Hand-tool Competency, We Have A Huge Problem!

[@johnsykes5464]

Totally agree Gary. In my personal opinion, hand and brain power will always reign supreme. I work amongst cnc machines but i dont and refuse to touch a single one. Nope. As you said "not woodworking" 👍👍

[@DTJoinery]

I agree with you. Cnc's are an incredible machine. Nowadays, they can almost do everything, but what is that teaching the younger generation? Skills first in my book, technology once you've learnt the skills.

[@johnsykes5464]

@@DTJoinery mate, not even that! Yeah cncs have their uses for sure,but, when people rely on them to solely carry out the work, thats where its heavily diluted. Im looking to find myself in the right place where they dont exist! 🤣

[@DTJoinery]

@johnsykes5464 I hear you. There are heaps throughout my industry, not something we have ever wanted to go with though.

[@nigelknight1435]

I built my own CNC machine it will do 1700mm on the Y & 3000mm on the X with a Z plunge of 100mm, so it's great for leveling large slabs that are too wide for the thicknesser, the other uses for me are repetitive shapes and housing stair stringers. CNC's with their large beds are for board materials and kitchen companies use them to cut out a full kitchen using what's called nesting where the CNC program automatically works out the best way of cutting a sheet to give the least amount of waste, smaller kitchen companies will still use a panel saw and cutting list. So unless you buy a really expensive CNC that can do 3D shapes (like a robot machine you see on car production lines) there not really going to be any use in a joinery shop making Windows & Doors, the old Wadkin machines will still do mortise & tenon without the massive outlay. For me it's not the large machines that are taking away hand skills, it's the battery power tools, when I started out slotted screws were used everywhere, then we got the Philips head #2 which gave birth to the pump action Yankee screwdriver, but that died a death when Makita brought out the battery screwdriver with the long slim black battery, they were a game changer. Nowadays there's a battery tool to replace nearly every hand tool along with nail guns and young trade people just don't see why anyone would want to use hand tools and that is their mentality. I feel there is a market still for bespoke built-in or standalone pieces of furniture made using traditional joints, however this market is limited due to the cost of making such pieces, but I am hoping it will keep me busy for the next 10/15 years because once you lose a passion or mental stimulation then life can go down hill very fast.

[@DTJoinery]

That's impressive Nigel, ive not heard of anyone building their own cnc before. I completely agree with what you have said. You have summed it up perfectly. I still have a couple of Yankee screwdrivers😁 Cnc's are an extremely impressive machine, and even for window and door work, the multi axis cnc's have become very popular. I wasn't trying to paint a negative on the machine, more so that skills are being lost because of them. I think if you can do it all without, and a cnc is a benefit to your business, than they can be a great asset.

[@brianc5691]

When I started 40+ years ago wood machinists did all the prep work and we assembled the job. As cabinet maker/joiners we were taught how to use every machine except the shaper (spindle molder) to finesse fit and finish. TAFE was where we learned hand skills and did you need them if you struck out on your own. Machines were all industrial quality and 3 phase, even routers were expensive and the bit choice was minimal. If we were licensed like plumbers or electricians our skills would be valued and taught by those who have earned them through experience.

[@DTJoinery]

Tafe has become all but irrelevant now, Joe's tafe experience was a pale comparison of what mine was. Sad how things change for the worse, yet they call it improved.

[@theNerbFace]

I think I agree with you on some points. I’m a younger man (30) and I’m just starting to break into this trade. I started only using hand tools. I bought all old stuff and restored it. It took my about two years of consistent work to be able to pick up any hand plane, wood or metal, Japanese or western, to be able to pull super glossy finishes with it and diagnose any problems. It took me just as long to find an efficient method to cut dovetails with no gaps and saw a straight line moving at a decent pace. The truth is the time cost to use a hand tool is way longer than a machine. Probably 10x longer at only fraction of the efficiency. When people started to ask me to do work for them I had to tell them I probably wouldn’t meet there timelines. I could do this since I don’t earn a living as a jointer. But in western nations far fewer people aren’t willing to pay for these labors so this trend isnt going to change for production workers. Even me, since I started get some demand I’ve started to look for old machines at auctions to boost productivity.

[@DTJoinery]

I understand where you are coming from, its not viable to use only hand tools to make anything for money, the point im making or trying too is that, woodworking is a skill of the hand and the hand tools are an essential part of it. One that is rappidly being forgotten. Thanks for your perspective.

[@nigelknight1435]

Coming from the UK, where a bench jointer was expected to make whatever was on the drawing the boss gave him regardless of whether it was a curved staircase/kite winder or a sliding sash with parting strip and cutout for placing the weights, to making a bar and back fittings for a Pub fit out you were expected to have the skills to do that work or you were out the door. So when I first came to Australia I was surprised that businesses specialize in just making staircases or windows and doors whereas in the UK a joiners shop can make kitchens or anything it wants without having to pay separate fees for the privilege of doing so. I think it could also be to do with how regulated the building industry is here, you have to have a license and pay a fee for every variant with in a trade and you can't do the work of another trade, an example would be if I was fitting a kitchen in the UK, I would make the cut out for the sink and then plumb it in, they would expect a plumber to do this in OZ

[@DTJoinery]

Totally agree, I was taught the whole trade, and for a number of years, we did cover it all, but a point came where we simply couldn't compete with people specialising in one field. Dad would tell me when he was young, he had to spend 12 months outside as part of his apprenticeship, the boss came down and picked up a hand saw and said "who owns this saw" when the owner spoke up, he was ordered to get to the office and collect his pay. The saw was poorly sharpened. All the licences came in in the 1989's, basically a money grab for the government, meant nothing as anyone could apply.

[@izzeystarz7578]

Couldn't wait for the video to end to just say I couldn't agree any more with you. I mean I love my Rockwells and Wadkins but if you can't do it with your own hands (and handtools), then you just can't do it at all. And ditto for CNC. I just gave up arguing with people who thinks that's woodworking. The machines are rising.

[@DTJoinery]

Haha. Yep my thoughts too.

[@kimmosaarinen2780]

Hobby woodworker from Finland, or I try to move myself towards more than hobbyist. Started (slowly) couple years ago, with almost zero tools, inherited Stanley 4 and 5C and some other tools from my grandpa, took some time to restore them. Btw, before this, I used to be metalworker for ~12-15years. So far only machine I use is crappy miter saw, thinking of buying bandsaw, but that is about far I'm going to go with machines. I really don't like 'em that much, loud, expensive, need dust collection, can be way more dangerous than hand tools. My mentors has been mostly Paul Sellers, Rex Krueger and James Wright on KZbin, they are all hand tool woodworkers. Without those guys, I would have given up already. So this my hobby is a bit slow process, since modern vocational schools tend to focus on machine woodworking (tried one, way too much relying on big expensive machines), so I quit that and decided to learn on my own. I've been making footstools, birdhouses, cutting boards, trays, cutlery handles, small bowls/cups (without lathe). Last month I've been making small boxes (hollowed out from solid piece) and one gorgeous pen box for single pen or pencil. By doing almost 100% with hand tools, it increases your problem solution skills drastically and thinking outside the box. Getting good tools, like planes, or saws that are sharpenable, is annoying sometimes, Finland is full of Stanley 4's, most of 'em are old ones from elementary schools etc so they need A LOT of restoring. And asking price for those beaten up and rusty Stanleys are usually 20-30euros, which is a lot, since they need about days work or two to get them to work. Most people can't understand why I work with such "antique" methods and tools, no point trying to explain it to them. Note on the end: I don't mind working with manual machines, but I don't want those for myself. And I totally agree about CNC "woodworking". As for why I wrote this wall of text, I've got no clue :D edit: Subbed!

[@DTJoinery]

Thanks for sharing your journey. Hats off to you for developing your hand tool skill. You are a rare commodity. My planes are all very early American Stanley's (Bedrock) which I was fortunate enough to be able to get when our dollar was high compared to the US, I alos have some English planes like Norris and Spears, like yours mine needed a lot of work to get them into working condition. Decent hand tools don't really exist in Australia anymore, so mine are all pre WW2, mostly pre WW1 which are hard to come by nowadays. I've often thought about doing a video on my handtools, just not sure how much interest it would get. Cheers.

[@ericerf6837]

It would get a lot of interest I think!

[@henrysara7716]

Same problem all around the whole world, very few countries invest in trade school education.

[@DTJoinery]

Yeah, Tafe has gone downhill dramatically here. I don't like to think where we will be in another 50 years.

[@Dazza19746]

‘Use a plane to make It a passable joint’. 🤔 The absolute best miters I’ve done were with my super sharp block plane or serrated base #4. I’d hardly used any power tools when I arrived in Oz 23 yrs ago! And id been a carpenter and joiner 16 yrs then. I’d cut my architrave or skirting / whatever with a sandvic 244 and ALWAYS shoot it with the plane. Then ‘fit’ the joints as you went with same. You will NEVER get as crisp a joint line with ANY drop saw, essentially what you’re doing is a freehand guilotine, like a morso These days I’m as rough as anyone else, off the dropsaw and up she goes, it’s all about money and time. It’s quite sad that your brain actually changes, and you get to a point where you try to think up a way to use a power tool to do something, and some sort of jig or this or that, when all you need is to pick up the appropriate hand tool and the jobs done in 5 minutes 🤷😂 The looks you get on site too, using hand tools 🤷. A few Scuffs with the block pane and it’s perfect, or back and forward to a dropsaw and dust everywhere 🤷 Good points, but the jobs can be done to as good a standard or far superior the ‘old ways’ than just ‘passable’ 👍🏻

[@DTJoinery]

You misunderstood what I meant by passable. What I meant was a joint that was acceptable, not a badly fitted joint. Good points you make, working at the bench we use the tenon saw fitting joints as opposed to going back and forth to the docking saw, as you say, a lot quicker and just as good.

[@Dazza19746]

@@DTJoinery kerfing is a great way. Thanks for the content! I’ll binge watch, hope I don’t peeve you off, ‘over commenting’ 👍🏻

[@DTJoinery]

@@Dazza19746 Haha, not at all.

[@jamesnewman1613]

100% we are losing all of our skills as a manufacturing country. We are proving over and over we can’t do it. It’s very sad to see. Too many lazy people that don’t want to do a hard days work for a decent days pay…….

[@DTJoinery]

Agree, it's not where I want us to be, thays for sure.

[@tomthumb1671]

Mate your dad was same as mine a master tradie who was so skilled could do all other trades to perfection , in all I taught TAFE trade carpentry joinery when chippies could make anything , before cut trades to modules and that you level of skill , watching each year new uni twirs in academics use power point to show new ways of trade teaching and never used tools or calculations ,yep , ridiculous , example , we show chisel and handplanes use only ,? but don't teach more than 2 hrs to sharpen ? Imagine 14 young men you want to inspire to get skills and my hand were tired , then what the uni academics orchestrated a cou, get rid of people like me and you and our dad's and put 25 to 30s as teachers ,? It took 5 yrs in decline kids went from able to disabled by staff not being able to use roof squares or hand cut or cut and router onsite as a carpenter goes to stair shop and buys one ? True the education of trades should be by guys and ladies who perform and perfected there craft , compared to now I want to be carpenter ,! I take pictures of some ones work and pay $5 K and get a licence , no wonder no joiners because they took joinery side out of trade and made them kit builders we see today , if you said to a chippies today make a timber window , if he couldn't buy it there stuffed , it's a shame , all the kids I taught 80 % when see me say thanks because I spend time making sure in my classes those in it went out proficient in trade skills , such a shame seeing good skills reduced , love your chanel too

[@DTJoinery]

Spot on, totally agree with you. Shops like ours are very rare now, and it is not looking good for the future. Carpenters are not patch on the tradesmen of yester year, when they were highly skilled. Thanks for your comments.

[@Ragekolb]

I'm sorry, but you lost me when you said that the CNC is not woodworking. That is gatekeeping. I understand your frustration, but times change and advances happen. Villainizing them in this way does not help with progress, and only pushes people away. I agree we should all learn hand tools. I also think that modern advances are worth using. It's a different skillset that also enables us to do some newer things, or get things done quicker.

[@DTJoinery]

You may have misunderstood my point, I'm not a cnc hater. They have their place. This is about skills dying because of such advancements. I know many professional woodworking shops that if you did an apprenticeship in, you would learn nothing as its all cnc. Now my comment on its not woodworking is entirely accurate, the machine is the woodworker, not the individual. Woodworking is a highly skilled profession and if the machine is doing it all from setout to ready for assembly, there isnt much skill there, that's why we see more and more unskilled labour being employed to do these jobs. I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks for sharing.

[@dylanneely91]

Cnc operators are not woodworkers. They might be artists or engineers but they are *not* craftsmen

[@jakehuify]

Can't see how what he said is gatekeeping, did you not hear about the whole talk about using hand tools to learn the skills? A chisel and a hand saw is certainly more accessible than a CNC machine. He is talking about skills being lost because people are no longer learning them. Cnc has its place but it certainly shows you nothing about the skill set required to do work with a manual machine or by hand