Hags: Misogyny & The Middle-Aged Woman, with Victoria Smith, Sonia Sodha and Hadley Freeman

Why are middle-aged women these days subject to so much rage and hatred - frequently from people who see themselves as kind and ‘on the right side of history’? What explains the popularity of the Karen meme, which references a stereotypically privileged white woman whom everyone feels entitled to loathe? Why does this age-old misogyny feel so very now?
As writer Victoria Smith approached middle age she made her peace with her sagging neckline and having to cope with ageing parents. But the disdain and vitriol she experienced as a woman in mid-life came as a shock. In her acclaimed book 'Hags: The Demonisation of Middle-Aged Women' she traces the prejudice that has been directed towards older women down the ages and explores the prevalence of witch hunts in recent years.
Smith was joined in conversation by The Sunday Times’s Hadley Freeman and author and columnist and author Sonia Sodha. Together they explored why women who have the temerity to exist beyond the age at which they are conventionally deemed desirable to men are seen as superfluous to society; and they will look for solutions which can benefit all women - whether they are hags or hags-in-waiting.
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[@yusufcanbulut2319]

For foreign speakers who watch this episode: Karen is a slang. According to Wikipedia, Karen means "a middle-class white American woman who is perceived as entitled or excessively demanding beyond the scope of what is considered to be normal behavior and decorum."

[@biegebythesea6775]

You need to add another element which is that she is racist. it isn't just an entitles white woman. there is a power imbalance.

[@jenhollis515]

Karen is a slur used to deride women for behavior deemed ordinary and reasonable when men exercise it. I worked in the service industry for more than a decade. Men make unreasonable demands and throw fits more often than women, and are far more entitled. Yet, there is no name for these men, no slur for them. Why? Moreover, no one can imagine taking out a camera and shoving it in an angry man's face to film him. Again, why? Possibly because a man will punch you, or sue you. Possibly because we just think men deserve deference when complaining. We don't think women deserve respect. And presumably, either way we know we won't have an army of trolls cheering us on if we post a man angry. You know what we do when a man demands to see the manager? We go get the manager. And apologize. Same with gender critical behavior. We call feminists Terfs and try to get them fired for saying the female body matters to their experience of the world and themselves as women. But if Gervais or Chappelle says it, much more cruelly, they get another Netflix deal and there's no slur for them. Same old double standards. Who gets cancelled or even called out for using traditional slurs for women? For historical terms for abuse of women? Nope, there's no wokeness for women, sorry. This movement, if anything, is more regressive than traditional leftism. In spite of the history of segregation and the ongoing, institutional, cultural discrimination, the sexed violence, the predominance in enslavement, the ritual mutilation, gendercide, etc.

[@frankturner316]

It's really become any white woman (we have it in the UK)

[@biegebythesea6775]

@@frankturner316 we don't have it in the UK in the same way. It's really not any white woman but white men have turned it into that. the origin is white women who use their power against powerless minorities in working class jobs.

[@daydins]

This is such an interesting discussion. There is always some truth in stereotypes that can be utilized to stigmatize and manipulate public discourse. It is a good practice to reflect and objectively consider what is going on.

[@user-hi9cl6vt4c]

Lol trash content barely getting 2000 views

[@Susan.D]

On point, but not thoughts that many care to hear and definitely want silenced. Very regressive times.

[@MrSears_1.618]

A "Karen" makes demands, often extremely unreasonable. Everyone has the authority and responsibility to regulate their thoughts, emotions, speech and actions. Maturity is a skill that must be sought and practiced if it is to be wielded. Maturity is beautiful regardless of sex or age. This is Grace. I dare you to be Graceful.

[@poisonivy8862]

I dare men to be gentlemanly and kind. Who is going to find it harder?

[@MrSears_1.618]

@@poisonivy8862 Gratitude is the antidote for the poison that is resentment. Failing to seek gratitude will make everything more difficult. Competitions have winners and losers, if I try to be the winner then now I am with a loser. I have never meet anyone that openly desires to be with a loser in an intimate relationship.

[@nak5eno616]

@@MrSears_1.618 met*

[@biegebythesea6775]

No, a Karen isn't what white men have made it to be. Karen is a white woman who abuses her power when she is dealing with minorities. That is all. White men have turned it into something else. I dare you to not be misogynistic. Daring a woman to behave as is expected of her by society isn't daring, you're almost shaming her to conform.

[@jenhollis515]

A Karen makes demands that would not be considered unreasonable if a businessman were making them, and certainly would not be filmed and put online if he were.

[@user-ll8mt4so4l]

All women

[@mariamichael1669]

Geeeeee what boring lives you 3 must have and no doubt your belief in anxiety, depression and we mustn’t forget the menopause……… it’s all called life! I loved Little Britain😄

[@markraftis]

Oh boy a whine and cheese party. This is why men get a trophy wife.

[@daughter_of_earth]

I don't understand why women want HRT. Surely menopause is a natural process of aging.

[@George-ky4wf]

because, modern society/and a need to work demands - means many women cannot retire until well into their 60's or even 70's... and a lack of hormones is extremely taxing on the body and brain and mind.... One is required to be physically fit, healthy, energetic and motivated in order to keep on top of the demands of modern living, cost of living, ....and without HRT, this is near on impossible.

[@daughter_of_earth]

Where do you get your information on the effects of menopause? I really want to understand this.

[@brainboost5476]

I would argue yes now. Before I would have argued no. Perhaps it would be wise to say I still don't know... 🦙🦙🦙🦫

[@frusia123]

Good conversation.

[@DCSIBC]

What about women over 60? We are completely ignored, side-lined, and talked down to by both men and younger women! It’s infuriating…

[@gitfoad8032]

That's right, completely ignored, which is why 99.99% of the NHS budget goes on birds.

[@brainboost5476]

Probably because the universe thinks you'll fit best with other women over 60!

[@cpt.cashfountain4912]

lol

[@arthur.prospero]

Leave it to English women to debate The Way of the World as if it's Up For Debate

[@IsitReallyrealreally]

The ‘way of’ whose world? Thiers

[@biegebythesea6775]

so who should? white men?

[@manniefresh3425]

@@biegebythesea6775not middle class middle aged white women wouldn’t know real oppression if it slapped them if the face

[@biegebythesea6775]

amazing the lack of self awareneess amongst these misogynistic men in the comments.

[@arobertpetersen]

Some young men do in fact fear becoming their fathers. And the notion that men will still garner all the benefits they did as young men is extremely myopic. To me, this discussion just underscores the difference between the sexes; women's emotional proclivities exacerbate and ossify their opinions as they age and (nowadays) give them license to be a victim. Most men can experience the same changes, but they don't talk about it - they just internalize all those emotions and die early. Frankly I don't understand this desire to be a victim - unless it's just white women feeling left out. Women have a power position throughout society now. Look at the film industry: there's always a strong female lead while the males are often written as submissive, secondary or outright incompetent. Women dominate in higher education and administrative roles. Bigotry, misogyny (& misandry) can be found in every sector of society. Seems to me projection is a big part of this discussion. Perhaps adding some middle aged men to the talk could add some depth and texture to your bashing.

[@amandabloom8428]

A smart, financially independent woman who doesn't need a man's validation who can see through a man's crap. This is why.

[@gitfoad8032]

You playing sleepy-time Eye-spy?

[@TheRealBlueValhalla]

Always the same from society towards women: damned if you do, damned if you don't. Men really seem to hate half the world.

[@ReiGunn]

If you can speak for all men, I can too: No. We don't. They are often the best things in our worlds: mothers, sisters, wives. A world without women would be duller, harder, and much less worthwhile. I am sorry if that has not been your experience, as you should be prized, valued for what you bring to the world. If your dad didn't do that, if the men who have pursued you didn't do that, I am sorry you experienced that, and I am sorry there was not another man around to stand between them and you to model what a good man looks like.

[@TheRealBlueValhalla]

@@ReiGunn you seem mad

[@IsitReallyrealreally]

The half that are superstitious. The ones that believe in their own opinions. Yeah. Fk them.

[@MrSears_1.618]

​@@TheRealBlueValhallaProjection of shame through the use of innuendo is something that can be overcome if you seek it.

[@TheRealBlueValhalla]

@@MrSears_1.618 there's so much to unpack withvyou

[@BlindTom61]

Why is the woman of the left constantly picking at her fingernails and then chewing on them? Weird...

[@TheRealBlueValhalla]

Why are you here at all?

[@poisonivy8862]

I think the same with redpillers making videos without bothering to brush their hair or trim their beards. Judgement on their physical appearance is my first response. Eff what they say.

[@biegebythesea6775]

or maybe you're weird for caring.

[@curtishancock432]

It is a little weird

[@gitfoad8032]

@@poisonivy8862 - That was quite profound. Are you also acquisitive? Is it better to give or to recieve?