How to Select a Scope Focal Plane ~ One Is Not Better Than the Other!

[@davestrohmeyer-saddleupsho8009]

Thanks for expressing your strong disapproval of long range shots for hunting. On my channel I try to express the understanding of MPBR and of cartridge Terminal ballistics limitations. But I almost always get comments about someone taking 600 to 800 yards shots on medium to large game as the new normal. Those long range hunting comments are unsettling to me as well.

[@paddynelson3586]

I agree. I hunt with open sights. First because I've never had a scope, and second I don't need one walking around in the bush hunting. I'm not hunting antelope on the plains. Moose and deer in the bush.

[@farmerwayne1404]

Yes! Its pretty amazing to see them shoot/hunt that far. But I would imagine that there are alot of misses and maiming. Thats not good !

[@Paladin1873]

The terminal effectiveness of a hit at those ranges is problematic when you consider how wind shift might affect bullet placement and how the reduced energy at impact will alter projectile penetration and expansion. it doesn't help that the popular gun writers of the past were sometimes given to bragging about their feats of superhuman marksmanship. Frankly, I prefer the writings of famous game stalkers such as Corbett and Bell. Get close and place the shot where it guarantees a clean kill. That's real hunting.

[@unbalancedredneck5778]

The problem with people shooting that far is they’re misleading people. They only show the success, they don’t show the misses or the wounded animals that where never recovered.

[@leadpilled5567]

I think the biggest problem are the guys that do it on KZbin are capable and put 1000s of rounds thru the rifle but then weekend warriors think they can do it after shooting a couple hundred rounds at known ranges with no wind and no experience reading wind in real world situations. If you chain up a deer at 1000 yards and no wind and I’m prone on nice flat ground I’d have no problem making the shot. Shooting across a valley off a backpack with unknown winds is completely different. And worse yet are the idiots that buy a BDC reticle scope thinking they can do it.

[@wfrentzel7503]

Best explanation of first and second focal plane scopes I’ve heard or read. Thanks!

[@dougalmcalpine6804]

Even though I'm educated on this subject I still just love hearing you explain it without any BS.

[@rafeer896]

You’re a good guy man. I wish you were my neighbor, we could sit and talk together about this type of stuff for hours. Especially the reloading stuff.

[@jerrychambers7267]

No doubt you are my favorite teacher, love all your videos long and short. Thank you for the spot on classes. God Bless

[@Patriotx-gx4ce]

Educated and experienced. Best explanation on this topic. Thank you for time to make this. I needed to hear this and I was designated marksman in my unit. Instructors never bothered to explain us this part.

[@bushinbritishcolumbia6935]

Another great vid

[@happyhome41]

Learned still more. Thank you !

[@gizmocarr3093]

Great explanation for a confusing question that is difficult to explain.🙂

[@dinoquintana4319]

I'm probably close to your age.i see you as gramps .you are excellent at teaching.mostly I would like to hear more hunting stories and outdoor experiences from you .the Christmas day rabbit hunt with Benny was great .keep up the great work

[@RobertCowanJr]

love this man. full of knowledge

[@ifyoucantjointhem]

Great video, great information! I am really enjoying these shorter videos which condense all the important information about a single topic in one blast. Keep it up, cheers from Australia 🤙

[@bobbyboothe8964]

Another Great video... Thanks for the follow up. Great information.... GOD Bless You Sir.

[@stinger4583]

Thank you. I've always wondered about this.

[@rodscrivner7132]

My favorite gun channel...Smart, smart man..

[@matthewgaeta2088]

Great video. Fixed 4x & 6x are my favorite. 6x with a custom elevation dial for open country and that's just about perfect.

[@BigSmartArmed]

I agree fully. I like 3.5x wide angle out to 500 and 6x out to 800 meters. 8x is too narrow angle to see trace and not enough magnification for target shooting.

[@garthhunt7238]

Excellent video!!👍👍👍

[@farmerwayne1404]

Great stuff! Very good explanation of 1st & 2nd. Now if you had a junker scope (and you probably don't) it would be interesting to see a tear down and see how one is put together. Just sayin' Shabbat Shalom, Brother!

[@Peter-od7op]

I think anything more than 1/2 second flight should be the limit. Thats usually under 500 yards

[@maximpestsolutions3696]

Thank you for the Video Brother ✝️. All the very best to you and your family for the New Year 🙏. Thank you for your Videos 😇. God 🙏 Bless ✝️💛.

[@stevenkennedy4130]

A wealth of information with this man! Thanks for the share!!

[@MrMillez]

Always enjoy hearing what you have to say. Years of wisdom and no BS. 🙏

[@andrewcleveland]

As always GunBlue excellent video. All of my hunting rifles wear second focal plane scopes. Favorites being 2.5-8 or 3-9 power. My only first focal plane scope is on a dedicated target rifle. At the lowest setting of 5X you can’t even see the reticle. So it’s virtually useless for me on a hunting rifle in Mississippi. I can see why some western hunters might like that style of scope, but I personally have no use in a hunting scoping being on 10 power to see the reticle in a pine thicket. Target shooting though I much prefer the first focal plane scope.

[@patmancrowley8509]

Blessed be GOD forever.

[@geico1975]

This series is fantastic, so glad you covered focal plane, so many varrying parts that sometime gets a little confusing. Great job explaining. My opinion has always been unless you're practicing for sniper school 2nd plane is all you need:)

[@GunBlue490]

You are correct. The only thing I'd stress is that 1st focal plane is not at all a matter of getting a better, or advanced option, as with options on a car. It's an entirely different system for entirely different purposes. People often perceive that because it costs more, it must be more desirable, which is not the case in the least. The system is simply more costly, due to the required parts and manufacturing processes involved. Front focal is only suited for long range target shooting, and rear focal is for hunting or standard target shooting.

[@hiramhaji7813]

Great video

[@garyelliott2670]

Great information, love you're channel, God bless!

[@butchgeagan9768]

Me too, best explanation I have heard.

[@dylanvisitacion8618]

Thanks be to God 👍

[@ElainesDomain]

I buy old scopes from the 1980's. Great old scopes when they are like new and they are cheaper than mediocre name brands out there. I'm around Mr Gunblue's age and was taught that if you wound the game you tracked it down. You never let the animal suffer. Good video about scopes. Thanks

[@BigSmartArmed]

One time I went hunting with a local. He's the guy that's on call with the local ranger station. When weekend hunters come about with their full deck tags and start shooting all over the place, he's the guy that knows how to quickly track down wounded game. He knows where any given local type of game goes when they are wounded, and which predators to watch out for when they are tracking as well. When he hunts he take his light frame, but when he goes to track down wounded game he brings a 300 winmag.

[@DOUGLASLASH-xy4ct]

THANK YOUN SIR!

[@setdown2]

Great video on scopes... BTW...whatever happened to the Timber Frame project...???

[@GunBlue490]

I had a temporary set back with extreme hot weather, then rain, topped off by a severely stiff neck over a number of weeks, so I've packed up for the winter. I'll be returning to the project bright and early next spring. I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks for asking!

[@Joeatsaco69]

Thank you for helping to explain that. I enjoy long range shooting but like to use SFP lower magnification in my area of NE Texas where animals are usually

[@payres48]

Thank you sir for a very clear and concise explanation of first and second focal plane. I hope Benny is still doing well. Best wishes from Australia.

[@edstimator1]

You sir, are a wealth of information and you do a fine job of explaining what you know. A lot of very intelligent people fail in that mission.

[@GunBlue490]

I give thanks to Our Lord Jesus Christ for whatever I have to share. Thank you.

[@edstimator1]

@@GunBlue490 In return, it seems he has blessed you with a good life. Praise the Lord!

[@jaydeveas2930]

Best vid on this topic!

[@neiledwards8931]

May I say ; FFP scope has the advantage that when you change power setting example from 12x to 6x power then the accuracy is not effected , but using a SFP you have to use the power setting which you Zeroed on , by changing to another power the impact of the bullet or pellet will not hit the identical spot on target 🎯 Cheers 🥂

[@independentthinker8930]

Love your videos. You are a wealth of knowledge

[@Slaphitter]

Indeed!

[@Paladin1873]

I regularly confuse the terms first and second focal plane because there is no point of reference for their meanings. Front and rear focal plane are much easier to conceptualize, though I still have to think about which type of crosshair is changing size. Sighting out to 300 yards has never been an issue for me, regardless of focal plane type, so I don't worry about it. I don't do any long range target shooting or hunting and, short of war, I can't envision a practical need for it. I know some folks will take 400-600 yard shots on varmint and game animal, but the vast majority of hunters will never have an opportunity or justifiable reason to do so. When I'm in any bush, I prefer iron sights or maybe a 1.5X scope. I do have one carbine fitted with a reflex sight, but I've not done much experimenting with it.

[@stephenland9361]

An issue I see regularly at my local gun range and in the bush when hunting, is people putting a scope best described as a 'target scope' on a hunting rifle. They have gee whiz turrets, zero stops, very complicated reticles and usually enough magnification to be better suited for amateur astronomy. They are large, heavy and come with a considerable 'user's manual'. All the big names in scope manufacturing make these scopes and they are usually quite expensive. The higher end ones are several thousand dollars. They are almost always first focal plane. If you're going to do long range target shooting, put one on a dedicated target rifle. They're just the ticket for 1000 yard shoots, F Class and reaching out to a mile. BUT, one thing they are not is a proper hunting scope. People are tempted to take shots at game at distances that no ethical hunter should take. KZbin videos of game being taken at 1000 yards or more make me cringe. Of course, you only see the successful shots. I wonder how many lousy shots, hitting a limb only or the abdomen you don't see. A superbly accurate rifle chambered in a new, 'long distance' cartridge like .300 PRC, topped with a high end 'tactical' scope is a target rifle, not a hunting rifle.

[@robertturner2916]

I have both FFP and SFP scopes. What I like about FFP is my zero doesnt change with changes in magnication. I can zero at 100 yards with a certain magnification and my zero doesn't change if I zoom in or out. If I want more detail when examining a target I can zoom in, less detail then I zoom out. There is still bullet drop to contend with if you go out past point blank range which is more prevalent when hunting out West (i.e.pronghorn) vs East where the foliage dictates how far you are able to reliably shoot. You were so caught up in the emotions about unethical hunting attributed to FFP scopes that you didn't present the well balanced and thoughtful insights you normally embrace.

[@hansblitz7770]

The center of the reticle is still the center, the subtensions change, not the center zero.

[@robertturner2916]

Yep, you're right. I mistated.

[@samadams9557]

Thank you sir

[@ruansiebert]

Brilliant

[@aaronwilcox6417]

Good video. I've got both but currently the new crop of FFP LPVO sights are the most useful for me. The intelligently designed new reticles with the death donuts and chevron in the center now allow the use of low power settings with FFP optics. The issue of the FFP reticle getting lost on lower magnification has now been addressed and I prefer the fact that ffp reticle subtensions values remain consistent on all power selections. Still I agree that it's not about one being better than the other. It's about how do you want to get there and which design suits your uses.

[@axe609]

There are some interesting and faddish new things in scopes theses days. I have seen first focal LPVO's that when they zoom out the reticle becomes a red dot, I have seen some where the reticle disappears at low power even at full illumination. People really need to think about what they need based on the use they plan for the scope more. The latest greatest, may not be very good for what you plan to do. These videos are great for bringing people back down from the hype to the reality of what is actually best for their needs.

[@christopherpederson7190]

I think its worth noting that with first focal plane scopes the reticle can make a big difference with close up shots. The Burris Veracity for example has a reticle with very thick outer crosshairs and very usable up close at low magnification. I do agree though that most ffp scopes will have a reticle that is less than ideal for in the woods hunting.

[@GunBlue490]

Yes, but the advantages of a FFP, intended for hold-off shooting, aren't compatible with ethical hunting situations, so hunters are better off with a dedicated SFP hunting scope that has clean, easy to find reticles without dots and stadia that confuse an image with a fast shot. I've never been a "fish nor foul" advocate for anything.

[@thebleeb1681]

I have a Veracity, and I agree that the reticle is fine on low power settings. It is better than almost all FFP scopes I've looked through. I do not use the hold-off measurements for hunting, for reasons explained by our expert host. Edited to note that I bought it for the great glass and the low sale price.

[@disgracebook5708]

Thank You. I appreciate how you clearly discuss the best uses for each. I’m looking at scopes for my cz 457 American chambered in 17 hmr. Since it will be primarily a varmint hunting rifle with a little plinking on the side, the choice becomes clear.

[@disgracebook5708]

Clean, low light bright glass, & light weight are important. Now to figure what magnification range I need is next thing to consider.

[@GunBlue490]

Of greatest importance is to purchase a rimfire scope. Leupold and others designed them specifically for the uses of rimfire rifles, with very fine reticles for small game and other small targets, compactness, and most importantly, parallax factory adjusted to 60, rather than 150 yards. That feature allows for precision strikes within all rimfire distances.

[@pearleelife]

Cheers

[@chrismills4213]

Excellent….it is very unfortunate that so many people what to shoot Elk, Moose etc at 500 plus yards…totally unethical! Seen a you man shoot 9 shoots at a Moose around 650 yards…oh my. He was loaded up with the fancy scope, “long range rifle “ and high end ammo….He never did get the beautiful large bull moose….it went off to perish somewhere. Love your content….God bless.👍

[@noahswano48]

Wonderfull

[@bobdixon4998]

I have a Sheppard P1 ffp scope. it's really nice. and my reticle is a series of circles that subtend 18" at 100 yds through 1000 yds. I actually got one 8" group at 1000 yds. my 30/06 with a Hornady 165 sst super performance drops 315" @ 1000 yds.

[@sparky_-mf2cs]

Crazy how many hunters dont know much if not anything at all about this subject...i seen most hunters use first focal plane with 16x or even 24x magnification because thats what stores sell them...

[@ibpositivemostly7437]

Cool video thanks.

[@rogerray2545]

👍

[@Brett235]

I hunt with a shotgun because the area in which I live is very dense with trees and brush. There are open areas like pastures and power line right of ways, but for the most part a 50 to 75 yard shot is all I'll normally get. No one has ever taught me about scopes, I bought a rifle that came with a scope and a friend of mine showed me how to sight it in and I still couldn't hit anything with it. I'll just stick to my shotgun or my old lever action 30/30 with open sights.

[@davoocass]

FFP seems to be for those who play around with magnification more than I do, I only use the hold overs at my highest magnification, anything less is point blank range. I'd wager a lot of people spend the extra money on FFP and never make use of it's differences because of the way it's advertised as something "better" and not something different.

[@AtlasJotun]

Ha, unfortunately I'm one of the people who fell for it! I have one scope, and it's second focal plane. I did indeed think that was a side affect of being a cheapskate buying a cheap scope (I've heard and read complaints about reticle size issues). As I'm no marksman, just a plinker, I didn't really think anything of it.

[@GunBlue490]

A second focal plane scope is always the best all purpose scope, no matter what. The first focal plane is for specialized long range shooting with mil radian range compensation techniques.

[@boogerdog5247]

@@GunBlue490 I follow you for like forever. We are same age group. I comply with your ethics, as an eastern U.S. Hunter, unless hunting on power lines, etc.,even a 100 yd. shot at game is a rarity. My go to, since around 89' or 90', is the Rem. 700 in .270 with my Denver U.S. Redfield 3x9 Illuminator. Awesome glass and light transmission at dark thirty under timber in an Alabama or Ga. bottom. I've since bought several vintage Redfield Illuminators, I find them peerless. Keep it simple, don't fix what ain't broke...take ethical shots, and practice efficient bullet placement. ( btw, speaking of bullets, Federal Premium, with 150gr Nosler Partition. )

[@RobertCowanJr]

i can only hope when i get his age im that smart

[@GunBlue490]

I was much smarter before I began losing brain cells to age.

[@roddunlap1771]

Does the bullet change on the target as the magnification is changed on the scope

[@leadpilled5567]

99% of shooters don’t need FFP scopes. FFP are only good if you’re going to put lots of rounds down range to learn the reticle. FFP scopes are a ton of fun to use on unknown distance long shots ranging off the reticle. There’s a big difference ringing steel and shooting game. I just can’t see myself doing the math without a chance of screwing up in hunting situations but maybe I just a bit more excited than some. In hunting situations I want something simple. I’ve been using the athlon 2-12 argos HMR on my all around rifles and just put a 1-8 on a 450bm. But to each there own. Shoot what ever works for you

[@Quality_Guru]

I do have a question. I just purchased a CZ 457 that will get a 30 MOA pic rail. When considering a scope mounting solution does it matter if I get rings or a one piece mount? I would like to use the scope on more than one rifle. What are the pros and cons of each mounting solution. A big thanks for what you are doing for all of us with sharing your insights and wisdom. Continued blessings to you and your channel.

[@seanoneil277]

I'm certainly not Mr GB, but I'll give you my much-lesser experience. I have several rifles with scopes, two use rings and two use 1-piece mounts. The rings are used on rifles with traditional stocks and traditional bolt gun length picatinny rails. I see no need for a 1-piece mount on such rifles because, in my view & at my level of shooting, there is no need for the extra weight and sturdiness of a 1-piece mount. The rifles on which I use 1-piece mounts are rifles using optics that require the scope to be shifted forward to get proper eye relief -- AR pattern rifles using LPVO and mid-power variable magnification scopes. The 1-piece mount allows for a cantilevered construction to give that forward offset. I don't own a 457 but I'm familiar with them and rings suitable to the weight of the scope would be my suggestion. Light weight scopes intended for rimfire levels of recoil can accept lighter rings. I use a Leupold VX-Freedom Rimfire on my T/CR 22 with Burris Zee rings to give +20 MOA, but the lighter weight Leupold Rifleman rings would have been just fine had I not wanted +20 MOA. Hope that helps -- but I hope Mr GB gives his far more learned view.

[@Quality_Guru]

@@seanoneil277 Greatly appreciate the thorough and detailed feedback. The intel you provided makes a lot of sense. Thank you!

[@seanoneil277]

@@Quality_Guru You're welcome. Just understand that while I'm a geek for information and a pretty fair marksman, I don't have many years of experience trying different scope/mount options. I do help teach marksmanship at Appleseed shoots, and I've seen a decent number of scopes & mounts there, on rimfire and smaller centerfire caliber rifles. I've seen several 457s. Low-ish power lightweight scopes with basic rings is what I see mostly. As Mr GB says in the chapter on magnification, don't go crazy looking for max power. Offhand shooting will be difficult enough at 3x (compared to 1x) because the reticle will dance a whole lot more under magnification.

[@oldArmyVet]

Do you have any good suggestions for binoculars?

[@GunBlue490]

High resolution, which is the most important value of a binocular for seeing distant objects with clarity, comes with a price. Names such as Steiner, Zeiss, Leica, and Swarovski dominate the top end of the binocular market, and they do deliver. Any of their binoculars are terrific, even in their lower priced models. Vortex has recently become a big name in the same price range, but I know little of them, so I'd stick with the familiar German and Austrian labels. Poro prism binoculars are traditional, but more bulky, while roof prism designs are more compact, and cost more. Based on my personal experience, I believe that Steiner has the widest selection of binoculars to suit every wallet. For lower priced binoculars, with very little sacrifice in resolution, you can't go wrong with Nikon, Bushnell, or Leupold. Most importantly, you really need to actually spend some time with a few outdoors and see how they actually feel to you, as there are vast differences in personal comfort. A good dealer will assist you and allow you to test them. For hunting, I would recommend 7 or 8 power as the maximum, with at least a 40mm objective.

[@oldArmyVet]

@@GunBlue490 thank you.

[@waynehendrix4806]

I'm paying attention, but keep focusing on those fine Ruger rings....

[@jerrychambers7267]

Looking for a scope for my AR 5.56 brand and power opinions please

[@jhebert3450]

Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8 x 24. Incredible reticle.

[@endutubecensorship]

No one who thinks long range hunting is ok shows the aftermath of a missed shot. The extra effort/anguish/stress on the hunter and the animal just isn't worth it. Being stealthy and getting closer is a far better skill.

[@12vibaba]

Thanks for mentioning the long range hunting. it is discusting and unethical. If you can shoot a one moa group on a range with no wind. That means you have a group spread on a deer of 6 inches at 600 yards under perfect circumstances. So a good shot placement is pure luck, and that is not how you deal with live animals. It is complete disrespect and those people should not be in the field out hunting.

[@jeanmorin3247]

Your comments about ethical hunting ranges is getting lost on a lot of people in the internet who are constantly talking of long range hunting. 600 yards appears to be common with some. What BS! They probably don't run after the animals that they wound. Almost as bad as some archery heroes. (I must be looking at this video for the fifth time... I'll be back.)

[@DD-gi6kx]

30 seconds in and its clear you don't really know what you are talking about, scope lenses do not see images, lenses create images, there is no image without a lens, each individual lens does invert the image so two lenses and the image is back inverted

[@Noxious47]

Wait the world is upside down? 😂

[@DD-gi6kx]

stop confusing erector lens with zoom optic....sorry people this guy barely knows what he is talking about

[@kemonoyama2084]

So its not ethical to hunt with first focal plane yet mildot is on that plane...hummm

[@GunBlue490]

No, that's not my point. It's not the first focal plane scope or mil radian technology that is unethical. It is the application of them at unethical distances that is. However, while they certainly can be used at ethical distances, the entire design is based on hold-off extended range shooting beyond point blank trajectory. It's rather pointless to clutter up a field of view and obscure moving game with mil dots and stadia lines when one is shooting within the point blank range of a cartridge. Point blank for most modern cartridges is pretty darn far, out to 400 and even 500 yards, and a rear focal plane scope can handle such distances by just holding dead center! The certainty of clean strikes beyond 400 yards on game is very problematic in field conditions, no matter how proficient a shooter is. Game deserves to be taken cleanly, not maimed for the coyotes and buzzards because someone is too lazy and unwilling to hunt closer. As I stated, FFP fading reticles at low power are a contradiction to the need for bold cross hairs in a confusing backdrop of trees.