Doctor Who's Fantasy Problem

[@HarboWholmes]

Scatter some salt over at the Patreon to summon fantastical creatures of your own: www.patreon.com/harbowholmes

[@andrewdreasler428]

One thing that RTD seems to have forgotten about good Fantasy: within the framework of its world, IT MAKES SENSE. Take Tolkien, for example. Once we learn that Bilbo's Invisibility Ring is actually The One Ring, it follows all the rules of that artifact; it followed those rules all along, we just weren't aware of all the details. Gandalf "powers up" when dies as the Gray and is sent back to finish his work as the White, but he doesn't suddenly go throwing around fireballs and lightning bolts. Sauron doesn't suddenly hain the power to manifest a body so he can wrestle Frodo for the Ring. The Lore always follows its rules, even if we don't know them yet. The lore of Doctor who uses "aliens", "higher-dimensional beings" and "sufficiently advanced science" to explain the appearent supernatural. It doesn't just get magic for the sake of having magic. And all the fourth wall breaks prior to RTD pt2 were 'leans' on the fourth wall that could be explained in-universe. The Doctor 'looks to the camera' when talking to himself or 'thinking loudly.' In Heaven Sent, the Doctor is in his "mind Tardis," explaining to himself how he got out of the predicament; it's all in his head, so a glance at the camera is accepted. In Blink, the Angels never move on screen, even when unobserved by the characters, until a character moves between the Angel and the camera: WE count as observers, which makes the episode quietly more unnerving. The claim of "It doesn't have to make sense" ITSELF doesn't make sense. What do you call a story that doesn't make sense? A fragmented dream, a piece of stream-of-consciousness drivel, "the ranting of a fool, all sound and fury, signifying nothing." (Ick, I'm going to have to watch my set for the rest of the day for having invoked the Scottish Play. It's considered cursed for actors, however, All the World's a Stage. (See, a reason behind the caution, IT MAKES SENSE within the story framework))

[@vullord666]

Yes! All of this. As a fantasy lover, it's incredibly insulting the implication that "fantasy" means "I can do whatever I want and don't have to explain it". Good magic systems are literally just science. They have entire rule systems and laws like physics. I actually really liked the witches in series 3 that were from another reality and the explanation was "they still follow rules; they just chose a different set of them". Good fantasy worlds are stupid hard to make and have to earn their place because (especially hard fantady) writers are building entire new worlds with whole systems and laws and rules for the world. At the end of the day good fantasy worlds are still logical and grounded just within the rules of their world (which they've made from mostly scratch and that really takes a lot of work). Even good fairy tales establishes good rules and follows them. It's frustrating having writers take a piss on the fantasy genre and use it as an excuse for not writing consistently. Any Magical or fantasy worlds make sense and that's just called good writing.

[@Notallowed101]

No, you have to be gaslit more by 'true fans', "this is how it's always been", "it's never made sense", "It's just a childrens show"

[@andrewdreasler428]

@@Notallowed101 I think you forgot to add your 'sarcasm' tag. Let me get that for you. /s

[@SageWon-1aussie]

My concern is that "it's more fantasy now" is just an excuse for not being as clever as it used to be. My Dad used to routinely watch Doctor Who, which got me interested in the show when I was a kid. We sat down to watch this season when the Devil's Chord episode came out. Started at The Church on Ruby Road, then Space Babies, then The Devil's Chord. My Dad looked at me, said "That was stupid, I don't think I'll bother anymore." Truly heartbreaking. I blame Chibnall for making dumb storylines more acceptable.

[@moonlitlex]

i said this in my review of doctor who too but i think the main problem with how rtd is writing fantasy is that he doesn't seem to actually understand fantasy. fantasy worlds also require explanations. the whoniverse has plenty of actual fantasy too, like the torchwood episode "small worlds" that literally has fae and doesn't explain them using science fiction terms. but the difference between that and what rtd is doing is that rtd seems to view fantasy as a kind of magic wand or a card you can play to get out of writing a world that makes sense. rtd isn't actually writing fantasy. he is writing whatever the fuck he feels like and then calling it fantasy. he doesn't realize that fantasy still has things like rules and cause and effect, so his "fantasy" stories are completely lacking cause and effect

[@HeidiSholl]

Not only does fantasy have rules, but a vast number of fantasy books have additional books/ sources dedicated to lore! Because fantasy writers want their audience to be immersed in their world building. I mean, the most famous example is JRR Tolkien, who lets be honest wrote Lord of the Rings specifically so he could create his own language 😂. There's a reason many fantasy books come with maps! It's not a "get out of making things make sense" card.

[@tardissins7512]

Well, when you realize he doesn’t particularly care about writing actual decent stories anymore, it makes sense

[@The-Busy-Beeeee]

@@tardissins7512yea I think he’s just tired of writing it now tbh there needs to be new writers on the team so they can have fresh ideas and eyes to write better stories

[@tardissins7512]

@@The-Busy-Beeeee Agreed, and people who want to actually write Doctor Who. I said this during Chibnall’s run too, that I’m sure whatever show they’re trying to make is fine and maybe even good in its own right, but it’s not Doctor Who anymore. I think the show died almost a decade ago and since then it’s been skinwalked by something else.

[@The-Busy-Beeeee]

@tardissins7512 absolutely I think it started to crumble during matts era with the whole river song situation and stuff like that in the end it made absolutely no sense and was incredibly convoluted and just a not well written or thought out story in my opinion. And I do agree it started to become something completely different

[@katokianimation]

RTD thinks fantasy means you don't have to think about anything. Meanwhile real fantasies have their own languages, maps, history books, magic system that is more complex than a math exam.

[@Rocksteady72a]

Brandon Sanderson would have a laughing fit looking at any of RTD's attempts at fantasy writing

[@vullord666]

Something that was really frustrating this season is how none of the episodes really built upon each other. Not even in terms of persistent character development and much less in terms of new lore. All that needed to happen was a clear statement that at the edge of the universe the Doctor invoking superstition opened the doors to a whole new reality. A reality he visited in his first Incarnation that wasn't just home to the toy maker but many, many more fanastastical like beings. A reality that is perhaps the same reality as the one mentioned in Shakespeare's witches episode way back in series 3. A reality that just chose a different set of rules (magic) and is seemingly more powerful when allowed into a reality that doesn't have those rules. After clearly establishing that in giggle (not hinting at stuff), the next special and rest of series 14 should have built upon this idea. Introduce to viewers exactly what this will start to mean for the show in the Christmas special and then have a two parter opening (the devil's chord) that gives more credence to the overall threat and how much this changes all of space and time in Doctor Who's main reality. From there we could see the idea clearly stated and built upon each episode. Something like 73 is so frustrating because it doesn't really seem to have a purpose to me. Like modern Doctor Who represented a significant shift in story telling and has always given us standalone regular adventure episodes, but the show always took something with it each episode. Some character development or exploring lore or whatever. But in series 14 episodes feel more disconnected than ever and instead of showing us how they're connected they just kinda tell us it's been connected the whole time without it making any sense. That whole sequence in Empire Death talking about the 73 yards perception filter and Jack again felt like an Easter egg... it should not feel like an Easter egg within it's own season. I LOVE fantasy, because good fantasy represents a good writer crafting a whole new world where anything WAS possible and you're invited into their world with very real and grounded rules after they worked hard to craft a well written story. It's incredibly insulting to have writers (RTD included) act like fantasy can be used to handwave away having rules and an explanation. Especially when in the past HE GOT THIS RIGHT. Honestly though, the scariest thing is modern who gaslighting it's viewers by acting like we made up needing an explanation or overexaggerate things the show makes out to be important. Like the whole thing with Ruby's mother. That was just disgraceful and insulting and I feel like this isn't the last time we'll see something like it.

[@SageWon-1aussie]

Disney seems to have bought into toxic media. That insulting their audience creates the most engagement, so should be deliberately engaged in.

[@The-Busy-Beeeee]

@@SageWon-1aussieit’s infecting everything nowadays Disney descendants has gone to absolute shit for the exact reason that NOTHING is explained and or shown anymore. What ever happened to good stories

[@The-Busy-Beeeee]

Also your so right about this

[@emperorholocron8278]

The amount of times over the last few months I’ve said I feel the silliness aspect of the show has been lent into too much and been met with “Doctor Who has been silly since 1963!” or “You just hate fun!” is really grating 😭

[@CashelOConnolly]

Agreed,Matt Smith’s Doctor would be more suited to this nonsense (except Dot & Bubble)✌🏻🔷

[@carsforever4002]

Fr I hate the “you just hate fun!” Argument like the fun still has to actually be good to enjoy it lmao 😂

[@AllThePiecesMatter_]

You just hate fun. Doctor Who has been silly since 1963. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[@vullord666]

I hate how much the internet always has to dismiss and discredit anything. Like unless you're being a toxic troll saying the same thing over and over, your opinion should be met with some semblance of care or not at all. It partly seems like people who like stuff these days are in so deep they refuse to believe it has any flaws and make excuses at any turn and then at the opposite end of the spectrum people do much the same for opposite reasons. I don't know. I'd just think someone who truly likes what they watch can point out flaws or wouldn't care that someone else takes some issue with it.

[@vullord666]

​@@carsforever4002^This. Bad writing isn't fun. Doctor Who can and has made me enjoy a literal concept of a statue as a nightmarish alien race. That was horrifying and anywhere else would have been incredibly fantasy not hard Sci fi, and I still had tons of fun watching it (well... until they were overused) because it was well written and they had good rules.

[@andrewainsworth9246]

You know what you just summed up exactly how I've been feeling but without being able to articulate. Generally speaking, things MADE SENSE throughout the show, and when they didn't that added so much to the stakes and was made a plot point (midnight entity, the beast etc.), but now we have no reason to care because it seems like the writers creative team kinda stopped caring themselves, it feels like they're not really TRYING to make compelling mysteries because "oh well it doesn't have to make sense, you clearly just don't like fun"

[@sacrificiallamb4568]

There was only four writers this series. 2 working together on Rogue, Steven Moffat did Boom and RTD2 wrote the entire rest of the series.

[@ThetaWhovian12]

I think including fantastical elements is probably the biggest concern at the moment. Doctor Who is remembered as a SCI-FI show after all by many. The fantasy aspect isn't even done well either - basically it's just "Mysterious woman isn't actually mysterious because of fantastical fantasyness!"

[@Lucien0012]

You've just taken the words exactly right out of my mouth! I would, as I usually do, spend a lot of time writing up a massive paragraph about how I feel but you've said everything I could have possibly thought of. One thing I will add onto is the Doctor breaking the fourth wall. The Doctor doing this always has some rational explanation. For the Twelfth Doctor, he often breaks the fourth wall by using the audience as his own mind. In Heaven Sent, the entire episode, more or less, is based around the Doctor talking to himself and imagining an audience with him as he explains what's going on or speaks aloud his theories. We are his mind. He's not talking to the fourth wall like in Series 14, where it's done to deliberately communicate with people watching as though they are part of the show itself, or asking the audience questions ("Never seen a TARDIS before?"). It's completely ridiculous and removes all logic from the show. Series 14's fourth wall breaks treat it exactly as that, the characters going out of their Universe to speak directly or even engage in conversation with people at home watching on TV. Whereas, before in Who, it's used as a plot device. Where we are used as the Doctor's own mind. In Series 1, 'The Parting of the Ways', both Jack and the Doctor break the fourth wall. But it isn't treated as such. Instead, the camera is acting as a literal camera. Both Jack and the Doctor are having a conversation through a screen, in which we act as that screen. So it makes sense. It's logical. It sticks within its own Universe and doesn't try to create attention to the fourth wall break. The only thing I can think of which is a questionable fourth wall break is the beginning of The Shakespeare Code. The Carrionite speaks into the camera and shouts its intentions. Though, since Carrionites use a form of science (which we would perceive, as Humans, to be witchcraft), you could argue the Carrionite in question was simply speaking to its own people, which we later learn are trapped. But that's more headcanon.

[@thejither]

All of this, plus: Series 14 goes out of its way to signal that these are actual fourth wall breaks, whereas every single previous episode has made sure to _somehow_ motivate the (relatively) rare breaks. The 12th Doctor, like you say, by having established that "we are his mind" (beautifully put, by the way) - and by generally staging it "outside the narrative itself" (like the Beethoven's Fifth monologue). The Carrionite can easily be explained away, like you do - same goes for all of Tom Baker's fourth wall breaks. As for the "Feast of Steven" Christmas greeting, I feel like that one is constantly misconstrued by some fans: Lots of BBC shows in the 60's had the cast greet the audience at Christmas. And that's exactly what that one is: a _cast member_ - William Hartnell - greeting the audience at the end of the episode. Not the Doctor. He even changes his tone considerably from the line spoken before it, the audio indicates that the rest of the cast are celebrating in the background as themselves, etc. Contrary to this, even without looking at e.g. Mrs Flood, the _Doctor's_ fourth wall breaking is something completely different in series 14. Saying something like (paraphrased) "I thought the music was non-diegetic" is a whole other level of artifice awareness. And _winking_ at the camera is very different from talking towards it - it's a much more deliberate and explicit fourth wall break. Why? Because, unlike e.g. Tom Baker talking to himself, there's absolutely no way to motivate a wink as something done "to yourself" - and the wink is framed (the camera positioned) in a way that makes it clear he cannot possibly be winking to anyone else - unless, I guess, he's winking to some random person who suddenly appeared lying on their back on the roof next to him? Oh wait, I guess that a random person isn't completely out of the question - it would definitely follow the general theme of RTD2 of random things happening for no particular reason. 😂

[@Lucien0012]

@@thejither You've explained it perfectly! I wish more people would understand that about William Hartnell's fourth wall breaking. Unfortunately, Whovians are very stubborn and won't look at facts or logical assumptions as to avoid accepting when something is different to what they want it to be or like. The same goes for the 13th's Doctor's clothes weirdly changing as she regenerates into 14 (David Tennant). People always go back to the original regeneration where the clothes do, in fact, change from Hartnell to Troughton. The biggest issue with this is, this was a last minute decision. Hartnell was suffering badly with his health and The BBC were in dying need of a solution to keep the show running (hence regeneration being a thing in the first place). This was at a time when she show was quite literally just getting started, with the lore barely even established. It was a one-time thing that happened at the very creation of the show itself. After that first regeneration, it was dropped and the clothes stayed the same thereon. It wasn't even suggested for it to be an official/real thing, and it never was again until Russell decided to come back (and what's worse is how there's no in-Universal explanation for the change in clothes). Russell simply didn't want David in "women's clothing." So there's such a huge difference between now and back when regeneration barely had its own two legs to stand on, and everyone didn't know how it was going to actually plan out. Absolutely agree. This version of fourth wall breaking is deliberate. It's intentional. It's done on purpose for the sake of grabbing an audience reaction. I mean, having a character speak directly into the camera and communicate with the audience by asking questions is a pathetically Disney thing to do, which is genuinely painful for me to even sit through and watch. If it was done in a logical way, with it not bringing attention to itself or purposefully trying to make clear that the characters themselves can quite literally speak through a television screen (because the Doctor somehow knows he's "in a TV show"), it wouldn't be as bad. The Doctor "knowing he's in a TV show" completely ruins all stakes and destroys any weight to the show. As, from this point onwards, it doesn't matter what happens... since it's just a show, and the Doctor knows this. Making him do anything without applying logic to it. It's honestly such a kick in the stomach for fans that have watched all their life or at least since the revival. I find it ironic how people say "we watch Doctor Who for escapism" but then defend Russell for when he writes in political points and rewrites the structure of the show so that it becomes just that... a show. Full of poorly written and planned out characters, characters that know they're in a TV show (for some strange reason) and changing the genre so much the show is hardly SCI-FI now and is just full of fantastical and outrageous, unexplainable things that no longer need explaining "because of salt." Changing the entire tone of the show just for the sake of adhering to a new audience, mainly for America. Even thinking about it baffles me.

[@Toadyzoe]

Deeply appreciate the Mickey bin lid clip on the word "stretch"

[@zurgtheemperor975]

I have also had issues with Dr Who going into fantasy, because there haven't been rules established as to how the universe is supposed to work with fantasy elements. Wizards vs Aliens was a fantasy series and that had rules as to how magic worked in that show.

[@sacrificiallamb4568]

EXACTLY. Although RTD1 did specifically say then that the reason he included that was because "the kids love it. They get really into it."

[@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim]

It's not even good Fantasy either.

[@The-Busy-Beeeee]

@@sacrificiallamb4568even the show hasn’t been for kids for a LONG time

[@sacrificiallamb4568]

@@The-Busy-Beeeee I was talking about the magic rules in Wizards vs Aliens and why he included them in that show.

[@The-Busy-Beeeee]

@sacrificiallamb4568 and I was talking about how doctor who really hasn't been for like little ish kids for awhile sorry if my wording was confusing

[@j.r.cehonski2326]

Totally agree this season has been so frustrating- I miss the era of threads being woven throughout the season to pay off by the end. And I don’t even mean the moffat era mysteries. They teased bad wolf and torchwood throughout seasons 1 and 2 but it didn’t get in the way of the stories, it was just fun Easter eggs we got to realize by the end. I was waiting for the finale to bring the 73 yards mystery in to it, but instead we get 1 offhand comment… and then there’s Rubys mother, that reveal felt like a big middle finger to the audience, because waving away the hooded cloak and the pointing at the doctor, and the snow was done so badly.

[@dawnbun]

Random few small things I would've liked 1. The Goblins should've been explicitly mentioned as being one of the Toy Maker's legions 2. They should've explained the Music Number 3. 73 Yards needs a much better ending to explain itself 4. The callback to 73 Yards in Empire of Death should've been more tied to 73 Yards instead of showing something that never happened

[@dawnbun]

Oh, and the Ruby's mother being completely unimportant was a bad idea We've already plots like that don't really work lol Star Wars kinda showed us that That was kinda dumb without some other reason for it not working

[@fastertrackcreative]

@@dawnbun Russel's like "lol you thought Ruby and her mother was actually something unique? Just because it was heavily hinted at throughout? Nah, it means nothing. But _this_ other mystery will totally get you talking and totally won't be another cop out."

[@dawnbun]

@@fastertrackcreative that's what I mean If you don't pay off a mystery good then people won't trust you to pay off the other ones good I promise that sentence is sentencing I just woke up lol and I'm waiting for my boss to unlock the door to the place I work at so I'm scrolling through my YT replies lol

[@Notallowed101]

I can explain the singing and dancing: homosexuality and Disney in our world. If they don't provide the explanation it's up to the fans: It's literally the Glee-ification of Doctor Who. The Doctors new Boyfriend is Glee actor and they met in a Bridgeton rip-off. Feels like RTD's been watching too much tv and drinking too much wine.

[@dawnbun]

@@Notallowed101 Disney I maybe agree with Homosexuality you can stfu Homosexuality has been in Doctor Who since Capaldi Also I love that you completely missed the obvious queues in my PFP that imply my 🏳️‍🌈-ness Great stuff.

[@newman476]

My favorite example of how the fantasy elements should be handled is in Image of the Fendahl. The Fourth Doctor provides three different but plausible explanations for how the more cosmic and supernatural events of the story took place, including the suggestion that it may have been on giant coincidence. The audience is free to pick which explanation makes the most sense, but there are still explanations.

[@LexiTheLeo]

I super agree with this. I feel the show has become too ungrounded. A show like this is always going to be ungrounded to a degree, as we are literally travelling time and space and that’s why we need more logical, earthy and grounded aspects to bring a balance. I felt Series 1-4 (russel T Davies first run) he nailed this so well. But the later shows lacked this. The only way i can explain it; I remember JKRowling in an interview speaking about the third Harry Potter movie, the producer wanted to have the students create an orchestra with different instruments to play infront of the school but wanted the lens to zoom in on a trumpet and there would be mini Hogwarts students inside the instruments. She said she found out it pointless as Harry Potter was already a magical movie and why did we need to add more. She was right. These types of movies / tv shows appeal to us because we can see ourselves in them to some degree. When you start letting go of the “human-ness” and replace it with more woo woo it can just become a little silly and sometimes sloppy as we can use the mystical side to create a conclusion instead of humans working together to figure it out. You stop seeing yourself within it. I also felt there was less of a focus this series on character development and too much reliance on the gadgets. You had Martha travel the world to take the master down, rose absorb the heart of the time vortex and us her mind to find a way to do that, yet we see Ruby put some gadget into “fight mode” or whatever it was called and all of a sudden all is well. There was no character development or any real stakes because it became too ungrounded. The only time i think this did work to a degree was with 73 yards. That’s just my opinion though and some people like a more ungrounded approach, i was just definetly disappointed as i was excited for RT to come back :(

[@mayotango1317]

I think you need to watch the RTD 1 again. Feel more a soap opera that a sci-fi show.

[@LexiTheLeo]

@@mayotango1317lol i rewatch a lot, im watching “the long game” with Eccleston as i type. each to their own, but i preferred the RTD 1st run :)

[@mayotango1317]

@@LexiTheLeo What is the diference? At least now RTD know that the Doctor is a alien.

[@FTZPLTC]

You can get away with a bit of hand-waving here and there, but the story as a whole does have to *feel* like it makes sense - otherwise people will quickly cease to feel invested. It's frustrating because suspension of disbelief has never been easier for Doctor Who thanks to the increased budget and effects that Old Who would've loved... but that's all going to be squandered if the writers feel justified in telling us that they're not really going to bother constructing stories in ways that feel satisfying or engaging. That's the big problem for me, and it's not just down to the fantasy/magic aspect. It's that they don't seem to know how to handle their audience anymore. Space Babies fails to create real tension because we're all pretty sure the show isn't going to kill off dozens of infants; Ruby was killed and revived in, what, 2/3 of the episodes?, and Empire of Death, while fine, starts with a massacre so absurd that we *know* it's not going to be permanent the second it happens. They spent the season telling us that death wasn't something we'd really have to deal with. We don't care, because we were taught not to care. I think this is really important with fourth-wall break stuff too. If you're going to wink to the audience and remind them that they're watching a TV show, you have to keep up the bargain. Part of why I think Dot & Bubble was so successful - because it didn't try to convince us that the Doctor or the Companion or the whole of time and space were going to die forever. The stakes *felt* so much higher in that episode than in Empire of Death, imo.

[@9124Nove]

I love the idea of ghosts actually being ghosts or vampires actually being vampires. The problem with this season was that this idea was poorily executed. Interesting concept, but it felt like RTD dropped the ball with going all out with it.

[@amaryllis0]

I don't know. "The explanation is aliens" gets lame, sure, and it actually being a ghost or what have you seems like it would be great on its own, but the scifi grounding kind of serves as a promise that the show has a coherent logic, and not any arbitrary thing may happen.

[@lorlok623]

​@@amaryllis0 most super natural horror movies still follow its basic inner logic and rules, even the classics. Even fantasy movies don't treat magic as a get-out-of-jail-free card

[@VelociraptorsOfSkyrim]

​@amaryllis0 The problem is that well written Fantasy needs to make sense within itself. A good fantasy setting can explain the rules to you after the fact and it still make sense.

[@Darkstar-qb3dh]

Yes doctor who needs to make sense saying it doesn’t is a massive cop out

[@fastertrackcreative]

It's like the ever-irritating "it's just a TV show" response which is essentially saying don't give a toss about it properly.

[@asciiguy1]

I mean it was fairly mediocre when it came to making sense, and even more so in more recent seasons. But I had given it a pass to some extent for the occasional dramatic speeches and scenes of frenzy. That only goes so far.

[@davidagnew6191]

It is not just a cop out, it is insulting to the audience. RTD is paid to entertain us; stories that don't make sense are not just not entertaining, they are annoying.

[@MortexBerri]

We still miss nathan gibson 😔

[@patient24602]

This is truly a tragedy

[@theboxedcat_]

o7

[@CashelOConnolly]

Who is/was Nathan Gibson

[@voloso]

@@CashelOConnollyhe was an azbantium level patron for a long time alongside faolancortez

[@CashelOConnolly]

@@voloso oh yes‼️ I forgot. Thank you ✌🏻🔷

[@linksbro1]

It used to feel like a special occurrence in the show when something was so mysterious that even The Doctor can't explain things and the audience never learns the truth. Things like the Midnight Entity, the existence of a monster in Listen, and what 456 was from Torchwood Children of Earth. The Doctor is a know-it-all who has traveled the universe more than any other being and loves others knowing that, so when he draws a blank, when he encounters an unknown, he's out of his depth and in even more danger than usual, but now that they're not explaining anything, it doesn't even really feel like The Doctor anymore.

[@seven7264]

Honestly I haven’t been this disappointed in Doctor Who since Series 11. 8 episodes doesn’t help the significant lack of character development. Ruby feels like the exact same person from Church, and Ncuti’s Doctor, while gloriously fun and bombastic, feels more hollow (crying at anything and everything doesn’t help). As someone that preferred Moffat’s era over RTD1, I want the Grand Moff back.

[@danielheaps6791]

One of my biggest gripes with who I've had is the almost lack of canon which has only gotten worse. Is the doctor a time lord? The timeless child? Half human? Even his age gets inconsistent sometimes. Clara being there the whole time etc etc, it just keeps getting harder to justify or explain or follow in any meaningful way. Nothing matters.

[@ilo2224]

I can’t wait until the next show runner reverts back to hard sci-fi and time travel, paradoxes, etc (as long as the show isn’t cancelled)

[@mayotango1317]

Moffat did that and everybody hate him.

[@tzarg]

@@mayotango1317 everyone is a bit a a stretch, I think.

[@zarrg5611]

​@@mayotango1317Moffat actually wanted to make the show more like a fairy tale, so he had a similar goal to RTD. While I see alot of flaws in his era through the lens of what this video explores he was massively more successful in properly achieving that goal.

[@mayotango1317]

@@zarrg5611 Like the Fourth Doctor's Gothic era.

[@davidagnew6191]

@@ilo2224 Yes. It would be even better if they made the Doctor asexual again and ditched the wokery.

[@DyrianLightbringer]

A little beside the point, but "73 Yards" is not a good episode. The events of the episode literally undo themselves by the end, so the entire episode never actually happened. The same can be said of "Turn Left," except that "Turn Left" also included relevant moments to the plot of the entire series. The cameos of Rose were finally explained. "Turn Left" also showed us more of the characters of the Nobles, and Donna had to actually make a conscious choice to undo the episode and put the universe right in the end, and she did so by sacrificing herself. Compare that to "73 Yards" which gives no explanation for the mysterious stalker, Ruby doesn't have to do anything to undo the episode, we get no lasting effects of the episode, nothing important actually happens. It's an episode you don't even have to watch.

[@Tulf42]

"Never. Ever. TELL ME THE RULES!" - The Eleventh Doctor, The Time of the Doctor This is the quote I think of that writers would use as their "It doesn't have to make sense" card.

[@bobhale7302]

This is a good analysis and the only thing I disagree with is that for me the sudden shift into fantasy HAS ruined the show. I don't agree with any of the critics who criticise it for the choice of Doctor or his characterisation or the idea that it is agenda driven now but the simple fact is that the stories just don't make sense. They don't stand up to a moment's rational thought. In essence there are two huge problems, The first is that while not everything has to be explained or make sense, we now have a show where NOTHING is explained to make sense. The second is that RTD doesn't understand fantasy well enough to write it. Well written fantasy still needs to make sense. Magic has to have rules that it obeys just as much as science. Those rules can be fairly arbitrary but they have to be there or you are just using "magic" as a kind of "get out of jail free" card to let you write anything at all and then when someone points out that it came out of nowhere, shrug your shoulders and say "It doen't have to make sense."

[@deadman746]

"It hasn't earned that" summarizes pretty much of the problems with RTD2.

[@darudesandstrom1067]

Good video, you was able to articulate some of the thoughts in my head about some of the story aspects. Also refreshing to see level headed criticism and discussion, it’s hard to critique this show with other fans as you are just told to “stop watching” or “it’s always been like this”, with the latter just being so disingenuously false. I prefer it when this fandom isn’t an echo chamber and we can sift the good from the bad.

[@spencerraney4979]

I think this has less to do with fantasy, and more to do with a general lack of closure. We saw frequently in the last era of the show, where The Doctor finds out she’s the Timeless Child and then breaks out of the mental cell she’s in by going “well, it doesn’t matter ‘cause I’m still The Doctor”, and then later gets the ability to learn all of her previously hidden secrets and see all her erased memories, only for her (acting as a mouthpiece for Chibnall and his writing) to go “nahh, save it for later”. Even the whole Thasmin thing, which (please don’t attack me for this), I didn’t really feel had actually been set up or had real basis in the events of Series 11 or 12 (basically being thrown in because Chibnall heard about and said “sure, why not”), should have had a real conclusion and mention in the Power Of The Doctor, rather than one conversion in the previous episode about it not being tenable. And now, Russell is introducing ideas that are fundamentally changing the nature of the show, and are bringing up questions about who the characters are, and where these plot lines are going, and he’s just going “Ah well, who cares, because it really doesn’t matter”. It does matter, staking everything on particular plot and failing to deliver on it in way that pays it off (like the whole thing with Ruby and her mom ultimately not being special) is just bad writing.

[@spencerraney4979]

Moffatt might have cheated or sidestepped the issues of the Doctor’s death, or the identity of the hybrid, but he still provided the arcs with conclusion that did make sense and work within the narrative. The whole Sutekh thing (and honestly when he was announcing himself I thought it going to be Fenric, which frankly would have been a better and more fitting idea), doesn’t work if Ruby’s mom is just a normal human and Ruby is normal human too (who somehow summoned snow).

[@markpostgate2551]

The shark jumping moment for Doctor Who on fantasy was really Silver Nemesis when Lady Peinforte time travelled by magic. "Magic, Leela? Magic?"; "I know, there is no such thing as magic"; "Exactly, nothing is inexplicable to the rational mind; merely unexplained" - that Robots of Death prologue scene really sets out what the stall should be, because the subsequent explanation of the TARDIS being dimensionally transcendental is so mad it might as well be magic! That is Doctor Who's position- you can definitely have magic as long as it is explained as a form of science that is impenetrably beyond our ken... which is actually how believers in magic often are these days, if you listen to their stoned ramblings they will be using garbled versions of quantum theory, entanglement, chaos theory and "energy" and "vibrations" to rationalise their earnestly believed escapist fantasies about being sorcerors. But Lady Peinforte just casting a magic spell was just silly, unless Fenric did it. That was the season 26 retcon excuse for Ace's absurd season 24 backstory of the time storm created with a chemsitry set so I guess it could feasibly explain Lady Peinforte's time travel spell too, but that for me was the first betrayl of the franchise's core principle - there is no magic but very advanced weird science looks a helluvalot like magic.

[@curtiseaston1711]

Fenric did it, he explains that near the end of curse of fenric

[@markpostgate2551]

@@curtiseaston1711 But Peinforte expected the magic to work, so was she a Fenric worshipper?

[@TranscendentLion]

@@markpostgate2551 I think she is mentioned as one of the Wolves, but it is very easy to miss.

[@wesleyrumbelow5251]

bro got a new camera and thought we wouldn’t notice

[@CashelOConnolly]

I think it’s a new wide angled lens

[@tzarg]

yeah it did look a bit different

[@Hessy-ob5ws]

I largely agree with all you say. I wondered if it was just me not liking the show anymore - so l went back and rewatched some older "New Who" episodes (since it's almost 20 years old now l prefer to call it 21st Century Who). What struck me was the dialogue and characterisation was seriously lacking compared to just a few years ago - indeed character building, nuanced emotions, any genuine gravitas - just feels like it's mostly disappeared in this most recent iteration. It's not just silly - and yes, Doctor Who has always had silly, eccentric elements - it just feels juvenile, in the worst sense of the word (the writer - and possibly the cast? - are enjoying themselves far more than much of the audience and liberties are being taken with what often passes for a plot; this is the very definition of self-indulgent, exclusionary writing). The quality of the scripts just shows such a massive downturn - when you don't need to explain anything and worse, you include fake explanations and then tell the audience it's their own fault for believing them, it starts to feel a bit unpleasant; the audience are being "played" for want of a better word. There feels like there was more genuine character building, intrigue and real plot in the single episode "Midnight" than in the entirety of the past season. The expression "money for old rope" comes to mind - it is incredibly lazy writing and very bad writing. If the writer (for effectively it is almost solely down to one individual) cannot be bothered to write competent or even vaguely coherent scripts than l am afraid l can no longer be bothered to watch.

[@JCHanratty]

Spot on. It is astonishingly and embarrassingly bad TV now and simply too painful to watch. The only slim hope - and it is a very slim one - this show now has is a complete clear-out of all the ossified people who have been involved in it since 2005 - RTD, Moffat, Chibnall, Gardner, Collinson, Tennant, Gatwa, Gibson, all of them - and entirely new creative blood in the production, writing and acting departments somewhere along the line. Their load was well and truly shot long ago and they all need to pack their bags and sling their hooks. Imagine Lambert, Hussein and Newman calling the shots in 1982. Ridiculous.

[@caacrinolass3501]

Both good fantasy and good sci fi have worldbuilding at their heart. There are patterns, rules that are comprehensible and the story makes sense within that framework. Not science of course necessarily, but internal logic at least. Doctor Who doesn't exactly need to do that assuming its treated in a more anthology fashion, but that doesn't work with the season structure where things build to a finale. Even without that, unexplained or handwaved stuff is rarely a good idea, it just limits the effects to single dud episodes rather than burying everything around them.

[@HappyLarry.]

I think the best comparison I can make to Doctor Who, is Sherlock and House. Doctor Who, conceptually, is a version of Sherlock Holmes. He's a brilliant man who leads along his companion into a new and dangerous life where he works to help them understand the world around him, always seemingly having the answers needed on the tip of his tongue. House and Sherlock both know this, and use that framework to create an interesting character. We accept that they're so intelligent, despite how unbelievable it is, because we WANT to believe it. That's the same with Doctor Who. If you just showed "The End of Time" to someone who knew nothing about Doctor Who, they'd think it's stupid. But the audience, through the season, has accepted the idea of The Doctor as a character, and chooses to believe the unbelievable. The new RTD era (and even going to Chibnall's """work""") don't create a world you want to believe in. There's nothing to grab you, nothing to hold onto, and so you just sit there and watch this man pull every answer out of his arse and just roll your eyes.

[@TranscendentLion]

I watched 'The Daemons' recently, and of course it's a story that deals with the conflict between science and magic, so seems oddly relevant at the moment. While the Doctor is, of course, sceptical of magic, the story treats it with some respect, arguing that it is sufficiently advanced technology. There is a scene where the Doctor wards off a gargoyle by using iron, and when challenged on his scepticism, responds with 'I don't believe in magic, but he did'. The point is that there are rules to the magic, (largely to do with an individual's belief), and even if not every phenomenon is explained, we can know that there is an explanation somewhere (in the case of 'The Daemons', it is that black magic and summoning rituals are all remnants of ancient alien technology). It doesn't have to make sense, but it probably should.

[@chrise7359]

The duplicate TARDIS and memory TARDIS are the most ludicrous examples. The complexity of time travel makes it relatively exclusive. Now a magic hammer and mental willpower does it all. Appalling.

[@mathieuleader8601]

With watching S1 I thought the big twist was that the Doctor from the toymaker special onwards was trapped within the Land of Fiction hence more of the fantasy feel to this series maybe this will be case but I doubt it very much.

[@asciiguy1]

The best outcome for the fantasy turn would be using it to retroactively explain some fantastical being (eg, maybe Mrs Flood turns out to be "The Storymaker" or something like that) changing the Doctor's timeline to be the timeless child, and the Doctor undoing it, reverting back to the "normal" timeline.

[@aquestdaqui]

This season seems to be made by JJ Abrahams and his mystery boxes that lead to nowhere

[@Telekinslesis]

Any good fantasy has internal consistency and doesn't break its own rules. If the world doesn't have to make sense then every problem can be fixed with a deus ex machina. The perfect example of this is when 15 takes ruby back to 2024 in the devil's cord. They cant just go back to the present because time has been rewritten. That gives every episode in the past stakes because if they mess up then the future is ruined. The frustrating thing is that there is a perfect explanation that has gone unused: flux. The universe has been so damaged by it even the rules of reality have been broken. It both is a nice nod to long time fans and a perfectly reasonable explanation. But they still need to explain what can happen and what can not happen. How do the gods work? How can you defeat them? Etc The toy maker is a great example. I the Hartnell story he can control anything within a game but he never cheats and if you win he is defeated.

[@mayotango1317]

The universe was half destroyed by entropy in Logopolis, and later by the Time War.

[@JCHanratty]

I salute you for putting the energy and effort into articulating at some length, and with analytical precision, something that I'd say much more simply, because I no longer have the patience with the show or the man in charge. And that something, quite simply, is this - RTD has now become a relentlessly and shockingly bad writer. As others have already noted, he doesn't understand how fantasy works as a genre and has, rather conveniently, taken it as licence to pump out any old drivel, deflecting all objections or criticism with a dismissive hand wave and the lame, brainless excuse of 'it's fantasy, it doesn't have to make sense'. You describe RTD as chaotic and bombastic. To which I'd add that he's pompous, massively condescending, egomaniacal and deeply deluded, as a result, I guess, of having been insulated for too long in a hermetically sealed media environment, getting high on his own farts as those around him jostle to brown-nose him so hard they're in danger of popping out of his nostrils. In such an environment, he has clearly forgotten everything he ever knew about good dramatic writing. Or, worse, he thinks that he is now too big for the rigours of good writing to anchor him. And so, like the balloon full of hot air that he's become, he now permanently inhabits a low-oxygen altitude that's adversely affected several varieties of critical brain function. I always used to feel equivocal about RTD's writing, long before Doctor Who, going all the way back to Queer as Folk. Watching his work, there was always that nervous feeling that he could blow it any minute. And he has done so, at reliably regular intervals, throughout his career. But I no longer feel equivocal about him. I actively loathe him now. He has become totally unbearable to listen to in interviews. Just as Doctor Who has, for me, become completely unwatchable. Sadly.

[@EddJones25]

Pretty much what I've been thinking for a while :) any decent episode shouldn't need an extended Twitter post to explain it afterwards

[@jvblhc]

If I want fantasy, I have all 8 Harry Potter movies. In Doctor Who, I want Sci-Fi.

[@adamdean5261]

But if you organise by actor u have Harry Potter and the goblet of fire next to David tenant's run and house of dragon next to Matt Smith ... and yes I am just trolling you please don't stick a wand up my nose lol

[@Comicbroe405]

"Science fantasy" is a better description imo.

[@Reginald425]

If I want sci-fi, I’ll watch star wars

[@TubeOPaste]

@@Reginald425 Star Wars is as fantastical as Lord of the Rings, imho

[@Talenel]

​@@Reginald425Star Wars has never been sci-fi. I'd hesitate to even really call it sci-fantasy. It's just space fantasy. Jedi are just space wizards with laser swords powered by magic crystals. The one time Star Wars tried to lean closer to sci-fi or sci-fantasy, the entire fandom through a fit about it.

[@greenhowie]

A proper reboot with an "out" explaining the audience and fantasy plotholes as Entity creations might be the best option... But I'd love for a talented writer to take responsibility and somehow tie everything back into sci-fi. It would be a lot of hard work though - the longer this farce continues, the more daunting the task. I WANT to still love Doctor Who. But this season clearly wasn't made for me. It was made for people who watch all the top picks on BBC iPlayer.

[@carsforever4002]

I personally do not like the fantasy approach, we’ve already had Moffat did so much fantasy with “Amy the girl who waited” and “Clara the impossible girl” already but season 1 just had too much fantasy which was used as an easy excuse for why ‘things happen’. I prefer the simple but effective classic monster of the week, alien invasion stories and exploring the universe and new planets/species but this season the aliens are pushed to the back with the bogeyman, slugs and Sutekh literally just standing there and doing nothing. I think we need a better balance if they want to add the supernatural, the same way there’s a balance between past, present and future story episodes.

[@rinse-esnir4010]

Fantasy and the supernatural have always been part of Dr Who. I don't see why all of the sudden, this is a problem.

[@carsforever4002]

@@rinse-esnir4010 Because it wasn’t used well in the Moffat era and wasn’t used well in the latest season either. The Sarah Jane Adventures actually used it perfectly with Gorgons, Zodiacs and in the Curse of Clyde Langer etc alongside adding the sci-fi explanations to them.

[@mayotango1317]

​@@carsforever4002Sorry but the Moffat era feel more classic Who that the Buffy RTD era.

[@carsforever4002]

@@mayotango1317 SJA feels more like classic who than both RTD/Moffat imo lol But Moffat to me is the era that feels the most disconnected from the show than any other era. I think the returning companions, characters and monsters on RTD/Chibnall helped keep the shows identity whereas Moffats felt like Sherlock with aliens

[@mayotango1317]

@@carsforever4002 The Moffat era had Silurians, Ice Warriors, Zygons, Kate Stewart from Downtime, the Eye of Harmony, real Cybermen and Cybermatts, Mondas, Blinovitch Limitation Effect, The Doctor went back to being a cosmic hobo after being a depressing teenage boy pining for a spoiled blonde teenage girl like Rose. When RTD brought in the Daleks and Cybermen he reimagined them, and his campy gay Master is unrecognizable. I can't imagine Sara Jane falling in love with the Fourth Doctor either. The original Sherlock in space.

[@longtoney]

harbo!!!! i liked this video before watching it as i knew you would say what ive been thinking since watching series 14! i truly think that if they had just explained a few of the more fantasy based things as being aliens/alien technology i would have felt so much better about the episodes - it would establish those things within the recognisable doctor who world of infinite planets with infinite alien species on them! just some simple acts of worldbuilding would be Much appreciated.

[@bradleyc543]

As who fans of course we don't want hard sci-fi, but the universe has to make sense and we have to know the rules. It just annoys me when major plot points just don't exist on any pre-established basis and just happen.... Also I kind of just don't enjoy the traditional fantasy genre, so that's put me off on a few.

[@TubeOPaste]

Great analysis as always! The goblin stuff in The Church on Ruby Road was especially unsettling as it clearly demanded an in-universe explanation that just never came. Earth doesn't have goblins, so *how* does it have goblins now? I won't say it ruined Christmas 2023, but it did feel kind of awkward to be watching this together with my family's fellow SF fans as it was clearly fantasy unhinged. The only potentially redeeming factor in Fantasygate is this quote by Kate L-S in 73Y, where she says that UNIT have now been better prepared for the supernatural stuff. This would suggest some alternate timeline, which maybe will be closed or fixed at some point. But the inconsistencies do infringe upon the suspension of disbelief - which is completely unnecessary as you demonstrated. What's the antidote to a line of salt? 🤔

[@rainlesse]

Honestly I really do love the fantastical and in-explainable episodes that go into psychological issues in doctor who like, midnight and satan's pit but having these type of episodes with lack of explanations back to back in the new series is just too much for me man T.T like for me personally, Boom and 73 yards was a little tiring to sit through, like it pulls you in and makes you super interested but then in 73 yards... there's no explanation for the fairy circle like why its there, what alien species came to earth long ago and planted it or smth etc etc. I really liked how dot and bubble felt like a classic everyday doctor who episode with just a hint of plot twists here and there - really enjoyed that - and I feel the new series just needs more of that. But at the same time it might be that I just love the classic episodes in doctor who more haha

[@OtterSpaceLemon]

I really liked the new series, but your right about the weird fantasy elements. I want some of these things to be explained! Hopefully, with the next season!

[@carsforever4002]

You said everything we're thinking! I think people should stop comparing 73 Yards to Midnight and instead compare it to Turn Left, if the Time Beetle wasn't explained at the end by the Doctor it would have been annoying and made the episode feel pointless which is what happened sadly with 73 Yards.

[@retrogiftsuk4812]

Absolutely, though it's even worse than that, as in 73 Yards once the Prime Minister is scared off, nothing happens at all in the episode until Ruby dies of natural causes decades later, there is literally no plot for 20 minutes, you could cut out any or all scenes and it wouldn't affect anything. From the moment the PM runs off, the mysterious woman is shown to not be a threat and in fact can be used by Ruby so nothing matters. Then at the end it's left a mystery and one that didn't actually happen!?!

[@aeloswindrunner]

Is that "it just works" like it genuinely works, or is it "it just works" in the Bethesda sense? :p

[@JoshuaHyde-iu8ym]

Have you seen Babylon 5? After series 1 it usually tends to explain itself quite well in terms of stuff not making sense. (But you should still watch season 1.) I really suggest you take a look.

[@Comicbroe405]

I'm personally really intrigued by the foray into more fantasy cuz the show was never hard sci-fi anyway but I do think its a missed opportunity that RTD didn't build on it better.

[@naveenbhalla4557]

I always thought that Doctor Who relied on the Arthur C Clarke quote "all sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic!" This series has deviated from internal logic.... the problem is that the entire recent season seemed to be built around the idea Ruby had some kind supernatural element to herself. Because there wasn't, all these flaws - which wouldn't normally have bothered - have been brought to the surface by the finale!

[@Glacial7]

the new era of doctor who feels like russell read that one tweet by toby fox about the difference between stories and reality being that not everything will tie up in reality like it does in a story, and just ran with it to the point that there is no explanation for anything like for example the whole storyline with ruby's mom, it didnt explain a single thing about why she had all those fantastical properties surrounding her, and given the fact that there is a different companion for series 15 according to rumours, i doubt we'll actually get an explanation

[@ko379]

I agree in theory that it’s something the show is teetering on, though I think the actual example might be too harsh. In 73 yards, I did not understand that the woman WAS Ruby the whole time. Rather that she was being followed by some entity that manifested her greatest fears in a suspended timeline, and only became her at the end. I think for such a strong episode like that, it’s fair to be like “this is just a time/space/fear based being that we don’t understand”… as long as you don’t do it too often.

[@Redboots]

soft sci-fi like dr who can really utilise fantasy elements in a great way, like for example whilst it's not a story I particularly like, I know a lot of people enjoy the impossible planet and the satan pit and that has quite a fantastical premise. you've got literal satan there! it applies a varnish of sci-fi over the top in order to make it fit into the world it's in. and that's absolutely where s14 has fallen short. the fantasy direction is indeed being used as a crutch in order to avoid writing explanations, or to create a solid foundation for the story. like in some instances the lack of explanation is what makes it good, however others aren't... like space babies, where the explanation for the boogeyman doesn't stand up to interrogation, at least, imo it doesn't. it's clear that the episode was written around the want to have the boogeyman as a monster. this ties into my biggest criticism of s14, that it felt shallow, or like there was a fast-moving shallow current at the surface of the episode and everything below felt still, untouched, unexplored. all a plot, little to no b plot. there's no deeper exploration of these fantastical elements, no attempt to solidify them into the setting, things are just there. they didn't come from anywhere, they don't serve a role in the world, they've just appeared and will disappear at the end of the episode and won't have a lasting impact. I really agree that it's an excuse to not justify anything and to shut down criticism. as a writer myself I want my audience to care, and if I don't put the effort in to make the world engaging, which making things not matter or teasing twists that never come to fruition are the opposite of, my audience won't care! I also have to comment that the goblins made me incredibly uncomfortable because they were far too close to some antisemetic stereotypes. like. eating babies at christmas? yikes! if you're gonna look into superstition and folklore and fantasy maybe make sure you're not taking the bigoted elements of it.

[@Lowehart]

The goblins to be fair didn't feel too fantasy, to me. Just another example of some weird creature that exists that inspired our mythology, like the 'vampires', 'ghosts', and 'werewolves'. The rest... Mm, it is more fantasy.

[@ArwenArtanis]

Hit the nail on the head, brother

[@mareiramv]

I think RTD way of thinking is being encourage in Comic Cons and stuff like that, so I hardly doubt he will stop with this nonsense. I remember that he said that 73 Yards actually has an incredibly obvious explanation and he just won't say what it is, like, give me a break, dude... I like the fantastical elements and I don't have a problem with all of this being created because of something as silly or simple as the sault in WBY, but this is making RTD writing incredibly lazy and he's thinking he's a genius.

[@Domihork]

The cut explanations are the most frustrating part of this, tbh. For example with 73 yards, my head-cannon is that it was the TARDIS's doing, trying to give Ruby memories of the Prime Minister to later use in the memoRDIS against Sutekh. But I doubt it was meant like this, that's giving RTD too much credit. Also giving RTD too much credit, I suspect he might be doing all of this (like Ruby's mother) to throw us off. Like, he knows that whatever they come up with as a plot line or a plot twist, we will theorize about it or it will leak. Look at bi-generation or Sutekh, people predicted this. So he's now maybe making us feel like nothing matters and then he might bring in the good plots. But this might be just a desperate wish. Reality might be more bleak - RTD simply lost his mind.

[@superkid801]

Excellent video! I do agree with you, it can go in that direction, but not too far. The writing can be a big factor, with the kind of story it is telling. Still good video and discussion on the fantasy.

[@joeswift403]

These all come across as first drafts, which needed refining and tightening up. To me it feels as though RTD has become complacent

[@GrdnLo]

Even RTD has kind of admitted fantasy is just an easy hand-wavy way for him to avoid writing any technobabble explanation (see his interview with the Moff in Unleashed)

[@yamivkd]

Such a great video. I kinda understood the musical number in The Devil's Chord as when the Maestro was defeated that all the worlds music came back at once and the big blowout like that was just the result of that. But true nothing like that was given in the episode itself.

[@joshryan155]

I don't mind DW exploring different genres in its stories, but my one concern with RTD wanting to go into a more fantasy direction is that I don't want DW to turn into a "Space Harry Potter type series" as I want it to ultimately remain a scifi series.

[@StephenTurnerVlogs]

I don't know why I'm still watching this show anymore. It's suffering from Disneyitis and it's going the same way as Marvel. 6000ft under. Too many shows and spin offs, no plot, and too little care.

[@carlosamorim1204]

This reminds me of Joe Quesada's (I think) 'its magic, we don't have to explain it' quote. And it's just lazy, pure and simple

[@isobarkley]

i do disagree with your take on 73 yards. i wish the doctor/the townspeople would have explained the damage that breaking the faerie circle can actually cause and paradoxical things. like maybe the doctor heard legends on galifrey that faeries are akin to weeping angels and feed on that unrealized time energy. but idk, i love that episode. side note- the significance of the woman being 73 yards away WAS later explained in empire of death or whatever the finale was, as you know. i think its fine to solve a mystery a few episodes later

[@sarahakin]

I don't even mind fairytale/dream logic. It's when there's no internal logic at all that it starts to feel a bit lazy and insulting. Esthetically, I much prefer horror to cutesy. I mean, cute is fine here and there, but that's never been a cornerstone of the show and those aren't the most beloved episodes. The Disney-fication of Who is sad to see.

[@babygiraffeman]

It's a tough line to go follow through right, to it's somehow aliens to you know what these things just exist now, plot mcguffin, waka waka!

[@alexpotts6520]

I wonder how much of the genre shift is down to Disney's influence?

[@Ricky_Evans1611]

RTD: Anything can happen 💁🏼‍♀️🪄 ✨ Christopher Eccleston: Umm, no...

[@anakarine5577]

Thank you! the beast was a great example! Honestly, i think we can cut it down to incredible lazy writing

[@mathieuleader8601]

for a sci-fi explaination for the goblins I would have made those goblins evolved versions of the Ptings from the Chibnall era.

[@TempoLOOKING]

Nah torchwood broke thst in S1 with the demon Abodoerion

[@freyaguppy]

You voiced all of my grievances with recent Doctor Who very eloquently. When nothing is explained or is even explainable, I just can’t get myself to care. I enjoyed most of the episodes in 15’s season, but the big bad just isn’t memorable at all because the threat never felt real because theres no logic to it. And the show is just okay with that. I’m not okay with that, I need some sci-fi in my sci-fi villain

[@lewiitoons4227]

In all fairness, in a later episode I don’t quite remember what one but it is stated that the tardis perception filter is 73 yards which leaves enough to me at least to assume it was some wibbly wobbily timey wimey shit tho admittedly a reach

[@PeterCamberwick]

Yeah, but it still explains nothing. Not least that the whole perception filter bit is bollox, as people see the tardis all the god damn time. There's even been episodes where people have picked it up, stuck it on a lorry and stolen it. LOL. And of course, when they did that, they failed to notice a great big gross dog god clinging on to the outside of it.

[@darren.mcauliffe]

and what was the snow?

[@TubeOPaste]

Goblin dandruff perhaps? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@mrdoctorgilmore]

For me I'm all in on Doctor Who going more fantastical, I just hope that it's treated as more of a plot point eventually, a logical being like the Doctor contending with the rules of fairy tales is a cool idea. I don't think it's as illogical as you say, Ruby Road has the Doctor rationalise how the Goblins primitive ship/ how they feed on coincidence from a scientific perspective, in Boom he uses himself to create a circuit board to send a sentient virus in the system and 73 Yards an easy interpretation of what happens is that Ruby is released by the woman/creature that forces her to live her greatest fear, only by accepting it is she freed. I can confidently say s1/14 is over-hated and much like Capaldi's run will have a reappraisal in a few years.

[@PeterCamberwick]

"an easy interpretation of what happens is that Ruby releases a creature". ...... Erm, ... but how, and what is it?

[@mrdoctorgilmore]

@@PeterCamberwick Forgive my dyslexia, it should make sense now.

[@KingsNJenssons]

My theory is suitech doing stuff with the tardis at the edge of the universe It's the reason for all the stuff happening and not the salt

[@MichaelJohnson-kq7qg]

Wild Blue Yonder wasn't the start of this arc. "Turn Left" was.

[@mcdakka7223]

As Tod Howard once said: it just works

[@Stuffpuff-yu1gq]

Is it just me or the villain known as The Wire would make an absolutely perfect return?

[@kyledawson871]

I don't mind Doctor Who going in a more supernatural direction. I actually encourage it because I hate it when Doctor Who and other shows use a lot fantasy elements and then say it was just aliens and science the whole time. However if they are going down this path it should be treated as a more horrific thing for the Doctor. For the most part the Doctor has only fought things he can explain as a scientist. He's always been able to use his intellect to make deductions. The idea of him encountering magic should be scary for him. Magic doesn't abide by the laws of science. It can't be analyzed from a purely logical standpoint. It defies his fundamental beliefs about reality. That should be a major weakness for the Doctor because it forces him to compromise his beliefs about the universe and puts him in situations where he isn't the smartest one in the room and probably shouldn't take charge. He shouldn't be able to quickly deduce how goblins work and learn the language of rope.

[@jaygent2836]

"chaotic and bombastic approach" - fair!

[@selatidos]

Russell t should listen to harbo

[@The_Nordic_Doctor]

imo, doctor who has fantastical elements, but is still always serious sci-fi underneath, every fantasy element/most have had the sci-fi explanations, oh well yea the vid explained the same thing, and yes the salt is the new sci-fi background

[@OtterSpaceLemon]

I wonder if the fantastical writing elements are due to Disney having some control over the property since this new series is all a part of Disney +

[@isobarkley]

the fourth wall breaks were my biggest complaint about the season. if it was only mrs flood, WOoo that'd be something else. mysterious, terrifying. but all other uses of it just make the show so... ha ha funny unserious drivel.

[@blindnerd4871]

Apart from "73 Yards", I really think season 14 wasn't as good as I was hoping. "Boom", on a first viewing was admittedly a good episode, but then it just doesn't work or have any rewatchability like so many other previous Doctor Who episodes. The reason why "73 Yards" works so well is that the story was purposefully made to make you think and interpret what the story was suppose to be. I like how it is ambiguous for the most part, and how the fear of the unknown was used with the woman. You don't need to explain everything, but you should have some form of explanation for certain things. Season 14 didn't entirely work for me as it wasn't as grounded as previous eras, it didn't give many explanations and used fantasy as a way to try and wave things off like it was nothing. There were some good ideas, but the execution was just not there.

[@gladiator652004]

Where did the salt cellar come from?

[@SageWon-1aussie]

Tom Baker's Doctor used to have everything in his pockets. They even had an "empty your pockets!" joke about it.

[@Notallowed101]

It's interesting that this all comes back to the Doctor throwing salt between two versions of the Doctor and Donna. Feels like RTD is separating himself from the old stories using literal SALT. RTD is throwing salt at us.

[@almighty7621]

Doctor Who is like infinity, even though it's endless, it turns out, it does have its limits

[@Red-vo3sk]

I don't really mind the fantasy elements, but it does seem a little bit fumbled. I would like it to make a bit more sense.

[@DsRelaxingSounds]

It's just not really the same show anymore it seems. I still watch it and mildly enjoy it, (episodes like '73 Yards' were entertaining as a standalone story) but I'm not invested like before and it doesn't really feel like the Doctor Who I knew and loved. I suppose it's natural for things to change with time, times change and I'm no longer the target audience - many of the people complaining now aren't either. So I'm letting it go, but it would be nice if they at least stayed true to the sci-fi genre and not turn it into some magic/Disney show. Like they could keep that the same at least, as it seems kind of a basic principle for the show.

[@TheNejD]

I feel like S14 feels like 'the fantasy seeason' but they dont even go fully in on it, like they want to be using the fantasy elements to build towards Sutekh but hes only mentioned in a 2 episodes and instead they put the mystery hook on reusing the same actress in the episodes but then that character ends up being completely unimportant to the overarching plot, she could of been replaced by literally anything such as a rubber duck.

[@Ryysight]

But DW did have a hard Sci-Fi era which I thought was incredible, Flux! I still regard it as the NuWho's best season, then literally a season later Mistro is pulling musical notes out of somebodys body like RTD has just lost the plot, literally

[@crowcoregames1785]

73 yards was fine until they said ruby is nromal in the final ep and now im like 73 yards dosent make any sense because how did ruby teleport as the old lady

[@mayotango1317]

In a fifth Doctor story happen the same with the Brigadier.