“The Bible Commands Genocide!” - Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle Respond

[@CosmicSkeptic]

Watch the full episode on KZbin now: kzbin.info/www/bejne/qGm1i5SofKhreJYsi=iSNr1-PJmhbeojKk

[@majin_koopah7960]

I love how they talk about how evil they were then you just try to curve the fact they were doing evil and say well they got keeled how is that fair. Had it been a council of men that decided to go to war instead over morality you wouldn’t be having this conversation and say they did it for the good of man. Your a more on

[@HaileluleAssefa]

what happen was happened in old testament that is not mistake of God , God was fighting for israelites You fool don't believe in old testament Believe in new testament Don't confuse us , first You were confused

[@FirstLast-zk5ow]

Curious. Why are you trying so hard to be like Lex? Is it because the establishment has, for whatever reason, given him a free pass? That he can say whatever and they leave him alone. Do you not have any of your own ideas?

[@MattCrawley_Music]

This is the most HD I've ever seen these guys. I'm so used to seeing them in zoom call videos

[@Alien1375]

Not really sure that is a positive...

[@rabblewolf4851]

God did create Godband HD.

[@ryanthenormal]

I'm used to seeing Cliffe in a vertical shot, crouching with his hands on his knees, like he's about to drop a number two.

[@paulbiner5437]

@@Alien1375 What do you mean? The 4k ultra HD close ups of his methhead ear wounds really pull together the whole "evangelical pastor" look hes going for. Its like bright colors in poisonous animals, except with pastors and deranged religious beliefs lol.

[@letusdebatenow]

​​@@ryanthenormalhahahahahHahh I can see the thumbnail in my minds eye 👀😂😂😂

[@EmersedTuba38]

More conversations like this! I'm tired of watching people "dunk" on others. A calm, balanced discussion in good faith is a breath of fresh air

[@BlackOxymoron]

maybe fix your feed and who you subbed to.

[@Fabtsp]

@@BlackOxymoron Almost impossible nowadays Idk

[@Mwgnophonk]

@@EmersedTuba38 if only all discussion could be like this. I am tired of pretentious debatebros

[@luisbarbosa8136]

@@Mwgnophonk anyone knows if this episode will be put on Alex youtube channel? thanks

[@jmhgaming7155]

To be fair, this indeed was a dunk.

[@Wade_Adakai]

Alex is really the best atheist in my view, he's doing his best to not make a "gotcha" statement; he's framing actual ethical questions in the most sincere way he can. I personally am a Christian and have been impressed with his interactions with Jesus' heavy hitters.

[@TheCdr19]

If these are heavy hitters, you’ve got a pretty weak army.

[@Wade_Adakai]

@ I love cheesy replies, keep it coming 😎

[@Wade_Adakai]

@@shatteredteethofgod lol thought I was having a bad day, I love this 🙌🏾

[@KingNStheMighty]

I am fascinated every time I see christians expressing enthusiam for alex. I think its great and admire your open-mindedness! However given the atheism he fervently advocates, how exactly does this work? Do you constantly sit there and think "ah, interesting argument but I disagree" or do you like roll with the ppunches, and not feel it necessarily debunking your wordview? Genuinly curious! All the best

[@tonywallens217]

@@KingNStheMighty there are great thinkers on both sides who make great points. To dismiss arguments from the theist side would be equally as dumb as dismissing the atheist side. Both should appreciate that proponents of both can be extremely intelligent while disagreeing with each other. Ed Feser is also amazing but atheists like Graham Oppy aren’t barred from respecting and liking him just because they draw different conclusions.

[@Zacharyimpellicceiri]

Deuteronomy 9:5 “It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the Lord your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.”

[@deecee796]

And so this brings into question, has every act committed by man to another been an act of punishment by God upon those people for their perceived sinfulness? How are we to understand what then is right or wrong if all acts of evil are permitted in the name of "righteousness"? And I even recall committing a sin for the greater good to be a moral no no in the Bible as well.

[@Dorkeydaze]

@@deecee796 What verse are you talking about that would be a sin for the greater good?

[@Deathl2ow]

​@@deecee796.... You are daft. If you had an ounce of reading comprehension and opened a Bible, you'd realize the context is Israel is the "chosen" people. Being chosen is not necessarily nothing but sunshine and rainbows for them. They were the ones to carry out and be the shining city on the hill which they failed at many times. So no, it's not a standard for every civilization

[@gabriellefrancis9437]

⁠@@deecee796No, acts of sin are only possible through God given free will and are against God and will be punished when the person reaches judgment, they are not punishments. This is different, and even if the Bible said that God can not sin and this was an act of God

[@HaruQF]

@@deecee796 The Bible is clear that we are not allowed to "sin" for the greater good. The Bible states that the ends do not justify the means. However, it is a self-defeating argument just by the definition of the word sin: Sin is to go against God (Who is All-Good). This is why we discuss whether or not God's actions are good or bad (morally speaking). It is a fair argument, and that is why Christians should always be open to discussing the actions of God. However, it is also important to understand that Christians are not all-knowing and, as the Bible states in Job, we will not know the answer to every question we have until after judgement day. Of course, that doesn't mean we shouldn't ask questions, but we should definitely not base our belief in God around whether or not we can understand every action He takes. Instead, if you are going to base your belief on God being moral (which is 100% fair), then you should ask yourself, "To my understanding: Is the vast majority of God's actions good?". If the answer is yes, then you can continuously try and figure out why God acted certain ways in other places, whilst following His commandments. This leads to you gaining a deeper understanding, whilst also being on the Righteous side of the argument. This is my narrative alone though, so it's fair to disagree (Personally: if a God exists they must be moral. However, I am human and am flawed. I cannot decide what is moral 100% of the time. However, I can decide what is moral majority of the time, such as murder being immoral. Therefore, if the Christian God is moral to everything I understand, He is worthy of being followed, because He is better than I am. The Book of Job makes it clear that it is alright to have questions, and it is alright to have your foundations shaken: but you have to have Faith that there is a moral reason for the actions God takes. ------------------ To answer the first part of your comment: "has every act committed by man to another been an act of punishment by God upon those people for their perceived sinfulness?" No. It is made clear that there is an adversary who is actively seeking to trip you up. This is revealed in Genesis 3, and we see him rear his head all over the Bible. The Book of Job takes place with Satan actively trying to make Job sin. He did everything he could to make Job sin: Killed his entire family, stole all of his animals, gave Job a mysterious illness, and he even had Job's wife tell Job to curse God and die. If Satan is allowed to do anything and everything to make us sin: then it is clear that not every act committed by man was an act of punishment by God. Instead, we have the argument of free will: We can choose to serve God or Satan. God wants us to uphold the moral good, and Satan wants us to hate God, and stray away from Him. Because of this, we are limited to the two options. So, if we choose to serve God, then we are choosing to avoid sin like the plague: where as if we choose to serve Satan, that doesn't mean you are bowing down to serve Satan: you could be doing whatever it takes to make you happy (which could result in you stealing a candy bar, or taking someone's bike, etc). I also want to correct the part you have about "perceived sinfulness", there is no such thing. Sin is when you go against God. Therefore, God doesn't have a perception of sin, as it would be impossible for an all-knowing God to not know what He supports and what He doesn't support. ------------------ "How are we to understand what then is right or wrong if all acts of evil are permitted in the name of "righteousness"?" All acts of evil are not permitted in the name of righteousness (Romans 3, yes the majority/entire chapter is about this topic). If you lie, but your lie leads someone to God, it is still a lie, and lying is a sin so you will be punished. The Bible is clear the presumptuous sinning is not easily forgiven (presumptuously sinning = sinning when you know it's a sin).

[@reitumetsematsaneng5820]

I've longed for this interaction between Cliffe and Alex

[@battlepans1927]

Same here, it was the first thing I asked for when I subscribed

[@Ignition579]

Omg why is alex hot here...

[@FarmerClarence]

I only started seeing clips of cliffe pop up in my ytshort feed a few months ago, and I have been wanting to see him talk to someone like Alex since I first saw him.

[@Baggerz182]

God be with you all amen

[@noonewilleat1]

@@Baggerz182your on the wrong channel brotha 💀

[@sunnymittal1906]

Alex, I just discovered you and your material and I love all of it. You're such a well-spoken, intelligent person which is unbelievably refreshing in these times we live. Thank you. Subscribed!

[@skam5533]

Watch his video on debunking free will!!

[@Legendary54ff]

I hit $113k today. Thank you for all the knowledge and nuggets you had thrown my way over the last months. Started last month 2024. Financial education is indeed required for more than 70% of the society in the country as very few are literate on the subject.

[@DawnMack-mx1bc]

I would really love to know how much work you did put in to get to this stage.

[@Legendary54ff]

It's essential for you to have a mentor to keep you accountable. Myself, I'm guided by Evelyn Vera. for years and highly recommend her I focus on him. To be honest, I almost didn't buy the idea of letting someone handle growing my finance, but so glad I did.

[@Pearlygirl---]

Wow! wow! please is there any way to reach her services?

[@BrendaBall-k]

Yes, I have her WhatsApp digits

[@BrendaBall-k]

Under this comment!! Combine the DIGITS!!!

[@mustafakamal8608]

Please do Islam next. As a Muslim, I want to see this kind of cold headed conversation between a Muslim and atheist

[@fritzbow6676]

"To confuse your enemy, you must first confuse yourself" ~ Sun Tzu

[@deadcynic3004]

?

[@fritzbow6676]

@deadcynic3004 Example number 1

[@NarutoNinja110]

@@fritzbow6676 LMAO good comment

[@Hugoakatrash]

Black Midi reference

[@thegoodlistenerslistenwell2646]

Thats easy

[@blueboi5140]

I think that the damage Alex has done to these guys and Craig by just letting them try to rationalize these horrific actions alone has been an invaluable contribution to the discussion.

[@threelittlelemons]

Horrific? I thought you were atheist

[@threelittlelemons]

Horrific? I thought you were an atheist

[@michaelrainbow4203]

YES. Exactly this. These people never seem to come to the understanding that they didn't actually arrive at their worldview. They planted a flag where their feet were and built a fortress around themselves. Their religion is a system of rationalizations for why their god appears to be a psychopath. No matter how polished the rationalizations are, they amount to a pile of excrement, and there's no escaping from the scent of it when it is allowed to be exhibited as it is in this video.

[@Dan16673]

yup.

[@nexus7monster]

Damage 😂

[@augustosochalm]

Alex, your rethoric is amazing, your biblical knowledge is fascinating and your habilities regarding the recognition of the interpretations of others on the biblical texts is just 🤌. You are such an inspiration! Much love❤

[@PeterKlausRothe]

Although he does get it wrong that it was the Israelites who ran first and to draw the army of Ai out of the city . . .

[@manicksgaming6949]

@@augustosochalm lets worship him he is the god now

[@manicksgaming6949]

@@augustosochalm watch alex vs frank turek dont be deceive by alex

[@johnchesterfield9726]

@@manicksgaming6949 Alex vs. Frank Turek? You mean that video from 7 years ago when Alex was just 17 years old? That’s what you have to judge by? You do realize a lot of things change since people were 17, right?🤣

[@c0ax]

@@manicksgaming6949Jesus is lord

[@drumwaves1]

Great job as always Alex. I wish i had your composure when im in these conversations. Maybe one day i can be as smooth as you. Keep fighting the good fight!!!

[@galaxyneo1287]

When you say good fight if i may enquire what are you refering to?

[@gabriellefrancis9437]

I second the other comment this does not accomplish anything

[@drumwaves1]

@@galaxyneo1287 the quest for truth, integrity, and love.

[@chunkypants9773]

@@galaxyneo1287 Ha ha!

[@LuvNikNac]

Doesn’t take much to act like an adult engaging in difficult conversations friend.

[@IamExtruh]

Have to say. As a devout Christian. This gives me something to think on. Excited to see the full conversation! Love the respectable discourse.

[@Nutterbutter123]

It does, and reading the OT we have to read it that Christ is the necessity to come. All in the OT, I read it as Christ being prepared, even through the failures and atrocities throughout the OT. All are wrapped in fallen flesh that bare witness against us.

[@supremo7217]

​@@Nutterbutter123have you seen billiy carson? he answeres those questions regarding the old testamen God more like gods who are called Annunaki (people who came from above) on other olders scriptures than the Bible like the Epic of Gilgamesh and the Summerian Tablets.

[@IamExtruh]

@ I would agree

[@philswiftreligioussect9619]

Atheist or not, remember that we still love you. I may have lost my faith, but you are still my brother.

[@IamExtruh]

@@philswiftreligioussect9619 I am still a devout Christian. God is too good. But it’s healthy to acknowledge when a good question or argument is posed.

[@SDSwampert]

I appreciate you for having these dialogues and asking the tough questions, Alex. God bless!

[@littlebitofhope1489]

Why don't you like Alex?

[@gonthedriver]

‘God bless’ is just on point. Jesus christ

[@SDSwampert]

@@littlebitofhope1489 I have zero clue on how you came to that assumption

[@littlebitofhope1489]

@@SDSwampert People who push their religion onto someone they know is an atheist do it because they have no respect for that person. They are simply pushing their beliefs.

[@anubis_atg]

@@gonthedriver 'Jesus christ' is just on point. Holy cow

[@Arczi0]

- What about this particularly evil thing done in those passages? - Let me start by talking about other passages where that particular evil doesn't happen or happens to a lesser degree

[@Dan16673]

well ya, cause then the god is moral sh9t goes out da window

[@Arczi0]

Well, basically. If one would somehow discover that God really is moral ideal who can do no wrong, then all apparent evil committed by them would be just that - apparent What's bothering - how was that supposedly discovered and confirmed? Persons who own armies and command them to commit genocide while claiming to be well-motivated saviors who want best for their people while they oppress them are somewhat of a historical banality. Those persons are called tyrants and are always labeled as evil for the reasons above. One does not seriously consult their propaganda writings to contradict those facts and those conclusions.

[@ShuggieEdvaldson]

Mere Secular Legalese...pffttt... try telling the truth for once, who knows, it might even set you free from your logical prison one day. Jesus is Lord!

[@alotsip]

@@ShuggieEdvaldson telling someone else they are in a logical prison is hilarious while you yourself believe a virgin can give birth, jesus rose from the dead and many other made up stories.

[@MikeTMike]

​@@ShuggieEdvaldson Why should I care?

[@MelissaGilmerSalamanca]

I really enjoy Alex and his ability to have these difficult, probing conversations in while maintaining the highest standard of respect. I pray for Alex’s conversion, and even if not, I pray for him to continue this great work he is doing here.

[@UnknowinglyUnknowable]

We condemned the Canaanites for killing children. But that’s exactly God ordered the Israelites to do. It does seem to work in conflict.

[@chupapi-o5u]

And god indeed favoured the israelites over any other civilizations. He only spoke to them, only guided them, only helped them.

[@alanheyes694]

Whichever is most morally convenient. It’s almost as though there is no divine creator and these religious scriptures are just the work of human beings claiming divinity.

[@TheDragonageorigins]

In that time, sure. But we see now the message that Jesus brought which includes everyone​@@chupapi-o5u

[@chupapi-o5u]

@@alanheyes694 yea especially considering the fact the israelites derive from the canaanites and made their own version of the "original" (canaanites) religion. Few hundred years later some israelite writes the exodus a mythological story about where they came from. But that never happened

[@meej33]

Also, it should be noted that all that about child sacrifice comes from Hebrew sources, ie their enemies. And we already have archaelogical evidence that indicates that Hebrew sources in the Bible are less than reliable, much like other ancient sources when telling stories about their enemies. Later on, Romand wrote that Christians sacrificed children, and even later on Christians wrote that Jews sacrificed children. Quite frankly, it seems that any unsacrificed child must have felt left out.

[@mr.c2485]

Their answer to literally any moral dilemma as prescribed by their god is always the same. “God knows what he’s doing” and “who are we to question a gods decisions”. Isn’t that convenient?…..

[@chupapi-o5u]

And then they bring up jesus

[@ericvela4087]

That’s why it’s called faith

[@yoyoyoyo-qv5hu]

So before the beginning of the Universe, and you literally had nothing to go on for inspiration, what would you have done?

[@Kevin-xk3me]

Give a better solution then since ours is so bad

[@marendse6561]

That's the whole point though. We're not God. If God being the uncreated creator, the unmoved mover, decided to create a universe with living creatures then what's wrong with Him decided to influence that world in whatever way he chooses. What I would like to know why atheists seem to think they can judge God's actions but not other people. If God commands a pagan people who participated in child sacrifices to be killed as judgement to be immoral then why don't atheists judge individuals who practice abortion today? And when atheists judge God, the creator of the universe for His actions I'd like to ask by what standard are you guys making this judgement? If morality is subjective then what religious people believe about God is perfectly fine because it's all subjective in end, right? ROMANS 9:14-23 "14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[a] 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[b] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[c] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory-"

[@landonnelson1864]

Really great conversation. Thanks Alex

[@Redh4x_real]

He posted it 2 mins ago ...

[@ajessop6870]

@@Redh4x_real😂😂😂

[@Akuankka000]

yeah you’ve barely watched a couple of minutes of it buddy

[@ronpudding9598]

@@Redh4x_real The whole conversation was posted a day ago on Alex's Substack for subscribers. They may be a subscriber.

[@j8000]

Bro watching at 10x speed

[@dakotataylor4696]

“Then Abraham drew near and said, “Will you indeed sweep away the righteous with the wicked? Suppose there are fifty righteous within the city. Will you then sweep away the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous who are in it? Far be it from you to do such a thing, to put the righteous to death with the wicked, so that the righteous fare as the wicked! Far be that from you! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do what is just?” And the Lord said, “If I find at Sodom fifty righteous in the city, I will spare the whole place for their sake.” Abraham answered and said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord, I who am but dust and ashes. Suppose five of the fifty righteous are lacking. Will you destroy the whole city for lack of five?” And he said, “I will not destroy it if I find forty-five there.” Again he spoke to him and said, “Suppose forty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of forty I will not do it.” Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak. Suppose thirty are found there.” He answered, “I will not do it, if I find thirty there.” He said, “Behold, I have undertaken to speak to the Lord. Suppose twenty are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of twenty I will not destroy it.” Then he said, “Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak again but this once. Suppose ten are found there.” He answered, “For the sake of ten I will not destroy it.” And the Lord went his way, when he had finished speaking to Abraham, and Abraham returned to his place.” ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭18‬:‭23‬-‭33‬ ‭ESV‬‬ bible.com/bible/59/gen.18.23-33.ESV

[@zacharyevans8152]

THANK YOU! Exactly the example I used in my comment as well. The Holy Spirit is working within us. I heard Him tell me "remember Sodom?" when I was listening to Alex's remarks and I very rarely study OT scripture - these points Alex and others bring up make me struggle sometimes. Struggle creates strength! Praise Christ!

[@notanonymous3976]

that city must've had no babies

[@zacharyevans8152]

@@notanonymous3976 Or he spared them. aren't you prochoice? What do you care?

[@notanonymous3976]

@@zacharyevans8152 what does choice have to do with babies not being in a city?

[@criert135]

Sounds good. Except then he didn’t spare them, not even the children…. :/

[@MrNicknayme]

Great conversation. And also, great production! From location and it’s sound signature, to video quality and lighting. I hope the rest of the conversation will eventually come to KZbin for all us freeloaders. ;-)

[@clearcutmedia_]

Thank you :) We had a great time working on this with Alex and the Knechtles!

[@noahblack5620]

Wow this is a stellar conversation and i cant wait for the full release. These are the type of even tempered congenial conversation people should be having not only about religion but politics as well. Its these types of conversations that can help strengthen your faith as a believer even Thomas doubted and i believe its healthy to have these kind of questions. As a Christian myself i find these conversations helpful in my walk with God because its forces me to grapple with the unknown and by proxy strengthen my prayer life. Alex did a phenomenal job of not trying to "win" the conversation but instead i feel like hes going about it with genuine intrigue which is healthy. If this same attitude was applied in our national politics we would be in alot better shape as a country. We need more of this kind of dialogue for the country and the world at Large. Thank You Alex for hosting a wonderful podcast and being part of the solution and not part of the problem. Thank you as well Cliffe And Stuart for continuing to shine a bright light on the Christian faith and bringing people closer to Jesus. All of you guys are great and i cant wait to indulge in more of this kind of content.

[@motionpotionsauce]

I left an in-depth response somewhere in the comments. IMO I found these passages disturbing as well, so as a Christian I spent hours reasarching this topic. Not to brag, but I think I gave a better answer than Cliffe and Stuart

[@4Neighbors1Camera]

@@motionpotionsaucecan you repost it here?

[@motionpotionsauce]

@@4Neighbors1Camera The issue with this entire debate on Violence in the Old Testament is that its completely based on our 21st century view of morality, religion and modern technology. It did not consider the life and culture back then, and TBH I don't think anyone in this room on either side did enough research on the topic. 1.Most importantly, Combat in that time period and region was not viewed as People vs People, but Gods vs Gods. The Israel God vs the Canaanite God. This fighting was not viewed as killing people groups, but vanquishing a Wicked God (who was viewed as 100% real). One who ordered their people to sacrifice Children to, cannibalize each other, had ritualistic orgies, stacked piles of their enemies skulls multiple feet high, and other nasty things. 2. Biblical scholar Fr Stephen De Young studied near-eastern history, and came to the conclusion that describing a complete wiping out of people was a very very common brag many countries would have. lots of other similar countries spoke the same way. Also in future chapters of the Bible, it forbids the Israelites to intermarry these same people groups they supposedly killed everyone. Well, I thought they were 100% killed? Clearly Not. 3. God doesn't declare any future offensive combat against other people groups in the rest of the Bible. and declares against offensive combat, taking women s*x slaves, and taking spoils of war. These were all concepts that were unheard of at the time, and although today might seem barbaric compared to our modern sensibilities, they were radical at the time. 4. If you are wondering why the Israelites NEEDED to go to the promise land where others already lived, I am convinced they needed to put their home there, so thousands of years later they would be right next to the Roman Empire (the largest empire at the time) when Jesus was born, allowing his message to travel quickly through the entire known world at the time. 5. The modern person can hardly comprehend how violent and vicious the ancient world was. In those ancient times, invading and killing every person, or taking all the women as concubines, and all the children as slaves was a common occurrence. There were no means or resources to take prisoners for life, and exiling someone to the vast wilderness was essentially a death sentence. If someone's parents were killed back then, what were the options: Keep the kid alive, and hope he doesn't revenge kill others, Kill him or exile him to his death. Or keep him as a slave. Also this cleansing of the area was to make sure none of their depraved culture seeped into the Israelite culture, which did end up happening eventually, proving God right,. their evil ways seeped into Israel life eventually, 6. Saying the canaanites and others weren't given specific instructions to stop their wicked actions is a ridiculous idea. As if they had no idea sacrificing children by burning them alive was not a good thing. It's not like they were being slightly unpleasant, they were monstrous violent people who needed to be removed from the developing world, same way you would remove a cancerous tumor to save the body. Atheists always like to talk about they don't need God to have morals. 7. God chose the Israelites and no other group, because they were supposed to be a shining example to others. God never intended to need to babysit our world and do everything for us. His goal was to lead one people group, that would be a shining light to others, and eventually let them on their own. clearly it did not happen. And when they failed, he sent Jesus as a savior to the entire planet, not just 1 people group. 8. The nature of God never changes, but the Nature of humans did. Jesus spoke of Forgiveness and humility, but if he came 2000 years earlier, he prob would've been ignored and killed. the Bible as a whole is a summary of Gods plan to win back humanity from their violent and awful ways, back to how they were always intended to be. Changing an entire planet takes time, and the full instructions were slowly spoon fed over time, People still had their free will, but were guided slowly towards a better life with Christ. Look at us now, just 5-6000 years since the Book of Joshua. We find these acts deplorable, because of how much we have morally improved in a (cosmically speaking) short time frame. 9. I know Atheists hate this response, so I saved for last. But as creator of Humans, God has the final say of their Life. If I loan someone 100$, then want it back, it's my Money in the first place to do with as I please. Humans killing each other is not the same as God giving judgement on wicked people. Also anyone who was a victim I am sure was given a special place in the afterlife, and eternity that would last infinitely longer than their time here,

[@jonnystrat]

Please help me understand how you Christians come into these comment sections saying the atheist made you “think”, but your opinions never actually change. That’s the problem with religion to begin with, you come into these conversations to seek confirmation bias to become a better Christian, not to actually evaluate the morality of Gods actions. Because at the end of the day we can talk about God literally commanding entire civilizations to be slaughtered, but you won’t see a problem with it or will have some twisted Frankensteined reasoning these Christian figures feed you as to why it was okay.

[@JohnPaul-ol5zl]

​@@jonnystrat Well said Mr. Perfect, well said.

[@teeranger660]

"They were given over 400 years to repent" "Oh yeah, what kind of instructions were they given?" "I don't know, but they were bad, and the Chinese don't have an issue with genocide" What a great point...

[@Bunlover117]

He’s just changing the subject to deter our attention so we get side tracked and forget the question we asked and start talking about something new. Classic liberal tactic

[@Green-ishEcho]

He just invalidated his own argument in 2 seconds.

[@deniswallace-vp9tb]

Apparently god gave us free will but those who choose their own path as given by god will be slaughtered, he didn't seem to put this as one of his rules makes free will nonsense

[@xXSlyfoxMinionXx]

What got me was when he said it "seems like we're all reading from the same sheet music" about morals, the very next thing he said was about how the Chinese have completely different morals than Westerners.

[@DarriousThomp]

Claiming to know everything is also a great point…..

[@Hebrews109]

Great video. Alex, is awesome to have those of his opposing side on his show. Love it! I think he is becoming a great example of how this should be done. The people at Unbelievable? have been doing this for some time, and I am glad to see somebody on the atheist side do this. This is most excellent. In this conversation: I would like to add 2 passages from the Scriptures that when pondered may bring some more context and understanding though this subject is a difficult one. Joshua 2:8-14, Joshua 6:25 and 2 Kings 17:7-18. Also, consider the animals in Noah's day according to the Biblical narrative in Genesis 6:12, 9:1-7 and then also consider Leviicus 20:15,16,23 and how this may corrupt and spread God only knows what amongst the beasts and between man, child and woman. Also, God destroyed all flesh in the flood even infants and young one's and as the Christian apologist along with even the likes of John MacArthur (who would be a great guest to have on your show to get a reformed perspective on all these very same subjects!!!) Believe that those before age of accountability are with Jesus in Paradise and I believe anyone who were drowning in the flood turned to God they are in heaven too and anybody these that were being judged like Rahab whether it was on there last breath or not like the theif on the cross are with Jesus now! I think we may be surprised when the faithful enter into glory and all the questions and doubts will be fully done away with. Now maybe I made a silly argument and maybe I did not or maybe some of what I said is legit and some not but for me I had that experience that Alex said may convince him of Jesus in an Unbelievable? podcast as of late. And I pray for the same for Him. When you are actually walking with Jesus in faith, you just know that even with the difficult passages that you can trust that Jesus is doing the right thing! I interpret the Old Testament Scriptures in light of and not at the expense of Jesus and so I just know that God is just and whatever He commands is so! And so I guess you can say that I have been biased by Jesus as revealed in the gospels and further Scripture like the writings of Paul etc etc etc. "Nisi crederitis, non intelligetis" - Augustine facebook.com/share/p/1FJVgNcAEg/

[@horiwake]

It’s almost as if these passages are a post hoc justification for the war crimes of the Israelites.

[@harveywabbit9541]

The evil one, who is to be "destroyed" is the winter season of hunger, cold, sickness, darkness, and death. Typically this is the five months as described in Revelation 9. The evil leader of these baddies is the scorpion constellation (Rev 9.5). Canaan, the fourth son of Ham, is Scorpio. The "nation" of Israel is a collective of four signs as in Isaiah 9. The leader is the noble/royal lion (Leo) and the lying tail is the scorpion (Scorpio). Between the head and tail we find the palm frond/branch aka Virgo and the reed aka Libra.

[@HughJaxident67]

@@harveywabbit9541 A myth then

[@8044868]

That's been my view for years: Divine sanction for what they were already doing.

[@littlebitofhope1489]

Or boasting and chest pounding when they lost, and turning it into a win. There is no way to know which, since that area has been full of conflict by all parties for thousands of years.

[@nathanaelsmith3553]

Relax - it couldn't happen today

[@YoungMatt81]

So they want the bible to be wholly figurative and wholly literal at the same time. Got it.

[@TaeyxBlack]

it’s literal where it’s rhetorically useful for it to be literal and figurative where it’s rhetorically useful for it be to figurative. what’s not to get?

[@masked_12]

Who ever said that the entirety of the Bible should be taken in any of the two ways mentioned?

[@JohnDoe-xs5gv]

If Christians are correct in that Jesus is God, then God is wholly good. This means the OT must be reinterpreted.

[@dotenks]

@@TaeyxBlackJust because a certain interpretation is more useful than another doesn’t subtract from the immorality of the literal text. Using your logic we can justify just about anything, although I suspect that’s why you’re using it. It’s a good way to avoid confrontation.

[@cortical1]

​@@masked_12 You missed the point. If someone is choosing each of the instances where they think it's literal or figurative then none of it can be taken seriously. 👌🏻

[@brotherben4357]

In short, “It’s complex. I don’t understand it all. God didn’t mean exactly what he said.”

[@fentonmulley5895]

Cliffe acts like there aren't Bible scholars writing papers on every nuance of these issues. He could easily talk to them with his platform also. He's just a lazy grifter.

[@jeremycamacho8864]

To be fair, I don't think Cliffe does the best job at explaining God's judgment here, but his argument was not "God didn't mean that," it was that God's judgment is impossibly righteous and absolute, no matter the circumstance. A just explanation given the incomprehensible being we're talking about.

[@muddywitch9016]

Yo have to turn this biblical texts upside down and inside out to get anything positive out of them. Why not read them as they are written? Which I do! Which makes hod a monster, imo.

[@agitatedaligator5340]

⁠@@jeremycamacho8864is this the sort of idea William lane Craig follows ? That because god says X, it must be just ?

[@doug2555]

@@agitatedaligator5340 pretty much lmao

[@olifisher4182]

The moustache is really difficult to come to terms with

[@Emma-cy9lp]

😂😂

[@hooligan9794]

It is the worst hate crime featuring or discussed in this conversation.

[@oscargr_]

Gives off Freddy Mercury vibes.

[@davidjones8965]

Slug balancer!

[@themotofirm]

It grows on you after a while

[@cybermandan1960]

Alex: "Why did God command genocide?" Knetchle: "Oh he was just exaggerating. It was a joke bro."

[@brotherben4357]

“I don’t understand fully. God is mysterious. God didn’t mean that. Back in the day people were less individual. Children are burdened by the decisions of their parents.”

[@weedlol]

"It's just a prank bro! There's a camera in the bush there! Wait it caught fire wtf?"

[@iggyg1370]

If you were able to create robots that can think on their own, and set laws for them, would you feel you have the right to destroy them, if they refuse to obey?

[@weedlol]

@@iggyg1370 Wtf no, we'd have no more of a right to do that than we do destroying each other. It's concerning to even imply that's an amoral act. Also, do you concede Trump lost the 2020 election had there been no legal interference?

[@killrsloth9187]

​@@iggyg1370 if you have a kid do you get to murder and have them be raped if they disobey you?

[@BlueLightningSky]

One thing I always hate apologists do is justify their atrocities by saying someone else would have done worse.

[@MarkPatmos]

And atheists seem to judge from an assumed position of moral superiority and belief in their capacity to be 'truly' objective

[@KasperKatje]

​@@MarkPatmosnope, just from our moral standard of today. I could easily say "hey, just the laws and morals of the Israelites back then". The problem starts when you insert an "all good, just, unchanging" god as lawgiver of absolute and objective morality.

[@domcruise274]

so you want humans to have free will, but when evil is allowed you get upset, and then when evil is judged you get upset too??

[@Dorkeydaze]

Atheist really have no moral ground to stand on though. The point of Israel as a nation was to be the light of God shinning though the institution of a earthly kingdom. Since Israel’s will one day be the throne room of Jesus Christ and all nations will be subject to it what reason does God NOT have the right to establish his kingdom? Say God for whatever reason let the nations of man do as they please say the nation of Canaanite’s took over globally through military expansion like Persia or Rome did and they had a religious prophet like Jesus and child sacrifice was done in the millions of billions today…. People would surely say a worse act had be done because Gods neutrality in the situation. God shall kingdoms that displeased him and would displeased many billions of us and he acted. Atheist now sit here and argue why God would do such a thing.

[@Dorkeydaze]

KZbin censorship is so annoying. Literally wrote a reply just got it to be deleted. Essentially my was if the nation of Canaan took over globally like Rome or Persia did everyone would be upset God didn’t step in and do something, but when God FOES do something atheist still get upset about it.

[@Czomogit]

I am so gratefull to be able to watch this kind of thoughts exchange and comment on it freally. Thats fire

[@ibah6]

The mental gymnastic is on another level here.

[@perthyren601]

agree, and I'm disgusted

[@masked_12]

The mental gymnastics needed to accept we all came from nothing are, to me, on an even higher level. But whatever makes you happy, I guess...

[@matsciguy-l9h]

Not to mention how an omniscient god can regret unforeseen outcomes.

[@WE_R_DNA]

​@@masked_12 yup, Christians believe their god came from nothing. That's just bonkers! 😂

[@jeremycamacho8864]

​@@matsciguy-l9h, somewhat agree, God is a huge gap filler, but that's the point. He's inconceivable, time isn't going to matter.

[@timadamson3378]

Perhaps the love of God is ... Hyperbole.

[@mishka_bo_bishka]

lol exactly 😂

[@Jk-ow8ny]

Our God is love by nature

[@al-kimiya6962]

@@Jk-ow8ny we can see how he showered love on innocent children of canaanites.

[@Shimiphew]

​@@Jk-ow8nya beautiful hyperbole?👀

[@milosayshi]

⁠@@Jk-ow8nynature is hyperbole ?

[@rodoxag9117]

11:35 "You have to kill off everything that's gonna cause temptation, because you're God's chosen people". And he finds that perfectly reasonable.

[@zariamorrison14]

My thing is why would God not just destroy the devil then isn’t the devil the one causing this evil and temptation. Am I suppose to believe the Canaanites are these master minds that’s greater than the devil

[@domcruise274]

@@zariamorrison14its God stepping back and giving us humans free will not necessarily the devil

[@domcruise274]

You want humans to have free will, but get upset when evil is allowed, but also get upset when evil judged?

[@Dorkeydaze]

@@rodoxag9117 Well hey God can give the dead eternal heavenly paradise…… can you? Plus there’s a lot of context before you even get to that point. These nations did all kinds of things that would make satan blush. Say the nation of Cannane took over like role or Persia and their cultural practice took out globally…. In a situation like that was God not right to try to prevent those behaviors? And God shoes mercy if they repent look at ninivah.

[@rodoxag9117]

@@Dorkeydaze god can also, supposedly, give eternal and unimaginable suffering, your points being?. Yes, yes, I already know the "context" (the golden excuse), but read the bible again and you will also find that god commanded many things that would also make Satan blush. And one thing is for god do something to prevent those things, and another completely different thing is sending humans to do their biddings, including blood baths, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Are you telling me that god, in his infinite wisdom, couldn't find more peaceful and better alternatives to turn those people around, other than brutally murdering them? This god sure seems very limited

[@chinkasuyaro8983]

Next time someone says "But you're looking at it from a 21st century moral lens.", I should respond: 'Exactly. If I went out tomorrow with a 1st century moral lens I'd be arrested immediately.'.

[@BruceBanner-u8z]

The lens you used was created by Christians. Your atheist world view could completely justify this

[@KasperKatje]

​@@BruceBanner-u8zPlease explain. Which lens exactly? That of the rampant Christian antisemitism with ghettos and pogroms, the Inquisition, witch hunts, slavery, the reason we have freedom of religion: Catholics and Protestants k1lling eachother?

[@followerofchrist-z1x]

exactly why would look at life now with a first centry lens now. that like a typical liberal man going back to the first centry acting and responding in life the way they do. that a consequence waiting to happen and vise versa

[@BB-st2zz]

You wouldn't be. And if you were, it would prove his point.

[@jakubholic8769]

​@@BB-st2zzhow?

[@CarpenterBrother]

Every time I watch these people justifying atrocities, I am more assured that leaving religion was the best thing I've done as a human being.

[@harveywabbit9541]

The evil one, who is to be "destroyed" is the winter season of hunger, cold, sickness, darkness, and death. Typically this is the five months as described in Revelation 9. The evil leader of these baddies is the scorpion constellation (Rev 9.5). Canaan, the fourth son of Ham, is Scorpio. The "nation" of Israel is a collective of four signs as in Isaiah 9. The leader is the noble/royal lion (Leo) and the lying tail is the scorpion (Scorpio). Between the head and tail we find the palm frond/branch aka Virgo and the reed aka Libra.

[@CarpenterBrother]

@harveywabbit9541 schizo lvl 900000

[@kaidne]

Atrocities based on what? How does good and evil even exist without a God? They are religious terms

[@chasevonlanken8444]

how do u define atrocities then? lol now ur just stuck in a subjective wasteland

[@c0ax]

You were never religious glad you left

[@VikingrGaming-x4l]

bro, we needed this interaction. Cliffe and Alex going head to head. I quite liked the calm atmosphere of this discussion, as well the logic brought by alex in dismantling cliffes responses and explanations. To me Stuart seemed to yap up nonsense in response to alex, so I'm curious to see the full video to see if he has anything of substance to say. EDIT: Otherwise, love your videos alex!

[@McCarthy1776]

He dismantles their arguments in such a polite and non-aggressive way. He's brilliant

[@c0ax]

@@McCarthy1776where’s the dismantling? Can’t find it

[@jebkermen6087]

@@c0ax where is your god? can't find him.

[@nimrodszocs2795]

@@c0ax kzbin.info/www/bejne/eGrFl6Roj9-HfZY

[@aidanabregov1412]

Genocide is declaring a whole group is guilty of existing.

[@MohammedKhan-y3i]

What Israel is doing to the Gazans

[@chrisallclips]

​@@MohammedKhan-y3i No.

[@wingamwila4113]

It is what it is.

[@DefenestrateYourself]

@@wingamwila4113 is it though

[@nimrodszocs2795]

@@DefenestrateYourself what else can it be other than not "it" 😂

[@1991trailmix]

I appreciate this conversation. I don't think we as modern humans can fully appreciate what life was like back then.

[@CK-lq5gm]

Cliffe wearing "fashionable" jeans...didn't see that coming...

[@CrustaceousB]

Did the Pope finally approve acid wash jeans?😂

[@MrMattSax]

Pretty typical when going for the “hip pastor” vibe.

[@c0ax]

@@CrustaceousByou’re a joke just letting you know

[@mennjon]

I dislike the arguments that claim since the bible was a long time ago, immoral acts are actually okay for the time period, but at the same time we all need to learn how to be moral from these exact same stories. I fail to see how that is not just nitpicking what you like and ignoring/justifying what you dislike about them.

[@TaeyxBlack]

you fail to see it because that’s all there is to see: cherry-picking.

[@Waxican]

You treat it as protomorality. Obviously there is a lot of immoral things compared to today but you can also see the vestiges of where our current morality comes from. It’s the same way we can still gleam moral lessons from Greek and Roman myth even if a lot of it is also distasteful to our modern perceptions.

[@jsmall10671]

@@Waxican Of course we can glean good lessons from it. The problem is when people can't admit there were mistakes. Things that absolutely cannot be reconciled with an omnipotent, all-loving being.

[@bike4aday]

Well that depends how you learn from stories. Do you just arbitrarily mimic what the characters do? Or do you integrate the stories with spiritual practices that develop awareness and sensitivity to suffering and conscience?

[@c0ax]

Your comment sucks, no one says since it’s a long time ago it’s okay, you just don’t have a moral basis to say it’s wrong

[@OrganicPerception]

Interesting to see the Knechtles in this context. You've genuinely built up a cache of good will that has elevated the quality of the dialogues on display. Others should take note.

[@lukedegraaf1186]

He had more patience than I ever will.

[@charliekowittmusic]

18:53 This is the kind of thing I really can’t understand. “You’re reading judeo-Christian texts from a judeo-Christian point of view, that’s why you’re morally outraged.” Uh, no. From the text’s POV this is completely justified. From our POV it’s immoral. Clearly, our 21st century morality does NOT come from the referenced text.

[@domcruise274]

@@charliekowittmusic you want humans to have free will, but you get upset when evil is allowed, then you get upset when evil is judged. Then you say the way and timing that God moves people into the next life is incorrect

[@charliekowittmusic]

@ I don’t believe in free will. Why are you assuming 10 different things about me lol? Stick to the subject matter. I believe exactly what I said. If God commands immoral acts, then God is immoral. Or, indiscriminate killing and ethnic cleansing is moral, and we’re the ones who have morality backwards. One of these must logically be the case. So, tell me. Which is it?

[@domcruise274]

@@charliekowittmusic if you don’t believe in free will then how is this immoral from your POV? The Athiest worldview is that genocide/murder are not wrong in any absolute sense. The Biblical worldview is that murder/genocide are always absolutely evil and God moving people to the next life is never murder/genocide.

[@dbossmotiv]

@@domcruise274because it makes absolutely no sense you just can’t admit it to yourself because you desperately want to believe 😂 According to you.. this god former and created us and influenced the way we are. This god also knows EVERYTHING we will ever do. And then when we do what he knew we were going to do. He gets angry and kills us, and then damns us to hell for all eternity? 😂

[@domcruise274]

@@dbossmotiv and you believe nothing created everything…

[@studioROT]

It is chilling to see these two men revealing their immorality with a smile on their face.

[@aureum7479]

What defines immorality

[@LazySock]

​@@aureum7479actions which cause pain to others

[@dotenks]

@@aureum7479Cliff and Knechtle define immorality using the Bible. So we can judge them and their God by their own standards. If the Bible says it’s wrong not to kill, and then they gloss over genocide, then by their own standards they’re hypocrites (meaning they’re immoral). EDIT: Cliff and Stuart* lol

[@AsixA6]

@@aureum7479 An action that makes a person feel that action ought not be done, that’s what.

[@manicksgaming6949]

And ur better than them?

[@sagar65265]

That very first question that Alex asked in counter, about whether these "cursed people" had the same opportunities to learn and repent as the Israelites did - that's a key point. God's mercy is unequivocally not uniform. For all that Cliffe said "actions have long-lasting consequences", God sure didn't seem to care about the long-lasting consequences of his disinterest in the salvation of the Canaanites.

[@blakevinccent4928]

What’s the difference is the canaanites would not listen to god and the Israelites did. The Israelites were flawed and soon punished later on.

[@resinsminia]

​@@blakevinccent4928 ​​How do you know the Canaanites wouldn't listen to God? When God sent Jonah to Nineveh it was because they were wicked. When the people of Nineveh heard what God was gonna do they believed what Jonah said and proclaimed a fast. God then spared them. How do you know the Canaanite people wouldn't do the same if God sent a prophet instead of an army? ​

[@blakevinccent4928]

@@resinsminia simple, god knows everything he knows who will be saved and who will not. God knowing everything and the hearts of them knows they could not be saved. If god didn’t know everything he would have asked them, but he knew their hearts as he knows everything it’s stated in the Bible god is all knowing. He knows who can and cannot be saved.

[@autisticphaglosophy7128]

@@resinsminia The Israelites were Canaanites there's no way they weren't aware prior.

[@rayzecor]

@@resinsminia Everyone in Jericho knew about the God of Israel and knew about their feats in battle. Especially considering how god-minded (if that makes sense) these people were, sacrificing their own children for the favors of their gods, they 100% would have attributed the victories of Israel to the strength of their God, which they did. But only Rahab actually feared God, her family in turn having faith in her and choosing to fear God saved all of them. The people of Jericho knew.

[@4dojo]

The Old Testament god is loving and kind. As long as you ignore all of the times that he is violent and merciless.

[@TaeyxBlack]

count the hits, ignore the misses. indoctrination 101

[@nathanaelsmith3553]

The gnostics kind of had a point

[@HoniTheCircleMaker13]

What god of the old testament are we even talking about? The Most High, El, one of the many Elohim, or El's son Yah???

[@BringJoyNow]

@HoniTheCircleMaker13 someone has not even done one bible lesson and went straight to KZbin comments

[@TheArbiterOfTruth]

Actually, considering the people He dealt with, he’s incredibly merciful. I’d urge you to go read the Old Testament, and read it in context of global history.

[@tenorhighc1]

VERY tough questions - brilliantly done! But they surprising wiggled their way through them. I love the slight worried expressions on their faces quite often as they searched their brains for explanations LOL. Really friendly discussion! Great job

[@dabiguy77]

I've been waiting for someone to challenge cliff that is not some young student. First time I've seen him under this much pressure and he had no real answer. It's brilliant.

[@patriot-g3e]

No real answer Sure 😂

[@thebeatingcow595]

No real answer…to you. The funny thing about these videos is both sides come into them with their own opinion, and leave with their own opinion stronger, thinking that the other side is crazier.

[@dabiguy77]

He literally said....i don't know! And yeah its a struggle to accept. That's not a real answer. And the hyperbole argument was magnificently put down by alex. He was in total control of this discussion.

[@nimrodszocs2795]

@@patriot-g3e yeah, i'm pretty sure buddy 😂😂😂😂 much need for that laughing emoji 😂😂😂😂 at 19:07 these dimwits said "well, you know, at least they didn't rape 'em" 😂😂😂😂 mad funny i know. sad people

[@nimrodszocs2795]

@@thebeatingcow595 well, at least one side is right

[@Olyfrun]

First answer: "no, and here's why it's really a yes that I'm not willing to concede"

[@piano9433]

As someone who is not sure if moral realism is true, my biggest problem with these passages is not the morality per se, but the unimaginative way in which the deity allegedly solves "the problem". Isn't interesting that God didn't think of anything better than what an israelite scribe from the Ancient Neart East would probably conceive his deity doing?

[@AllNamesAreTaken21]

How did you put in a search link??

[@SnakeLee1]

What if the deity told him this is what's happening

[@goldiffworks]

​@@SnakeLee1What if the sun exploded?

[@Radi0actvChickn]

Honestly such a good point, and I bring this up in other moral arguments. If I can come up with a more humane way to deal with these problems, then surely an all-knowing god could come up with that too. And being all-powerful, there's no "well, he HAD to do it this way to maximize good later on down the line" argument, because if that's true, then he's not all-powerful.

[@semi4]

@Radi0actvChickn He won't be all powerful if he could not show that death can be defeated either by bringing back life. God as the author of life can take it when he wants. There has never been a refutation to that idea. Only an appeal to emotion.

[@rubengely2003]

Generally speaking, I believe that in order to determine whether X is good or evil, we would need information on X. For example, let’s say that we are passing by a street, and we see a guy giving a beating to a cripple. We would feel morally compelled to defend the cripple wouldn’t we? Let’s say that we do, but then we find out that years prior, the cripple had killed the attacker’s mother in cold blood. Suddenly we would feel much less pity for the cripple wouldn’t we? Perhaps some would say that the cripple is getting what he deserved for what he did. My point is that information changes perspective on wether X is good or evil, and we are finite creatures. We do not have access to all information, so we must be open to the possibility of being wrong in any case we judge. When we study ancient literature, this is particularly important, because we are so removed from so many things that could impact our judgement of the issue. We only have what is written, and what is written is never the whole story. It is what we have. Let’s say that I am a fan of war. I love reading about it, and have read hundreds of books on many wars. I have read about how gruesome it is, the horror it entails. The suffering. After reading all those books, would I be more knowledgeable than a veteran who actually lived through a battle and survived to tell his story? Does my reading a thing give me the full experience of someone who lived through it? No. It does not. What knowledge do I have of good and Evil? Only what my experience and conscience gives me. But I am very limited in any measure. Who am I to judge God? Was I there when the universe was created? If I in my very limited knowledge can love some ancient people enough to have pity on them, how much more wouldn’t God love them, since He was the one who created them? Either we trust God, or we don’t. Either we believe that God is Good, and He knows better than us, or we believe that we know better than God, and would do a better job than Him. Before jumping the gun and saying that we are much more loving than God, I would suggest that we take a look at our history as mankind, because I do believe that History is not our friend here.

[@AzimuthTao]

I've seen a multitude of videos of Cliffe and Stuart on college campuses, debating young people who are clueless about how to debunk their horrible apologetics. Alex, calmly and rationally destroys these two. Bravo.

[@illsaveus]

“A lot of innocents got caught up in the judgement and it bugs me” 😂😂😂😂 wow what a saint.

[@gandalainsley6467]

Its normal. Don't know what is funny about that. You know if you agree with everything someone says and does they are lying to you and using you and they know what you want.

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

@@gandalainsley6467It’s funny because it’s so pathetic. “I will commit myself to this religion with my entire being. This part is awful though, and seems evil. But I don’t think about that part very often, so it’s cool.”

[@gandalainsley6467]

@@UltimateKyuubiFox You really believe that? Also why you use concepts like good and evil if its all the same to you anyway? Its all subjective. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted.

[@lcm93]

​@@UltimateKyuubiFox yet I'm sure you yourself will commit yourself to things that cause pain and ignore that part. But oh wait maybe not because you're morally superior

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

@@gandalainsley6467 Because I don’t need to imagine being punished in order to not want to hurt other people.

[@jellslixcy6168]

It’s alright if we do it, and we can justify it for ourselves, but if anyone else does it - that’s wrong.

[@DarkLight-Ascending]

@@jellslixcy6168 yes.

[@SnakeLee1]

But the same thing happened to the Israelites, at least twice. Being sacked by Babylon. And the Bible writers of that say it was awful and justified.

[@gageduke7652]

@@SnakeLee1 Sounds to me like the Israelites came up with a justification to do the same evil that was done to them.

[@domcruise274]

@@jellslixcy6168 Atheists don’t believe murder is wrong in any absolute sense. Biblical view is that murder is always absolutely evil and God moving someone to the next life isn’t murder

[@jellslixcy6168]

@ I think you mean people that don’t believe in objective morality don’t think murder is wrong. Not all atheists don’t believe in objective morality. I am an atheist and I believe murder is wrong.

[@cyphos84]

@Alex O'Connor - I appreciate you so much, my friend. As a Christian, I think you're highlighting areas where more answers are needed to those approaching the faith with genuine inquiry. For me, I can come to terms with stories like this as acknowledging that my understanding is limited - I am not all-knowing as God is. Without being all-knowing and having divine wisdom, its impossible for me to comprehend the mind of God. I trust in God being all knowing, all powerful, infinitely good, wise, and just, and have faith in that. I truly understand though how dissatisfying of an answer that is to someone reading this story and not having the personal conviction of this description of God. I genuinely believe that we as Christians need to somehow bridge this gap - and maybe its just answering with a series of examples that help convey God's characteristics in such a way that leaving room for mystery doesn't feel shallow or lack fulfilment. Thank you so much for your work and for these conversations. God bless you.

[@andrewtsai777]

4:50 I am abhorred by this reference to the Chinese people. Acceptance of collective punishment is not Chinese-specific. Just because Chinese and broad Asian cultures are more collective rather than individualistic, doesn't mean that they find genocide or killing of infants and children acceptable. Who actually think that such anti-humanity crime is acceptable? Only believers. You found Chinese being OK with biblical genocides because you asked Chinese Christians. If you ask White, Black or other racial groups who are also Christians, they are also going to say it is acceptable. But to non-believers, the vast majority of them will have trouble accepting that genocide is an appropriate form of punishment.

[@AR0ACE]

Anti Asian racism? In Christianity? Say it ain't so.

[@Tomf-tz4pd]

Discarding the Chinese comment.. Prove first that what is contained in the Bible is Genocide.

[@autisticphaglosophy7128]

Chinese have a gene which makes them less empathetic don't be a science denier.

[@javierherrera8782]

Go cry a river

[@domcruise274]

@@andrewtsai777 Athiest worldview is that Murder and genocide is not evil in any absolute sense. Biblical worldview is that murder and genocide are always absolutely evil and that God killing someone is never murder/genocide. So which worldview is your comment based on?

[@TheHouseofContemplation]

The problem is, most Christians care more about what they interpret the Bible to mean rather than what the Bible actually says. The stories of the Bible are considered secondary to the primary position of "give yourself to Jesus and be saved", which is not even what the Bible is mainly about. Jews are much more honest with their Torah (Old Testament). They care about what it says rather than what they say about it. I say this as a Jew.

[@brotherben4357]

Most Christians haven’t read the Bible.

[@inteallsviktigt]

@@YuelSea-sw2rpthe evidence is the society with these people. Look at the result

[@darealkezz806]

That’s because as Christians we can default back to the character of Jesus Christ. If we believe Jesus Christ is who says he is then we can trust the Moral Compass of God because of the character of Jesus Christ. Jews can’t really do this to make sense of the Old Testament God and his ways, we can because we believe Jesus Christ is the perfect image of that God, and he was Good and morally perfect.

[@TheHouseofContemplation]

@@darealkezz806 It's amazing how much Jews are slandered when Christians are the ones who stole our book and added on their own. Our faith has everything to do with following God's commandments and nothing to do with Jesus Christ. Our traditions are kept alive today and Christians simply discredit them by saying we're obsessive over works and that they're meaningless. There's a reason Jews keep to themselves and don't try to convert others. We follow the exact laws that were outlined in the Torah and whenever a Christian discovers that, they rarely can respect our faith. Which again, was appropriated. There are many Jewish prophets and rabbis who are moral examples but Christians believe we have none without Christ - they care not to learn about the people they stole their Old Testament from. Ask any Rabbi - Jews emphasize moral conduct more than anything else. We are required by Jewish law to be honest and noble and we give away a portion of our income to the poor. That is non-negotiable. We are instructed to be kind and love our families and neighbors. Christ did not invent these morals as many Christians foolishly believe.

[@abdoolkareem_]

You know who else is honest with their book? Muslims

[@awesome3139]

8:30 Counterpoint, Alex. “Genocide” does not have to mean literally leaving no one alive. If that were the case, then there would be no such thing as genocide. Even Hitler did not succeed in killing all Jews. It was still genocide. It is “The deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people based on their race, ethnicity, nationality, or religion.” What is done in the Bible fits the bill.

[@al-kimiya6962]

Alex is a crypto zionist, look at the kind of people he surrounds himself with; WLC, JBP, destiny, shapiro and then these clowns.

[@SawarimHaqq]

​@@al-kimiya6962His sponsors are Zionists too, so it checks out.

[@shinywarm6906]

great point

[@domcruise274]

@@awesome3139 the Athiest worldview doesn’t believe genocide or what Hitler did is evil in any absolute sense. The Biblical worldview is that murder/genocide are always absolutely evil and God moving people to the next life is never murder/genocide. Do you know your own moral belief system?

[@rhaedas9085]

@@domcruise274 Atheists don't have a world view. They have one shared thought, that they don't have a believe in a deity. That's it. You're referring to the idea that evil is relative to a culture, which is absolutely is. As societies mature and come together they solidify what acts are wrong to be similar, and ideally enforce that on those who commit those acts. Ideally. So taking your statement on the afterlife - a wonderful loophole to absolve God from being judged in the same way a person would be. He's not killing or ordering murder, he's just...moving them along a bit ahead of schedule. Convenient.

[@johnwolfe1198]

Honestly, if you want someone who can better contend with the text, language and history, try and have Tim Mackie on your podcast Alex. I know many people would learn a lot from a conversation between you 2! He's from Bibleproject if that helps :D

[@erikoomen6462]

Cliffe has memorized responses to most questions, but he doesn't give genuine answers.

[@FollowJesus777-KING]

Yeah because typically there is only a couple answers you could give which align with your belief if people ask you roughly the same question. That doesnt make it not genuine. Like he gets asked some of the same questions a lot. And if he has a different answer everytime then that means that it probably isnt genuine. Christians usually have a lot of the same questions as aitheist. Which they have to find an answer to or say I dont know the answer yet

[@erikoomen6462]

@@FollowJesus777-KING Well I would agree if the answers would be answers. Cliffe just gives a long monologue about stuff that has nothing to do with it (usually). Besides, when Alex asks the question you can just see cliffe and stuart looking at each other. Deep down they know "ehh this is really wrong but I gotta defend god what were my mental gymnastics to get around this again"

[@c0ax]

Nice claim back it up

[@erikoomen6462]

@@c0ax You talking to me?

[@broshutup-ku5bz]

@@c0ax brother I'm Christian but I find it hard to stomach this I mean why kill innocent animals and children can u pls extent on these things.

[@Milkydrummer]

18:46 - “I don’t know what to call that other than a genocide” “…but it’s ultimately still to welcome them in” 😂😂😂

[@jtspetersen]

Yea, that was a “WTF he just said?” moment for sure.

[@mchappy7185]

Did you watch the whole video? Pray so that God will open our eyes to see.

[@Sreerags5959]

​@@mchappy7185 If you need God to open your eyes towards how problematic a contradiction like this really is when applied to the real world, then you have a long way to go as a human being.

[@dose143]

Israel is doing the same thing in Gaza right now

[@dududadadede96]

I had to pause and take a breather after that. I guarantee you that this whole mental gymnastics by the Knetchle is in some way to justify the ethnic cleansing in Gaza right now, so they don't have to wrestle with the idea of innocent kids being killed.

[@franturner6308]

I love Cliffe and Stuart! Amazing conversation, guys ❤️

[@azophi]

12:49 is wild that they just started talking about the modern-day Israel-Hamas war

[@chantalmarino7017]

I deeply admire both for their intelligence, cultural depth, and calm. Throughout the video, they both bring a sense of balance to the discussion, making even the most complex debate feel grounded and soothing. love to see more in the future.

[@jakegreen5081]

2:15 "Innocent people are killed" So Cliffe's God is unjust or not omnipotent to leave innocents living.

[@cubonefan3]

Imagine bending your sense of justice so much, that you think “Innocent people being killed is still justice”

[@SSJGaelY0]

and not to mention very messy supposedly

[@manicksgaming6949]

But if u use god standard all of them sinned so not so innocent

[@goldiffworks]

​@@manicksgaming6949It's a helluva thing to punish the entirety of somebody's lineage for all other generations to come because of a mistake they made ages ago.

[@manicksgaming6949]

@goldiffworks u dont make the rules ur not god. Go repent and accept jesus saved u

[@Theprofessorator]

Just a little bit into this, but this is probably the most sedated I've seen Cliffe Knechtle and he is infinitely more interesting and agreeable explaining why he believes these things than his normal schtick of just asserting his beliefs. I found myself agreeing with him on a lot of his interjections despite having the opposite overall conclusion. Very well done Mr. O' Conner and great job Cliffe, I'd like to see more of this!

[@lukedegraaf1186]

Did we watch the same thing? All they did was the usual attempt at inserting beliefs. What did you agree with?

[@oscargr_]

you are comparing it with his usual shtick of proselytising at college campus. Of course he is brazen there. Alex wasn't born yesterday, has a degree in philosophy/Theology, and doesn't accept bs. Not the same!

[@SixthHeaven6]

@@JDFREEMAN-e2n neither can you😭😭 I guarantee you’d get rhetorically dominated by a 3 year old with a diaper full of shit. I’ll debate you and embarrass you lol.

[@Theprofessorator]

@@lukedegraaf1186 a lot of his contentions that if we try to interject modern ethics in established history, we're always going to come up lacking. Like how when he brought up that it's only Western Cultures that seem to think that a god can't just order the death of people or cultures.

[@pawulstle]

Cliff dropped some hidden gems this time

[@TheBeardedSandman]

"We are more interconnected than we would like to admit" I LOVE this. It's not to say that I don't appreciate taking accountability for my own actions, but I do believe the choices of others, as well as my own choices affect both me and the people around me to a certain degree.

[@Yourhighnessnona]

The mustache has really grown on me ❤ I like it now!

[@thcbenji42069]

Stockholm syndrome in real time 😂

[@nicanorfredricksbirdrealm228]

No

[@its.that-time]

​@@thcbenji42069I'm very confused looking up the definition of that just now

[@johnrockyryan]

​@@thcbenji42069 nah dawg that's Apologetics

[@darknightofthesoul7628]

The Canaanites....were forced away from Yahweh, by Yahweh's multi-generational curse he placed upon Canaan, son of Ham, after Ham, Noah's son, did "something quite nasty" to Noah. Blaming the children for the sins of their fathers and mothers...what a vindictive, vengeful god. There is NO justification for his actions, including slavery, selling your daughter into sexual slavery, committing genocide over and over again...when will humanity wake up and return to worshipping the one true god, Zeus?

[@ΗκαλήΧαμογελαστή]

Zeus who r0ped women and killed people? I know that the last part was most likely a joke, but come on, you could have used a better example 💀

[@Btwoguns]

“Putting innocent women and children to the sword was actually gracious”…. Excuse me?!! As he says with a smile on his face

[@blakevinccent4928]

I think you lack any of his points from before, you take it out of context and frame it to bad pretty foolish on your part.

[@ericstewart-ce7eq]

@@blakevinccent4928There isn’t any context that makes that okay lol.

[@blakevinccent4928]

@@ericstewart-ce7eq take people out of context instead of their actual argument, is wrong. If you think somehow that’s not a problem you’re very closed minded. Your emotions don’t dictate morality.

[@LastMinutePhysics]

What did he think was meant by "take the women and children as plunder"? What are Israelite soldiers expected to do with a plundered virgins? The rationalizations are dumbfounding.

[@ericstewart-ce7eq]

@@blakevinccent4928 Not really. A bachelor can never be married, if someone says otherwise, I can comment on it without considering context because it’s false in every context. Same thing here. It’s rationality, not emotion.

[@Artanis15]

As a Christian I honestly love Alex’s vids and seeing him talk with people about God and creation and morality and humanity is really nice because he’s not up in your face about stuff he’s just so chill, can’t wait for the full pod!

[@Volleyball_Chess_and_Geoguessr]

"Do you think it's good that God killed innocent children?" "You went to college and other people built that college."

[@Allothersweretakenn]

Release the whole thing my guy!!!!

[@lewismurphy1562]

It's on his substack right now as far as I'm aware, and it should be released soon enough on the channel.

[@JudahGuerra]

A few days it will be.

[@Allothersweretakenn]

@@lewismurphy1562 this is too good don’t you agree!?

[@Allothersweretakenn]

@@JudahGuerra it’s too good so far

[@JudahGuerra]

@@Allothersweretakenn 😂yea but I ain’t paying

[@jezah8142]

The fact that it says god "regretted " making Saul king speaks volumes of his "omniscience "

[@Kidd_SS313]

theyre gonna argue against the fallacy of the idea of omniscience and note how it was hyperbole.

[@taylorw.m4558]

The Hebrew word for “regretted” means to suffer grief. So it is more accurate that Saul grieved the Lord with his actions.

[@mountainmonkey15]

God purposefully limited his omniscience for this universe He created as to not interfere with free will.

[@jezah8142]

@@taylorw.m4558 so did god know he was going to be disappointed in Saul?

[@jezah8142]

@@mountainmonkey15 so he can change his omniscience when he wants? Interesting

[@mjfraser04]

Could Cliffe or any Christian argue their moral beliefs using ONLY logic, reason, human experience, and empathy instead of the Bible? In other words, hypothetically speaking of course, if the Bible and all memory of the Bible vanished tomorrow, would Cliffe and other Christians go into moral and psychological chaos?

[@VHNEDVED]

I don’t think you fully understand what it means to be a Christian. Being a Christian is a conscious decision, not an illogical leap, as you suggest. While there are many books about various gods and mythologies, the Bible it’s a historical account that addresses logic, reason, human experience, and empathy, not just blind belief in a fairytale. Many people argue that belief in God is simply a way to find meaning or a purpose for existence. But for me, it’s far deeper. I experienced a transformation from darkness to light, from simply existing to truly living, discovering why we, as spiritual beings, need God. That "book" written by men yet divinely inspired, offers a path not just to “being good,” but to finding true purpose by learning to die to ourselves and placing all our trust in the name that is above every other name. Finally, I should mention that I speak to you as someone who was an atheist for 20 years. I went to college, studied logic and science, and yet, despite your supposition that “the Bible vanish tomorrow,” I don’t see chaos. Instead, I found the One who brings order to the universe and cares for my soul. Take care!

[@8thMusketeer]

You do realize that using ONLY logic, reason, human experience, and empathy to justify morality basically just makes morality purely subjective. Why don't we do that? Because we don't think morality is subjective.

[@mjfraser04]

@ Of course I realized that. Sorry if you thought you had a “gotcha!” That is part of my point. YOU tie your morals to a 2000+ year old book. Fine. That’s your subjective choice. But then you go on to assert/claim that your holy book is the morality rule book for everyone else too. With in mind, if that booked hypothetically didn’t exist and your memory of it vanished, would you go into moral chaos and not know how to function in society?

[@deepforestfire]

What annoys me is that they will justify these acts in the OT, but then when Muhammad and his followers essentially did the same thing, they claim, "Oh, see Muslims worship a God that would have them kill in their stead; our God said to turn the other cheek!" Like, are you serious?

[@SawarimHaqq]

"Muhammad is a warlord, Islam is obviously false!" but then go to justify the murder of women and babies, which even Islam forbids!

[@Littlekitten_]

You can’t compare the both in this way , it’s ignorant , Muslims compare Jesus to Mohamed as they claim they are both prophets . Us Christian’s believe Jesus is God , he is Perfect and did not sin . Mohammed for a fact did have a child wife and slept with multiple women and married his son’s wife for looking at her lustfully .

[@SawarimHaqq]

@@Littlekitten_ No, his question is quite valid. Why the double standards when the Christian commanded slavery, genocide, and impregnated Mary at 13? And don't forget that His prophets "engaged" in sins and practiced polygamy, so clearly prophethood has nothing to do with morality and truth of a religion according to Christianity.

[@Littlekitten_]

@@SawarimHaqq excuse me ? You literally never read the Bible . I am baffled by how wrong and disgusting you just lied . . You are the type to believe in a lot of silly conspiracy theories . Not even atheist say this nonesense.

[@Dru517]

@@Littlekitten_he also believes MoMo flew to Jerusalem on a magical donkey. And MoMo was possessed by a demon lol. Says so in the Quran. What a prophet lol. He was also poisoned by a Jewish women who MoMo had just killed her husband and sons. MoMo was a warlord. Nothing more. Nothing less. A slave owner and slave seller. He loved his women slaves for sure.

[@Pr0t0typeSky]

Cliffe equating empathy as a temptation against god and doesn’t even realize it

[@gerharderasmus8421]

Those two definitely know they face a worthy opponent.

[@jaredrosengren4033]

It’s nice to see them talking reasonably with Alex rather than trying to score mic drops like at the college campuses they visit.

[@jacobh2209]

This kind of question is only answered by sound biblical theology. God is sovereign and has the right to judge, and nobody is innocent.

[@SupremeSquiggly]

In other words, don’t think about it.

[@lh7550]

Well, around min 1:30, Cliffe says it is an Exageration; that most people condemned to die is still alive in the next chapters... But that Neglectance to Kill Everyone as Ordered is Later portrayed as the Cause for much future Trouble.

[@autisticphaglosophy7128]

So? The same is said about themselves later in as well.

[@matejanosov2584]

Twenty minutes of non-answers, truly amazing how they can't give an actual answer to anything! What was he even trying to say at 10:34, going on a full rant about God trying to separate his people?

[@danielearl3591]

I think the idea is “Israelites were VERY special, therefore they can do these things” Absurd yes.

[@jebkermen6087]

that's how you get nazis. "We're the Supreme race and your death is a fare price to pay so that our people may live on your land." And then 80million people get murdered en mass. Many people fought every step of the nazis rise to power. and so do I plan to fight at every step, every street, every breath. May such things of old not repeat themselves again in the new ere. "The only thing that you need for evil to triumph, is for good men to do nothing." - A Fighter.

[@antcross8623]

@@danielearl3591well if God had favoritism then why was it written that he used the Assyrians and Babylonians to judge Israel.

[@danielearl3591]

@@antcross8623 because that was God’s chosen punishment for his chosen people?

[@matejanosov2584]

@@danielearl3591 I understand that he was trying to say that, but it was complete opposite of what the other guy said. Either these orders are hyperbole, or they have to be taken literally. You can't have the cake and eat it too. The moment you say the jews didn't have fo kill everyone, every statement and absurd order could be questioned on its hyperbolism. How could a perfect being not be perfectly clear regarding his orders? - God, we killed everyone, as you asked. - Nice! Wait... even Timmy, the little cripple boy and her widow mother who did everything to support her child? - Yes, as per your orders. - Come on guuuuys I was clearly using HYPERBOLE, you didn't need to kill them! But I said what I said, tee-hee you get a free genocide pass!

[@gerinja]

I'm a Christian and I think the questions you make are good for us to think about. Thanks for sharing.

[@crazyprayingmantis5596]

Go see what Dr Ammon Hillman has to say. He's an expert in ancient Greek medical texts and is translating stuff from Antiquity that has yet to be translated. Warning, you may be shocked by what he's translating

[@SR-ry6hs]

Wait, how long have you been a Christian? And now you are just considering whether you approve of genocide in the Bible? It's amazing the cognitive dissonance of so many people. It's a disgusting and perverse act, then... now. .. in the future... doesn't matter. It should all be condemned. There is NO justification. To even try and justify it you have to give up your humanity. Disgusting.

[@Caleb_287]

@@SR-ry6hsGod gave them 400 years to repent of the evil acts listed in Leviticus 18

[@SR-ry6hs]

@Caleb_287 so it says in a Bible verse. What did this god provide in the way of help to make sure these people understood what was supposedly at stake? Where is the empathy and loving nature that your god supposedly has in this instance? It's all made up so I don't care, but people use this kind of rhetoric to do unspeakable and u ethical things even today. It's disgusting . There is never, ever a justification for mass murder or genocide, even for your made up god.

[@gerinja]

@@SR-ry6hs I don't know all the answers and I bet you don't either. So how can you call it genocide? If you would be a bit of a critical thinker and not just lean one way; it would be much better for you. God bless.

[@mugflub]

Nobody beats Alex when it comes to having intellectually honest, good-faith arguments with people who have different beliefs. I'm looking forward to many more years of his work.

[@void-brb]

Am I the only one who thought it was hilarious how they looked at each other at 0:56 ?

[@ASTROPLANET13]

Apologism in a snapshot. "You want this one?" "Naw, I'm better at defending slavery. You can get human sacrifices next. "

[@ParadoxProblems]

Yeah, then he says "No." and continues the rest of the conversation arguing for "yes"

[@kaidne]

It's because they decide in that glance who answers the question. They do it all the time in podcasts.

[@ΗκαλήΧαμογελαστή]

@@ASTROPLANET13 Human sacrifice is condemned in the Bible

[@connorohara751]

13:02 "I believe that innocent children were killed by Israeli bombs, and they happened to be Palestinians; part of Hamas maybe, or Hezbollah." What a great way to not only not answer the question Alex asked, even remotely, but also to show your complete ignorance. I can promise you, Cliffe, that there were no Palestinian babies that were members of Hamas or Hezbollah. It's disgusting how these guys have no problem dehumanizing their perceived enemies, whether it's the Amalekites or the Palestinians. If innocent people are going to be killed, then we should not be going there to fight.

[@79Fbanana]

Its all fun and games until your ideology is being used to justify a very brutal, in progress genocide. If these men are saved, then no one is.

[@CSS916]

I’m really disappointed in Cliffe.

[@Dorkeydaze]

@@connorohara751 The point was to show you and I live in nations that do the same exact thing you judge God for but on a scale hundreds of times larger than was possible in the Bronze Age. If humans are so much more moral and good than God than why does it seem so impossible to trust our nations our rulers or even our neighbors. If you had your life savings on display in the street and told everyone “this wealth belongs to me I’ll return in 24 hours but if you steal it you won’t be punished” in your local city would you trust in the average person in your city of millions to NOT steal your stuff? I know if I did the same with Jesus I wouldn’t fear my money being stolen at all

[@domcruise274]

@@CSS916 Athiest worldview is that Murder and genocide is not evil in any absolute sense. Biblical worldview is that murder and genocide are always absolutely evil and that God killing someone is never murder/genocide. So which standard is disappointed?

[@domcruise274]

@@connorohara751 you want humans to have free will, but you get upset when evil is allowed, then you get upset when evil is judged. Then you say the way and timing that God moves people into the next life is incorrect

[@dominicpardo4783]

If mental gymnastics were an Olympic event, these guys would be gold medalists.

[@mainecoonmami]

I used to consider apologetics an intellectual practice. Now I see it as a psychological phenomenon where smart people completely block out certain facts, just to maintain their beliefs. An “Olympic sport” if you will. 🤸‍♀️

[@dominicpardo4783]

@mainecoonmami Specialists in confirmation bias?

[@mainecoonmami]

@ I had no idea there were PHDs in that “field”. 😆

[@Baller4life2001]

The mental gymnastics to believe material came from the non material. And then life came from non life. And then that life evolved to get to the level of our consciousness by a series of defects when defects in our code show nothing but death. I believe also deserves a gold metal! You as an atheist, I’m assuming, and me as a Christian both face a claim of faith

[@dominicpardo4783]

@Baller4life2001 Nope. Science doesn't posit that something came from nothing. And science doesn't assume. Science bases its findings on available evidence. As the fact that universe is still expanding (Doppler Red Shift), and the abundance of microwave background radiation demonstrates that the Big Bang occurred. Consciousness is merely the state of being aware of one's internal and external existence.

[@joeygladstone7]

Christian here, i think Alex did a great job asking level headed questions and God bless him for that. I also do struggle with these verses and I leave it to trusting that when God says he sovereignly good and holy unlike humans, I take Him at His word and do my best to leave my feelings and squirminess out. Take care y’all

[@redpillpusher]

yah the god believers who flew planes into buildings also took "god" at "his" word and left their "feelings and squirminess" (i.e. leaving out logic, rationality, critical thinking and morality) out of it.

[@Linkaless]

"I take Him at His word" - How do you know it's his word? How do you know it's his word (and true) when a plain reading of the same book describes other wise. People can write anything in a book, doesn't make it from god, mean there IS one.

[@aguyinavan6087]

I research this time period. Oh how I wish I could have a conversation with you. There is so much that needs to be said about the Old Testament.

[@rickbradlytchahatchokonthe9614]

can you elaborate please?

[@semi4]

The Lord gives and the Lord takes away. No one has ever adequately refuted that argument.

[@Sreerags5959]

​@@semi4Literally every single existing Non-Christian religion does it, every single day.

[@aguyinavan6087]

@@rickbradlytchahatchokonthe9614 Ask any question.

[@Hurricayne92]

​@@semi4so you believe that a parent can legally kill their biological child?

[@panchopuskas1]

At this stage in proceedings, with what is going on in the world and particularly in Gaza and Lebanon, I don't how you keep your patience with these bullshitters.

[@niddy-2.0]

Benjamin Netanyahu literally stated 1 Sam 15 as justification for their behavior....

[@Ppm1845]

What's going on there is children being brainwashed and are said to hate Jews while Palestinians in Israel are living their dream life.

[@AsixA6]

@ Spouted the brainwashed magic believer.

[@young_raymond47]

These people don't realise how dangerous their mentality is. There is at least some level of discomfort with these passages, unlike Lane Craig, but gaslighting yourself into tolerating or condoning the murder of children to any extent is so problematic.There's a reason religion is such a hotbed for extremism. If you believe that god's commandment is righteous by definition, then your moral intuition is completely irrelevant. Especially in the case of Lane Craig, the way he talks makes it sound like if he woke up one morning convinced that god had ordered him to sh**t up a school, he would happily do it since god's will is always moral. It should be so easy to say that killing children is wrong without floundering over the implications on your faith.

[@wfemp_4730]

"If you believe that god's commandment is righteous by definition, then your moral intuition is completely irrelevant." Great point.

[@bike4aday]

But God's commandments are spoke to us through moral intuition.

[@c0ax]

I agree atheism is dangerous

[@young_raymond47]

@@bike4aday Yet you just commented under a video where two people essentially tried to justify the killing of children because it was commanded by god. Which moral intuition are they appealing to, do you reckon?

[@wfemp_4730]

@@bike4adayWhat does our moral intuition say about killing others? Did man really need a Commandment against killing yet not for owning human beings as slaves?

[@joelpitman6529]

Soo good! I am a Christian. I love hearing Alex’s line of questioning. It’s questions I think any serious Christian has to work through. I think part of the answer to what they are talking through is spelled out in Romans 7:13. Where it basically states that we don’t understand sin if there is no law against it. But in the giving of the law, sin has been made obvious in my conscience. I only need to read it once for it to take effect. Likewise through the stories of the old testament where lives lived by those in the stories demonstrates the effects of sin, and the requirements of a holy God. I have another obvious demonstration of what separates people from their maker. Why would we need the sacrifice of Jesus, if we had no understanding of our sin? What we know about history is that we learn nothing from history. We have written history of the work of God in the context of ancient and near middle eastern culture. This is how he worked with these people of the area through the Israelites in order to save man-kind. It was a working demonstration of how he feels about certain sin. Very complexed.

[@Archaedas000]

As an ex- christian, I could never ever rationalize the biblical text and as I studied it further all it did was present more questions. I kept asking the so-called leadership and the less and less capable they were able to answer the questions I had about the text with any clarity, the more I realized how full of shit it was. I fee like If I wasn't neruo-divergent and lacked any sense of deeper curiosity and justice motivation, I think I would've just convinced myself that they knew best or that "god" was smarter than me and I was meant to just follow.

[@mailill]

I think I can relate. I'm an ex-Christian as well, and even when I was a very devout Christian I saw the Old Testament as clearly man-made and full of human mistakes and misunderstandings about the loving God I believed in. Or it wouldn't make logical sense (not being quite neurotypical myself, though I don't really know if that's the reason). I saw the Bible as a history of developing human ideas about God, and thought the understanding went from very faulty and crude to more sophisticated and more true in The New Testament (but I still thought it was influenced by the culture and views of that time). That view didn't make me believe less in the main message of Christianity and I was at the time very much seeking to have a "relationship with God/Jesus", but when I started to see the dogmas about Jesus as pure myths as well (for example that Jesus is supposed to be the son of God with a human mother, virgin birth, divine blood sacrifice to allow God to forgive our sins, the standard miracles of the time, resurrection and ascension etc), I left the Church and stopped seeing myself as a Christian, because it seems one is to take the dogmas about Jesus quite literal, and it seems to be the main requirement - which is a shame IMO, since Jesus had a radical message about charity and love ("the Way" he was identifying with) which in my opinion is much more important than the myths and fantasies about him,

[@bghiggy]

Even as a 6 year old I remember listening to the story of Noah and even I thought "there's literally no way 2 of every single species in the world could fit on a boat"

[@Jocky8807]

I don't think you are supposed to rationalize it. They are just bad people. The US and the west also issued similar cry. To annihilate all isis stronghold. A general even said he would hunt down every last of isis member. Is that a wrong thing?

[@MATCHLESS789]

​@@bghiggyeven if granted that.. 2 of every animal.. IN THE ENTIRE WORLD? Or did they only take the local ones and doomed the rest? How long would it take you to accomplish something like that today even if you were able to locate all of them, yet alone with technology available back then.

[@wfemp_4730]

@VerseAfterVerse No True Scotsman, perhaps?

[@theresachilz]

Alex I enjoyed this as a Christian! Thank you I really liked the last bit of it. We know God doesn’t change in his being but his laws change with time. The times of the Canaanite were barbaric and as someone from Africa I’m almost sure that we used to eat each other. Some of those judgments were very human at the time considering what they actually used to do to each other. Also not forgetting the theology behind the Bible which explicitly says children have a straight ticket to heaven. If we are going to discuss the Bible as a book or even as regular texts , ignoring that part would be disingenuous. Even in the next 1000 years people will be judging how God allowed kids to get gender reassignment surgeries in 2024 😂😂😂. At the end of the day he sent his only begotten son as a once of debt to pay for all who believe in him and his kingdom will have no end. That’s were the true hope is ❤

[@carverbrauchle891]

Why would the laws change? Is God not all-powerful and all-knowing? If God already has perfect morality, why does it seem he can't say the ideal morality immediately? This is a God that can flood the entire world, burn entire cities down at a whim, and create the universe, but when it comes to commanding people not to enslave or commit genocide, his hands are tied by contemporary socio-political norms?

[@THEREALAKRINIM]

@@shatteredteethofgod the fall of man, the war between good and evil. ironically, the big bang theory was not only theorized by a catholic priest, but also depicts a violent reality of our existence.

[@theresachilz]

@ well the laws have to change, he has always been that way when it comes to his law because he gave us a free will and knows that we progress with time. So laws should also be appropriate to time.

[@UltimateKyuubiFox]

@@theresachilzEither God’s word is moral or it’s not. Moral relativism and a supposedly All Good deity can’t mix.

[@popeyefreeze2541]

You’re completely lost as a human if you can listen to this and still think that the side that murders children is somehow justified. You are absolutely disgusting and beyond help

[@Z0mbie.]

my favorite Atheist and Christian finally debate

[@Egooist.]

Apologists: "God is the source of objective morality. Also Apologists: "Today we consider it cruel, but back in those days ..."

[@TheAlphaLegionnaire]

Comparing modern war casualties to a specific order to destroy everything that breaths down to the children and the animals of a nation is pretty disingenuous.

[@supremeakuma]

THIS NEEDS to be TOP COMMENT

[@TheWunder]

They called Palestinians Amalek.

[@VonKirda]

Why ?

[@autisticphaglosophy7128]

Modern wars have more casualties than those of the ancient near east including any Israelite war even per capita.

[@sparrowthesissy2186]

Absolutely not. Mass murder was wrong then and it's wrong now, and none of the excuses from any time period are valid.

[@oldmanwaterfall]

Btw, Israeli commanders & officials have literally referred to these old testament genocides in the current genocidal crimes in Gaza.

[@Bob-v6h8t]

There are many Israelis who genuinely believe their actions are always justified, even the abhorrent ones. Any rational person can look at the history of the region for the past 200 years or so and see that, while the Palestinians don't have clean hands, either, the actions of the Israelis have been one of conquest since the start. And if you go back thousands of years, yes, it is the same then too.

[@robotmerger]

3:21 understood have a nice day

[@kingflockthewarrior202]

But his wellbeing is in keep on beliving because he dont have any other skill to earn his living

[@goldiffworks]

Takes a big man to admit that you don't fully understand what you're talking about, but the way he speaks about the Bible with such confidence makes it seem like he doesn't actually mean that. Confidence breeds incompetence.

[@Kevin-xk3me]

are you that narrow minded? What the hell did you want him to say?

[@simonhavrisciuc4605]

​@@goldiffworkshe surely is more competent than you

[@docgraal485]

@@Kevin-xk3me Well as someone who has an undying faith in the all loving God, I would at least expect him to rationalise why the genocide of innocent children was necessary for the greater good. Nobody is perfect but if you can see a flaw, no, A FUNDAMENTAL FLAW within the character of God, I think it’s illogical to believe in such without a) not knowing any better b) being purposely ignorant

[@geraldbritton8118]

Great challenges by Alex. Man. I love that guy! Terrific answers also. Especially appreciated the difference between the 21st century lens and the ancient near East practices. Really shed some light on things for me

[@EnglishMike]

The answers were terrible. Twisting and turning in all kinds of knots to justify the unjustifiable. We even get a whole heap of subjective arguments by claiming that the descriptions in the old testament are hyperbolic. Does that mean everything else in the old testaments is also hyperbole? So much for inerrancy.

[@geraldbritton8118]

@EnglishMike @EnglishMike since the ot has many genres not everything could be hyperbolic. E.g. the law code, the ten commandments and more. Otoh It seems that military accounts were often hyperbolic across the ane. Inerrancy is about the overall message, not each detail. E.g. when a round basin was described as 10 cubits diameter and 30 perimeter it's not a problem for inerrancy. Maybe that's a bad example but there are lots of others.