyone with any sexual perversion. Including sex outside of marriage. Any sexual perversion is demeaning to oneself and to God.

[@FERAL_MECHANICAL_NOMATIC]

​@@Woodtiger123lol no one asked for your cowardly excuses for being a hateful bigot 🤣🤣🤣

[@joelschama1735]

Did Satan not have free will to disobey God? Mic drop!!!!!!!

[@almightydiplodocus]

People who have never heard the Problem of Evil. Smh

[@CorntJob]

This video is cool and informative, and this is not just for the algorithm 👍

[@Srcsqwrn]

The marathon run at the end 😂😂