UnHerd Live: Where does feminism go next?

Featuring: Mary Harrington, Julie Bindel, Hadley Freeman and Sally Chatterton.
Read the accompanying article: unherd.com/thepost/debate-whe...
Listen to the podcast version: shows.acast.com/lockdowntv-wi...
It wasn’t long ago that feminism was a united movement resisting the patriarchal systems of old. Now, disputes between factions of feminists take up as much time as the fight for women’s liberation. To dig a little deeper into the points of schism and solidarity in fourth wave feminism, UnHerd invited activist and author Julie Bindel and columnists Hadley Freeman and Mary Harrington to an evening at the Art Workers’ Guild.
The panel, chaired by UnHerd Editor Sally Chatterton, discussed their alliances and conflicts on the subjects of gender identity, sex work, surrogacy, motherhood and sexuality. In our divided times, where does feminism go next?
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// TIMECODES //
00:00 - 02:08 - Introduction
02:08 - 04:53 - Mary Harrington explains what feminism means to her
04:53 - 08:31 - Julie Bindel on what feminism really means
08:31 - 13:49 - Hadley Freeman discusses her feminist journey and dissects gender ideology
13:49 - 15:20 - How does Hadley get around gender and sex stereotypes with her children?
15:20 - 18:13 - Mary Harrington: more egalitarian societies have wider gender gaps
18:13 - 22:09 - Julie Bindel: reject theory, embrace grassroots activism
22:09 - 25:03 - Hadley Freeman: understanding the generational feminist divide
25:03 - 33:21 - Why do so many feminists hate mothers?
33:21 - 38:20 - How surrogacy hurts women
38:20 - 39:23 - Hadley Freeman and the Guardian
39:23 - 40:19 - Hadley Freeman: the feminist resurgence has created more female solidarity
40:19 - 42:00 - Mary Harrington: feminism must reject the new transhumanism
42:00 - 44:20 - Julie Bindel: “feminism needs to get to the women that think they don’t need it”
44:20 - 46:09 - What’s wrong with the Guardian?
46:09 - 50:16 - Stella Creasey MP’s bizarre feminist crusade in the House of Commons
50:16 - 51:54 - Why is most of mainstream media fawning over gender ideology?
51:54 - 54:37 - Should misogyny be a hate crime?
54:37 - 57:29 - How do we bring together all the strands of feminist thought into one movement?
57:29 - 58:47 - Could fear of the responsibility of motherhood explain the generational feminist divide?
58:47 - 01:03:13 - Does feminism no longer celebrate womanhood?
01:03:13 - 01:08:29 - Does language matter in the gender debate?
01:08:29 - 01:08:50 - Conclusion
#feminism #trans #UnHerd

[@UnHerd]

Where _does_ feminism go next? *If you found this video interesting, please do suggest other topics we should investigate in the comments below and don't forget to subscribe, like and share this video - it helps other people find it!*

[@foodiez]

Thank you for this video, I would highly encourage participation/ conversations as well with Muslim women (of different sect Sunni, Shiite, Ahmadi) as they are often misrepresented despite being a very diverse bunch. You recently invited Ayaan Hirshi Ali, might you consider those with differing perspectives to feminism and empowerment. There are two sides of the stories.

[@foodiez]

Surrogacy is clearly problematic, but I also think this can be equally argued for sperm donation/ sperm donor selection. Can UnHerd discuss the commodification of male sperm and how increasingly there has been a growing issue of children only realizing as adults that they have 72 siblings, there is a potential for incest, and also issues around children of sperm donors growing up not knowing their history/health etc. I think this is going to be a growing topic with the rise of sperm donor conceived children.

[@janetkleboe8616]

Why are trangendered persons called trans woman and trans men and not trans female and trans male?

[@puk4763]

Anti-Capitalism, preferably. But that is unlikely :(

[@nastymcfipples5473]

How about a discussion of men's issues. They exist and are not tbe same as issues faced by women. And not discussed through a feminist framework or lens.

[@skwest]

"It's astonishing how quickly people remember what a *woman* is when you need to rent a womb." Quite!

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

what people are they talking about? Real people know a Woman's purpose all the time. Rent a womb? This is now a discussion about baby making prostitutes.. or should it be about family ?

[@greendrummers]

@@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777 Why do you use the word "prostitute" ? We are all prostitutes when we say yes and we get things in exchange, a roof, food, spending money... There is no need to feel offended about the women who chose to openly do it JUST for money. l mean, look at the politicians. Do you call them prostitutes because they are getting paid large sums of money by the pharma sponsors?

[@GGWP-nx3kn]

@@greendrummers Because they sell their P-sleeves to survive. Men don‘t sell their genitals to get by. Other questions?

[@MackerelCat]

@@greendrummers don’t be naive. Prostitution isn’t like a regular 9-5 it’s dangerous and exploitative, whether a woman claims to choose to do it or not.

[@greendrummers]

@@MackerelCat. What you call prostitution is some exchange between physical services, and money? We all do that at some level by having to work, so what is the difference between that and someone enjoying a relaxing or not, sexual activity with an exchange for money. Because Eve told Adam and he obeyed and now we are forever in troubles falling out with each other, making wars happen in our minds and look for them on KZbin comments to have a good go? Who exploits the woman who is doing this just for herself, this which you call prostitution, isn’t she her own culprit?. Nobody taking out of her other than psychically and energetically, if any of that is true with a high sexual contact. Why would she choose that, you would have to ask before judging.

[@marymargaretburke]

It’s so scary thinking of the young girls who feel that if they have “masculine” traits, that this means they are not women. This was talked about in the conversation and it really resonated with me. I’m 31 years old and live in a city where it honestly seems like MOST people i meet are identifying as non-binary-women, in particular. It is truly starting to feel like the people around me think that simply being a woman is passé. This may seem like I’m exaggerating but it really feels like these young people think that if you were born a woman, but you are a strong-willed person (to put it very briefly) that this means you are something other than a woman. It’s awful and very sad to me. I’m not particularly girly, and in many ways you could say i have “masculine” personality traits. The thing is, they’re not masculine. Those are MY traits, and I am a woman. I could go on and on about this.

[@marymargaretburke]

@@redhammer9910 are you addressing all women?? What are you talking about? I live my life and it’s my fault women are identifying as non-binary?

[@AndyJarman]

They are being groomed in school to think "normal" means you are oppressive and bad. Puberty for girls is quite often traumatic. As Carl Benjamin recently pointed out (in Peter Boghossian's YT video) women's bodies do things to women without their say so. A man's body might be injured or fall ill, but it doesn't grow another being inside it, or spontaneously bleed, or embarrass it's owner with violent mood swings. It doesn't spontaneously start to shut down sexually and become a crones body just when the woman has sorted out her life and can eventually start living her own life. From a man's point of view this would be an outrageous attack on our autonomy and integrity. As feminisms have gravitated towards viewing a woman as interchangeable with a man, the dissonance the physicality of a woman's body must cause women must be profound. This is oerhaps where "optional" sexuality has its attraction for young women.

[@stephenpenman3574]

I think Mary has an interesting point in suggesting that the trans debate is perhaps a softening-up process, designed to lower resistence towards the gruesome and amoral implications of a trans-human, medical industry.

[@larrye3602]

You c

[@larrye3602]

A solidarity built around hatred of a common enemy is not sustainable. Feminism should focus on what it is for, rather than what it is against.

[@GregQchi]

On face value that sounds batshit crazy

[@nikkinomad]

definitely the case - lots of us have known it and researched it for years its a theory thats out there.. in fact that was my own conclusion from my own research i came to the transumanism from research into space exploration..

[@apebass2215]

​@@GregQchi on face value claiming men can be women sounds batshit crazy.

[@cantankerouspatriarch4981]

Came into this conversation thinking, "Keep your enemies closer." Left pleasently surprised at the number of rational talking points and the clarity with which they were conveyed.

[@AmanitaWoodrose]

That's because this is real feminism.

[@Guillhez]

@@AmanitaWoodrose funny because “real feminism” is the root cause of this whole debacle

[@mugwump9131]

@@Guillhezno, it isn’t. If you think it is, you don’t know what you’re talking about.

[@uusrano]

It would be time for it to enter the sanity phase and start advocating for mothers and for children growing up in functional families.

[@charbelh.boutros4971]

Amen, very well said. Unfortunately there's one big problem: socialist governments would strongly oppose this- imagine how much tax money they would lose if more women suddenly realized the value of motherhood and upbringing a happy and healthy family, instead of working 2 jobs and living a lonely life.

[@hz1823]

@@charbelh.boutros4971 You realise that's already happening under capitalism, right? Under socialism no-one would have to even work 2 jobs given that they'd be paid what their labour is actually worth and not just a fraction of it while the rest goes to fat-cat CEOs.

[@CraneArmy]

@@hz1823 "under capitalism" The central banking structure we live under, which incentivized women into labor to raise tax receipts and borrowing power for capital govt's has very little to do with capitalism. This was part of marx's philosophy, not adam smith's

[@ThumpRat]

​@@hz1823 capitalism has its faults in practice, especially the capitalism that exists today in developed countries which can be described as a social democratic free market, but it's wilfully ignorant to pretend socialism would allow families to live off one income. It's strange that capitalism is always measured by its application but socialism is only measured theoretically, especially when we've seen it fail horrifically in the 20th and 21st centuries

[@MisyeDiVre]

Was it not "advocating for women" that lead to the deconstruction, and hence, to the atomisation of the family?

[@skwest]

Okay, last comment from me, I promise. While I might not agree with absolutely every point that a panel of Feminists might make, it is gloriously refreshing to hear a conversation entirely free of any kind of unhinged, Frankfurt-School-like, deconstruction of objective reality. And, thank you UnHerd for bringing us this video.

[@skwest]

@UCh5O-mLz7JIosfLIWnleBVA I thought a little more on this, and I think I see more of your point, but specifically with respect to the association of _freedom_ with abortion 'rights'.

[@pebblepod30]

@@skwest Oh yes, a woman's legal Reproductive Right is ALSO the right to kill another human at fetal stage of their existence. You and me were all once in that position too, but we have the privilege that our mother & her Doctor did not kill us, based on arbitrary, goal-based reasoning & double standards. At least a person with the right to kill, or having to decide to enable someone else, should be forced to take it seriously & watch a real abortion with all the blood & body parts & intestines hanging out. Just like if we want to talk about war (Vietnam War was fine until the footage came out, same with anything). Yet most ppl want to talk about it without ever considering that being ethically consistent means they can't get what they want, or should watch & reflect what a real "abortion" procedure looks like. Like the term "body count", "collateral damage", "abortion" & "reproductive rights" are also EUPHAMISMS to emotionally disconnect from reality. All the people I know who have had abortions (usually multiple) were traumatized by it LATER, because they didn't take the moral issue seriously & suppression & denial of facts seems to get harder & harder over time. If you cannot do something with full awareness & open to the Conscience, then maybe something is wrong with it?

[@lafleurproductions]

Thank you. So glad to hear a SANE conversation on this topic.

[@RalphOK]

There's nothing sane about entertaining feminism for even a microsecond. It's the number one reason for most of the problems in Western society, and increasingly everywhere else.

[@almostafa4725]

@@RalphOK exactly

[@microcolonel]

The contrast between those motivated by love and care for women, and those motivated by ignorance and contempt of men, is rarely this stark. You can really tell apart those among this group who live in the real world, from those who live within their own egos.

[@ioanparry]

Hats off to the organisers, the panel and Julie in particular. Here's to common senseism 👍

[@patrickbutler6026]

I value the enlightening descriptions of the World individual women and girls live in, and, in particular, value those who dare to speak out against the sex-change-by-law political movement. I thank the panel for these reasons. I do think that by having its two meanings used interchangeably, the word ‘gender’ is a most insidious confuser. To insiders it means sex stereotypes, but to the public--in being asked almost daily to check either ‘male’ or ‘female’ on forms--‘gender’ is simply a genteel synonym for ‘sex.’ The public also perfectly-well understands what sex stereotypes are and it is the public who feminists want to inform not confuse. This confusion can be eliminated by deprecating the word ‘gender’ in favor of one or the other of its two universally understood unambiguous meanings, sex or sex stereotypes.

[@terrisharp7245]

Good conversation. Thank you

[@LoneWulf278]

This was a GREAT video! Thanks for the upload! ❤

[@christinenovak674]

Julie mentioned how interesting it will be to hear from children born of surrogacy. Katy Faust in her book, and on the website of the same name, has testimonies from children born from artificial insemination, IVF, frozen eggs, and surrogacy. It is heartbreaking to hear them express the longing to know their biological parent(s). And the longing is not allowed to be expressed because they had a decent, or even lovely family life. Nevertheless it is still there.

[@drsalka]

Sad to see this topic only interested a little over 5k viewers in a day in comparison to other topics on this channel. A very enjoyable, even entertaining at times, watch imo. Thanks, ladies!

[@crista6899]

A panel of brilliant women. What a great conversation, only wish I could have been there to join them in the bar for conversation afterwards.

[@rachelhardy3381]

Facinating and thoughtful.

[@barrypepper9200]

That's right.

[@JoshAwang]

So inspiring to see a panel of such intelligent women. Mary Harrington is just so articulate... i hear poetry hen she speaks.. just so smooth and enlightening all at once

[@robyn2628]

great panel. i could listen to these brilliant women talk all day.

[@juta66]

"You body is you", totally agree. I guess some people do not feel as anything more than a piece of meat.

[@ArdalanHamann]

I like the words of the woman on the left of the screen who is known to be on the left of the subject as well.

[@desireegreen653]

Thank you so much

[@karijohnson1437]

Ha ha ha THE BACKGROUND, behind the speakers....ha ha heh....

[@martinbajsic4836]

Is there a movement advocating for femininity to be upvoted in modern society (not exclusively social status but better paychecks for feminine professions)?

[@rokzane]

What exactly is a "feminine profession"???

[@martinbajsic4836]

@@rokzane those that require feminine traits in order to be successful in them (eg nursing, childcare, probably all creative professions etc) To further clarify, wikipedia defines feminine traits as: “Traits traditionally cited as feminine include gracefulness, gentleness, empathy, humility, and sensitivity…”

[@hallowakers3d2y]

@@martinbajsic4836nursing is already high pay. Thats why so many women go into it. If any work needs pay raises is “masculine” ones. The trades are so severely underpaid at most levels it’s ridiculous.

[@martinbajsic4836]

@@hallowakers3d2y guess its a 2nd world problem only… at the same time having a trade (any kind of highly skilled manual labor) tends to pay off almost as much as working in IT in my country due to lack of workers /professional migrations in the last decade. Feel free to send the best of your men over 😂😉

[@ak47wd40]

Anything other than radical feminism - ‘liberal’ feminism - is basically just small talk

[@alisonirwin109]

Really interesting. I'd like to flag what I also think is a current issue for women that wasn't discussed. Menopause. Whilst women of childbearing age fought in previous decades for recognition in terms of maternity...women of menopausal age are now trying to get recognition of discriminatory behaviour and practices in the workplace. We are up against the profit centric corporate culture who see women of this life phase as disposable and often sadly unsupported or even coherced by the younger female colleagues who see the opportunity to be promoted and so support that agenda and who show a disconnect and intolerance of women in this generation. I believe this will become a more significant issue as as the global economy is uncertain and many organisations look to introduce cost saving measures.

[@stellercorpse]

only if there is a way of not benefiting from looks when women are younger. You can't get all of the perks without the downsides of getting old sorry.

[@taty9872]

The man at 59:32 said something that is true I remember all the articles in the 90s talking about stay at home moms scolding them!

[@philipcable437]

Inconvenient for them maybe.

[@aerily1]

Excellent

[@phyllislovelace8151]

Thank you one & all. Things that need to be said.

[@Nevsmith02]

Every contributor was on top punchy form and I garnered many weighty insights into misogyny and it's manifestations

[@gendercriticaldad636]

"As a 59 year old bloke" - Not me but a good question

[@jimjamson9534]

It was implied at 22:00 that the majority of girls experience unwanted sexual contact. I wonder what percentage of men carry this out, in their opinion?

[@johncrow5552]

You understand men "make the first move" so clearly more women than men are going to "experience unwanted sexual contact"

[@jimjamson9534]

@@johncrow5552 She is talking about girls. Children. Not women.

[@johncrow5552]

@@jimjamson9534 Oh. Well thats clearly wrong. Unless you are "progressive" and believe such peeps should be called MAPs.

[@jimjamson9534]

@@johncrow5552 Why not just watch the video, and make a comment on that, rather than just guessing what it is about.

[@kyliejones8827]

Moving forward, I would like to see a similarly intelligent discussion amongst men AND women around the topic of women's rights and men's rights.

[@kyliejones8827]

@Mike Tyson I'm sorry to hear about the shelter. Your first sentence is incorrect. Many women do care. I do. Discrimination comes in many forms. So does freedom. I wish you well.

[@RB-jl2qb]

@Mike Tyson what was the reasoning for trying to shut down the mens shelter, That really doesn’t make any sense? If they don’t have a mens shelter then they would have to let them into the women’s shelter which they wouldn’t want. Did the media etc pretend that there are no abused men?

[@hallowakers3d2y]

@@RB-jl2qbyes literally campaigned on “men cant be victims” because they believe women can do no wrong

[@mikehunt.1609]

Male violence is statistically inflicted far more on other males than anyone else To say that all women have the same thing in common, a fear of male violence, is only half of the story. The majority of society has a collective fear of male violence, which is perpetrated by a tiny percentage of dysfunctional males. Collectively as a society we need to address this problem. The feminist movement which apparently has been around since Mary Shelley's mother's time, has only tried to emasculate and infantilise males as a solution.

[@sylviam6535]

Feminists couldn’t care less about anything bad happening to males.

[@apebass2215]

Do you think men fear male violence to the same extent women fear male violence? Men can't impregnate other men.

[@AmanitaWoodrose]

Wrong, feminism centres women not men, get over it! Society has infantilised both sexes, not just men

[@swcordovaf]

The future of the human race is in mothers. All other women should be protected from real physical violence but special care and special consideration should be for the women who are the well spring of human life and care. That is where the interest of society is needed even more so. Every single being comes through a woman. By birth and child rearing, the impact of a woman is far more than just herself or her life or her life time.

[@reblskum830]

Thanks!

[@manusha1349]

Loved this conversation ❤️ great to listen to well-educated, intelligent women who are actually capable of having a civilized discussion. Unlike the new breed of 'intellectuals' who speak in slogans and have a meltdown when someone offers a different point of view! Btw Julie Bindel is a force of nature!

[@grintchster]

Maybe someone has already commented on this, but what is that painting behind Julie? Talk about irony.

[@alasshewasthehighwaywoman8886]

Fed my soul; thank you.

[@stephanielux]

All wonderful and beautifully well-spoken issues.

[@lisaohehir1075]

"Your body is not your personality " brilliant

[@AndyJarman]

Conversely, you are not independent of your body, it has a profound impact on how you exist as a person. One of the pratfalls of much 1970s feminism was the desire to disassociate women from their bodies. The neo pronouns Ms was invented ostensibly to separate a woman identity from her sexuality - precisely what trans is claiming. The separation of "gender" from "sexuality" again was a Feminist initiative. The desire to resolve men's perception of women by adopting male traits and men's preferred occupations distanced and degraded a fundamental role of the human species - to mould and nurture the future members of society. These are all key features of the trans movement - and ironically much of it is being promulgated by men.

[@Searchingfortruth880]

I hear, but at the same time, on the disgust for the mom body, there is also a strong movement towards going back to natural armpit hair and natural things

[@limop20]

almost got the impression Freddy didn’t like the thought of women questioning „liberal“ sex

[@mirandac8712]

Great

[@Searchingfortruth880]

Amnesty International, after an extensive and balanced world study, has advocated for depenalizing prostitution, similar to the approach in Belgium, we'll see in 10 years how different approaches have panned out in different countries

[@nikkinomad]

I'm on thte left! and gender critical - Julie B and I sat together at the now infamous jam jar meeting.. there are TONNES of labour women at the grass toors legvel who are gender critical although the labour party did haemorrehage lots of women when Corbyn was leader and was aslo as useless as Starmer on women's rights sadly.. I really resepcted Corbyn until then..

[@sosoo000]

To a small minority of us, antinatalism makes excellent sense, if you cannot look at the world and see the major problems caused by humans, the absolute horror done to our animal kin then nothing can help you understand, stay deluded.

[@livi2792]

The topic of where is this hatred of mothers coming from? I've been wondering if one of the factors could be as a result of poor attachments in infancy and childhood for more and more people being the norm?

[@margaretmaeda2548]

The pandemic has made me very conscious of ageism - the word “granny” or “grandma” with the image of someone who needs to be protected because she can’t protect herself. I’ve heard these words so often over the last two years, it’s almost nauseating. Since most of the very elderly are women, it may be inevitable, and it’s hard to decide if it’s ageism or sexism or both or neither. At 71, I’m apprehensive about having to deal with the condescension that friends a decade older than me sometimes talk about.

[@barrypepper9200]

Hello

[@MackerelCat]

Yes it’s difficult. My own mother commented the same. Then again in her final years she became very frail and I became very protective, and probably condescended to her a lot out of concern even though I always tried to advocate for her.

[@stephenpenman3574]

Ageism is the most prevelent, evident, systemic and ignored of all prejudices. Worse than sexism, racism, classism, islamaphobia, anti-immigrant sentiment etc. Technological advances have excluded millions of older people. They simply don't know how to access or exist online. They are side-lined. And so maturity and wisdom are removed from the public debate. Adolescence reigns supreme. Adolescents scorn older people. Older people are ugly and represent the past. And the past is ugly and wicked. Elderly people aren't consulted about modern issues. They're voices are silent. They are not on panels or interviews or debates online. They don't sign online petitions or take part in online consultations on important issues. They don't know these things exist. They are ignored. This swing to youth has unbalanced society. But it will self-correct as those born into or growing up in the online world get older. The average age of an internet user is increasing all the time. The online age demographic is shifting upwards and consequently ageism will be challenged more and more in coming years. For much of the Silent Generation (born between 1928 and 1945) the online revolution left them excluded and defenceless. The Boomers are next in line to become elderly. But I suspect they will be in a better position to bite back.

[@pebblepod30]

@@stephenpenman3574 criticizing a religion the same as any other is equality, not a "phobia" if that is what you mean. Otherwise you could add "christophobia" or "Conservophabia" or "Rightophobia" and esp "accusation-ophobia" as well which actually get a lot of people's fear triggered, often quite irrationally & based on ignorance. Otherwise you are using terms that are 100% only a reflection of your own Clique, not based on equal standards or clear definitions. It is usually an emotionally manipulative use of language, to frame something to prevent clear thinking based on trying to have consistent ethical Principles.. You also forgot misandry. I am just talking about equal standards, not claiming one is invalid or anything like that.

[@pebblepod30]

@@stephenpenman3574 I very much agree with you on ageism. Power of money & discrimination based on money is even bigger too, imo. IMO the power of money (i.e. Corporate owners presenting their add addictions as public interest) is the cause of most of today's problems.

[@doesntmatter7485]

Anyone know any gender critical left wing papers? I'm currently a Guardian subscriber but am reevaluating having learned what happened to Hadley

[@interestedobserver9352]

This compilation has served to reinforce my view that "women's liberation" was a movement created and hijacked by those whose agenda was to distort and distract humanity from the more important concept of "human liberation". We were all on a destructive path that was not going to lead any of us, men or women, to happiness. The agenda succeeded as is evidenced by this discussion.

[@GingerDrums]

"of colour" just means "non white".

[@karlhenrikbingen3903]

Julie is slaying! Brought me back from a long period of scepticism toward the movement!

[@moodyonroody5313]

yep yep yep - pls include women of other 'races' & ethnicities nx time ... really hope there *is* a nx time soon [we all women of one human race ocourse - Black, Brown, White, East & South Asian but wd be good to have wider perspectives of how we deal with class, identity, sexual orientation, exploitation in prostitution & surrogacy, motherhood, not having children, 'gender' etc]

[@jesipohl6717]

these women only care about white ciswomen

[@hallowakers3d2y]

No gender is a bullshit concept that has fo go and we must grt away from identity politics.

[@anne-mariegallagher5318]

fantastic intelligent women's voices.

[@marshaduggan8853]

Is there a female picture somewhere on the backdrop...

[@Chicharrera.]

I'm a 52 year old wife and mother. I have never paid attention to feminism, never read any books on it, never threw out the word to get something I wasn't getting. I have never had to even think about the concept because I never experienced any oppression, trampling of rights, sexism etc. I must be an isolated case. I am university educated and am aware of current political issues. I have just never cared about or for something that I had no use of.

[@pilosant]

So why watch this video? You're clearly enjoying the outcomes of feminism while trivializing the movement. Women all around the world fought for the rights you have today. Have you ever thought may be you are not knowledgeable enough about these topics (as you clearly mentioned) to realize you have in fact faced sexism and misogyny in real life? Maybe read up some feminist literature to know how far women have come because of feminists. You can't reap the benefits of a movement while denying it's importance and insulting it. Don't equate your life experience to the experience of billions of women worldwide who face these issues on a daily basis. You are very ignorant for your age

[@somni2246]

​@@pilosantsee, this attitude right here is precisely why many women-- like the OP-- don't feel any connection with the label Feminism (at best) or alienated by it (at worst). If you were *truly* motivated by a deep care and concern for the lot of women and girls and a desire to uplift *all* women, then I can't for the life of me understand why you think such a scolding and sanctimonious response is an effective approach toward a woman and mother (the OP) who was simply sharing about *her own* thoughts and experiences-- a woman who simply has a different point of view from yours. The fact that you read anything about her comment as being insulting and trivializing says more about your own ego than anything else.

[@JustMe-zk9dc]

That's funny in the 70's Feminists where saying why are car etc boy toys and dolls girl toys etc Now they say in the 70's it wasn't the case.

[@afifahhamilton8843]

The most significant thing said here was by Julie Bindel about getting rid of the 'hate crime' category, and explaining, albeit in brief, why mysogyne should not be put in that category. At the end of her little point there (at about 55 mins in) she admitted that she hates men, more or less, and it is for that reason that I find her and objectionable feminist most of the time, but on THIS point she is 100% correct. "NO" TO THE HATE CRIME CATEGORY!

[@AmanitaWoodrose]

Julie did not say this, you are misrepresenting her, she simply made a joke, that if misandry was a hate crime she'd have been arrested multiple times that evening! As making any speech a hate crime would lead to a ridiculous amount of arrests about bugger all. That was her point, silly of you to take a joke literally, are you looking for offence?

[@fredhubbard7210]

I am a man that was trapped in a woman's body. Then I was born.

[@uncleskipsprairiejustice9367]

Around min 15, the studies on material egalitarianism, the greater the gender ID gap. I'd love to see the denominators. I don't think that is true across cultures.

[@DanHowardMtl]

Does feminism no longer celebrate womanhood? It never did.

[@DanHowardMtl]

@V Trans women aren't women. We don't want to see your penis.

[@dorijoe]

I like it when hyper intelligent academics swear. It makes them more authentic in my eyes. 👏😊

[@A.I.andCompany]

Hmm ... Strange comment, given that there are none in this vid.

[@zatakification]

@@A.I.andCompany Oh I don't know. They do spend their spend their lives thinking of intersting things to say, and they do have to be careful to back up at least some of what they say, because they can be subjected to legal claims. Academics generally don't have that worry. It's not that hard to get a humanities PhD, any of them could easily do it. I don't think they'd be especially enhanced if they did. As a person with many postgraduate degrees, mostly in the sciences, my opinion of the ability and educational attainment of the average humanities PhD graduate is lower than my opinion of these people. Of course that's more an indictment of academia than it is an endorsment of opinion writers.

[@icxcnika9399]

Equal treatment in divorce courts!

[@maria369]

For men you mean

[@pebblepod30]

@@maria369 Obviously he means for everyone, not based on gender privilege in family courts. Are you saying that you support a strong gender bias in family court or divorce?

[@maria369]

@@pebblepod30 5 people liked my comment, they got what i mean. If you don't get it I'm not going to explain it to you

[@pebblepod30]

@@maria369 Oh jeez whizz, I did not realize that any comment was true if it got more than five likes. Do you realize that makes no sense? It could mean you are all wrong or have the same bias. So that wasn't a sincere response from you. But if you don't want to explain it, then don't. But my understanding is that Family Courts tend to favor women, so I don't know what you mean, or if you are being honest or have equal standards in measuring that.

[@pebblepod30]

@@maria369 This is a feminist video, so obviously female first attitudes are going to be on here in the comment section, and I have met plenty of such people. So my question asking you to back that up or explain was not at all unreasonable.

[@3tapsnu0ut87]

When I hear men discussing the best way to have and raise children I'll be a lot more interested in my own birthright to do so.

[@hyperTorless]

The best way to raise children is probably to make the whole family financially-secure enough to be sheltered of other obligations. It is quite literally what most men talk about most of the time. Take a random company, you can be sure the highest paid men are family men whose wives work part time or less. It's not the only way, but it's the traditional way.

[@AndyJarman]

Well, those discussions are here on You Tube, but they are assumed to be "toxic" by many women who have been groomed to bristle at the idea a man is interested in, let alone loves his own children.

[@3tapsnu0ut87]

I think there's still a big difference between grooming, tradition and love.@@AndyJarman

[@clintit1]

The clock is ticking.

[@kevyelyod1211]

What is momsnet ?

[@jayjaydubful]

Its an online platform

[@SAUCE-qx9eb]

Away.

[@Jennifer-wr9si]

it's an interesting discussion but I honestly don't know what 'feminism' means anymore. so maybe start by getting definition or vision based on shared facts. though the chance of that happening in this era of the supremacy of the individual experience is slim to none...

[@keyboardking8008]

feminism was invented after the war when there ware " no men " so women had to deal with being weeded out of the gene pool in a politically correct way - now it's just funny to see them teach other women how to weed themselves out of the gene pool

[@bookofdaveandsteve]

Towards all-white panels, apparently.

[@greendrummers]

l am not sure the word "feminism" has that good a resonance isn't it usually used to say about women who are very intolerant of men and using their hatred as a pedestal to stand on? l did a talk in front of 30 ladies of the WI (Women's Institude) the other night on chocolate making, the ladies were all a lot older than me, and it was very interesting because l realised standing there, that women had fought to have their rights, rights like gathering together and helping each other, doing things together and doing good deeds etc. l felt very honoured to be in a place on Earth where women have rights. They didn't have so many rights at the beginning of the last century, till they got the right to vote after the 50s! To go as far as feminism, whatever it is, seems a bit far. The ladies didn't seem feminists at all, there wasn't one bad word against any men.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

Men don't have the right to gather in one place excluding the other sex. Women do. Have a think about that.

[@hz1823]

it was feminism that gave the women those rights. To abandon it now and bite the ancestral hand that fed you voting, reproductive and sex-based rights would be insanely foolish. Our rights are still being threatened via means of men thinking they can infiltrate and enter womens spaces.

[@greendrummers]

@@fiveleavesleft6521 l don't think much of what you are saying. What about the men's cubs where men go to drink and women are not allowed to go in? and l am not talking about strip clubs, but proper men's clubs.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

@@greendrummers There are none of these in the UK. To bar women is illegal.

[@barrypepper9200]

Hello

[@craigpeacock1903]

36:50 shame. We all have to do shit we don't want to do to make society work... None of us is living on daddy's yacht

[@noturbo]

Humanity is traumatized fix that fix the humans laws and rules and who did what will go away.

[@blackswan4486]

I’m a simple girl. I see REAL feminists, I click.

[@nickelmouse451]

I'm a simple gender blender. I see genders, I blend them

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

you revel in your hell hole. nice one.

[@greendrummers]

What did you think of the video?

[@MargaretHarmer]

All those old white men on the walls watching the debate …

[@pebblepod30]

That is a sexist, racist & ageist comment. Their age or skin tone or gender does not make them bad people, you talk about it like it is.

[@MargaretHarmer]

@@pebblepod30 They are paintings…

[@adyingdream4585]

I cant understand why women feel compelled to talk about trans and gays whenever they talk about women and feminity. It is like both are extremely connected with one another. Cant we just focus on women issues? Sorry if ya changed your sex man, go talk to someone else. Whenever women come together and talk about their problems someone always come to talk about trans, man...thats fuckin annoying. Women do not have to always talk about that.

[@blackswan4486]

It’s a way of shifting the focus away from women and onto the people who are causing the women problems in the first place, ironically enough.

[@steveb9713]

Unfortunately gender ideology has flooded the school system and causes young girls to want to mutilate their body with encouragement from the state, so these issues are womens issues

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

it's because this a group of harmed children in the form of a 'woman' in the form of a fabrication called feminism. It's all fake, it's all based on false pride and it's death culture when you boil it down. These are insecure people with 'degrees' means nothing but empty darkness in the end. Cheers.

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

@@blackswan4486 they are complete masters of that tactic. Eve sinned but she blamed it on Adam. From the get go.

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

@@steveb9713 it's up to the parents to be aware of that but I see many complicit and jump on board with excitement to abuse their precious together with the system.

[@RalphOK]

Why does feminism need to go anywhere? Why can't it be got rid of like every other insane idea humanity has come up with?

[@andrewbaldwin4454]

This debate was conspicuously inferior to some previous UnHerd debates in its camera work. Those debates adopted the egalitarian Bank of England press conference format where questioners addressing the panel had the camera switch to them so we could see who they are. I can't remember if they were asked to identify themselves as journos at the Bank of England press conferences are. It would seem to me that they should. This debate followed the elitist Bank of Canada press conference format where questioners addressing the panel are heard but not seen, the camera remaining rigidly focussed on the panel. The questioners did not identify themselves. (Journos at Bank of Canada press conferences are supposed to identify themselves but this often doesn't happen.) Speaking as a Canadian, I really don't like this Canadianization of the UnHerd debating format, and I hope you return in future debates to more egalitarian British practices. It was surprising that a Yank like Hadley Freeman could trash Margaret Thatcher, the greatest British PM since Winston Churchill, and not one of the three British panellists would stand up for her. Maybe Thatcher wasn't a feminist, but it was certainly not true to say that she just sought office out of self-interest. She was a leader of principle who made an enormous contribution not only to Britain but to the world. And let's not forget that she was not only the first British PM who was a woman but also the first to train and work as a scientist. She was a woman who worked in STEM before the expression was widely used among feminists.

[@lolcat5303]

Agreed, these participants did not impress me and I can't say I agree with them on very much. They seem to be angry that feminism's anti-male tirades were subverted by the ideology of the emperor's new clothes. This seems to be a bunch of commies promoting their ideology through the auspices of feminism to me.

[@Amethyst_Friend]

A lot of people think both Thatcher and Churchill did many harmful things, as you are probably aware.

[@andrewbaldwin4454]

@@Amethyst_Friend Yes, I am aware, of that and they did make some bad mistakes, but that doesn't change the fact that Margaret Thatcher was the greatest UK PM since Churchill.

[@markaurelius61]

"For women the biggest threat is violence from a man" 13:30. No it's not. More women commit suicide than are killed by men. One of the worst things feminism has done is portray the male sex as a whole as violent and a threat to men. Married women are safe. More women use violence against their male partners than vice versa. But this androphobia is perfect for feminism: once men are coloured as a threat, the oxytocin effect kicks in and the little empathy for men that women started with is lost. So, feminism, a movement that wants to base our morality on empathy is effectively a female-supremacy movement.

[@rumco]

Bindel is insane. To say that someone who clearly consents to sex in exchange for money doesn't really consent is abhorent.

[@pebblepod30]

Sex & sexual power is traditionally the only power women have over men, and it continues to this day that it is a main method of power and often abused. So is that males are often taught to feel that their worth depends on women's esteem of them (like a woman's worth depends on their physical attractiveness; a male his status & ability to provide & protect). So sex workers are a threat to woman's power over men, and also why (apparently) some women like independent sex work, feeling powerful over the male. Of course it is also a privileged & easy way to make big money, that males usually don't have.

[@jayjaydubful]

True consent is when someone wants the sex- out of desire. And the desire is mutual. Paying someone to have sex is a coercion as they wouldn't have that sex out of choice

[@pebblepod30]

@@jayjaydubful But that is not true, because they do want the sex out of choice - for the money. Same as with a female paying a male Escort. Some Sex Workers also like the power it gives them over men, for example. Sexual power of men is traditionally the most common form of female power. That is like claiming the Customer just should give the worker money out of desire. No, in the case of an independent sex worker, it is a transaction they both want something out of, and are doing so by choice. You could argue the Customer has less choice, if they are sad & lonely or addicted to sex; and the Sex Worker only wants him/her for money or power. You sound like you want to shut down something that only involves consenting adults, that is not our business unless some human or maybe animal who cannot or won't consent is involved.

[@ruthlongridge2137]

Off the top of my head (and without having watched this, yet) I'd say back to the kitchen sink, herb garden, milking stool, spinning wheel, and community council ...

[@barrypepper9200]

Hello 👋

[@ruthlongridge2137]

@Will A The snake

[@ruthlongridge2137]

And having tried to watched, now, for twenty minutes I would say this is a discussion about society at large and how sick it is, and not about "feminism" at all. Corporations are inherently evil, full stop. I never belonged to a feminist movement (and never will). How I identify, which gender etc is no body's business but mine. Having to resist violence is par for the course, in South Africa, but blaming men for it is pointless when it is a social issue, and disempowering and blaming men is definitely counterproductive. I would also not consult a panel of people who parade their damage as the qualifications for authority. @12:12, the statement that "your body is your biological casing" is all very well but as we live in a sick society, that defines you not only by that casing but by how new/old shapely/unshapely and a gazillion other inappropriate things, so it is not very helpful point of view. Gender is only regressive if you DECIDE it is. Offense is something you take: it is literally a decision you make. Anyone who thinks that Disney Princesses are innocuous is extraordinarily naïve. I can't listen to this anymore. I hope Jordan Peterson has a new video out ...

[@hz1823]

Nice to see the tradwife handmaidens have entered the comments.

[@hz1823]

@Will A no, it's depressing.

[@douglas7000]

What a pity that UnHerd would put people on a panel who have so little idea of what society is really like.

[@mpress469]

The one man who spoke, the "59 year old bloke" (at minute 58:45) spoke for the future and health of femininity with the need to celebrate women for the very thing that makes them unique, which is the creator and nurturing quality of birthing new cycles of life, which in turn gives life to family, community and civilization. The answer is very spiritual as we should never forget that rebirth, baptism, "to be born again" is and always will be of that which is matriarchal. (John 3: 3-8)

[@paulineliste4545]

THE REAL FEMINIST ISSUE IS THAT THE VOICE OF WOMEN IS MISSING. The need to recognize that the voice of women is different than that of men… this is the real missing component… by only speaking about the HOW women are repressed creates an environment where the HOW becomes the conversation , this is what has happened throughout this platform…. SADLY We need to bring forth a balance in our society that the masculine voice as well as the feminine voice creates a society that is wholistic. Men are the muscles that do large muscle work, women are the voice that holds the language that protects the reproduction of the species….working together is essential because we are seeing that the voice of women having been silenced has created a society where we are killing humans rather than protecting them… To speak in turns of fighting is not the voice of women but is the voice of the male imposed language that women have taken on rather than speaking the language of WOMEN. “The third ear” expresses the history of the loss of women’s voices in our society and there is a need for these women who are speaking to move past the present cultural issues and understandTHE VOICE OF WOMEN IS SILENCED I AM FRUSTRATED THAT YOU WOULD HAVE SUCH A STATUS QUO GROUP SPEAKING ON THIS TOPIC which once again became a discussion about the social issues that the media has projected unto people confusing everyone so that these are the argument as to whether they are feminine ….

[@barrypepper9200]

Hello

[@pebblepod30]

well i see your point (not sure i agree), but that is a pretty awful way that you view males. It is like me saying "women are there to look attractive" or something like that, though IDK if that's how you meant it.

[@paulineliste4545]

@@pebblepod30 I am not denigrating males, I think that there is this idea that somehow we are supposed to be like males and males should be like females. If I presented myself as having a pretty awful view of males that is not my intention…. I would suggest however, that if you look at ourselves simply as a species that must reproduce and be successful at that reproduction then my point is in that respect… we need the large muscle and the voice together , the voice that speaks of danger and the muscle that protects…and crossing into these areas by either sex has not served us well…

[@pebblepod30]

@@paulineliste4545 Hello Pauline, thx 4 reply. I obviously was not talking about "women should be like men or vv", i think that is pretty clear from what i said. But "the voice that speaks of danger" is not a particularly feminine or masculine trait. A better example to strength vs flexibility' or logic vs feeling (which is not inferior imo). And your example sounds like "women should be listened to or have power; and the men do things" . That is not the same thing imo, that is putting one gender with power over the other.

[@tangodelta7617]

Hadley Freeman is weird.

[@tobymasse1712]

Nothing crazy about this conversation. Women are perfectly normal.

[@Jointknight]

Jordan Peterson answered the larger generational disconnect thing well enough, it's disconnect between the generations. Whereas, even he needs to show up to his son's house to make sure his grandson isn't being spoilt when he cries about being left in the crib. The child eventually stops crying and learns the behavior doesn't get you what you want. It's not quite this simple, but approximately really is. The breast-feeding issue is much simpler, because the argument comes from the simple. It's due to a sort of vilifying 'how dare you leave the bathroom door open'. If young women are doing this in greater number it's simply a 'finding yourself thing' like Jackie Kennedy refusing to wear hats, it's a learned fashion of 'right-way-of-thinking.' You can mostly ignore this; it will ebb and flow. But the greater preponderance is a sign of industrial damage. All of these problems are in fact derivative of a loss of the larger family, association is the missing ingredient, association is what give each human a base of confidence to learn about the world around them, because it's enforced and contrasted. When you lose the large family model, you lose the individuals slowly, over time. even success in life isn't primarily conscientiousness, or IQ or any of that. It's zip code, it's association. THEN it's conscientiousness and IQ and will power, yada yada. Industrialization is behind the damage, so is the 'enlightenment' and I say that somewhat tongue in cheek. OR as Philamena says, the idea of a bunch of elitist metrosexuals redesigning what they want reality to look like (themselves, their ego). but it's mostly something we aren't capable of adapting to, for many reasons. I'm not saying the best Ite is a Luddite, I'm saying that caution in our proliferation of technology should be as high on our list as thou shalt not kill. and the reasons are legion. and make no mistake we will not survive our current issues with technology without wholeheartedly rejecting and mastering the food they feed on.

[@skwest]

First?

[@bogucha12]

so what...

[@skwest]

@@bogucha12 Yes, exactly. Just never been first. But, now to actually watch the video! : - )

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

you sure capitalized on it. gold star for you today.

[@chloemartel9927]

The only oppression is women forced into sex trafficking. Feminism is worthless political yap.

[@markaurelius61]

Why is Julie Bindel obsessed with violence committed by men, when most of the victims of male violence are men, and more women hit men than vice versa? Is it because of her personal experience?

[@A.I.andCompany]

Where does feminism go next? AWAY, that's where!

[@island661]

It won't go away until women make the same amount of money as men. Equal rights, not special rights.

[@pebblepod30]

@@island661 Have you ever considered for a moment the lies you have been taught on that?\ Did you know that in the western countries, woman make the same as males, for the same job & experience/skill level? Did you know this? I didn't know it either, one of many things I was lied about by the feminist-leaning media I grew up on. I am not discrediting the things you care about which effect females more, but please notice when the media lied to you, PRETTY PLEASE.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

@@island661 In the UK paying men and women different rates for the same work has been illegal since 1970. It's also illegal in every other western country. Women in the UK under the age of 30 earn more than men which basically proves the pay gap is a myth. Maybe you should ask why your ideology lied to you?

[@island661]

@@fiveleavesleft6521 You're generalizing, cute.

[@fiveleavesleft6521]

@@island661 No, I'm talking about facts and statistics. Ones you seem to be unaware of.

[@bbbbbblllll]

I think it needs too vanish dont like it don't support it

[@dorijoe]

There is hatred towards mothers and women who don't have children are stigmatized. It's our choice. 🤟💪

[@secretivescorpio891]

Anywhere but here

[@cobusvanzyl5206]

Feminism mentioned in the same breath as common sense. 🙃

[@bluj78]

Be nice if it acknowledged that we're now in a matriarchy and tried to do a better job than the patriarchy in terms of minimising the negative aspects of the respective energy.

[@MackerelCat]

Do you know what patriarchy means? It is a descriptive term to describe how most of the wealth and power is in the hands of men. It doesn’t mean creepy conspiracy of evil menz. However because men have all the power the decisions they make can affect women negatively because they may not account for women’s different life experiences. So snap out of your angry MRA nonsense it’s embarrassing.

[@johncrow5552]

@@MackerelCat Yes, we get that. We live in a matriachy. You don't think the PA plants ideas into the MD ear? You do know that women account for 80% of all spending? Women don't have to have their heads on the chopping block in order to get policies that suit them implemented. When a tragedy occurs and people die, why is the term "including women and children" used? This clearly implies that the tragedy is even worse BECAUSE women and children died. So who sits atop? Who are the peeps who mainly die young thru suicide or at work? Men. If we ruled, why would we be killing ourselves?

[@bluj78]

@@MackerelCat I'm not angry, just taking a birds eye view. Certainly not an MRA - it's just as corrosive. However, since you've decided im a prick, I'll add that from certain astrologers' point of view re the date it started, this move to predominantly feminine energy becoming dominant coincides nicely with the transition from the age of pisces to Aquarius. I don't think it's bad, just that it's happening ✌&❤

[@pebblepod30]

@@MackerelCat Hello MackerelCat (the cat in my house won't touch the stuff....=^)) I noticed you are not answering anyone, but they have a good point. The fact that a very, very, very, very tiny minority of people who own corporations are male makes little practical difference to anything (sometimes they are female & little difference in abusing power). Saying "we live in more of a Matriarchy" is about which gender comes first or equal in worth & from positions of power. Politicians are often males, yet they will put females before males when it comes to any suffering or disadvantage.. This is traditional in the western world, same as "a woman's worth is her beauty; a man's worth is his status". E.g. far more males failing in society on most measures, yet STILL polices on same issue either ignores that or pretends it is the other way around (e.g. more homeless single males, but more help given to single homeless females).

[@pebblepod30]

@@MackerelCat Do you understand?

[@skwest]

Well, I'm only 21 minutes in, but I do have an observation to make that I wonder if Julie Bendel has considered: Male Violence negatively affects everyone in one way or another (#allVictimsMatter). Saying so should not diminish the particular kind of male violence that is frequently perpetrated against women, but should instead lead us to the kinds of conversations that one might undertake with someone like Jordan Peterson.

[@stevengarner8524]

Well done I lasted less than a minute 🆘

[@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777]

what about Women violence and psychological abuse from covert psycopathic females? don't be myopic. Jordan Peterson is a shill.

[@skwest]

@@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777 "Jordan Peterson is a shill." Nonsense

[@skwest]

@@SPINNINGMYWHEELS777 And I don't, for one instant, discount the existence of Female Violence. That's a straw man. I was simply limiting my comment to male violence, in particular. It is absolutely the case that female violence is, quite possibly, just as prevalent as male violence, but it is different, fundamentally different, in its nature. In fact, I think that the long-term consequences of female violence are frequently more severe than credited. But psychological violence isn't as outwardly apparent as physical violence.

[@mrdavemo]

@@stevengarner8524 "Well done I lasted less than a minute." That's what SHE said.

[@JohnSmith-ks5xw]

to hell, of course.

[@DrEO86]

Aren’t women just boring ?

[@joygibbons5482]

Yes. Please stay away from us, unless paid to do a job of work

[@gmailazerty]

The more they talk, the more it revolves around men and how afraid they are of them, lol

[@pebblepod30]

@@sleepyblink1390 That is similar to why males like myself want to protect society from practically female-centric Feminists & ideology(which - whether male or female, in practice usually means caring about things appear to effect females more (not bad); female-first; raging at males; treating males as objects to use to serve them), just not with physical things (as you correctly pointed out). My position is that Feminism & MRA are both not really compatible with equality, nor for solving the problems that appear to effect their own gender more. Neither are useful for solving the problems you or me care about, they are ppl living in their inter-gender emotional injuries & addictions, imo. Also, trans ideology & activism is a pretty direct outgrowth from feminist, have you noticed that? Same viewpoints, same things missing; same dominating, manipulative & unloving strategies, and actually unproductive in long term, imo.

[@pebblepod30]

@@sleepyblink1390 Also, acting on cravings or fear of pain is almost the only reasons anyone does anything evil or bad. That makes sense of why feminists will advocate for really unequal & unprincipled policies, fear does that to ppl. They often even say it themselves.

[@pgquips8052]

Meanwhile daughters are on onlyfanys