Hang gliding instruction & in flight commentary - RIDGE LIFT. Also strong wind take-offs

[@JonMcG]

Darren , only mystery I cannot fathom is , how the hell do you not have over +10K subscribers ? Youre entertaining , knowledgable , passionate and insightful . The ONLY answer I can muster is , there just ant enough HG pilots out there , Even THE man of HG Wolfgang Siess only has around 4K . Anyways , please keep these videos coming , love your vids

[@billwcc]

I love Darren's vids, he gets right to the point.

[@MooSurfer]

I do? I actually thought I waffled on a lot!! But am glad you like it.

[@scottkrieman8108]

very cool place to fly and nice video, I would not change a thing. Good job!

[@MooSurfer]

Thanks Scott!

[@stealhty1]

Wind is abit too strong for my taste of flying, you guys did a great job, I really want to come back at hanggliding

[@penrynbigbird]

Since this is posted as "hang gliding instruction...", I'm assuming those looking for guidance (instruction) in the sport may find it. While those of us involved in the sport know this video is far short of complete ridge soaring/high wind launch instructions, newer pilots may not know that. My feedback is regarding high wind ground handling of the glider. First, it is far safer to have an assistant (or two) to help you safely move your glider to launch. This is especially true if you are already hooked into the glider, as shown here. Even the most experienced pilots benefit (improve their safety odds) by having a ground assistant. Second, I would never hook in to my glider and then move to launch - do your hang check and hook in (with assistants) at, or very near the launch. If you don't have an assistant, don't fly. High wind launches have caused many accidents and even deaths - it's important to know the risks, and reduce them as much as possible.

[@MooSurfer]

H5-Phil thanks for your comments and well made! The video is intended for interest - and is meant to explain about ridge lift really... The strong wind was just another feature of the day. My definition of strong may be different to yours too - it was around 20-25mph on launch. The other pilots did have wire assistants, though being the last one off, I did not. Though if I had felt unsafe / uncomfortable then I definitely would not have flown. Your comments are well made and though out and I'll take them on board, thank you - so I'll be sure to explain for my future 'instructional videos' (I have fillmed some) that this is no substitute for real life instruction. Cheers, Darren

[@JonMcG]

Tell me Phil , did your mom drink throughout the entire pregnancy ?

[@petesonderskov3796]

Great video. Please keep them coming.

[@onthemoney7237]

Dude on hang glider vids your the best !

[@billtrue3017]

Optional Falcon 4 Short Pack Airframe and Deluxe Transport / Storage Container The Falcon 4 with the optional short-packable airframe can be broken down to a short pack length of seven feet (195), six and a half feet (170), or six feet (145) for transport, shipping or storage. Wills Wing offers an optional protective container, specially designed to provide maximum protection and transport convenience for your Falcon 4. The overall dimensions of the container allow you to check the glider as baggage on most airline flights. The Deluxe Transport / Storage Container consists of a protective dense foam liner inside of a heavy duty, ballistic cloth zippered bag. The entire glider - sail, airframe, battens and cover bags - fits inside the container. The ballistic outer bag and foam liner provide damage protection for the sail and airframe.

[@MooSurfer]

Thanks for the info Bill :-)

[@michaelross1386]

Hi Darren, its ok got the answer to my question just before..its the VG control and very nicely explained. Now, I flew for 4 years a long long time ago, still got my BHGA badge and certificate. We are going back to 1975..was taught at Peak Hang Gliding off a couple of hills near Rochdale.Graham Hobson I think he was called. Then progressed to prone with a flexiform spirit. Your videos have got my interest back and Im going to come back.Looking for refresher course, hopefully should be ok with the EP, S0 hoping to get on CP course? Thanks for your informative videos. Is there any advice you coulkd offer to someone like me who is coming back to the sport after just over 40 years out of it? Michael

[@MooSurfer]

Hi Michael, Thanks for your comments and I'm really chuffed to have helped inspire you to come back!! You'll find since you left the standards of safety have dramatically improved and you won't recognise the machines we fly now! Teaching is much more refined too, though there are now less schools. As for advice - depends where you are located regards which school to go for. Also may be a consideration to do a course abroad (you can get fully qualified in a few weeks - 0 to cp in Spain). If you want to send me a private message on Facebook, I'll give more details etc. The biggest advice though is - commit as much time to it as you can and before you know it you'll be qualified and soaring again!

[@michaelross1386]

Thanks Darren, lovely positive reply and I will message you via Facebook. Thank you, Michael

[@michaelross1386]

Can't seem to find you on Facebook? If you could let me have a clue, would be great! I live in your area I guess , so Stanage edge, Mam Tor, Winter hill are all familiar to me. Thanks, Michael

[@MooSurfer]

I tried to find you too Michael but couldn't! I think this link will take you to my profile... facebook.com/profile.php?id=100004287782364

[@hghmhgm]

I don't like the fact I have a massive fear of hights but on the other side I find it very exciting so I might try it one day though.. Cheers, and be safe out there in the clouds !!

[@raygilbertflies]

When you start training, it's in very calm conditions and only a few feet off the ground. As you progress, you go a little higher. By the time you are any considerable height in the air, you have forgotten about your fear of heights.

[@tomthompson7400]

great video , well done for explaining , in difficult conditions.

[@delaguitara]

Thank you for that Darren! Thoroughly enjoyed that and now am very interested in becoming a hang glider pilot! five stars and a big high five!!! *****

[@MooSurfer]

Thank you! Now... get it done!!!! I promise you, if you start hang-gliding you will never look back...

[@jwm239]

....looked like a big 'juicy' lift band....impressively high. The first two takeoffs looked a bit weak (nose too high it appeared), but your takeoff run looked great....aggressive, many steps, good angle of attack it appeared.

[@MooSurfer]

Thanks Jwm... it can be a bit of a difficult spot to take-off because it is such a shallow slope and you end up close to the ground for quite a while. I think the other two pilots were trying to take advantage of the windy conditions - often we are able to take just one or two steps and be airborne when it's like that. You can see that the second pilot (Paul) was 'straps tight'before he started moving and the glider was almost lifting him. It did lift him quickly but then dumped him back down again - which isn't uncommon here due to the shallow, undulating slope. Which is why I always just try to give it a good hard run!

[@alfonze24]

What sort of gliders would be able to penetrate in those winds? Kathleen on her topless was flying forward with ease from behind the ridge. I have a Falcon 4 195 and often struggle to move forward in 20 mph plus winds. Would a gecko/sport 2/3 cut through those winds easily enough or would it need to be a litesport/U2 or a topless? What was the wind speed on launch?

[@MooSurfer]

Hi David, thanks for your question... The wind speed on launch was around 20-25mph I think. Though it got stronger during the flight. In fact when I landed I was going backwards at one point when I let the glider fly at trim. With your current glider you are flying a single surface, low performance wing - which is also very large. Therefore it's not surprising you have problems penetrating in strong wind. I have a Falcon too - a dual one - so have experience of this myself. Yes, a Gecko or Sport 2/3 would be adequate for the winds we were flying in. They are intermediate gliders with a dual surface and will penetrate much better. In fact I think that Paul, who is featured in this video, is in fact flying a Gecko and he didn't report any problems. I hope that helps, Darren.

[@jwm239]

...I flew a Falcon 3 195 few times at a USA coastal site in winds about 26 MPH. I had my instructor move hang point half-inch forward as I prefer bit faster flight generally. With the speed bar, made for pleasant soaring experience, as the strong winds were otherwise smooth. Frontal system was hundreds of miles away, sky was overcast, with all ocean upwind, so there was virtually nothing to add unwanted 'texture' to the air.

[@jrtavora]

Hi Darren, I would encourage you to keep up recording videos. It is shame for this industry a lack of instructional and professional pilots giving some of their thoughts and technical views to the sport. If you go around to other products, even in niche ones like HG, you may find lots of reviews, comments and instructional videos. This is the bridge to have new entries and sustain the sport. So Darren, How about record more videos with strait comments like this one or may be describing the gliders response in some different situations, tuning up the gliders, launching and landing, what do we must expect from a intermediate, hi performance king posted and topless gliders. By the way, Plane Delta made a good suggestion to improve your audio with Muff device and more than that mixing. It was hard to listen to your voice flying. Good luck in your new competition! Keep it up!

[@MooSurfer]

Rubens Tavora thank you for your comments and positive suggestions. I now have a decent wins muffler and if you see my later videos you will see I'm much easier to hear (though it sounds like I'm in a cave!). I DO intend to keep doing the videos, both instructional, humorous, cross country and competition flying. I've got quite a few ideas and have actually have some instructional video waiting for me to edit. Just need the time to do it as in a really busy period right now! Lots more to come though, particularly in August when I have 2 competitions and a flying course.. Watch this space! :-)

[@jrtavora]

Darren, thanks for your reply! Look, Let me try out a help. I am right now mixing with a friend a music album and I would ask him to audio mix one of your videos. Nowadays, we do have a lots of amazing plugins to restore, noise reduction, EQ, compression and so on that will make enormous impact. We would do this for fun! You can reach me at [e-mail] . Good luck on competitions!

[@MooSurfer]

Hi Rubens, thanks I'll send you an email :-)

[@PlaneDelta]

Me likely, one thing I would recommend though is recording on a separate audio microphone/source with a dead cat or some sort of wind removal device. An old mobile phone would do the trick with a £10 lapel mic. Then you can either synch the voice in the video separately or just add in your classic spontaneous humour separately. Check out Peter McKinnon he has some amazing vloggs on KZbin about how important sound is in a video. But good stuff Darren, keep them coming.

[@MooSurfer]

Plane Delta good idea Steve, that's something I could try. For now I'm stuck with the current method though and don't have time to get hold of anything else before Macedonia. I might try that when I get back though. Thanks for the help mate!

[@iamnastyguy]

@@MooSurfer what is macedonia ??

[@MooSurfer]

@@iamnastyguy Macedonia is a country

[@ericoschmitt]

Thanks for posting, keep them coming!

[@SoaringMech]

Surprised to see how high you could get from ridge lift over that fairly low ridge. We fly over dunes in 20mph winds and never get more than 3x the height of the dunes. What’s going on here?

[@MooSurfer]

Well the ridge isn't very big but there is a hill in front of it so the wind is generally going up anyway. And often we get some wave influence.

[@tanyano9]

Always thought about HG having done alot of skydiving and a little PG, but one thing I've wondered is the head-up flying position..? Its looks very uncomfortable, can you talk about this topic a little...Thanks...

[@MooSurfer]

The flying position actually feels natural and is a lot less uncomfortable than it looks. That said, on a long flight (3 / 4 / 5 hours or more) it does start to feel achey on the neck and shoulders. Like anything, the more you do it, the more comfortable it gets. Maybe I should talk about this on a future video..

[@tanyano9]

@@MooSurfer yes please do...In the meantime I'm gonna get on my kitchen table in a sleeping bag belly to earth 😉......

[@michaelross1386]

Great videos, and entertaining. A little question Darren. when I see you take off, you pull on a string on the RHS bottom of your frame. What does this do? Is it something to do with trimming the sail? how does it work? , thanks, Michael

[@ericoschmitt]

Thats the VG, it pulls the crossbar to stretch the wing and the sail a bit more, making it more aerodynamic but less maneuverable. So for take offs a d landings you use it loose, and get it tighter the faster you want to go, at cost of slower turns.

[@ChrisJewell7333]

I’ve been power paragliding for little over two years now 120 flights under my belt been looking into hang gliding I guess my big question would be are you active Piloting the entire time between takeoff and landing or is there quite a few moments where you can sit in peace and relax looking at the clouds and the sun and not worrying about being pushed then of course haven to counteract that push from the wind ? When I’m flying 3000 feet above the ocean with linear wind I can just shut my motor off and glide around for 20 minutes and enjoy the view with no worries about active piloting is this something that you experience with hang gliding ? Thanks for the video and thanks for taking questions

[@MooSurfer]

Hi, I guess the answer to your question is that it depends on the conditions you are flying in. During a mid-summer flight in thermic conditions you may have to be really quite active, or during a difficult to stay up light wind flight. But in a smooth air kind of flight it's pretty much as you described on your paraglider - fairly peaceful and easy.

[@ChrisJewell7333]

@@MooSurfer Good to hear Darren ever since a child seeing hang gliders on TV it’s always been a Wonderlust to get up in a hang glider and sore through the skies.

[@billtrue3017]

Great stuff darren ,but you made one mistake , you can put your hang glider in the back of your car W W make the falcon 4 short pack into a special 6 ft carrying container .which will be my next glider so I can get it on my local SKi lift

[@MooSurfer]

Sounds like a good option Bill! That's VERY short and makes it really portable.

[@wightwalker2453]

What's the best first glider to buy, perhaps one to keep forever. Wills wing falcon, avian rio? Can you fly those in these windy conditions?

[@MooSurfer]

Best first glider... is one recommended to you by your instructor, who knows your capabilities and what wing will suit you. Avian certainly have excellent gliders for beginners yes, and very high build quality.

[@MooSurfer]

The lower performance gliders can't fly in quite as much wind as a high performance glider.

[@jamesclarkson3009]

Good video Darren. I think a lot of people (myself included) would love to fly hang gliders. However the cost of training and equipment plus the planning and time it takes to learn (and fly once sorted) thanks to the British weather limits how many people can participate. In a way I don't think this is a bad thing. If it was more accessible there would be more accidents. Hopefully I'll do it one day!

[@MooSurfer]

Actually James, it's probably not as expensive as you think. And there is plenty of good quality second hand equipment around. Learning can be done more quickly by a two week trip to Spain (without massive added expense) and the weather in the UK allows a great deal of flying! I can vouch for that, I've had tonnes of it in the UK this year. In fact tomorrow looks good....

[@CloudSurfer01]

Nicely done!

[@johannesbekker1970]

Just a question or two, obviously authorities must be informed about public events but what about individual flight ? Is this prior to any flying ?

[@MooSurfer]

Hi Johannes, no our flights are not controlled when free flying. Though we must observe airspace rules.

[@johannesbekker1970]

That one could study and pass an exam type of rules ?

[@jwm239]

Written test for Intermediate & Advanced pilots include demonstrating knowledge of air space rules, sectionals, how to know what areas to avoid, getting info on flight restrictions etc.

[@scottsthaname1]

What types of areas can you get lift in... fields... over water? How do you ride the lift up... are you slowing to ride the lift or accelerating and climbing into it?

[@MooSurfer]

This is a complicated and detailed area... There are 4 types of lift. Ridge lift - where the wind hits a ridge and has to rise to go over it. Wave lift - in strong winds where the wind hits a mountain and goes up over it, then when it comes back down again it hits another layer and bounces up again, causing a wave type of motion of the air. This is the rarest sort of lift but can get you higher than any other. Convergence - where too air masses collide with each other and rise up. This is typically found in coastal areas where the main air mass meets the incoming sea breeze. All this lift is used just by flying in a straight line in it and yes, potentially slowing the glider to make maximum use of it. The main lift utilised by hang-gliders in a cross country flight though is thermals - which are columns of rising air created by convection. To use them we circle in the rising air - the size of the circle depends on the diameter of the thermal, but often is quite tight - maybe 80 - 100m. They can be found anywhere - it is temperature difference that creates them, for example a brown plowed field will retain more heat than a nearby lake and that maybe a good place to find a thermal. Over water - this is less so, but there can be thermals over water. Possibly a more in depth answer than you expected and a very large subject area!

[@scottsthaname1]

@@MooSurfer thanks... that helps. I'll be up there soaring soon :-)

[@MooSurfer]

@@scottsthaname1 Excellent! Are you learning?

[@scottsthaname1]

@@MooSurfer right now I'm figuring out how to get into it and what equipment to get. It'll be a year or two more before I can afford to get certified and all the necessary equipment to do it safely...but in the mean time I'll just be grabbing as much knowledge as possible.

[@MooSurfer]

@@scottsthaname1 don't buy any equipment. What you need is to go to a school who will train you and advise what you need. Where in the world are you?

[@HowesAero]

Do your arms get tired holding on? Sorry, someone had to..... Great vid with a good commentary but annoying music.

[@MooSurfer]

Hi Jonathan - very good question regarding holding on... which is actually addressed in one of my upcoming videos that I'm editing. So stay tuned for the answer to your question! And you thought you were being funny.... ;-) Sorry for the music - you can't please everyone, but I'll bear it in mind for future vids.

[@mikedunn7795]

Can't understand what you are saying over the wind noise. What is that blue tube dangling from your chest?

[@MooSurfer]

Not sure about a blue tube... but the black tube is my camelback - for drinking.

[@HGAviator]

Ridge lift is also called mechanical lift. On a side note: Be careful not to get blown towards the back of the ridge/mountain. You could get caught in a rotor! A rotor is the air rotating near the back of the ridge/mountain. It could cause an accident.

[@MooSurfer]

Good advice :-)

[@kurtjensen7264]

I was a hang glider in 1972. People often asked me, aren’t you afraid of falling? To which I replied. No I am not , it’s that too quick of a stop at the end, that has my attention.

[@carlosleon7683]

Hah, nice instructions! Now some thermaling tips for the novice pilots, please! :)

[@MooSurfer]

Coming up Carlos...though in small chunks..

[@iamnastyguy]

frat as much as possible ......self driven buttjet engine !

[@nomoreprospecting]

Darren ---- besides not being able to see other pilots while in a Cloud -- have you ever heard of a pilot being hit by lightning? Does that happen? That is my biggest worry.

[@MooSurfer]

No Bryan I haven't heard of that. But in order for that to happen you would need to be flying in a thunderstorm and sucked into a thundercloud. Lightning doesn't just happen willy nilly in every cloud you know ;-)

[@edilbertosantana8307]

Great video

[@dwilliamson8539]

It's noticeable that, on a shallow slope launch, you have to maintain your 'Darren Brown take off face' for a lot longer!

[@MooSurfer]

The take-off face requirement is directly related to ground proximity. I daresay it's also my landing face....

[@rbelatamas]

Nice flight

[@Davemmmason]

We need more instruction to help us all stay safe. Dave Mason started flying 1975

[@MooSurfer]

David - with that kind of history you're the one who should be doing the instruction perhaps!

[@freeflyer]

200th like is mine :D

[@G88ManNZ]

Use a long hair 'dead cat' cover for your mic or foam cover. It will get rid of a lot of the wind noise. Also, by the end it seems you were in thermal lift since you usually don't get that high on ridge alone. Could have mentioned both these common types of lift in the same vid then. :) Would like to see a few clips of modern glider design, especially topless with pros/cons.

[@MooSurfer]

Thanks Greg - I DO actually use a full foam cover on my GoPro. Generally my sound is very good, though I've just checked and yes there seems a lot of wind noise on that video. It might be one of the days I forgot my cover. At the end... I think there was some thermal lift around yes, though also perhaps some wave or restitution lift. Yes, I see why it would have been good to talk about thermals too in this video. Nice idea about the modern hang-glider design - I'll have a think about that in a future video. Thanks for watching and thanks for you suggestions!

[@skypix777]

@@MooSurfer Great video Darren, thank you. I was amazed you kept going up and up. I was thinking as you suggested that it could be a wave. I've been in ridge lift conditions like that where the transition is so gradual you don't notice...but you're way higher than simple ridge lift will account for. I once took off from a favorite launch near Los Angeles, California, just before the road opens onto the Mojave Desert, not far from Edwards Air Force Base. Normal ridge lift height above launch was perhaps 1000 feet on a good Santa Ana Winds day (an east wind off the desert). But this day, because the wind came at just the right angle to the hill, I found myself somewhere up around 1500 feet above top and much farther out in front of the hill than I'd ever been. The main difference beyond the altitude was the absolutely smooth, no-bump air (whereas it had been pretty raggy down lower). I realized I'd flown into a local wave and I kept flying upwind to see how far it went...climbing all the while! It was definitely a wave, spit off by a ridge about a mile or two upwind. That day I and my mates got up to about 7700' MSL...almost 4500 feet above takeoff! And we could boat around in a vastly more expansive lift band than usual. I'm sure you've been in similar conditions. it's kind of magical, like a wonder wind at day's end that just won't quit. Thanks again, love your videos. 'm getting back in (at 76) because of all the flying I did as an aviation writer/photographer, and all the flying craft I had the good fortune to fly, from electric ultralights to supersonic fighter jets, hang gliding is the purest to me. It suits my desire for being up in the air and having a bit of adventure thrown in. No droning from point A to B with beaucoup noise for me, sir!

[@MooSurfer]

@@skypix777 thank you - that day you described sounds truly awesome! You're right, it truly is magical flying in wave isn't it... feels almost like you're not flying, not a bump or a ripple in the air. It can become very surreal...

[@justinf1343]

I think the videos are great, but the BHPA need to allow clubs to teach new pilots. There are too few schools in the UK

[@MooSurfer]

I think you'll find the BHPA are doing all they can to help with new pilot training and I think there are instances where they allow this. But the big thing they have to consider, I believe, is insurance. They are bound by the rules set by the insurance companies.

[@thomasnappo6309]

Well done...l subbed 👏 Love to see you..set up..and tear down..

[@jamesbarros950]

I will probably get a short packable falcon... but I hope not to need to go through that process very often.

[@MooSurfer]

Short packing is usually a pain! Though if you're interested in short gliders, take a look at Avian gliders.

[@jamesbarros950]

@@MooSurfer My only reason for wanting one is hope that I could come fly in beautiful places like all your wonderful launches. I would never do it on the regular.

[@sanalzam1]

Im 59 not in the best shape am I still can learn how to hangglide?

[@MooSurfer]

It depends how you learn - if you do it on aerotow you don't need quite as much fitness. But I learned running up and down little hills, getting progressively bigger. That needs a little bit more fitness - you would have to judge it yourself. But once qualified, Hanggliding doesn't have to be particularly strenuous if you don't want it to be.

[@johnfetzer9637]

Darren how long have you been doing it ??

[@MooSurfer]

Over 20 years now... though with a big gap between 2005 and 2011. I'm still learning.

[@marinbros2882]

Hello everyone, where in europe is the best place for to learn deltaplaning, i need adress please and contact

[@MooSurfer]

Where in Europe are you based?

[@marinbros2882]

@@MooSurfer i am from republic of Moldova after Romania

[@oliverchitty]

Is that Kathleen rigg? World Women's number 1?

[@MooSurfer]

Ollie Chitty yes it is!! How could you tell?!

[@siluc415]

thank you for this training video...we need osmething like that to avoid that hanglider disappears....where is this nice hill?

[@flipul]

Brilliant!! Keep at it Darren :)

[@PlaneDelta]

What’s happened to the van dude? Suspense is too much! It’s Tuesday already!!!

[@MooSurfer]

Sorry Luca, I missed your comment. Glad you like it, thanks for the feedback! The hill is called Stannage Edge and it's in Derbyshire in England. Here is a google maps link to show it: goo.gl/maps/UUVsAWd4vP62 Cheers, Darrenn.

[@kavanaavealalo4906]

We're is this place?

[@MooSurfer]

This is a place called Stannage Edge, which is in Derbyshire in the UK.

[@kevin_6217]

Didn't see him land, wonder how he got down?...

[@MooSurfer]

I had a camera failure I'm afraid! I landed safely in the normal fashion though...

[@Владимир.иванович.сибирякСторо]

Класс,,👍👍👍👍👍

[@sciencelad8286]

Her take off was not aggressive enough. She was going to a walk in the park. That’s scary. well, should be Nose into the wind, tips leveled, glider firmly held on the shoulders, firm grip on downtubes, only proceed when you know you are in control, aggressive run with the right angle of attack …off to a good start.

[@MooSurfer]

I'll say nothing - you can tell her ;-) She is a very experienced pilot who has flown this site for 40 years and holds some women's world records...

[@sciencelad8286]

@@MooSurfer She’s more than likely a better pilot than I am. I try to never let my guard down, and never be overconfident, especially during take-off and landing 😊👍. By the way, I really appreciate all of your videos. Keep it up 👍

[@MooSurfer]

@@sciencelad8286 I totally agree with you - ESPECIALLY during take-off and landing. As a coincidence, yesterday I went walking (not flying) at this very site. My friends were here flying and one had a cut on his eye. He said he crashed on take-off - in exactly the place you see on this video. In fact... I just re-watched the video and saw the guy in question is the one taking off right after Kathleen on this video! And also having watched it - I totally agree about BOTH the take-offs. Not the best ones. So yes, you are 100% right. And thank you - I'm glad you like the videos!

[@sciencelad8286]

Your microphone was turned away from your mouth. That’s why it’s hard to hear you 😊

[@MooSurfer]

Actually no - the microphone you see on my helmet is just the radio. The actual video mic is just part of the gopro. I don't have any fancy setup, just a sound muffler to dampen wind noise. Over the years I have tried various systems, right down to having a separate system recording sound with a mic at my mouth. This system turned out the best in terms of the balance of audio quality and ease of editing. Sometimes the sound slips if a) I don't face the gopro when speaking or b) the muffler on it slips a bit. But usually it's ok.