Hadith: What orientalists and modernists get wrong - with Dr Jonathan Brown

Dr Jonathan Brown joins us this week to engage in an in-depth discussion about the Hadith corpus and why contemporary arguments forwarded by orientalists and modernists lack rigour. He takes us on a journey of informed exploration of some of the key personalities and thinkers of early Islam and the lengths they went through to determine the veracity of a tradition attributed to the Messenger of Allah (saw).
His books include The Canonization of al-Bukhari and Muslim: The Formation and Function of the Sunni Hadith Canon, Hadith: Muhammad’s Legacy in the Medieval and Modern World (Oneworld, 2009) and His most recent book, Misquoting Muhammad: The Challenges and Choices of Interpreting the Prophet’s Legacy (Oneworld, 2014), was named one of the top books on religion in 2014 by the Independent. He is the Alwaleed bin Talal Chair of Islamic Civilization in the School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University.
As always, you can comment your thoughts below.
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#TheThinkingMuslimPodcast
The Thinking Muslim Podcast Episode 86
0:00 - 1:16 Introduction
1:16 - 10:19 Definition of Hadith and its value in Islam
10:19 - 13:20 Does the Quran and Sunnah have equal precedence?
13:20 - 17:09 Why Sunnah of the Prophet is important
17:09 - 24:14 Quran without Sunnah; Sunnah in Islamic law
24:14 - 24:43 Does the Quran authorize the Sunnah?
24:43 - 27:16 What is the Sunnah?
27:16 - 29:29 Connection between the Sunnah as a source of Shariah and as a rule of action
29:29 - 30:07 Do Hanafis regard the Wajib as a lesser obligation than Fardh?
30:07 - 39:19 Are sunnah and hadith synonyms? How to know the Prophet's Sunnah?
39:19 - 53:48 Hadith collection in the first 200 years after the Prophet, why did Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim compile and verify Hadiths?
53:48 - 55:28 The emergence of Hadith criticism based on isnad
55:28 - 59:48 Arrangement of Hadith books topic-wise and with complete isnad to Prophet Muhammad
59:48 - 1:06:21 Did the Hadith compilers appeal to the ruling class?
1:06:31 - 1:10:51 What blinds Western scholars to diverse assumptions about history?
1:10:51 - 1:16:33 How does a questionable Hadith not raise serious issues in usage?
1:16:33 - 1:39:52 The criteria for determining the authenticity of a Hadith
1:39:52 - 1:48:13 Relationship between a Hadith scholar and a Jurist (Muhaddith and a Mujtahid)
1:48:13 - 1:56:48 Comments on Abu Hurairah's Hadith reports as misogynistic
1:56:48 - 2:03:40 Islamic law on a person’s rejection of Hadith
2:03:40 - 2:03:56 Additional resources

[@BloggingTheology]

Very juicy! Outstanding podcast.

[@abdullahsabawi1202]

PW in the house y’all

[@jeroenschilder9463]

Because of the title and the first minute teaser, I thought the podcast would go much deeper and more specifically into, say, the recent study of an 'orientalist' like Dr. Little about the hadith regarding the age of Aicha ra at the time of marriage. A more specific, more in depth explanation of that from the 'traditional' point of view would have been very valuable, I look forward to that in depth from Dr. Brown. 🤲 maybe something for a follow-up @TheThinkingMuslim or @BloggingTheology? 🫶

[@faizannazrawi2657]

😇

[@paulthomas281]

@@jeroenschilder9463 Dr. Little isn't an Orientalist.

[@aqe7914]

@@paulthomas281 Who are his mentors?

[@rehanzafar5445]

Very informative. I really like the podcast host. He tries his best to not interrupt and give Dr Brown enormous time to explain things. I have watched plenty of podcasts but the way he engages with guest is fantastic.

[@Defendisrael-ig4ur]

Mr jalal and his team we Israelis would like to thank you for bringing on Jonathan brown to your podcast He's huge help to us in destroying Islam He's supports freedom of speech to insult prophet Muhammad pbuh but remember you can't insult us Zionists or boycott us in America otherwise you are antisemite and will face legal consequences Thanks again Mr jalal and his team knowingly or unknowingly helping us to destroy islam

[@AfiaIbnat1]

Jazak Allah khair to you both. I learnt a lot from this conversation and I can't believe time flew by so quickly! I didn't want it to end. In shaa Allah you guys can have another conversation soon

[@iyadhilal5011]

Thanks for both of you. Very informative

[@snakejuce]

Nice to see you taking more initiative on this channel my dear brother. Keep it genuine and pragmatic iA.

[@MilkyWay-tk5rm]

I really appreciate Br.Muhammed and Dr.Brown for having such a wonderful podcast. I believe, Dr.Brown is a treasure for the Ummah. He articulates very complex academic topics by giving clear examples. He contextualizes these issues very clearly so even a lay muslim like myself can benefit alot. His grassroots works proof that he's a humble sincere academic. May Allah grants both of you blessings in this world and hereafter.

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

Your duas are much appreciated.

[@4681MM]

Dr. Brown's books are filled with oceans of knowledge packaged to be accessible in today's times. Allah yubarik feeh

[@FR-zz2bj]

@The Thinking Muslim and your disrespect for RasulAllah صلي الله عليه وسلم, stop the pretense please , come out and say who you really are

[@hurataimad136]

@@FR-zz2bj who is he?

[@rationalmuslim5312]

Non-sense at its pinnacle, hypothetically if Quran disappear you can still follow islam based on hadith?????? how will they pray salah? recite chain of narrations instead of surahs????

[@MrBlackCanvas]

I am glad i get to see these people on the Podcast. So much good information!

[@repla2992]

I liked the conversation very much. I am truely enlightened about hadith issues. Thanks to Dr. Brown and you. May Allah (swt) reward both of your efforts on the way of spreading the knowledge.

[@babajara2725]

May Allah subhanahu wa ta'alaa reward you both abundantly. This conversation has really sparked something in me to study my religion. Keep the good work my brother 💪

[@Zeezoro]

Amazing, enjoyed it very much. Things are not as simple as we think they are, and at the same time, they are not as complicated as they are made to appear. There is a middle ground. Thank you for this eye-opening discussion.

[@sammu]

No more coffee for Dr. Brown before coming on a podcast. I have PTSD from all the tangents! Great talk nonethelss, I wish it was 8 hours longer at least. Also, REALLY glad you asked Dr. Brown about the Quran-only group.

[@omarhasan3244]

Brilliant discussion. Raising the bar of Islamic discourse. I pray Allah SWT bless this initiative.

[@rationalmuslim5312]

Non-sense at its pinnacle, hypothetically if Quran disappear you can still follow islam based on hadith?????? how will they pray salah? recite chain of narrations instead of surahs????

[@berdigylychrejepbayev7503]

@@rationalmuslim5312 if quran dissappear then we will write it down again by using the millions of hafizs. they are there to do that. if all the millions of memorized Quran also disappear then there is nothing you can discuss about.

[@Defendisrael-ig4ur]

​@@berdigylychrejepbayev7503 Mr jalal and his team we Israelis would like to thank you for bringing on Jonathan brown to your podcast He's huge help to us in destroying Islam He's supports freedom of speech to insult prophet Muhammad pbuh but remember you can't insult us Zionists or boycott us in America otherwise you are antisemite and will face legal consequences Thanks again Mr jalal and his team knowingly or unknowingly helping us to destroy islam

[@Geej9519]

Fascinating discussion. Thank you .

[@OmarFarukShishir]

Brilliant discussion. I would love to seen Dr. Jonathon Brown again in the podcast.

[@rationalmuslim5312]

Non-sense at its pinnacle, hypothetically if Quran disappear you can still follow islam based on hadith?????? how will they pray salah? recite chain of narrations instead of surahs????

[@mnizam84]

Excellent one❤ with massive information

[@sherryghaz9881]

Fantastic discussion..enlightening. Dr Jonathan Brown is awesome.

[@yousufsadat9243]

Thanks to both of you. Honestly, I learned a lot.

[@salmana4239]

Thank you Dr Brown for an excellent layman explanation.

[@Guyfawx42]

Such an interesting conversation, so many fresh perspectives that most people don't discuss.

[@rationalmuslim5312]

Non-sense at its pinnacle, hypothetically if Quran disappear you can still follow islam based on hadith?????? how will they pray salah? recite chain of narrations instead of surahs????

[@omarkn4371]

An excellent presentation, a more in-depth view of the hadith, and many examples- - highly recommended!

[@kausamsalam8543]

Just got inspired to study more authentic Hadith., (a weakness of mine). Thanks for this discussion. May Allah keep blessing the brothers and scholars.

[@adrianabonitaaziz]

What if hadiths didn't exist? Would you be lost with the Quran alone? What about the people who believed in the Quran , are they going to hell ? Is Prophet Muhammed going to hell ? Cause hadiths only appeared 200 years after his death ! How do you guys judge ????

[@ibrahimhany1999]

@@adrianabonitaaziz are you ignorant Hadiths we’re written down during the lifetime of the Prophet peace be upon him this is a historical fact it was then compiled in the Era of the Salaf (which are the three generation after the Prophet peace be upon which are the Sahaba ie the companions of the Prophet peace be upon him then the tabien who are the students of the companions and then the Tabei atabien who are the students of them) they are the best generation of Muslims cuz they had the direct teachings of the Prophet peace be upon him) the Hadiths were compiled by the tabien the students of the companions while some of the companions were alive this was about a few decades after the death of the prophet peace be upon him.

[@ibrahimhany1999]

I recommend you watch sheikh uthman Ibn farooq he goes into detail about this topic if you’re truly sincere

[@KnightofPower]

@@adrianabonitaaziz this comment proves you didn’t watch the video at all lol. The common misconception that the hadith “suddenly appeared 200 years after the Prophet ﷺ” is given an excellent explanation by Prof Brown. I urge you to open your mind and listen to our good brothers.

[@rationalmuslim5312]

Non-sense at its pinnacle, hypothetically if Quran disappear you can still follow islam based on hadith?????? how will they pray salah? recite chain of narrations instead of surahs????

[@SlaveKing1444]

I am obsessed with Jonathan Brown and he looks like Harrison Ford, except better. Excellent lecture. Learned a lot. Thank you John. You have a lot for people to learn from.

[@MagaDutchman]

Great podcast very educative may Allah bless you

[@a4482921]

Clear and engaging, thanks

[@digitalboy4415]

A nice guest and a calm host resulted in a good discussion.

[@mods3167]

Masha Allah. Fantastic interview, and incredibly informative.

[@imammamunu9537]

Always insightful to listen to Dr. A C Brown. May Allah preserve you amin

[@murtazaakram5183]

Mr Brown supports the right of people to insult the prophet peace be upon him. Choose wisely who you consume Islamic knowledge from.

[@AI-ky2sf]

Masha Allah, you guys make a good double act... bounce off each other well. Idea for breakaway series??

[@scarfaceyam145]

Love the podcast absolutely

[@CLBOO6]

Please have a part 2!

[@FarhatKCh]

Really appreciate timestamps! Most podcasts don't do it, and that's why I skip them.

[@bas6628]

Wow fascinating and Insightful and informative

[@BM-kk4dc]

Great discussion 👍

[@BattleofTrafalger]

insulting (kuffr) the prophet Mohamad Sallallahu ala sayyidina wa maulana Muhammadin wa ala alihi wa sahbihi wa sallim. kzbin.infoa-9FJUNXIlI?feature=share

[@shukrimoe2814]

Ma Sha Allah.. I learnt a lot from this muslim professor. May Allah bless him and his family. Good video thank you.

[@abdourahmanjallow3130]

Very informative discussion

[@AmirKhan-pm8cb]

Very enlightening

[@oxfordsarkar]

Fantastic and enlightening discussion.

[@monarchofgames2008]

Its gold podcast.

[@chrisschumacher2939]

I appreciated the discussion especially the details about how ahadith were compiled [39 minutes.]

[@mustafashaban2282]

Great video. Thank you

[@makkawii]

Dr. Brown at his best Mashallah

[@mohammadmirza8270]

Great discussion from Dr Brown, he went on addressing criticism arises from Hadith collection, however the host did not come up with more challenging questions in this regard. Anyhow it is very educational and witty while our brother, the host, was slow in catching up with the jokes in between .

[@rabiulhasanmoon]

thank you the thinking muslim team love from Bangladesh❤

[@Salah-vg4tn]

Great discussion! Dr. Brown explains Hadith as usual with a pinch of humor. However, I thought there was not much discussion about what the orientalists got wrong -- perhaps a bit of clickbait title.

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

Thank you for your kind words. Do you mind emailing [e-mail] on the type of questions you would have liked to be answered. Dr Brown has kindly said he will join us again when he returns to the uk.

[@Salah-vg4tn]

Thank you very much! I will definitely send out an email with some questions. It would be great to have Dr. Brown discuss those questions in detail in a future podcast.

[@muhammadhassan383]

Marshallah, very knowledgeable

[@doctorikon]

Wonderful

[@4681MM]

So true about humility. There are certain progressive social media personalities who I've never seen say 'God knows best'. Especially ones from Ivy league institutions like Harvard.

[@jeroenschilder9463]

Djazakallahoegairan! Because of the title and the first minute teaser, I thought the podcast would go much deeper and more specifically into, say, the recent study of an 'orientalist' like Dr. Little about the hadith regarding the age of Aicha ra at the time of marriage. A more specific, more in depth explanation of that from the 'traditional' point of view would have been very valuable, I look forward to that in depth from Dr. Brown. 🤲

[@MohamedShou]

Why that? Are you scared of secular liberalists? Or are you a secular liberal yourself?

[@ProGamer-ru2gd]

you need to pay for that. either buy his books or get the course taught by him and yasir qadhi together

[@berdigylychrejepbayev7503]

@@MohamedShou what is your problem? he wanted to listen to more specialized podcast where he can find many satisfactory answers to his questions. it the best thing that muslim can do. he might know the discussed topics in this video and wanted to expand his knowledge

[@berdigylychrejepbayev7503]

@@ProGamer-ru2gd or ask the for more. he can because youtube stands for that too brother. yes reading books is important but the general discussion about some problems related to hadith would be great and you can learn a lot of information

[@zak992]

Thank you so much for this, learnt so much. The study and science of hadith is a specialist activity. For us laymen relying on the quran and sunnah as passed down to us through consensus by the companions of the prophet (pbuh ) should be sufficient. For the layman hadith literature can be a minefield where almost any position can be justified

[@fahadn2002]

After I subscribed to Zaytuna College and Blogging theology many interesting channels are showing up in my feed.

[@mhamed1432]

Jazak Allah khir.

[@fai6702]

Dr. brown stated something really nice. Through which lens or window you are looking into a room. I think our lens or window is distorted already a long time ago.

[@samschwartz8858]

Getting our hadith information from Jonathan Brown 🤔 May Allah help us!

[@supplemarmot1244]

Who would've thought, Dr. Brown is hilarious. That "well well well, what 'ave we 'ere" was too good.

[@Gamerplayer419]

so good subhanallah

[@dilut222]

30:08 very important to understand. Greatly misunderstood that Hadith and Sunnah are not necessarily synonymous, nor are Hadith the only source of the Sunnah.

[@batman-sr2px]

They are today. Bukhari collected all the hadith and they are all authentic.

[@saifibnsalah6919]

@@batman-sr2px No he didn’t brother, a lot of hadiths are not in the sahihayn. And sunnah isn’t juste hadiths.

[@droidgeist]

​@@batman-sr2pxAs he explains, the Hadith is not the only source of the Sunnah. For example, Imam Malik lived among the Tabi Tabi'een, the generation who followed those who lived with the Companions, in the city where Islam was established, Madinah. In such a short period after the life of the Messenger, sallallahu alayhi wa sallam, it was reasoned that their practice and norms would indicate what the Sunnah was. Imam Malik recorded the Amal of Ahl al-Madinah (the actions/practice of the people of Madinah) as part of his legal tradition. The Malikis obviously use Hadith too (Imam Malik formed one of the earliest hadith collections himself), but the Amal of Ahl al-Madinah is a central component in understanding what the Sunnah is. To the Malikis, the Amal is part of Sunnah. And it also makes sense on a naturalistic level. When you initially learn to pray, for example, for a lot of people it begins by imitating their parents or grandparents, not memorising from a textbook. In the earliest generations of Muslims in Madinah, their practices and actions carried the same educational authority. Other schools didn't weigh the Amal of Ahl al-Madinah as heavily as the Malikis, but it's these distinctions (how much should a single hadith matter vs the Amal vs analogical reasoning based on the mass transmitted hadiths) that gave rise to different madhhabs. The madhhabs don't exist because the scholars were unaware of the evidence that other schools use. They came into existence due to differences in usul al fiqh (the principles of understanding) - the imams believed certain categories of evidence are to be weighed more heavily than others in establishing what is Sunnah.

[@enlightenlife2840]

​@@batman-sr2pxbukhari collected many hadiths insulting to allah and his prophet and did not bother to check its authenticity with the quran.

[@faridhermansyah3024]

Love it .

[@MohammadQasim]

30:00 yh i follow the hanafi methodology, wajib and fard are equally binding, but the distinction is if you reject a waajib ur not a kaafir but if you reject a fard its kufr. The difference is in using the types of evidence to determine the ruling

[@Dardasha_Studios]

Just want to point, the television in the background is creating an interference in the eyesight. Just wanted to let you know for future better quality. Thanks for good talk.

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

Yes we fixed it.

[@AxmedBahjad]

Salaam brother Mohamed Jalal, I thought you were thoughtful until you invited Jonathan White. You're well aware of his position towards Islam. It is a shame, really. You haven't asked him tough questions.

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

Walaikum salam - Brother, we have to be careful with our words and make sure we have made all our checks before we talk ill of fellow brothers. I have no doubt that brother Jonathan Brown has absolute respect and love for the Messenger (saw) and he publicly repented for his misspoken words. Subhanallah this cancel culture is harming our ummah. We should be better people and try to mend the hearts of believers. As you say, I try to critique liberalism in my courses. But i also critique the cheap way in which liberalism is sprinkled around against Muslims. This comes down to a lack of an in-depth understanding of the ideas of liberalism. As for my inability to ask tough questions. You are probably right, make dua that Allah improves my skills. Keep us in your duas in Ramadan brother.

[@AxmedBahjad]

@@TheThinkingMuslim Thanks you so much for the reply. I think you were kind to Jonathan. I'm sure your skillset is pristine. I'm more critical than you with regards to Jonathan and others like him. For they do more harm to the Ummah than anyone else. By the way, when are you going to write your book on liberalism and neoliberalism? It would be great if you could put it down. I'll purchase a couple of copies- I promise, In Shaa Allah! Ramadan Karim to you, to your family and to the Muslims across the globe. Cheers, ab

[@hemisphere903]

@@TheThinkingMuslim can you point me to said public repentance please?

[@zamaiin]

@@AxmedBahjad alhamdullilah that at least someone is pointing this out. I've been going through this comment and all I've seen is praises of this guy that literally said he support insulting the prophet and LGBT rights. Plus is public repentance is nothing but a lie

[@lydia-tr3xn]

@@zamaiin how did you know that he claims things he is not? Where did u hear about him supporting lgbt and insulting our prophet?

[@riezan]

This is the perfect balanced Muslim appearance in Islam. Dr Jonathan Brown, Nouman Ali Khan,, Abdullah al Andalusi, Omar Sulaiman, Dr Jeffrey Lang, Paul William, Joram Van Klaveren, Mehdi Hasan. There's no need to grow a very long beard and wear thawb just because Islam is a such universal religion and Allah doesn't judge your appearance or name. You can be a devout Muslim and American/European at the same time.

[@mikeangelo8152]

This is the very degenerative and low self esteemed and low confidence state of muslim thought that young muslim men in the west have. They are stuck with the outer appearance. The western white male dominance and superiority has caused them to even have a low self esteem in matters of style. Alas rather if the focus was on substance rather than the sheer outer, such a comment would not be made anyways. But that is the state of the western muslim male, who is struggling.

[@juliuscaesargaius7275]

what if they all had beards? all different races, colours? your celebrating their lack of beards, the sunnah of the prophet who said Grow your beards, be different to the mushrikeen (who dont grow their beards) and this is because you see beards as backwards. you're simply pushing western values. miskeen. the defeated wish to emulate their conquerors.

[@peaceful_warrior7627]

Are you really dismissing growing a beard? Delete your comment akhi

[@riezan]

@@peaceful_warrior7627 Growing a beard is sunnah. But it should be trimmed and keep it modest 2-3cm long. Allah loves beauty, not a messy very long beard.

[@peaceful_warrior7627]

@@riezan Showe me your proof

[@mop6279]

I may be wrong, but Jonathan Saheb came off as condescending in the way he addressed Jalal saheb. Though to be fair, it's the first time I've heard him speak at length, so maybe it's his style which may sound like he is rude, but is not. In any case, interesting conversation and I learnt so much Alhamdulillah.

[@farahsiddique6702]

May Allah save us from sins and forgive us our sins

[@farahsiddique6702]

MAY ALMIGHTY ALLAH'S MERCY AND LOVE BE WITH YOU AMEEN.

[@farahsiddique6702]

It says in the very old BIBLE THAT JUSUS TALKS TO GOD ALLMIGHTY ALLAH.❤

[@yabuki4608]

In the middle of reading Dr.Browns "Slavery and Islam" book when I see the notification for this episode, what a coincidence 😅

[@philipcoriolis6614]

Philip Coriolis [Quran 70:30] They can have sexual relations with their wives and with all the females that are legally theirs (Milk Al-Yamin/female war prisoners/concubines). [Quran 23:6] With their wives and with all those females who are rightfully theirs, can they have sexual relations; they are not to be blamed.

[@MohamedShou]

@@philipcoriolis6614 ok and?

[@sunnysteel6598]

@@philipcoriolis6614 So what?

[@philipcoriolis6614]

@@sunnysteel6598 Al-Muwatta: Mālik said, “Intercourse with Christian slave-girls and Jewish slave-girls is lawful for their master by right of possession.” Al-Muwatta

[@mrabdi851]

@@philipcoriolis6614ok now cry

[@rationalistfaith]

Mash’Allah great interview with great Muslim thinkers 🤲🏼❤️

[@MrLightupurlife]

How can you believe a Hadith with the shortest chain of transmission being 15 to 20!!! This is insanity!

[@Football-fax]

Brother he is talking if we take Hadith from a contemporary sheiks for example sheik uthman from his teacher all that to the prophet so from the 2000 till 1400

[@animatedislamichistory]

The Hadith Tradition is grand. If you reject the validity of Hadith science, you can reject all of history because nothing comes even close in terms of precision, work done and methodology applied. A good conversation.

[@paulthomas281]

@animatedislamichistory What do you mean "reject of all history"? There is historical information in the Hadiths, information as to how and why religious and dogmatic thinking developed.

[@sabbrook5323]

This guy claims to be a strict sunni, and he shaves his beard which is considered haram for sunnis

[@FawadBilgrami]

​@Sab Brook what is meant by strict? Are there anything someone does by themselves or what was not in the books?

[@T_K_R_G]

​​@@sabbrook5323 This is false. You don't know our tradition fully. Shaving or trimming the beard in any degree is Makruh (disliked) in the Shafii school not Haram.

[@sabbrook5323]

@@T_K_R_G well you're picking and choosing, in other mazhabs it's haram

[@azizmohiuddin]

Great discussion, but for some reason two of the main issues were not discussed: 1. The fundamental limitation of hadith is that, unlike Quranic verses, they don't have context. For example - (say) as per a hadith Prophet saw said XYZ. Most of the time the hadith will not mention the context around this i.e. who was Prophet saw talking to at this time?, what was happening around that time (both generally and specifically around the Prophet saw)?, why did Prophet say this? was this saying by the Prophet saw part of religion or part of prevalent Arab culture or Prophet's saw personal preference? 2. Some hadith classified as sahih even in Sahih Bukhari / Sahih Muslim can be wrong. Almost all scholars believe that all hadith in Sahih Bukhari / Sahih Muslim are 100% authentic with no room for any rational discussion. This is incorrect approach to begin with for example Sahih al-Bukhari 3199 states that when Sun sets ""It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again". We know for a certainty that this is not how setting / rising of the Sun actually happens. It is Earth's rotation that causes sunsets and sunrises, not the motion of the Sun. I do agree with the last part of the discussion about people questioning hadith because of their love for our Prophet saw....this is the correct approach as in Islam rational thought and skepticism is always encouraged. Of course, Allah knows best.

[@MohammadQasim]

1:13:50 Correction brother, the hadith is reliable. Revisit it please

[@NG-ku7ie]

watching

[@talhahm8]

Assalamualaykum, fantastic podcast. I wanted to ask - and this purely to settle my heart - but why didnt the Quran state that dead animals are haram with the exception of that from the ocean - wouldn't that be more simple than having it be confirmed through tacit approbal of the Prophet SAW

[@droidgeist]

Why would that be simpler? The Qur'an deals with the biggest issues, most of which pertain to belief and exhortation, not the details of law. The details of law (which is what you're referring to when it comes to certain categories of food) are extraordinarily vast. And a single book that contained all these things would necessarily be absolutely massive and unwieldy. That is clearly not what the Qur'an is supposed to be. As Dr Brown explains, the Qur'an itself authorises the Prophet sallallahu alayhi wa sallam to explicate the Law, verbally and through his actions. And so, whoever follows the Sunnah, is obeying the commandment of Allah established in the Qur'an.

[@shazanomar4033]

❤❤❤

[@inhumanhyena]

As to the "hand chopping" verse, what he's saying is funny/ironic because it's fairly clear to most Quran-centric Muslims from the Quran alone (not tradition, which has allowed for the chopping off of hands), that the caveat for punishment is given in the following verse (5:39), that if one repents they are forgiven. Also the expression used in 5:38 suggests the punishment had been earned (kasabā كَسَبَا), not that one is required to enact the punishment. Furthermore, there are at least 3 different interpretations of the word i'q'tā'ū (translated as "cut"). You can find these other meanings through a semantic research of the Quran. You'll find one meaning as simply cutting, not as in amputation, but as in making a cut, for instance in the story of Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) when the woman cuts her hand when she sees Yusuf. There's also a metaphoric "cutting" as in cutting someone off. This use is more frequent than amputation, but some "traditionalists" chose the more restrictive "amputation reading" for some reason despite this. We also have an example of Prophet Yusuf dealing thieves in the Quran. AlhamduliLlah, it is truly a detailed book. A book for those who think/reason (16:12). Of course if you read the Quran strictly as a prescriptive legal text, and aren't really studying it and taking it seriously, you aren't fully exercising your aql. Understanding guidance requires study, and if you're reading of the Quran is so crude that you could interpret the message as suggesting that if someone steals they just get their hand chopped off, you haven't done your diligence. Perhaps Dr. Brown should go into Quranic studies, as he's making a lot of harmful assumptions about al-Kitab that Quran-centered Muslims don't make, and showing very little critical thinking. He's suggesting the book is incomplete. I and many other Quran researchers can attest to the fact that is certainly a complete book, though not some pamphlet to be skimmed through without reverence. Brown also seems to be making assumptions about human logic, which is not an arbitrary lens (as Asharites might believe), as even communicating in common language requires an underlying logic. Hence humans can learn other languages and understand one another. If reason/logic were arbitrary, it would be impossible to even attempt an argument. The irony of the commingling of neoliberal ideology and the neo-traditional Islam is not lost on me. There's an ironic "relativism" they share, though it is strictly opportunistic, *and seems a little manipulative.

[@quarksgluons]

Came here to say this, he was criticizing a straw-man

[@MrLightupurlife]

💯

[@sibtesajjad4437]

Opening was , to subordinate what religion was ?

[@mohdnorzaihar2632]

IQ + EQ + GUIDANCE = TRUTH Assalamualaiqum

[@saihinadir]

Whats EQ? Thanks

[@mohdnorzaihar2632]

@@saihinadir emotional quotient@intelligence

[@user-gp5ce4ns4j]

Incorrect. Sincerity + hidaya = truth

[@lifeisrandom4400]

Both Sunnah & Al-Quran are together. Like Quran told to do solat and Prophet teaching(Sunnah) how to pray.

[@TraversingSacred]

Title can be a bit misleading 😅

[@sumailmahmood7569]

what's the name of the host ?

[@TheThinkingMuslim]

Muhammad Jalal

[@sumailmahmood7569]

@@TheThinkingMuslim accreditation ?

[@alqods80]

The word is so polysemic that it beggars belief how often ‘to cut off’ is simply understood as ‘amputation’ (for which, incidentally, the Arabic language has an entirely different term, which is al-batr). The common understanding that q-t-aa means ‘to cut off’ the left hand of a thief (bizarrely not his right hand!), contradicts the verse, which clearly uses the plural ‘hands’: (‘his or her hands [aidiyahuma]’), indicating that the best way to keep a thief’s hands(!) off society is to send him or her to prison. Surely, to cut off both hands of a thief would be a barbarity that not even the most scrupulous fuqaha" have ever contemplated. A clear mistake by the jurists was to associate q-t-aa with a complete amputation of the entire (one) hand. However, other verses of the Book, in which q-t-aa of hands is discussed, prove that alternative readings are possible. In verse 31 of Sårat Yåsuf we hear, for example, of women who accidentally cut their hands after they became ecstatic over the beauty of Joseph’s face Other verses suggest even more different renderings of q-t-aa, such as ‘to cut across’: Nor could they spend anything (for the cause)-small or great-nor cut across [ yaqãatåna] a valley, but the deed is inscribed to their credit... (Al-Tawba 9:121) Or ‘to sunder’: Those who break God’s covenant after it is ratified, and who sunder [yaqãatåna] what God has ordered to be joined, and do mischief on earth... (Al-Baqara 2:27) Or ‘to wipe out’: Of the wrong-doers the last remnant was cut off [quãita]. Praise be to God, the cherisher of the worlds. (Al-Anaam 6:45) Or ‘to break ties’: 18 All translators without exception (i.e., including AhA) render la-uqaããitanna as ‘to cut off’ and do not seem to see a problem in the (technically) impossible sequence of punishment from amputation to crucifixion. Then, is it to be expected of you, if you were put in authority, that you will do mischief in the land, and break your ties [tuqaãtãiå] of kith and kin? (Muhammad 47:22) Or ‘to divide’: We divided them [qaãtanahum] into twelve tribes or nations... (Al-Aaraf 7:160) In light of these semantic variants of q-t-aa, we conclude that the expression ‘to cut the thief’s hand’ cannot be interpreted as ‘amputation by knife or sword’. Instead, we must consider alternative forms of punishments, such as imprisonment, which equally deters convicted thieves to ‘put their hands’ on items that they might steal. Imprisonment also allows society to release fully rehabilitated criminals back into society unharmed, thus fulfilling God’s command to forgive and show mercy in the face of a thief’s repentance and remorse: But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, God turns to him in forgiveness; for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful. (Al-Maaida 5:39) Unlike a merciless, indiscriminate revenge for theft by corporal punishment, the possibility of imprisonment permits judges to impose different penalties that take the seriousness of each act of theft into consideration. In serious cases, such as stealing intelligence through espionage or embezzling money on the corporate or state level, the judge might interpret this as a serious threat to national security and our economy and impose the maximum sentence (analogous to the penalty for ‘corruption in the land’, see further below). But if the theft is of a much smaller scale, a lesser sentence will be more appropriate, and convicted criminals could be released from prison on parole if they no longer pose a threat to their community and society as a whole. None of this flexibility is, however, possible if sentences stipulate an indiscriminate amputation of the thief’s hand, regardless of how serious the crime is and regardless of the circumstances in which it takes place. It has become the norm in most legal systems today that one should not go to the extreme and cut off the thief’s hand. Given that, in referring to a thief, the Book always uses the active participle sariq (‘the one who steals’), referring to someone who is still actively engaged in criminal activities in contrast to someone who has profoundly repented of his crime, we should seriously reconsider our current understanding of theft and adopt a more flexible stance towards it (which, we believe, a well-organised prison system can clearly provide).

[@mohammedabukar2234]

The definition he gave about hadeeth is actionly the definition of sunnah.

[@AbdulazizNasif]

أنصح الأخ جوناثان بمراجعة كتب العقيدة المسندة مثل كتاب السنة للخلال وكتاب السنة لحرب الكرماني وأيضا كتاب العلو للعلي الغفار للذهبي

[@T_K_R_G]

أنصحك بمراجعة كتب عقيدة أهل السنة والجماعة التي شرحت وبينت ولخصت وجمعت بين الوحي والعقل مثل كتب الإمام الغزالي رضي الله عنه، راجع كتابه (الرسالة القدسية). نصيحة ممن غالبا قرأ ما ذكرت وغير ذلك مما لا تعرفه.

[@AbdulazizNasif]

@@T_K_R_G عقائد المتأخرين المختلطة بأقوال الجهمية (بل بعضها هي عين أقوالهم) وفرها لنفسك.

[@enlightenlife2840]

He says the prophet did not object to writing his hadiths while there are hadiths by abuSaeed alkhudari quoting the prophet that said the prophet is against hadiths. Hadiths have plagued the ummah negatively. Its as simple as that!

[@shazanomar4033]

talking rubbish with no evidence

[@tsurumikutaro7642]

Allah (sw) guarantees the preservation of the holy Qur’an. and the preservation of the correct purified Sunnah, because without the corrected Sunnah, we cannot understand the rulings in the Qur’an. Let Muslims be proud of their hadeeth knowledge.

[@TheSyrianAleppo]

Only the Quran is protected, nothing else.

[@sarahhajarbalqis]

12:16 Ontologically. The Being-ness. The Quran. Hermeneutically. The Interpretation. Sunnah.

[@mohdnorzaihar2632]

just imagine 5 billion people@ 30 days fasting impact on socio-bio ecology-economy impact due to current living condition today@future...

[@BattleofTrafalger]

I would stay away from Jonathan Brown. He has no problem with insulting (kuffr) the prophet Mohamad Sallallahu ala sayyidina wa maulana Muhammadin wa ala alihi wa sahbihi wa sallim. kzbin.infoa-9FJUNXIlI?feature=share

[@atamujad]

Or rather, Harrison ford looks like him, Barak Allah fi

[@deepsareen1]

Super interesting dialogue! So (apropos 32:49) did Prophet actually say anywhere im Quran or Hadiths "I used to tell to do this but instead from now on do this". Because that does not sound like Quran and Hadiths and Sunnah are that immutable. If so why do then Islamic clergy not go ahead and change some of the odious things asked to be done to Non-believers, Apostates, Homosexuals, Women and obvious mistakes / misinformation about physical universe and natural phenomenon and supposed Miracles etc .... Also this post-hoc attempt by Brown (~@35:15) to somehow reduce severity of "May Allah Punish" at so many places in Quran to mere it is dispproved (like say wearing of Silk by men) is akin to political correctness in discoursec. Also this authencity of observation based following of Mohammad's teaching and actions (37:20)is highly suspect as we know from demonstrated modern communication theory principles. So with the admittedly critical issue about retaining the authencity of (not to talk of correctness thereof) what was said / done (by Gabriel/Mohammad) in what was written (over 100/150) years later it is ironic how much emphasis get loaded on to verses and Hadiths. Religion too is a kind of Tribalism albeit at a lrger scale and with plenty of warring (and Proseletyzing emphasis) Islam is more so than many others. And as the Hadith goes (as told by Brown herein) the proof of existence of Almighty has to be first given by Theology before we start taking this tribalism seriously.

[@hamzakhairi4765]

Women accusing Abu Hurayrah of misogyny is insanely laughable.

[@alqods80]

The truth is that after the prophet’s death in 632 his companions were preoccupied only with the task of producing an authoritative collection of divine revelations. They did not bother at all about prophetic ahaddeth’s (prophet’s sayings). The Prophet’s (ß) companions had realised that whatever Muhammad (ß) said or did as a human being could not have originated from a divine source and thus was strictly related to the political-historical context in which he lived. Even though they could have started to collect ahadeeth they continued to rely exclusively on the divine text. Knowing the Book very well they realised that to collect ahadeeth in order to complete divine revelation would have contradicted Allah’s words in verse 3 of Surat al-Ma"ida: This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you al-islam as your religion... (Al-Ma"ida 5:3) It was clear to them that the religion of al-islam was perfected even without the existence of a single hadeth. It was indeed inconceivable to think that Allah has given them an incomplete religion of which half, the ahadeeth, was still missing. And it would also be inconceivable to think that they, after having successfully collected all existing divine revelations, could have been so neglectful of not having exhaustively collected all existing ahadeeth (a process that lasted several centuries), therefore embarrassing generations of future Muslims by having secured only half of al-islam. The collection of ahadeeth’s and the process of turning them into sacrosanct texts is undoubtedly a later development. The following aspects have triggered this fateful turn towards the sanctification of the Prophet’s sunna. We have identified an error The concerns of the belief that Muhammad’s (ß) words were inspired by God: And he [Muhammad] does not talk [ yantiq] from his own desire. It is only a revelation [wahyun] being revealed... (Al-Najm 53:3-4, FM) It was thought that the two verses equate what Muhammad (ß) said ( yantiq) with divine revelation (wahy). This led to the erroneous view that the Qur"an and the sunna are two categories of revealed or inspired word. It has been overlooked that Al-Najm 53:3-4 were revealed in Mecca at a time when Muhammad (ß) was confronted by strong opposition from the Ahl al-Quraish. They had questioned the validity of Muhammad’s (ß) claim to have received revelations from God. They did not question Muhammad’s (ß) own words but only what he presented as divine revelation. Verses 3 and 4 were revealed as an assurance of the divine origins of his revelations from God, not an assurance of the sacrality of Muhammad’s sayings as prophet and human being. Researchers have always focused on the influence of Judaism on the inherited Islamic culture, which was reflected in jurisprudence, especially in punishments such as stoning for adultery, killing for insulting God, and other things that have no basis in wise revelation, but what has been overlooked is the very important impact of Christianity on That culture, which caused enormous damage to Islamic thought. We can sum up the influence of Christianity with three main axes: chanting, the concept of the martyr, and the most important axis, which is placing the Messenger at the center of Islam just as Christ is the center of Christianity. If the Bible is the sayings of Christ and his biography, then Christ was born a prophet and messenger, and the revelation came to him in his mother’s womb, so that it applies to him: Jesus + Spirit = Christ Hence the formula of the Gospel: Jesus said, or the Lord said, and this is undeniable for Christ. At the beginning of the Abbasid era, interaction with Christianity took place, and the concept of the second revelation appeared as a result of this interaction, and with a direct imitation of the Bible, and “Jesus said” was replaced by “the Messenger of God said,” and “the Lord said” was replaced by the sacred hadiths, and thus a new Islam was invented centered on the Prophet and the Companions instead From the wise revelation, so we began to discuss what the Prophet ate and what he drank, his private life with his wives, what he said to Zaid, and what Amr answered him, for his life and actions are in the first place, while the wise revelation moved to the third or fourth place, and we do not exaggerate if we say the tenth, and when I study the Qur’an I have not seen any Shariah ruling related to the Qur’an, whether marriage, divorce, inheritance, will, fighting or war. Rather, they are the rulings of the jurists. For them, God Almighty is nothing more than a poet, and for us, God is alive and eternal, and His Book is also eternal, from living to living. All I do is bring it back to the center, and the Prophet and his companions are dead and we have to bury them. And this influence of Christianity is hundreds of times more dangerous than the influence of Judaism, because it put for us a new religion, which contains nonsense, starting from the fabrication of hadith to the justice of the Companions and the infallibility of the imams, and the wise revelation of blessing and legal ruqyah became, while it is the book of the living and remaining God, it is also alive and remaining, And if it was believed in the seventh century AD, we must search for its credibility in the twenty-first century as well. Note that before the birth of Al-Shafi’i in 150 AH, we did not find any of the companions who said the second revelation, and the famous hadith scholars such as Al-Bukhari, Muslim and Ahmed bin Hanbal, and their books, appeared immediately after Al-Shafi’i and not before him.

[@sunshineseaandvitamind8620]

The word of God is more powerful. Always. There is nothing like it.

[@SaddamHussain-we9ec]

I thought he is Matt Walsh 😁😅😅,

[@aboeAimen]

I defend the right for people to cal Jonny brown a dork .

[@AhmedMohamed-ke1bn]

هذا مثلا علي ان الاعجمي لا يمكن ان يحذق مدلولات اللغة

[@Hebiscus998]

52:31 Shout out to China for maintaining its streak of providing cheaper alternatives

[@DiffQ_Bro]

I thought they really chop your hand off in Saudia Arabia.

[@dorarie3167]

What good is a reliable isnad if the matn is suspect or just a made-up tale?

[@hatemelsele7015]

In american english Pants means trousers. .

[@Aliya-gh2ec]

Jonathan Brown must teach his children to be respectful when they ask questions about Islam, not ask silly things in American style.

[@boredalchemist]

cant be thinking much with brown on the show

[@alltruthrevealed-]

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