Hades & The Gods (Story & Theme Discussion)

[@BobExcalibur]

- Xenophanes - “The Ethiops say that their gods are flat-nosed and black, While the Thracians say that theirs have blue eyes and red hair. Yet if cattle or horses or lions had hands and could draw, And could sculpt like men, then the horses would draw their gods Like horses, and cattle like cattle; and each they would shape Bodies of gods in the likeness, each kind, of their own."

[@cloud_and_proud]

So they even had annoying new age cultural imperialists back in the ancient times. Lol.

[@ZontarDow]

Kind of contradicts the idea of a black Athena

[@cloud_and_proud]

@@ZontarDow only if you assume a white perspective for the game.

[@TwoHands95]

This passage explicitly says that each ethnicity had their own Gods that looked like them and acted like them, so it wouldn't make sense if the white European Greeks had black African gods in their pantheon, no?

[@bloodmachine6049]

@@TwoHands95 It absolutely does since they believed those gods were universal. Also the very concept of "white european" simply was not a thing

[@Redem10]

Super Bunnyhop became a mythology channel so progressively I didn't even noticed the change

[@biocode4478]

I was hoping for a shift to politics but I'll take it

[@as1tis]

There's enough politics out there.

[@franciscor390]

@@biocode4478 what more woke politics. You have tons of that.

[@RobinOttens]

@@biocode4478 It's all politics anyway, current political and social beliefs and systems are closely linked to the legacy of the cultures we all descended from. Similarly, any game and the ideas expressed within, are in some way a reflection on the politics of its creators or the environment it was made in. Which is to say, I just want George to throw more mythology at us! His Curiositystream subscription is really paying off.

[@0Enigmatic0]

@@as1tis Everything is politics

[@NachoBearYeah]

George is just looking for videogame excuses to talk about Ancient Greece at this point.

[@lunarbeing4982]

It's true and it's great

[@demirdzaferovic2990]

One must imagine George happy.

[@234ne14]

@@demirdzaferovic2990 We have to for MGS is now gone...

[@Camarada_Cao]

Amem.

[@Ennio444]

One last thing: "The Greeks didn't believe their gods were just the gods of Greece" is not right. The Greeks certainly believed that there more gods than just theirs, and they generally thought that their origin story was the right one, but that said, they thought the gods of other people were real, and that the Greek gods, while capable of acting against other peoples, were not "their" gods too. Sometimes they thought one god must have different aspects or faces, and thence we got Zeus-Ammon or the idea that Mars and Ares were the same god (they're not, they're quite different), and this line of thinking eventually brought to the Platonic, Stoic and Neoplatonic belief that the Gods were all aspects of one divine essence which acted in different guises (the Nous, the Pleroma, whatever) - But at that point, they no longer believed in Athena or Zeus or Hermes as such. Anyway, Christ and Mithras were about to crash the party, so we'll never know.

[@SonicDMonkey]

Hey, could I ask you to elaborate a bit on the Ares and Mars thing? I haven't heard of that before and find it very interesting.

[@Ennio444]

@@SonicDMonkey The Greek and Roman gods are similar in broad attributions because they come from the same stock, but they were given very different characters or "domains". While Ares quickly became an angry god of violence and uncivilised warfare, raw strength and individual might, Mars was the protector of the cattle and the fields, the personification of the good one can do for the community when using force to protect. Of course Mars was also patron of warriors and violence, but he was seen in a definitelt positive light, while Ares was usually not.

[@Kammereer]

@@SonicDMonkey Gods, and the associated religious rituals, changed all the time, as people changed with time and old folklore and traditions got forgotten or updated to fit the times. This is especially true when the gods migrate from culture to culture, such as with Romans adapting Greek gods, or Romans adapting Mithras, or Caribbeans adapting Christian saints into Voodoo loa. Romans in general were big on adapting foreign deities. A standard war ritual for the Romans was bribing foreign gods with sacrifices and altars to persuade them to live in and work with Rome instead of patronizing the peoples they are currently with. For the Greeks, Ares was one of the less liked gods, being the deity associated with anger and mindless war. It's Athena who is the patron of strategy and victory. Ares hits stuff until its dead. For the Romans, Mars moved on to being chief god of the nation, supplanting Zeus/Jupiter. It also has been changed into various aspects to fit the times and political needs of the emperor. For example Augustus created Mars Ultor - Mars the Avenger, symbolizing his defeat of Caesar's assassins and Making Rome Great Again after a string of internal and external turmoils. And when Romans came to Brittain, Mars was adapted by Celts and merged with multiple local deities creating many smaller, very obscure branches.

[@Ravi9A]

That gods give patronage is not to be confused with Tribal exclusive gods.

[@AKidWithNoAttitude]

So now that I've played Hades, I've come to the conclusion that we, the players, are Sisyphus, and Zagreus is our boulder

[@japoonboals718]

I like that

[@petsnrocks]

Another on-brand Greek history analysis from George follow those passions king!

[@CCWYMetroid]

he really called us 'shamelessly horny', and yeah fair enough

[@jadefae]

I love how this comment proves itself lol

[@HomerGunther]

The game itself is pretty horny in places, especially once you reach certain social levels So, it's to be expected

[@zeppie_]

One god in particular in this game makes me feel devious

[@unvexis]

@@zeppie_ You don't even need to specify which one. It's all of them, isn't it?

[@hollowedseas]

@@unvexis I’m guessing they meant Thanatos

[@donbionicle]

You know, their skin tones are so ashen I thought Ares and Athena were supposed to be dead-body gray as opposed to black. Maybe I'm just lucky and so whatever misguided controversy that spawned passed by!

[@tofast4ya]

I thought it was just to add more expression to the art on this rather modern take on ancient greek mythology. The only character where i acknowleded the change was eurydice but i didn't think much of it as the game already takes lots of liberties from the source material. To me this was more of a sit-com/anime/drama version of the classics - but gameified, like when they make comedy versions of grim fairytales or make modern versions of shakespear material.

[@franciscor390]

Careful George will hear you, i think he wants to think of them as full on blek.

[@Lyubimov89]

I never gave too much of a thought to skin color because it's obviously a very modernised retelling instead of a literal interpretation of the myth. In a game where the son of Hades says 'mate" to everyone he comes across and there's a maid medusa, someone's skin color should not be a point of concern.

[@CardboardBlueMage]

I figured it was in reference to their black ceramic style.

[@Dr_Gerbz]

I'm fully in agreement with what has been said above me. Personally, I only realized Athena was black after I saw an article mention it. They're all such great characters, so very well written and every single voice actor has done an incredible job; who cares about the skin?

[@abc-oq7dt]

The Ceasar section I disagree with being all about gods. He was essentially painting a PR Picture to those back in Rome that the peoples of Gaul were just like us. This was being done because as we all know Ceasar spent give or take a decade marching around Gaul and slowly forming it into a new province of the Empire. When he called gods mercury and venus he was looking at what gods they had and converted them across. So the Gaulic people never had a Mercury but would have had a god kinda sorta similar. Since we have no actual evidence as to what these people believed and because Gaul itself waant unified in even a tiny way its been argued and id agree that actually alll the different parts may have had all their own versions of all the gods that did their own wee thing. I adore ancient history and by mentioning the bauld adulterous whore himself you more or less made me write this.

[@koolets3788]

"The Struggle itself towards the height is enough to fill a man's heart. One must imagine Sisyphus happy" Albert Camus

[@RastafarianPilgrim]

Albert Camus aka Daddy

[@GarrettX001]

@@RastafarianPilgrim Gross.

[@SanDeygo]

Exactly what I thought when I saw him in game and his attitude

[@nastrael]

Fun fact: when the Romans came into contact with the Germanic tribes the God they coopted as the equivalent of Mercury was mfing Odin of all things.

[@CollinBuckman]

And they thought Thor was Hercules, and Tyr was Mars

[@Sonlirain]

@@CollinBuckman To be frank Thor is pretty similar to Hercules all things considered. He did go on all those weird quests and crossdressed at least once.

[@MrTempestilence]

Mercury being Odin makes sense. Both carry staffs/spears, both are associated with wings and messengers, both are tricksters, etc.

[@PejmanMan]

@@CollinBuckman to be fair tyr is literally an ancient Iranian word for mars, and whom the Romans would have interacted with. The rest tho, lmao

[@CollinBuckman]

@@PejmanMan I think it's more because Tyr and Mars were both worshipped as gods of war and law, while Thor and Hercules were both big buff gods famous for beating people up a lot lol

[@ArthurDent_42]

I've not heard a single complaint about black Gods in the game at all. I didn't even notice it, nor did I care, it's a good game, that's all that matters.

[@ZontarDow]

It was probably a primer since the latest adaptation of Troy had a mostly black cast and Greeks where furious at that cultural imperialism by the people who made it

[@policesquad]

@@ZontarDow Which adaptation? Total War?

[@ZeNewk]

@@policesquad It's this one I reckon "Troy: Fall of a City" (3.8/10 on IMDB)

[@icyjiub2228]

@@ZontarDow >cultural imperialism Is this the replacement for "Cultural Marxism" because now everyone knows it's a meaningless buzzword made for people still stuck in the 2015 gamergate mind prison. In this case the "blackwashing" is bound up in so much subjectivism that George's statements preachiness gets diluted to nothing. As for the show? Just don't watch it and stop going on 4chan.

[@ArthurDent_42]

@@icyjiub2228 "...a meaningless buzzword made for people still stuck in the 2015 gamergate mind." Is this projection?

[@acidseltzer7747]

I knew he'd be on this, he's such a mark for Greece

[@riddlemethat5597]

Something that needs to be said about Hades is how excellent the quality of the game was even during Early Access. There were placeholder phantoms for characters whose designs were not yet decided or complete, but the game, the story, and the incredible themes of all the Gods and Goddesses present were already solid. The update schedule and the content that came with it was something to genuinely look forward to, whenever you finally hit the ceiling of what the game had to offer at the time. It honestly made the whole game more of a journey, rather than an endless Game as a Service disguised as an "Early Access," that so many companies seem to at least try to maintain. The roadmap of Hades has a clear, beginning, middle and end, which is a goddamn miracle in this industry these days. Supergiant is a stellar developer with a golden pedigree, at this point, and while I'm sure they're all looking forward to taking a break and their time to come up with their next project, I will most assuredly be here when it's ready.

[@amilyester]

I'm just praying someone like MS doesn't buy them up but I don't think they'd ever say yes or anything.

[@Sorain1]

@@amilyester I think the winning strategy with that is to have everyone in the company agree to say yes, take the money and then leave to make a new company with said money. You get MS's money, they get the IP they want to drive to ruin, you keep your ability to make your art. Only the name changes really. Mind you, I imagine MS has a lot of BS setup to avoid that exact scenario but it doesn't mean I don't wish it could be so.

[@stan4143]

Seeing the deep dive youve been making of how deeply the ancient worlds framework still is present only makes me wish for more imaginative fiction and even a reality where that same level of progression could have been experienced by other cultures with vastly different points of reference (incans, aztec, sub saharan africa)

[@EmeraldLavigne]

Drrrrr your da reel racism cuz um

[@stan4143]

@@EmeraldLavigne i dont understand, but im curious to hear what your perspective is on the topic though

[@stan4143]

@@EmeraldLavigne i reread it and I think i got it 👍👌🖖

[@ganondorf66]

Your video's have a kind of magic to them that makes me want to play every game you feature

[@NurseValentineSG]

"My fellow americans." ...B-but I'm german...

[@RobinOttens]

* cries in Dutch *

[@Reubel]

"Citizens of America... ... ... ...and citizens of the world."

[@PsychOsmosis]

@@Reubel In the end, he just says "my fellow americans" though. That's what OP is referencing.

[@Reubel]

@@PsychOsmosis Oh, I know. I was just adding a (somewhat modified) quote from one of Georges fellow americans, one Barack Obama (more precisely: some of the opening lines from mr. former president of the US of A:s 2009 Nobel peace prize acceptance speech), to be funny. (I.e. to lightly poke fun at the America First-attitude that both men showcased with their respective wording. This, the poking that is, is, after all, the chief national sport over here in Europe-land :D ).

[@raz1572]

Not anymore, welcome fellow American. You can pick up your gun and deisel truck at your leisure.

[@baronvonskeltal7550]

I watched just a couple minutes of this video on its release and decided I wanted to try the game out first. After nearly two months of playing nothing but Hades and loving every second of it I think I can finally finish this video. Thanks George.

[@Cool30Comics]

The way I’ve dealt with existentialism is to remember that there’ll be bad times, but spring always comes. The play might be the same, but an actor gives his best every night to enrich other people’s lives.

[@RobinOttens]

Was afraid to watch this for fear of spoilers. But dang I'm glad I watched it anyway. Zero spoilers, a ton of fascinating background on the myths and culture that Hades is riffing on instead. Now I'm even more excited to play this game. This was super interesting. Super Bunnyhop history lessons are the best history lessons.

[@PirateArr]

I dunno if this was the intention but at 5:15 this style of pottery depicted men as black and women as white, pretty often. Not a race thing

[@PirateArr]

Also on a different tangent I always found it awesome that there are elephants mentioned in the Iliad when the Ethiopians arrive

[@RowbotMaster]

Maybe men would usually be more tanned than women due to women staying inside more often

[@metallicsnake.]

Z @@PirateArr

[@Jose-se9pu]

"To keep going, we must imagine ourselves happy" - George Weidman, 2020

[@bangasou12]

how deep

[@TheGuwrovsky]

Weidman for President!

[@Lord_Deimos]

We must become lotus eaters.

[@ultramango1337]

wonder when he'll start wearing coats and smoke an unhealthy amount of cigarettes

[@RaccoonGrrrl]

Zagreus also fit another Camus quote : "T rebel, therefore I exist"

[@RaidsEpicly]

I realized 3 minutes in this game was by supergiant and bought it immediately. No idea how I didn't hear they were making a new game!

[@RodTejada502]

You should check the NoClip's docu-series on how they developed the game, here on YT

[@policesquad]

It came out in 2018 as an Epic exclusive, it only hit Steam Early Access in December 2019. Now, it is finally finished and I'm finding it hard to get back into the game. It is a great game but it is now dull after 323 hours.

[@alexanderfarmer7315]

They're supposed to look black? I honestly thought they were designed to look like carved stone. Like special god stone or something.

[@CHENEYMANIA]

Lol George is reading too far in to it

[@bruhbruh4329]

You know that english teacher that thought every cigar pen and curtain had a hidden meaning?

[@Shinigami13133]

I got that vibe from Athena too, it didn't even register to me that she was "black" I was just like "ooh, she's got stoney skin!"

[@jonathanredacted3245]

With Athena maybe, but dionysis and ares both have immistakebly dark brown skin

[@Blizzic]

Can’t wait to come back and watch this once I finally escape.

[@policesquad]

Have you not heard? "There is no escape."

[@jaddy72]

@@policesquad nice try, HADES

[@BigBoss-sm9xj]

Blizzic good vids man

[@MrDalisclock]

If it makes you feel better, it doesn't spoil anything you wouldn't know about after a few hours

[@patrickguerin9806]

Put the ad in the middle maybe? i got chills at your ending line about imagining ourselves happy and i was hoping to sit and wallow in my own self-reflection for a brief moment but before the music had even shifted I was being sold a product. I get that that's youtube, make that money son, but there's gotta be a better place to put these sponsorships. You're making great art my friend, keep it up.

[@kiloalphahotel5354]

Thanks for the vid. Always great.

[@Unrea6lMe]

So there's an interesting tangential theme I noticed after beating the main story of Hades and progressing the relationships with all the characters through conversations and gifts. Through hard work and perseverance, you can change things for the better. In the case of Hades, you're usually fixing peoples relationships. So many characters seem consigned to their fate, firmly believing things can't change or that it isn't worth changing. It takes Zagreus talking to people on either side of the relationship (and fighting through the underworld to get there) for things to change. You can't ever change what happened and what people have experienced, but things can change for the better if both sides are willing to work for it. I can count at least seven relationships in the game where this is a thing. Whether or not this is true in real life is up for debate, but it's definitely something I noticed in the game.

[@Sorain1]

One thing that is sure about that in relation to real life: if no effort is made to change it for the better, it won't do so on it's own.

[@thesteamguy6171]

While i dont dislike you talking about greek mythology and existensialism, it seems that it has nothing to do with the game.

[@oplinger]

Found the idiot

[@thesteamguy6171]

@@oplinger Glad to know you found yourself.

[@policesquad]

@@oplinger That's uncalled for.

[@BaneDane_JB]

He can never actually escape hell and the boulder can never be pushed up the hill, but we can still find meaning in trying. That's the point of mentioning existentialism in the vid, or interpreting it in the game, as George relates it to his own experiences.

[@Msoulwing]

You are quite correct, other than the bit about how the gods are depicted, the video careens off into exploring the actual myths rather than the game's story and themes. Still a good video but you could take Hades out of it completely and almost nothing would change.

[@12kwh]

Really cool to see you channel your reading and current history fascination into these videos. This is a great overview of greek culture! (From someone with a degree in classics here) Ton’s of luck to have a big budget game about the greek bronze age release shortly before this one, so you could get this all out in chronological order. Good stuff!

[@buttholesurfer1266]

How's that degree serving you

[@12kwh]

@@buttholesurfer1266 really terribly. Don’t make the same mistake

[@buttholesurfer1266]

@@12kwh ha no surprises here

[@willa5891]

George, just wanted to say how much I love your content. Always been a huge fan.

[@CaptainRasmot]

So, what you're saying/getting at; is that the ancient greek world was literally a giant collage of "why are we here? Just to suffer??"

[@Zenju__]

That's not the ancient Greek world view, but it appears to be George's at the moment of writing.

[@CaptainRasmot]

@@Zenju__ . . . yeah, that's a mood if i ever did feel one

[@MrDalisclock]

@@Zenju__ well, it is 2020. Most of us can probably relate

[@caleb1031]

Philosophers were basically celebrities in ancient Greece, as such the the Greek culture cannot be defined by a single philosophy. That being said the nature, and value of suffering is a fundamental subset of philosophy. Stoicism was a popular Greek philosophy to deal with suffering, Hedonism is another.

[@buttholesurfer1266]

No, it's George's projection lol

[@brendanmckenna7613]

Cant watch this fully because i havent fully completed the story, but now im motivated to so i can watch more of your content. Thanks for the boost

[@FirefoxisredExplorerisblueGoog]

The Smithsonian article mentions that 3/4 of the hand prints were probably female and that the method used to determine this had a 60% accuracy. This doesn't actually mean that they were _painted_ by women, just that the hands depicted were 3/4 x 0.6 female. Your way of phrasing it is disingenuous.

[@eleccy]

Never let facts get in the way of a narrative. It's the KZbin way!

[@robertnomok9750]

Entire video is like that. He imagined whole Athena black debacle just to make himself look good afterwards.

[@Lolfire]

Hey man, just thought I'd let you know that I've been watching your videos for like, almost 7 years now and I just wanna say thanks for putting out consistently quality content. I truly hope your channel blows up and you get the recognition you deserve.

[@masondarden2423]

That history degree really paying off

[@empatheticrambo4890]

This gave me so much more to think about regarding these old “classical” bits of history that nobody bothered to tell me during school

[@Y0UT0PIA]

looking through the catalogue and archive on /v/, 99% of the threads are overwhelmingly positive. where is this "controversy" supposed to have taken place?

[@dumbiepatch]

I know there were more complainers on twitter, but this game has had such a positive reception that they were drowned out. Same with on /v/

[@Y0UT0PIA]

@@dumbiepatch Makes sense. Twitter thrives off polarization and breeds all kinds of insanity, because with the character limit and the way the interface works it's practically impossible to offer an effective rebuttal to slogans, paroles and standardized political talking points. Imo its discourse is not representative of anyone other than "people who spend too much time on twitter". I wish we would just stop paying attention to it.

[@missingclover]

@@dumbiepatch Thats like making a 15 minute video complaining about how much trash there is in the trash bin.

[@Rynewulf]

Well there are lots of comments here: mention a character with anything other than snow white skin in a video game and suddenly they come running apparently

[@buttholesurfer1266]

Why would you still go on /v/? Boards culture died long ago, it's reddit town now

[@AnonyMap1]

Oi KZbin this is like my favorite channel why didn’t you tell me this video came out

[@Kakashiownsyou]

Good to hear your voice again, man.

[@Vulpes89]

There has been literally no controversy that Athena and Ares have black skin, I'm not sure where you got that from. They're gods; they can look however they wish. BTW, they have dark skin but their facial features are very caucasian. It's like they are a photo negative or carved of dark stone. It makes them more otherworldly

[@icyjiub2228]

Literally the only reason why 4chan isn't bitching up a storm is because they're too busy jerking off to the characters.

[@Healermain15]

It's the usual nonsense from racist Gamers TM with Concerns about Historical Accuracy.

[@d3nyd]

I really dig this essay, man. Probably one of the most constructive ways to get things off your chest I've ever seen and heard. It must have been cathartic to write, record, and release this. Good on you, brother.

[@johnconnorpliskin7184]

Amazing work as always George. Ancient history is so fascinating. Especially when you realize how much of it shaped the modern world.

[@Human1337]

I've missed you!

[@Kmaaq]

I just started playing this game and I didn’t expect to like this much. There’s so much effort put into it and you can’t tell by watching footage of the game, you need to play it for at least an hour to start to see it. I have been waiting for more people to make videosbon it because its influence in youtube is limited atm.

[@brunomiiguel]

SuperBunnyhop videos that include real history are by far my favourites.

[@kjarrij]

Thanks for the video, quality content as usual!

[@Ennio444]

I agree with the "black people are present in Greek mythology", but using red figures pottery to justify it is... not ok. In red figure vases, people are black or white regardless of who they're supposed to be, it's a stylised art choice, not a representation of black or white ness. We know that because plenty of times Achilles or Odysseus are shown as black or white, regardless of context.

[@sailren179]

jsyk george you are the greatest content creator on youtube

[@ilikecookies230]

I just realized that the war they were talking about during the game was the Trojan war

[@deathbefallsyou]

Can that be right? The war is ongoing from what I remember from the dialogue (unless I skimmed over it too fast), and Achilles fought and died in that war. Based on dialogue with him (and the fact that he trained Zagreus) he’s been in the underworld for a long time, so the Trojan War has been long over.

[@yourineeven8457]

Achilles is in the underworld and what is time really in the underworld? He could be there for 10000 years or 10 seconds for all we know.

[@ilikecookies230]

@St. Justice I do remember hearing that the Trojan war was a long one but don’t quote me on that one

[@deathbefallsyou]

ilikecookies230 ooo yeah that’s right, makes sense now

[@MidnightArctic]

They also explicitly state that Achilles in game is the hero of the Trojan War. They state that if you talk to Achilles enough that other characters or gods comment on you talking to him. Or using the spear enough

[@xandermagne2141]

George I felt myself settling in for a bad night, with this sense of emptiness that sometimes haunts my mind where I don’t truly feel alive. Somehow, you’ve cheered me up out of this abyss by this topic. Sometimes it feels like all the mysteries have been solved and there’s just this wall to bounce off of over and over again in terms of learning stuff. I used to really love perusing wikipedia or finding history books in my childhood and just... looking at everything. Now, it’s like the patterns just repeat so the meaning of discovery has bled out, withered white. It’s videos like yours that really stir the ancient sensibility of discovery for me. Thank you.

[@Inogat]

All your videos are so very interesting! Love the Camus quote, if you haven't I recommend most of his books, in France we often read them in schools. They are a bit grim but deeply interesting and well written!

[@danylokoval6922]

Wow. What an impressive quote “we must imagine ourselves happy”! Who coined it? Was it you, Bunnyhop? That’s cool.

[@TheeMFGr0uch]

Albert Camus on his Essay named "The Myth of Sisyphus". Great read, highly recommend it if you're at all interested in philosophy.

[@Junki20000]

This channel is basically just "History and Mythology in Video Games" now and I'm all here for it

[@TheAtlasReview]

I think the final note is unjustified, although its understandable why you feel that way. The world may SEEM more corrupt, warlike, hostile and miserable than ever, but that isn't true at all. In the world of mass media, the innate human negativity bias is constantly being fed, but the vast majority of the world is, by every measure, better than it was a few years ago. And its only going to improve, we should take time to remind ourselves of that. You don't need to imagine that the world is improving. You need only look beyond the headlines.

[@tomasvallecillo9885]

Whatever you need to tell yourself to cope with the actual unfolding of events. I would much more recommend taking actions necessary to make the world a better place, than pretend that a positive future is inevitable.

[@TheAtlasReview]

@@tomasvallecillo9885 You can take whatever action you want, man. Just know that the data shows that the world is trending towards being safer, freer, more prosperous and more equal than ever before, even if it doesn't feel that way. It may dip into bad periods, but this trend is pretty concrete.

[@tomasvallecillo9885]

@@TheAtlasReview With all respect, vaguely waving to the concept of "The data" proving your point isn't proof of much. Isn't it a bit arrogant to tell everyone to ignore a set of facts for another set of facts, just because one of those sets of facts mean that things aren't going well? If it's your way of dealing with the anxiety of a climate crisis that we continue not to address, an economy that is quickly consolidating at the very top, with political and economic institutions that refuse to acknowledge any reform, then go ahead. Trends towards an improving quality of life is not a guarantee. Pretending everything is fine, is another day that you can be fine not doing anything about very real crises that may or may not occur in your lifetime. EDIT: Sorry, rereading this, it sounds pretty harsh. I understand what you're saying, but it is belittling to those who are trying to do something about the future. Hopefully you can see where I'm coming from.

[@TheAtlasReview]

@@tomasvallecillo9885 I didn't come with sources prepared because I didn't expect this would be contentious. But HumanProgress is a great place to start. Even if you live somewhere that is quite objectively getting worse - like Turkey, or Hong Kong - it might lift your mood to consider that it is probably just a temporary downturn on a generally upwards-trajectory. I'm not telling you to stop fighting for change or anything like that. If people became complacent, the data I'm talking about would likely start to slip. We aren't a utopia yet, and there's still work to do. All I'm saying is that people shouldn't let themselves become depressed by the gloom, and that if they find that happening to themselves then it might be heartening to look at the improvements that are being made. I think we've just had some miscommunication. All the best.

[@tomasvallecillo9885]

@@TheAtlasReview It's a glass half-full vs. half-empty conversation, kinda. Some people are motivated by pessimism, and some optimism. Different approaches.

[@caseyrau]

I can’t afford to buy this game under quarantine, but from footage I’ve watched, I love that Sisyphus IS happy; he seems like a cheerful and kind guy.

[@jmh8817]

I never thought of greek mythology as proto existentialism but that makes perfect sense and it is fucking genius. Excellent piece.

[@hazardousjazzgasm129]

It's a rephrasing of Camus' famous argument

[@kylemccoymusic4202]

As someone who also went on a long crazy bike tour, you convinced me play Death Stranding (which I adored). As someone who is legit getting a Myth of Sisyphus tattoo... You've convinced me to play Hades.

[@helios2939]

I never once thought about Athena's skin color. Maybe because I'm not American and my brain is not melted from discussion about race. In fact the only time I've seen it discussed was when a journalist had to shove the fact that she's a person of color like it's an "achievement"

[@DylanJo123]

Its not something most people here care about either. Its just a vocal minority that gets a lot of screen time and attention

[@cleit1802]

@@DylanJo123 nah. race IS a huge thing in the USA. People love talking about it and victimizing on it.

[@DylanJo123]

@@cleit1802 I must be lucky where i live then

[@orijimi]

It's bizarre. About 10 minutes ago I just realized I hadn't seen a video of yours show up in my notifications in forever, wondering if you were even still around. And I found out my notifications were set to 'Personalized', whatever that means, and changed it. And voila, minutes later.

[@Mac_Omegaly]

I had a simular problem. I thought the channel was dead. I last tunned in at the beginning of the year.

[@Y0UT0PIA]

ah yes, "personalized" in the sense that youtube decides what you should be notified for. that's some funny newspeak.

[@avi_rivera]

I have to watch your videos several times to catch all the little ... insights you drop. Thank you for what you do.

[@jewthulhu]

Gosh dang you do good work

[@legojayman]

Great video as always! One of the things I've learned as I have learned more history is that it seems crazy now, but it always has been. What we are going through is not different from what so many people have always gone through throughout history.

[@kendoiron8015]

another great deep dive well beyond the game. Not knowing what insights George brings is all the more the reason to watch.

[@qadamov]

Best rouguelite ever. Supergiant have outdone themselves.

[@Lazypackmule]

Man, 2016 really is the gift that just keeps on giving

[@fortunatesoul12]

I am glad you found some solace in videogames and history, George. Keep up the good work

[@sedthh]

you deserve much more views man

[@klaussone]

I think there are good reason for the decline in its viewership in the last 2 years. Maybe the hint of pretentiousness. Maybe the occasional political bias. Can't really pin point it. But whatever its is its on a slow burn downhill.

[@real9270]

How does someone who feels so deeply compelled by the themes of this game make half of his video essay about Athena being black? It's like he just can't pick between serious analysis and dunking on one dude he saw on /v/.

[@kieranhurst8543]

The fact you focus on that point betrays how racist you really are

[@raf.raf.]

Damn, now I gotta play this before watching

[@BDS-ACAB]

Well done. Thanks for tieing it all together

[@TheAtlasReview]

I don't mind them showing the gods as ethnically diverse, my complaint is that they chose the wrong gods. For example, Artemis was a god that the Greeks likely adopted from "Libyan" peoples, so it is fair to assume she would have African features. Athena, though, was probably as white as sliced bread. That said, I do like the shapeshifting explanation to why they appear the way they do.

[@missingclover]

Yep... that just drives the point for me that the skin colors were just an aesthetic choice and George going so into detail about an explanation was just odd.

[@vosdraug4628]

Great commentary, really makes me want to try out the game.

[@joeblazer3820]

I wasn’t expecting a Camus reference. But hot damn did it hit me like a boulder going back down a hill.

[@Yaver14]

You bastard, you genius.

[@captainsynonym]

Brilliant as ever, thank you for this

[@Loalrikowki]

Athena and Ares' coloration seemed to evoke the dark tones used in Greek pottery and so forth. Eurydice scans more as a black-coded character to me, and she's half a tree.

[@Shinigami13133]

Honestly, yeah. There isn't any real racial coding with the Olympians at all. And I think Eurydice only has so much coding with her because she's kinda anachronistic compared to everyone else besides maybe Zag, so it's easier to read those kind of elements into her.

[@bennymountain1]

Nice one, George.

[@suturesunder3465]

I won't lie, this, in comparison to other videos on here, seems like a meandering one sided perspective. Subjective interpretations are presented as accepted fact or I can't really follow the trail of reasoning that verifies the title of the video. This is cynical of me to say, but I feel like this video was more a need to self validate feelings of dispair brought on by a personsal overindulgence in political media. It's like someone whose head is stuck in the weeds trying to explain to themselves that they're lost in the forest when they might just benefit from pulling their head out for a bit.

[@BobExcalibur]

Jesus being interpreted by European artists as white: Problematic

[@missingclover]

It's amazing how you spot on summarized a 15 minute video in two paragraphs.

[@buttholesurfer1266]

That's pretty much this channel in a nutshell, George thinks he's way smarter than he actually is. He's a pseud in general

[@suturesunder3465]

@@buttholesurfer1266 I wouldn't go that far, typically I enjoy the reads in these videos and even if I don't entirely agree I respect George's nuanced perspective. It's just to me, in this video, it seems more like an attempt at trying to construct a poetic reading around sigh summoningly timely and mundane issues. He's looking to mythology to explain why sensational politics makes him sad when maybe he should look at Diocleation retiring to farm cabbages and figure there's a point where you need to take a break from it.

[@buttholesurfer1266]

@@suturesunder3465 nah this vid is just his usual shtik, but normally they are written much better

[@Josephrobrose]

This is a amazing video. thank you.

[@lunarbeing4982]

Great topic, thank you George!

[@BiggusFroggus]

Nice vid georgy!

[@Shadowonshadows]

Great video, m8! Hang in there

[@Zeroharpe]

You don't need to even explain why a couple of the gods have darker complexions. It's all stylized artistic expression. The designers made what they felt looked good for the design, and thats all.

[@WickedKnightAlbel]

And yet some people get mad from simply seeing black people in things

[@robertnomok9750]

@@WickedKnightAlbel Raping ancient culture to push BLM agenda is a pathetic way to present your case. USA boys are out of controls

[@gaddag1477]

robert nomok Molding previous systems and culture to make it fit current times is how culture changes.

[@Zeroharpe]

Oh no I started a culture war

[@robertnomok9750]

@@gaddag1477 Culture of different nature that you changed to push agenda? I smell hypocrisy considering whining about cultural apropriation same crowd like to do.

[@Chimera-man-man]

Watchin a cheeky new Supper Bunny Op video during me lunch break noice innit

[@Uchikomatical]

Genuinely confused by your interpretation/justification of Athena being black. Going by your logic, if Greek Gods were reinterpreted by conquered peoples for their theological and representational needs, then why wouldn't Athena be interpreted as being white? Seeing as that's the race of the Greek peoples themselves? If you're going to draw on Julius Ceasar's interpretation of Gallic mythology then you surely must appreciate that in literally every depiction of statues and mosaics their Roman gods are white (or are depicted with white features). For that matter, so are the Greeks, with the exception of pottery where they worked with limited pigments, or their pigments changed over time

[@eleccy]

Yep. In a further irony to the situation, Bunnyhop is doing the same thing. He's from a multiethnic society so he's choosing to reinterpret the gods to his own perceptions, rather than the Greeks. Irony abounds!

[@NeverSaySandwich1]

Stop it dude you're making too much sense and taking away George's SJW brownie points

[@oisinobroin442]

@@eleccy It's not ironic, in fact it supports George's point. The game is a product of present game developers, and as such views the Greek gods through the cultural lens of today, just as the Greeks acknowledged that their own depictions of their gods were a reflection of their own culture.

[@eleccy]

​@@oisinobroin442 That may well be true but it can still be ironic. George refers, or at least attempts to interpret pottery as a factual basis for his claims. It's ironic to me that this is his approach given that he then calls the Roman use of the same methods as akin to imperialism and the twisting of facts to keep an empire together. On an unrelated note, I don't think a single character in the game would fit the modern interpretation of a black person (possibly Eurydice but her fro is a shrub!), but I wouldn't care if they did. I also haven't seen any notable rejection of the supposedly black gods in the games, other than a few mostly disregarded comments on a few youtube videos. I just find it odd the need to look at pottery when just claiming reinterpretation is enough for me and most people.

[@oisinobroin442]

@@eleccy Yeah the more I read the comments here the more I realise there was some controversy around the release of the game. Before this video the only other exposure I had to it was skipping through a pretty positive endorsement of the gameplay, mechanics, polish etc, and I never gave second thought to the representation of the cast. Unfortunately the loudest voices are the ones that get addressed, and these days people kick up a fuss over black people in video games because of SJWs or some other bogeymen (not accusing you of doing so, but even in this thread someone has brought them up) when as you said there are simpler answers like reinterpretation through a modern lens, or even that the devs just wanted to. Anyway, happy trails! (Edited out a typo)

[@Doctor-Infinite]

Today is a good day The rabbit man uploads once more

[@Gilgidane]

George uploads and I drop everything I'm doing to watch immediately

[@Anonlyso]

11:48 "So wait, is Greek Theology just Proto-Existentialism?" "It always was" Also, I know a ton of this is more the historical themes of struggle, self-realization and possibly improvement, if not simply self-acceptance of fate, very loosely analagous to the Rogue-like nature of Hades, but I kinda wanna know what George actually thought about the game itself

[@RobinOttens]

I assume he likes it. But I too would have liked at least some mention of how he felt the game deals with these themes and if it's good in that regard. Again, I assume it is.

[@PsychOsmosis]

With a 98% positive score on Steam (take a look at the *noclip* documentary on the game's creation), I'm pretty sure almost everybody loves this game, George included.

[@zeppie_]

Looking at the gameplay, he’s maxed out at least 2 relics, and has ‘hiscovered’ patroclus’ name, so from than we can reasonably deduce that he’s played this game for a bit at least

[@Northreyar7314]

Probably will have to listen to the podcast to find out. Dad and Sons has definitely become the mainline George content since this channel gets updated for what if feels like once every 2 months

[@heyhonpuds]

I’m not American.

[@yserareborn]

Stop bragging.

[@bennymountain1]

You are American where it matters. Right there.

[@Louis83TV]

I missed you, George!

[@LoveXKnife]

Dammit, I'm having trouble beating a run and I'm gonna have to go do that right now to watch your video

[@Apocolovids]

Boy, I caught it early this time.

[@aaronmarko]

That's what she said...about COVID.

[@travpots6318]

Good job

[@ThatFeelBr0]

Ha, joke's on you Bunnyman, I don't have lockdown depression, I was depressed way before the quarantine started.

[@marcustimothymontaos3688]

I love this video, and the turn of your interest to Greek Mythology. I think you missed a chance to mention Orpheus in your essay. If I'm not mistaken, Orpheus was the God of Poetry and Songs to the Greeks, although several accounts said that he existed in the flesh (with Plato saying otherwise). Orpheus could be a predecessor to Sisyphus and Achilles. His misery, his own eternal recurrence, is written in a subtle way, as if to coincide with Eurydice's scant appearance in the myth's earlier form (her only spoken dialouge is a goodbye to Orpheus as she's taken back into the Underworld). In Persona 3 Portable, his story is retold. This time, he, as the persona of the main character, looks forward to Nyx, the mother of Thanatos, Hypnos, and Erebus; Death, Sleep, and Darkness respectively. The MC reunites with the Eurydice with Nyx, as death is associated with women and mothers more than men, as the state before life in this world is the womb, the warm Chaos of a universe. Dying to Nyx is a return to the embrace of his love. This might sound menacing, but the game builds it as a positive thing. Despite its exploitative imagery of suicide the game delivers an endearing and hopeful message of trying to live to the fullest even so. Also. I'd like to hear your opinion on Nietzche's The Birth of Tragedy. Similar to the sentiment of your essay, Nietszche assumed in that book that the Greeks had struck a balance between the beauty of the world and the tragedy of living in it; what makes the world tragic is its beauty. Thus a poetics that affirms suffering at the face of an indifferent world. How the gods stood more like impersonable forces of nature despite resembling man's form. This is echoed by Albert Camus in one of his essays (Summer on Algiers? I can't remember).

[@MonkSupra]

Bruh as soon as i started this game, I was like “I can’t wait for a superbunnyhop video”

[@volpe2077]

If you wanna keep talking about Mythology, talk about the La-Mulana games! Those are good :D

[@centipede9467]

Hey did you research all this incredibly interesting info about greek mythology before or after you played this game? Also is this a good game for binding of Isaac fans? Oh and as someone who’s read the Odyssey, is the Iliad or any other ancient greek texts worth reading?

[@UnstopablePatrik]

The Illiad is awesome. It reads like an e-sport battle report.

[@theundeadgentleman4998]

He's been on a Greek mythology trip for a while now, I _think_ it started back when he was playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey with a copy of the actual Odyssey to read during his playthrough.

[@Abon666]

You should definitely read the Iliad since the Oddyssey is essentially a sequel to it and both the Greeks and Roman's held the Iliad in higher regard.

[@mrfreddorenton]

I've never seen an exploration of greek mythology through the sociology and social psychology of the times before, and yet it makes so much sense.