Harbor Freight's Hercules 2.5 aH battery gets a capacity test and partial teardown

[@jeffscomp]

I think the Hercules stuff is not near as bad as it gets criticized for.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

did someone pay you to write that comment? YES... me... or at least if i did pay someone to... it would be exactly that!

[@jeffscomp]

TRY to HELP you so you don’t think it’s that good?

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

jeffscomp i do think its good. Just as good as the advertising suggests. Problem is people are not looking at the HF ads closely. The newest dewalt tech is better by a fair amount... But the HF ad references older dewalt drill models

[@Bob_Adkins]

I don't think Jeff is buying HF's deceptive ads. I think he is just saying that Hercules it's not as horrible as some are reporting. I buy only DeWalt, so I have no dog in the hunt. I think the Hercules line is a good bargain. If you really want to do some good, pound on the battery manufacturers that stamp 3000 Ah on cells that get 500 Ah. BTW, sometimes it takes several gentle charge-discharge cycles to get full capacity out of a pack. My Roomba Li-Ion pack almost doubled after 5 cycles. (yes, I have an iMaX charger/discharger too)

[@mskehan19]

TRY to HELP you why are they better technology please give specific reasons

[@theopiner402]

Excellent work, these Hercules products are proving to be worth their salt. So many folks are already biased against Harbor Freight, I think they let that bias stand in the way of reason.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

+Ian Johnson thanks for the comment. Agreed! I will continue to test. Goodnight.

[@rbaker4910]

The difference in capacities between AvE's testing and yours is all down to discharge rates, AvE's test rig was pulling 10A, your tester was pulling 0.3A. Great test that shows the difference discharge rates make, 10A+ is more realistic of a power tool load. 18650s are rate by capacity and discharge current, as discharge current increases capacity falls. The best cells balance both. Better cells like Samsung 25r5 used in a lot of tools, can deliver 2500mah and 20a continuous discharge.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

Right, but no company prints capacity at 10A draw at this time. He did the test then claimed it was "not xx amp hours" so HF were lying about the capacity. They weren't. It's like driving a car that gets 60mpg at wide open throttle/110mph for nearly the entire tank and finding it does "not get 60mpg". well duh.

[@M0F0750il]

@@TRYtoHELPyou R Baker is right about the discharge rate and that's why AvE and you got different results. Your 0.3 discharge rate would be more like powering a fan or light not a power tool. just like you mpg reference, car manufactures test under perfect conditions(flat surface, no wind and nothing in the car but a small driver) to get the highest mpg they can, so they aren't lying but most drivers won't get that high of mpg. HF is making some much better tools (I have a Couple)but to make them that much less expensive then Dewalt some corners had to be cut. Who made the 18650 cells in the HF batter pack?

[@rolandm9750]

Discharge rate of 300mA is really not enough, I agree. But testing at 10A is a bit high as well as a single row of cells is only going to give the rated Ah with a current draw that one cell was rated for by the manufacturer (in this case Samsung). That is def. not going to be a 10A draw. However one should at least discharge with 1C discharge rate meaning about 2.5A in this case. I suspect at that rate the result would still be about the same, because that's within what the cells were rated with, by Samsung.

[@markzamiechowski5352]

what type of cells are inside?

[@brianterrill9587]

AvE is a Mining Engineer up near Kamloops up in Canada. I take everything with a bit of salt.

[@gericjenkins]

I'm curious how consistent they are. A lot of the grumblings I've heard about Harbor Freight tools is not necessarily capability or quality but rather consistency. "You may get lucky and get a good one or you may not" type of thing.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

+Eric Jenkins whats up man?! Yeah, i have always had the consistancy of "you get what you pay for" from them. But to find the truth in the consistancy would require testing several seperate items of the same model. I dont think many people have done that besides their QC department (does one exist?) . Rarely are two customers the same though. You probablu can find consistant quality but different people rate the quality differently. The actual testing and demonstration of actual testing is always good, as long as its done in a conventional way. The dude AvE didnt do a lagetimate capacity test, yet he was claiming a capacity that was much lower than the label said. It is true, of HF is lieing about these products, they can be fined heavily by tye FTC and possibly may have to do some sort of reparations or something to existing customers who have bought these drills. My guess is it wont happen because the drills seem to be pretty decent.

[@johnc8572]

Awesome info on the Hercules battery. I do have a question regarding the terminals on top of the battery. The + & - connections are known. What are the inner 2 connectors for? Temperature sensor? I'm guessing the balance is done by the board. Basically, I do not have a hercules charger but I do have a battery balance charger. I want to charge the battery without taking it apart. Thanks in advance for the info.

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

Very well Shown. Ave may need to question his battery testing methods I would say! Very well done! Another KZbinr tore apart a New Black 12AH Hercules in it contained 21700 SAMSUMG cells FWIW (if your watching this in 2024)

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

@@PatriotPaulUSA thanks for the good words. Nice, I may have seen that video but I'm unsure... Those are really cool batteries.

[@JuliansRandomProject]

:D welcome to Peukert's law. 0.3amps vs 9.3amps (AvE) discharge. Would love to see this test run again at 9 amps (or whatever the drill pulls during nominal use)

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

+JuliansRandomProject that does not bear anything on a proper measure of capacity. There will be capacity loss in heat due to higher amperage. Take a tesla p100 and drive it 150mph. You wont get tue rated mileage yet the stated capacity and literal capacity does not change. No matter how inefficently you pull it, the energey was stored.. If i could measure a 15 amp pull with test equipment i would. What i had for this video was an imax b6ac at its max discharge for ~21-16v. Do you know of accurate test equipment that can draw 300watts? Also, that would only match a "pro" who pulls the trigger and holds it from full to empty...(look at my first test video, i go nearly 7 mins straight w no issues, just heat and still half a battery. Amd it wasnt full when i started)

[@JuliansRandomProject]

On second look Peukert's law applies more to Seal Lead Acid than Li-Ion. In my experience slower discharge would still yield slightly better Wh. The most accurate discharge @ 300W would be a known resistance (like a thick 1ohm resistor), a multimeter and a stopwatch. Looks like you got ~40Wh from your battery (still shy of 50) and AvE got 34. Another diff in testing, yours was at the cell, his was through the PCB. Good chance the factory used 2.3Ah cells in yours and 1.7Ah cells in his.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

+JuliansRandomProject i dissagree with different cells being used. I would bet money they are the same cells from the same production line. His start voltage was not from a fully charged state (nearly 21volts) and his discharge voltage was not to an acceptable low for testing. he stayed above the mormal discharge (3.3v per cell/16.5v) when he ended the test. as for the usable capacity, the displayed capacity is never the usable capacity from EVs to all the power tools ive ever seen or read about. My leaf with its 24kWh battery only allowed around ~19kWh (new) of actual capacity use. I will get my hands on more tool batteries and test more. Ave is sloppy at best in his test. That is a simple fact. Unless he stated the precise salinity he had mixed in that cup of water down to the hundredth of a percent and what minerals additional to salt were in that test fluid, the test was sloppy. Regarding "from the board" you will notice after my imax stopped the test, my drill still ran, meaning the board would let more stored energy out of the battery, so i did not go beyond the allowance of the board. .. i like talking about batteries. What else do you got? And/or what company manufactures 1.7ah cells? Check out richard lloyds channel. Hes got the battery testing thing down pat. I follow his methods moreso. He draims these 18650s down to 2.5 on some of his tests when he wants a true full capacity (at tge damage of the cell tho)

[@JuliansRandomProject]

So many variables in these tests. We should try and settle on a few things. I'm putting together a video right now with some Peukert testing (likely to show little effect on Li-Ion, against my earlier assumption). I'll check out richard lloyds channel. Are you kidding about the water used? :) since the amperage/voltage was measured for us to see, one could just apply ohms law to get the resistance of his unique blend of water and nichrome wire.

[@JuliansRandomProject]

Posted my findings. kzbin.info/www/bejne/hJTFkJh3d9qdp5Y&lc

[@SillyOmega]

Thanks for this test.

[@rolandm9750]

Would like to see this done with the newer Herc batteries (all black) as they have apparently cheaped out on the cells in them. The older (blue & black) batts have Samsung cells inside as can be seen here. However the newer all-black batts have cheap/unknown MIC cells apparently (not sure about 20V but I opened a new 12V and definitely some hard to identify cells in there). Would be interesting to see a test of not only in capacity but in performance, compared to the older ones. Part of the marketing for Herc batteries was that they use, "industry leading cells" which was true insofar that they were actually using quality cells that the "big name" companies might use in their batts. This is no longer true, yet the statements remain the same. That said they *are* pretty darn cheap batteries so one can only complain so much.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

I mean, if they say they are Samsung still.... I don't even remember what they said! Ha. Will rewatch. But, it's worth mentioning, there is a lot of good quality stuff being made by our brothers and sisters over in China. It's not all bad. They are leading the world with battery stuff for electric vehicles and lifepo4 batteries as far as I know.

[@brent9020]

Dont assume "big name" cell brands are make outside of China. Many of these manufacturers have factories in China too. Also, don't knock something manufactured in China until you have reason to do so, which is the point of this channel as I understand it. (unpopular opinion: there are Chinese brand cells that outperform Samsung cells)

[@PatriotPaulUSA]

Another KZbinr tore apart a New Black 12AH Hercules in it contained 21700 SAMSUMG cells

[@joewheels6027]

Cool video and thanks for the detail test. On my end, if my battery is out of juice, just charge it and forget about it.

[@Blakehx]

What do you think about the Kobalt tools... I know you can buy replacement lithium batteries for like $20!

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

+Blakehx I think they are ok however I don't have any direct experience with them, so I am not able to subjectively say. This guys videos are great and often kobalt related kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZ3JlayIn89oiaM

[@davidthurman3963]

You should have mentioned the cells used. I saw one recently they were samsung in the 8 amp. Its top of the line and i have started to switch to harbor freight. Which btw is identical to dewalt. American designed in california built in china.

[@charlestatakis9363]

Good work! I really liked the battery performance tracking software. I'll have to load and use it sometime in the future. After many of us migrate to constructing our power wall electrical backup system we'll need to evaluate cells quickly, thoroughly.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

+Charles Tatakis hi Charles, yes the software is cool but man does it crash. Check out richard Lloyd's channel. He has great ways of tesring batteries.

[@charlestatakis9363]

Thanks! Now that's a help where I avoided frustration.

[@BenJamin-ou7kd]

Only the older dewalt 2ah batteries had that aluminum cooling platr, none of the newer ones, (2014 and on) have it. Too me it looks like they copied the design from those older batteries

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

+ben ten YES! According to the tool guy at my local lowes, the model that is next to the Hercules drill in the ad from harbor freight is the 20v max, the older design. Main difference between the drills from then and the newest dewalt drills is that the new ones are brushless motors. The drill i got is definately brushed. You can see them thru the venting. I wanna get a hold of those older dewalt batteries and drills.

[@Stevesbe]

What brand cells ?

[@ЖизньнаЗемле-н6к]

Hello ! Please test battery Kobalt 4 a.h. or 5 a.h.

[@HeadphoneHarvey]

Well done and well documented. I enjoy your videos and AvE's very much and understand your comments about the different results. In general, HFT has a big challenge of changing their brand perception but they're off to a good start. I bought the impact driver and am impressed with it. The new hand tools are good, too. Is Hercules a "DeWalt killer"? Unlikely. They are a credible alternative but their hyperbole doesn't help their cause with everyone.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

Fred Zalupski thanks for the comment. I do believe their (HFT) statements are to be taken litteraly however fine print is never good. Gotta read the fine print. MAN... I have been so busy lately... I wanna make more videos regarding these tools and a teardown of two side by side but I just don't have the hammer DeWalt :/...

[@hostilityy]

AvE has an erroneous big mouth sometimes. I still wanna see him teardown the 20v xt lithium big impact that has 1200ftlb torque

[@jeffscomp]

hostilityy he’s in Canada and I don’t think hf has stores there yet. He may get one someday though.

[@keysautorepair6038]

The battery’s are highstar brand.

[@kitsurubami]

wow well done! I've watched plenty of AvE videos and I'm surprised he got something wrong (that or he had a bad bat). Good job with your testing!

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

thanks for the comment. Im sure the battery he had was fine. he was talking about starting voltages and end voltages and his numbers were simply not normal to start. The battery dropped to 18 volts right away? at a sub 200 watt draw, that shouldnt happen and im sure that the battery wasnt fully charged at start.. His method ot testing .... well.. I wonder if it repeatable and he has done it on any of the other tools he has tested... the exact same way.. well. im off to his channel now to see...

[@seanbyrne7835]

Fact, your valid test show 2.3ah, so HF can roundup and and call it 2.5ah and not get sued for a truth in advertising violation. Also a Fact, AVE ran a vaild test and showed a 1.69ah which he rounded down to 1.5ah. The difference between the two tests was the discharge rate. You discharged at constant 0.3A, AVE's discharge rate averaged out to 9A. Discharge rate has a major impact on the usable capacity you can get out of a li-ion battery, as seen in the difference in the two tests. Li-ion cells are sold with an amp-hour specification and discharge rating. Cells made for a higher discharge rate will typically have a lower amp-hour capacity, and if you run the batteries above their specified discharge rate it shortens their life. Also, the lower discharge rate, higher capacity cells tend to be cheaper. So HF is playing a numbers game, giving what you perceive to be a higher capacity battery. But when you use the battery pack for its intended purpose, a drill that can draw well over 10amp, you only get about 1.5ah and It will also reach its end of life much sooner than a 1.5ah pack designed for a high output rate. AVE tests painted a much more accurate assessment of the battery pack in the role it was intended for. HF is giving you a battery that will fail sooner so it can print "better" specifications on the box. This is why HF only has the 90 day warranty.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

What voltage did ave start at and end at? How did he measure the capacity that was lost as heat within the pack from the higher discharge?

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

Please also consider that usable capacity does not change but how you use it efficiently or not is the difference.if you put one gallon of gas in a Prius and one in an f150, do you see a difference in useable capacity? No,it's still a gallon. Just how you choose to task that energy os what changed. Full tank, just the truck, and do just stop and go traffic for that tank and then do highway only for another tank. Is usable capacity different? No. If you filled it up both times the capacity is the same you are just using it differently. You will see what may appear to be some difference in capacity but it's not a capacity difference. Ave poorly measured at best.

[@seanbyrne7835]

Start and end voltages are in his video along with the start and end ampere reading. Why would or should he have to measure waste heat. The loss to heat is something we want to avoid, it reduces the amount of usable energy. Maximizing usable energy, for the designed purpose, is the goal. Waste heat output within the battery is NOT part of usable capacity.

[@seanbyrne7835]

It is a little more complex than you would like to think. Look up some charts of battery capacity versus discharge rate, also look at capacity versus temperature. The chemical reaction is not as efficient in providing usable energy when operating outside its design parameters. Not only is it less efficient, it leads to premature failure. HF has made an good effort to mitigate this by adding the heatsink. The heatsink will let you push the battery pack pretty hard for short duration and keep heat in the cells down until you heat up that whole block of aluminium. Lets simplify your gasoline example to just the engines, fuel system and cooling instead of cars and trucks. Lets look at a pair of engines. One engine designed to run most efficient at an output of 10kW and the other most efficient at 20kW. Let further state that both have the exact same BSFC, Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, when running a peak efficiency. BSFC is a measure of amount of fuel used per kilowatt hour of output on the drive shaft. When not running at those power setting you will get less output for a given amount of fuel. So now both engines produce the same amount of kilowatt-hours when running at their designed max efficiency output per unit of gasoline. The 20kW engine will just produce it in a half the time time, higher discharge rate. But what happens when you decide to run the smaller engine at an output of 20kW. It will do it but it, will not be as efficient, the BSFC will be higher, so more fuel required per unit of output. So now with both engines at 20kW output and given the same amount of fuel, the smaller one will run out first, producing less kilowatt-hours for the same amount of fuel. Now it is time to package our power units into a nice boxes, the same size for both; fuel, cooling, and engine. The 20kW engine will be a bit bigger and your designed cooling system designed for the 20kW output will be a bit bigger, so the less room for fuel. So now you have manufacture of 10kW unit state "I'm way more better than 20kW unit because I make X kilowatt-hours more on a single charge of fuel" based off the 10kW output rate. Which is all fine and good if what you want to power only requires 10kW. But, if both units are being sold to power a system that needs 20kW then the claim, while accurate, is more than a bit dishonest. Because it is not going to get that performance in the role it is being sold for. Also if the 10kW unit is only designed with cooling to support the 10kW output, the unit would be subject to overheating and a shorter life. The battery is not just a fuel tank. It is the whole power unit and subject to similar design constraints. We as the users of the whole system are not concerned with best performance of power unit under of set of parameters that is best suited for the power unit. What impacts the user is how the power unit performs when in the whole system. When used in a drill, under all but the lightest loading, we will not see the performance that HF claims. So is HF making false claims? No. Are they giving the information needed to make an apples to apples comparison? NO! In HF favor, they know their market, the typical user for this will not be a professional using it hard for 10 to 20 minutes straight. It will be the home user drilling one or two holes setting it down picking it back up 5 minutes later to drive a screw. That user will probably be pleased with this. The guy that gets hurt by this is home user decides to build his own deck, they will end up wishing they spent the extra money on the unit built for heaver use.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

Sean Byrne while I appreciate the example but you did not place focus on capacity. In your explaination you did not talk on the point of the 33.7~kWh per gallon of gas or the amount of gas being the focus. As for the cell resistance, these are good cells. The capacity, no matter how you use it, is there. Gallons of gas are gallons of gas. As for the drill and battery performance please see the video where I use this thing. I beat it with a bad bit trying to drill thru steel. And I do more drilling after. It outlasts my DeWalt drills hands down battery for battery that is... The 1.5 ah DeWalt batteries. I did measure those batteries exactly the same way as I did this battery and they are spot on 1500 mAh. But they don't last like the harbor freight battery in real world use I put up my fence with deckmate screws and this battery outlasted DeWalt by a lot. The DeWalt 1.5aHr.. they die fast, these herculese ones dont. the warranty is where DeWalt defeats Hercules entirely. After that is the quality, mine is broke already the hammer switch is jacked... And it's out of warranty. You did not answer the question though of what voltage did ave start at? Please go back and look. I remember him not starting his test at a fully charged voltage. That is not a proper way to start a test. Also, "because brain" is not acceptable in actual measuring ever. While I understand it to be regards to tolerance it was not explained appropriately. The dude is an entertainer more than he is precise. I appreciate him for that. Show me his video where he does this identical test with other batteries at the same voltages please. I have searched and I could not find it. Real world use these batteries last long per charge.

[@addisonlather5536]

Battery obsession 😳

[@ariip]

Reality check everyone!! 2.5 ah cells will read 2.3?? for virtually all your cells in your tools. That is not a lie. Actual readings and use after break in will yield numbers slightly lower. That is an acceptable margin of error. Again there can be a slight margin of error within the battery and the test equipment. VS 1.5 is not acceptable or even 2.0, but 2.3 is well within acceptable margin of error for a 2.5 battery. UNDERSTAND THIS AS WELL: AH RATINGS ARE GIVEN BY THE CELL MANUFACTURER. THE TOOL COMPANIES ARE USING THE BATTERY OEM RATINGS. IE: PANASONIC, SAMSUNG, LG, ARE THE ONES RATING THE BATTERIES.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

Ari P it's a strange argument that keeps going on. It will continue though. I find it sad that there is no account for energy loss due to heat during high draw applications. That heat costs energy/watts. watts that the user is using. Those watts go unaccounted for in many arguments, regardless of if the heat is wanted or not. The definition of capacity is also part of the arguments. It's similar to HP at the wheels and HP at the crank, for automobiles. Which one is which? What we don't have is thorough comparisons with regard to AvEs testing. I must say though you can't get 55wH from a battery that, if true, was fully depleated... And then only charged with 35 ish watt hours.... U won't get any more from it during a drain (referring to AvEs video)

[@Bob_Adkins]

This is the honest truth. Thank you!

[@enr1997widget]

How can 5, 18650 batteries only produce 2,300mah?

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

they are in series. If they were in parallel then they would multiply the mAh instead of voltage.

[@nonyourbuz5805]

...BTW...nice test...

[@chriss1914]

Doing a capacity check on these or any 18650 cell at .3 amps is invalid. The higher the current draw the more the capacity drops. If it is a drill that has good power it should be drawing closer to 20 amps at load which is harder on the cells. If you can't provide a load that high or at least 10 amps you are wasting your time.

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

it is a measure. i cant measure the thermal heat loss at the higher loads. so i measure ALL the electricity stored. how you use it, no matter how inefficient, is up to you. capacity ratings and output do not have to be Wide Open Throttle. if the measure is 3inch deck screws into solid oak, then there you go, ask the tool companies to start using that. until then, mah precisely measured will be mah precisely measured. draw ten or twenty amps AND precisely measure how much energy is being turned into heat from the cells, i cant do that and im not aware of a tool that can precisely measure that. no matter how you inefficiently choose to use the energy there is a way to measure what it stores. that is what i did.

[@rbaker4910]

@@TRYtoHELPyou Correct, but its a marketing ploy to advertise a battery as 50wh, when it can only deliver that under artificial test conditions, Even the flashlight is drawing more than 0.3a. The heat lost is inefficacy that cannot be counted as electrical energy. The tools will never be able to realize the 50wh capacity as they are always going to have high draw rates, 10A+. Other manufactures packs deliver much closer to their stated capacities at high draw rates. While not a lie, Its definitely deceptive marketing.

[@nickekholm]

I hope AVE responds. It'll be nice to see his perspective on this. Maybe his battery wasn't as scookum as yours?

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

How great would that be. a response would be good. Did you see how he tested his battery? Its not conventional, lets say. Which is cool. But more importantly, if he is accurate, then we should notify the FTC about what harbor freight is doing. What i have found is this... The battery board in this battery lets the voltage drop futher than what i droped it in testing (that would yield even more capacity). I think their stickers and advertising are on point. AVE did some math in his video and carried over the remainder of "brain" in at least one calculation. I believe it was adding an additional minute specifically. He is simply off and i think the battery he had was fine. Meaning 2.5aH. The part that wasn't fine was the methods of testing. This is not a discount to his content overall. He is funny and reminds me of some people i have come across in life that i now miss (personality). His content is entertaining and in the video of his i linked, he shows a LOT of information by the way of imagery. It is interesting seeing him test the plastic for its melting or burning point... i just dont know the importance overall i suppose. What i want to see more of is this tool getting used. I went to lowes a day ago and the guy in the tool department suggested some things and i will be continuing tests and eventually i hope to destroy this drill to shed light on the truth. Best thing for me to do at this point is to get a hold of one of the 20v max lithium batteries from dewalt and see what the results are. I know its 1.5 aH but what if they are conservative with that and the same exact test showes more capacity than advertised? My experience leads me to believe that DeWalt has just carried over EXACTLY what the cell manufacture says and put 1.5 on their batteries. Same thought about the harbor freight battery i test here...

[@robswrenches9501]

TRY to HELP you Hopefully, word will get back to him. Who am I kidding, I'm sure that he's been notified of his findings being challenged. 😃 This'll be interesting.

[@jusb1066]

when he was called out over his testing for the HF impact, he didnt do anything about it, calling the guy who used actual testing equipment a liar and not his hokey method of connecting two impacts together....

[@drayburn50]

Batteries are crap don't hold up

[@nonyourbuz5805]

...Sure You Can Lie....Trump Does it All the Time !!!...

[@TRYtoHELPyou]

No lies here. You are not forced to believe....