Doctor Who's Darkest Hour?

[@Jaeden_Phoenix]

If Craig and Sophie actually did show up with an Army of Chimpanzies, I would definitely give this episode a 10/10.

[@gabe5918]

“Ooh monkeys monkeys!”

[@doctorneotech7011]

And then Vincent Van Gogh starts throwing paintbrushes at the headless monks

[@bmvthemoviefanatic7282]

Right! Like the end of Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes 😆

[@carolinemcgovern4488]

I mean, that would have been James Corden's most badass role and I'd have been here for it.

[@drneotech7254]

@@carolinemcgovern4488 What if he was in the cindarella flash mob rat costume?

[@lucyanneholleranoc1828]

my issue with the amy and lost baby storyline is it doesn't give the grief and pain time to really set in and be felt. it's kinda implied she should be fine with it because of knowing river and growing up with melody, and brushes over how either way amy literally lost her baby

[@A1exBOfficial]

This 100%. I remember that at the time of first viewing, I was confused how it just seemed to end and wondered why River being their daughter somehow implied that everything was okay at that point in time. I have a baby and if she randomly came back from the future to now but her baby self disappeared, I would not be okay.

[@Spyciality]

To be fair it kind of did, later in the series Amy and Rory divorced because Rory wanted more kids to actually grow up with but Amy was still struggling with the “loss” of river and was terrified of her babies being taken again, and Amy isn’t the kind of person to really grief more to “bottle” her feelings

[@HT-lr1rs]

@@Spyciality I like this explanation, should have gone further but it is meant for kids and adults at the end of the day.

[@Spyciality]

@@HT-lr1rs true, I feel like people would be weirded out if there was a mini arc in Amy having somewhat ptsd of her daughter being taken infront her 3 times pretty much all of them being the doctors fault

[@Mew_Mokuba_Akari]

@@Spyciality Wasn't it also established that something happen during her kidnapping that she wasn't able to have more children. So even if she had managed to overcome her fear she couldn't have more kids anyway

[@GraceMellody]

As someone who spent years devastated after a miscarriage (which was called a “miracle” pregnancy due to my health issues) I haven’t been able to rewatch this episode as much as others. The parallels between the baby being a ganger and how loss feels in true life are insane, and Karen’s acting never fails to make me tear up.

[@alyssinclair8598]

Heartbreaking. Hope you're ok

[@samuelellis3019]

I'm sorry for your loss :(

[@ptolemeeselenion1542]

I'm sorry.

[@jimmy2k4o]

I’m So Sorry. I know am a man but I have a feeling that few other misfortunes pain you as much as that. In let’s kill Hitler when the doctor died and river asks if he’s worth it, and without knowing what river is gonna do, she says “yes” That always struck me as odd because I assumed Amy would care about river more than Doctor.

[@user-kr9cg5vc84]

Ya got a busted box. What’s the use of ya.

[@DJtheBlack-RibbonedRose]

I'll definitely say that AGMGTW has one of DW's most unsettling scenes...imagine you're a parent, holding your child in your arms, only for them to melt into a puddle on you without warning. Karen Gillan's horrified reaction when the almost Melody is revealed was heartbreaking. But on the bright side, we get Paternoster gang! (Vastra, Jenny, Strax). 😅 But yeah, as I've seen several other people mention, it *definitely* would've worked better as a two-parter.

[@C0DE_R3D]

That scene always made me cry when I was younger, it's such a horrifying concept even for DW!

[@NileSWPhotography]

She wasn’t even acting good. She called Rory in a loud voice n that was it

[@doctorneotech7011]

@@NileSWPhotography what was she gonna do “oh, fuck me baby is now goo?” A Scottish accent is very hard to get through in text.

[@NileSWPhotography]

@@doctorneotech7011 nope cry and grieve and scream. Don’t scream “roraaaayyyyyy”

[@Endarius_Termina]

@@NileSWPhotography Your telling me that if you just found out your kid was kidnapped your first reaction wouldn't be "Help Me!?" literally the only person who could help emotionally in that was RORY! like all the doctor did was essentially say "I'm so sorry" and leave as she is grieving and confused

[@julianjames278]

One criticism of Moffat I have is he made eleven so constantly overpowered, one step ahead of everyone and smug about it, that it actually felt strangely satisfying when he occasionally lost.

[@atharvadeshpande6907]

It's not a criticism if that was the intention. I think Moffat's arc for the 11th in series 6 was learning humility

[@bryananderson8241]

Julian James that's exactly how I felt about ten.

[@mayotango1317]

That is the Seventh Doctor arc also

[@julianjames278]

He doesn’t really learn humility though. He cheats death with the teselecta without having to make the decision to sacrifice himself.

[@Endarius_Termina]

@@julianjames278 I think its fair to say that Eleven was still recovering from the "Timelord Victorious" power-trip/Rant . . .

[@NileSWPhotography]

“Please, point a gun at me if it helps you relax! You’re only human :)”. GENIUS. I love that whole scene

[@emperorcubone]

Well I disagree on some of this; I don't the Doctor was going around to people saying "You owe me, pay up!" But more along the lines of "Remember when I helped you? Can you help me?" with the exception of Dorian I guess. But as far as Lorna she was a nice sweet girl that may have had limited screentime but her genuine nature made her endearing to those without frozen hearts. And the Doctor wasn't so egotistical he overlooked one of the little people and forgot her, it was pretty clear to me that he hadn't met her yet; he's a time traveler so he'll meet child her at some point past this on her timeline. He did it with River so I don't get why that never occurred to you instead of getting bent out of shape over it...

[@aDifferentJT]

Yeah, I always thought of it as the Doctor finally saying ‘I need help’ to the universe at large and all these people he’s helped before showing up to help.

[@matthewparker9276]

In addition to this, it's always felt like an escalation of stakes, while also escalating the protagonists power. This time the villains have finally done enough to make the doctor call in backup, but they should be very scared that he has gone this far.

[@mitchellhorton9382]

I don'nt think he even went with "remember when I helped you" I saw him going to people he trusted and saying "my friend is in trouble and I need your help" And they help him because the type of person the Doctor is friends with is the type of person who will help him rescue a baby

[@truehare]

And what's more, even if you choose to interpret this episode as the Doctor going out of character and starting to collect debts like a jerk, so to speak... He still suffered a MASSIVE defeat at the end as punishment. All his gathering of an army and strategizing was no match for the villains' simple ploy of using a fake baby... Not to mention, it wasn't even a new trick, he had fallen for the exact same one with the fake Amy, at least for a while. You could even go as far as interpreting River's "darkest hour" speech as referring to the humiliation he must have felt for falling for such an obvious trap, though I don't really believe that's what Moffat was going for.

[@fugoo8912]

This whole video was one long hot take 😂

[@bloodyneptune]

I never got the whole "theres no much lore stuff going on, that a new viewer would totally be lost" thing. Like, yeah, they should be, who expects to go into a show mid season and understand what's happening? That's like critizing a book for doing the same thing because what if a new reader picks it up and starts reading from page 186, they'll be lost!

[@Sanquinity]

Wait, people are actually saying that? As you said, that's like starting a book in the middle, and being upset you're lost on the story. I started watching Doctor Who in the new-who era. And if you just start there, with Eccleston and Rose, everything you'd need to know gets explained when needed. Sure there's probably a TON of old-who lore as well, but that didn't detract from the new-who experience imo.

[@kylenetherwood8734]

It used to be a big deal before iPlayer and stuff

[@Hathsh]

I think it’s meant as it would be confusing to viewers that only started watching at the start of this series not necessarily this episode

[@theguyyouhate]

@@Sanquinity hell you can start with the 11th and have most of the pieces the only major missing one being the first meeting with River. i know because much against my personal advice my friend started there and was never really lost on any lore.

[@alyssinclair8598]

Tv used to be watched differently. A lot of moffats episodes work better with streaming than randomly catching episodes

[@alicesophie123]

Not only are all the characters ones we’ve only just met, they way they’re set up convinced me we must have met them before and I had missed something important!

[@GraceMellody]

This. I remember every time I rewatched googling to see where I’m supposed to know Strax and the gang from!

[@altinaykor364]

lazy writing in Journey's End, we have characters we're grew to know and love and guess that they sure will do help the Doctor. In here, I don't care even for one of them and I have no idea why they even should care about the Doctor

[@LadyDoomsinger]

I think a key theme of this episode is how much the people of the universe *misunderstands* the Doctor - and perhaps how much he fails to realize how they see him. He is seen as a great warrior, a malevolent trickster, a vengeful god, even. This misunderstanding of his character is the whole core of the conflict in the first place; Amy is kidnapped and River turned into a killer *because* the bad guys are terrified of the Doctor. They think they *need* to defend themselves against the chaos he inflicts on the universe. And seeing this particular episode, you understand how that misunderstanding came to be: Someone he loved was in danger. So, he does what he always does, tries to save them. And he makes a big show of it. When Dorian says the Doctor is calling in old debts, I don't think that's how the Doctor himself sees it. He's just reaching out to people he knows might be able to help - not realizing that his request for aid could be misinterpreted as calling in a debt, or coercion even. The 11th Doctor has repeatedly proved to be oblivious to the nuances of social interaction - he fails to see how other people see him and how his actions and words might be misunderstood. Notice the shock on his face when he realizes that the bad guys think the word "Doctor" is synonymous with "Warrior", because of him. This episode, I think, was intended to delve deep into the 11th Doctor's most prominent character flaw: Hubris. It wasn't "Glorifying him" - it was showing how he glorified himself. The whole point of the episode is that *The Doctor is Wrong* - he sees himself as the Hero of the story, justified in his anger, and righteous in his retribution - failing to realize just how monstrous he's become in the eyes of his enemies (and allies) - A Good Man Goes To War isn't some heroic stand against a great Evil - It is the Doctor giving in to all his worst and darkest instincts in the belief that he is right. Demon's Run is the Doctor's "Darkest Hour", not because of the people who died, or even because Amy lost River - it is his darkest hour, because it is where he realized, that he had become the villain of the story. Could the episode be better? Absolutely. But the Doctor's behavior and choices in the episode is perfectly in line with what the 11th Doctor has been building up to - even the 10th Doctor crossed moral lines in the belief that he was right to do so - and the 11th Doctor was a natural progression of that attitude. This episode starts out showing the Doctor as he sees himself: The hero, gathering his allies to save his friend from evil - playing heroic music and showing grand scenes displaying his power and fury (destroying the cybermen, etc.) - only to flip it around at the end, revealing how the rest of the universe sees him; a chaotic and dangerous force that threatens innocent people.

[@ptolemeeselenion1542]

Wow.

[@deadpooldan9862]

I think one of the lines that perfectly exemplifies how far he CAN go is when he says that good men don’t need rules, and today’s not the day to find out why he does. He has rules to keep himself in check, because he knows EXACTLY what he’s capable of, but even with all his rules and moral code, the universe STILL sees him as the bad guy

[@suad01]

Specifically, the doctor's enemies want to prevent the return of Gallifrey. To do this they created the fixed point in time where the doctor 'died' at Lake Silencio in 2011.

[@altinaykor364]

excuses! excuses if the episode really was trying to (or even had the ability to) show the Doctor turning into this monstrous, it could learn at least from Waters Of Mars, someone actually calling him out on it and be harsh enough, instead of the woman we all know at this point is obsessed with him. not to use all of those heroic music and characters actually glorifying him. and he doesn't seem to realize that he has turned into the exact person Davros described in "Journey's End"

[@RoyalKingOliver]

I genuinely don’t understand why Moffat didn’t do a 2 parter. It only makes sense! Also, holy crap Series 6 felt like another big peak in modern Who. This was the pinnacle season of the Smith era just in sheer spectacle alone. The only other thing that beats it is, of course, the Day of the Doctor movie special

[@timibadmus7121]

A two parter would’ve dragged the story wasn’t very fast paced as one part

[@RoyalKingOliver]

@@timibadmus7121 You see but then we could’ve had more build up on some of these other characters as well. But eh, it’s such a conflicting episode

[@timibadmus7121]

@@RoyalKingOliver fair enough but I feel like there just wasn’t enough story there to drag it out you can only do so much character development before it gets boring

[@timibadmus7121]

@@RoyalKingOliver especially if they’re gonna die anyway

[@RoyalKingOliver]

@@timibadmus7121 That’s very true Like the concept of the story works, but there’s just too much messy stuff to call it a good episode Literally the last like, 15 minutes or so when they reveal River is what keeps this episode afloat

[@PlanetNateGaming]

Rory: Do you want me to repeat the question? best companion moment ever also this is one of my favorite episodes of the 11th Doctor era,it showcases the lengths The Doctor will go to to keep his companions from harm when given the opportunity to do so,it also showcases The Doctor's cunning when oppossed by people he has been protecting for tens of thousands of year,this episode also showcases how well The Doctor and Rory work together despite their bickering in early episodes,there's just so much to like about it but my favorite part is The Doctors "trickster act".

[@ptolemeeselenion1542]

Hm.

[@matthewparker9276]

The time vortex conception doesn't contradict established lore. It is explicitly stated in the episode that time lords became what they are through prolonged exposure to the time vortex over generations, and that river song gets chosen one status by being the only one conceived in the time vortex (at least from parents not already time lords.)

[@libbyford6765]

God I love this episode! Flawed beyond belief but so damn good anyway its one of my favourites and I could defend it for hours, but I have to mention something you talked about - the doctor ‘collecting debts’ and building an army is supposed to be extreme and out of character, but he did so because he is so desperate to save his family (one of the longest lasting companions for him using the show timeline as we know it). I think that really makes sense, and in my opinion the way the scenes play out of the doctor being high on power (like the epic run away speech etc.) it is explicitly shown to the viewer that this is not who he is supposed to be, it’s dangerous and him being emotional is going to cause big problems, which it does. It makes sense that he would resort to a dark state of mind when pushed like this due to his history and this story explored that darkness in some of the best ways with some of the best acting of modern who like you said. I wish this story would have been given more time and more characters were available for a cameo but I think what it ended as was still brilliant and it definitely includes one of the best plot twists of the entire show which I also lovvveee especially as river is one of my favourite characters.

[@roho10011]

Amen!

[@danielmattackal6801]

Dude, totally agree. Amy and Rory are literally family later but at that point figuratively. That’s why lots of people like them as they’re the closest thing and the real thing that the doctor has to family. And river’s reveal was just too much for me right after Melody melts.

[@smperhero]

I don't think the Doctor was guilting people they helped before, I'm pretty sure those were villains of offscreen adventures that the Doctor put up with extra struggles in order to save. Their backstories and lines suggest they had done horrible things and were reluctantly changing their ways only because they knew the Doctor kept an eye on them and could come back at any moment for further judgement. Vastra was an exception since she committed herself to helping her community and Strax showed an improvement in character during the episode, which is why the Doctor ended up forming more of a friendship with them later on.

[@Alovon]

Also even if he guilted them into it, it does sort of fit into the idea that Demon's Run is a point where the Doctor simultaneously reaches very high then crashes very low and it's one of his darkest hours. The kidnapping of a Companion that is arguably closer than Rose was to him when he was 10 (11 pretty much/literally is part of the Pond family after all), along with her child all in the efforts to kill him for a reason he can't/doesn't know likely is wracking his head, and put him in "This has to get solved NOW" mode.

[@ptolemeeselenion1542]

Hm.

[@coruscanta]

Exactly! I took it as either that for some, and a “simple” request for others. The “please you can’t need me!” Was said because he knew he’d say yes if asked, because how do you tell the doctor no. Which, yes, a power imbalance makes it more complicated than a simple request, but I never saw it as guilting or malicious manipulation or anything.

[@astra3310]

2:35 it’s not really genocide when you consider what happens to a Cyberman to turn them from Flesh Form to Cyber Form. They are savagely cut and pulled from their own body, imprisoned in a metal/plastic cage suspended in chemical solution, and have their very souls suppressed bc almost all go mad seeing and feeling such a permanent change from warm flesh to cold steel. It’s not Genocide, it’s Mercy. It’s ending a living hell.

[@insertnamehere1838]

Also it’s not like the doctor mass-“murdering” the cybermen is anything new. (Rise if the cybermen/age of steel)

[@jonathanward2527]

Cybermen are still living beings. Not that you would call it living because you'd be in constant pain, but they are still living; something which the Doctor himself says in The Age of Steel

[@Darknesto2k11]

It’s not genocide, it’s pest control

[@astra3310]

@@jonathanward2527 exactly. They’re in constant pain without hope of release. That’s not Living. That’s Hell.

[@jonathanward2527]

@@astra3310 An important distinction is necessary I think. The Cybermen are alive but not living, so I apologise for my previously vague and misleading statement about them being living beings.

[@wayneigoe6722]

Not only was Barrowman busy with Miracle Day, but he was also probably starting filming of his scenes in Arrow. Since season 1 of Arrow premiered in 2012.

[@ItsMeHarry]

This episode has so many great aspects and so many that I just feel fall flatter than they should've. Whether this needed to be a 2-parter, or there be more connections to previous series' (like Liz 10 who may have been more easily available), or whatever else idk. The River reveal and moment the baby is revealed to be a ganger are brilliant, but more needed to be built up of the characters that were introduced instead of just...introducing them then them next turning up mid-fight.

[@kyeflint1]

Are you really going to say a time lord being made while on the tardis doesn’t make more sense than the timeless child BS? It makes complete sense given that is how timelords came to be as a race with exposure to the time vortex over time. The doctor is not the timeless child, the master lied. It’s the only explanation that makes even an ounce of sense

[@mitchellhorton9382]

Lol the Timeless child makes plenty of sense if you consider the possibility that Rassilon was a lying megalomaniac

[@notapplicable6985]

​@@mitchellhorton9382Everything can make sense in dr who, but one thing that I liked about the doctor was that on gallifrey he was basically just some random person befoee doing adventures

[@IGSA101]

I still ascribe to the "The Master was actually the timeless child" theory, it just makes more sense for the characters and story.

[@jonathonriddle9922]

0:56 - "A very self-indulgent mess of hypocrisy and random twists" Couldn't have put it better myself!

[@tzarg]

I'd say the same

[@aaronp6476]

Completely agree with this review. But to be fair, The Doctor chooses people that have already seen plenty of combat and have skills that would provide a tactical advantage. It’s not like he grabbed Mel and whacked an Uzi 9mm in her hands ordering her to gun down a bunch of headless monks (although I would pay to see that)

[@HarboWholmes]

Just give Mel a megaphone and even the Headless Monks would hear her scream

[@aaronp6476]

@@HarboWholmes 😂 i doubt she needs a megaphone

[@theredguy4043]

Now if Ace showed up with her bat and a bag full of dynamite, then that would be cool......or Jamie literally throwing hands with little to no protection

[@AssassinIsAfk]

@@theredguy4043 nah just rescue adric and put him into this episode it would make the army, the women who's evil and the monks want to just jump off of demons run and suffer in the cold vacuum of space

[@Jayforeman3047]

Imagine if Vincent had just showed up and splashed some paint on the Headless Monks.

[@sarahnadeofpoetry]

Dorian was the one commenting on the Doctor's recruitment of his former friends/allies, so it was all from Dorian's perspective, and who knows how truthful he was being considering how slimy he was. It also says a lot, I think, that he was the only person shown to have received harsher attention from the Doctor during his visit.

[@k-majik]

I do think the point of the episode is that the Doctor went way too far, I think it's meant to pull the rug out from under the audience's hero worship and realise that the Doctor is going against everything he stands for in a kind of selfish aggrandising way. But in execution this message doesn't quite come across for the reasons you point out.

[@qdllc]

Wow…not a comment about “Colonel Runaway.” That scene just shows how dark the Doctor was capable of being but for his personal ethics.

[@judeconnor-macintyre9874]

When I first watched this I thought I missed a bunch of episodes explaining who Strax, Jenny, and Vastra were. I think this episode would be better if they were established.

[@experiencefanatic4380]

As someone going through a lot of Doctor who for the first time (currently on season 7 episode 5) I've got to say that with a few exemptions, I absolutely love the Matt Smith era simply for the tone and bombastic-ness. Sure the RTD era is much better written but something about seasons 5-7 works for me on another level, and I think it comes down to tone and scale

[@rowandunkin6802]

I'm doing exactly the same thing and am on the same episode as you

[@zachanikwano]

You go to RTD era for good writing, you go to Moffat's era for the feels

[@elosant2061]

@@zachanikwano Actually I go to moffat for both.

[@vanessalore9942]

I think RTD is a wonderful drama writer, but Moffat is a much better Sci-fi writer

[@mitchellhorton9382]

Moffat and Smith really knew how to do big moments but Moffat's stories hyped themselves up and kept not delivering

[@vanessalore9942]

I unapologetically love this entire series and particularly this episode. I know people get hung up on the reveal, but for me the key to this episode is the acting. By now, these three actors have come such a long way in their roles. Terrific performances by all involved.

[@Jedi_Spartan]

14:24 I just interpreted it as the Doctor not meeting her yet because time traveller.

[@ARMarTy_]

Feels more right and more in character in my opinion, at least that's what I always thought whenever I see the episode

[@morganleanderblake678]

I love how the "who is she" line is supposed to show you that he's so compassionate that he just said what she needed to hear and ignored the rest - but actually he just looks sort of callous.

[@IDidntSetAHandle]

11:25 - Have to disagree with this assessment of Moffat wanting his cake, and also to eat it, and RTD never having done the same. 10 is most definitely presented as a fist-pumping hero as much as a potential villain in Waters of Mars specifically.

[@yuwu585]

Yeah but that's because he went too far that one time. It's not like in one episode he's a campy liberal pacifist and in the next he commits genocide. It's just he went too far one time and played god, which was also the start of his final decline

[@ptolemeeselenion1542]

Indeed.

[@sansome.sc09]

​@erosion271Harbo really does just talk about nothing and expects it to come across as constructive

[@altinaykor364]

nonsense with 10 in Waters Of Mars, the entire episode, characters, music even god damn camera and atmosphere knows that he has gone too far and he was heartbroken over what Davros told him in Journey's End, which is the exact thing that 11 does in here. in here, the entire time 11 is treated as a hero and glorified despite taking a much worse step and the exact person who supposedly calls him out, is the one we all know at this point is obsessed with him and her original intentions are to cheer him up.

[@altinaykor364]

@erosion271 go look at the mirror to find the person you're describing

[@castielthebestangle1615]

Always be sad that because of miracle day jack couldn’t be in the ep

[@danielmattackal6801]

And also, it’s not sacrificing lore, the time lords were created by looking into the time vortex. Being born in it would probably make a part time lord

[@shmikex]

If it wasn't for the transforming robot in the next episode, I'd almost thing the Doctor who "dies" in the first episode is a ganger. That's what I thought after this two parter. I think the idea on who the Doctor chooses to recruit isn't a group on innocents who he saves, but rather a group of at one point "villains" that during his conflict with them the Doctor offered another way and they actually took it (unlike the usual villains we see who spit in the Doctor's face). This is why we don't get Martha, Mickey, Sarah Jane, etc. But rather we get who we got (and almost Jack who started out as a conman himself). Though bringing the pilots back make no sense and Canton should have really been in this episode. Lastly, I always understood the Amy to ganger switch took place between episode one and two of this series. On the upside at least they didn't fake someone's (probably Rory's) death just to have them show up later on and say "oh that corpse was a ganger".

[@EthoPhoenix]

Honestly this episode is my favourite of the entire show, and I don't even know how to properly explain it

[@david.l8698]

"The Timeless Child established that regeneration is artifical and timelords aren't actually a species". No, regeneration was always artifical. Vastra literally said, "your people became what they were through prolonged exposure to the Time Vortex". So the Timelords were never built like this, they developed the abilities through exposure to the Vortex. The TC is bollox anyway but it can be passed off as, following the TC, over the course of the Timelords evolution, they discovered another way to regenerate. An origin for the abilities, and that was through Vortex experimentation.

[@Comicbroe405]

Exactly. Weird he missed it cuz he was almost there.

[@ITSMeatMan]

The headless monks do make a cameo appearance in the Husbands of River Song as guards of King Hydroflax

[@backpackerraden6268]

The one thing I will always give credit to this episode for is one of Steven Moffat's more fascinating bits of writing advice "When you are going to have a reveal, the answer to the reveal has to be just as complicated as the question." (I believe it was in the confidential but I can't find the clip for the life of me)

[@lilithhedwig5408]

Tbh I think it’s bullshit but it explains so much lol

[@backpackerraden6268]

@@lilithhedwig5408 There's a lot of truth in it, but I think the problem is making everything "too complicated"

[@lilithhedwig5408]

@@backpackerraden6268 yeah exactly Sometimes there's beauty in simplicity

[@Name-ot3xw]

The episode isn't my favorite, but I do like Rory the Last Centurion. The headless monks were cool too, shame they didn't get much screen time. They could make a good future bad guy, or even neutral like the Ood.

[@zachanikwano]

I honestly really wish River Song's character had gone in a different direction. The universe feels so small when taking the Star Wars route, making everyone related.

[@cyberemperor1435]

When it said “his darkest hour” I think it meant of this incarnation

[@TheDoctorOfThrills]

I feel like it's kind of rich to call a takeover with 0 deaths "too far". It's super frustrating calling it *his* darkest moment bc he didn't do anything wrong other than fall into a trap of Kovarian's design. If anyone went to far it was that bitch.

[@theinvisiblegentleman1142]

It seems like you're taking Maldovar's words as gospel. He's clearly a self-centered opportunist, who sees everything in business terms. Just because he views the doctor's actions as "calling in debts" doesn't mean the doctor or his allies see it that way. I don't think the doctor guilted any of them (except Maldovar, who seems like he kinda deserved it). He just showed up, said "hey, this thing is happening, I need help, I know you're a solid operator when things go south, could you come with me?" And they said yes.

[@lawrencelopez9839]

River and the baby can't be at the same place since they're the same person it's going back to the beginning of her personal timeline

[@edwardreed67]

I love how Moffat wrote himself into such a corner that the whole reason the stuff with the Silence, the Crack, River and even Trenzalore… was because Amy and Rory banged on the TARDIS one time.

[@johannvongenerico9487]

There's definitely some good stuff in here, the opening with Rory is great, and the melody ganger reveal is brutal and so well acted from Amy, but it's a messy episode with some downs too

[@lucypreece7581]

Alex Kingston was the Alan Rickman of the Moffatt era

[@CineScarborough]

It's kind of surprising that Moffat didn't try to add Sarah Jane into this episode. The problem with new characters for a scene where the Doctor recruits an army is that we have no idea who any of them are, whereas we'd have had more emotional attachment if Sarah had turned up with her Sonic Lipstick. He could have also tried to get Freema Agyeman as Martha, and if he couldn't get John Barrowman as Jack, why not Eve Myles as Gwen?

[@nextstop-everywhere]

The Doctor collecting on his debts by recruiting people to die for him and the loss of Melody sounds like his darkest hour to me. I think that's what River was referring to.

[@Lego1upMushroom]

For some reason this is one of my favorite episodes of the entire show

[@Wackydude27]

This was my first ever doctor who episode and it got me to watch and fall in love with the show. Even now it is one of my favourite episodes. Never knew it was so divisive!

[@vanessalore9942]

Every episode can be seen as divisive in some way. Just enjoy it and don’t let other peoples opinions ruin it for you. 😊

[@DigitalVanquish]

"Wars not make one great" - Yoda. It isn't meant to be The Doctor's finest hour. Greatest hour is taking the station from an army that's dedicated themselves to fighting him, within single-digit minutes. He completed out-maneuvered them. Darkest hour is realising this was all his fault. He's become too egotistical and comfortable. The fact that he called on debts to declare war. I think it completely fits The Doctor post-Time War - carrying on the idea from The Waters of Mars that he feels like he can do whatever he wants. I like that it shows that even though the 11th Doctor is more playful and silly, he still has the same arrogance. He's still the same man. I mean, the 10th Doctor says a Time Lord can live too long, and this is the 11th Doctor older still. It just has a more hopeful ending, because we can literally see that it works out in the end. If River didn't show up to tell everyone not to worry, it would've worked better as a great rise, and then fall, like in Avengers Infinity War when the heroes all come together like never before, just to then lose. And then the film simply ends for them - they aren't the ones smiling at a sunset.

[@rainestar82]

its also no coincidence that he has a revelation in the middle of it, that he (and by extension his people) are seen as a weapon and warrior, not a hero. Carries on the theme/story set up in the s5 finale PERFECTLY while adding on far reaching consequences and a Blue Screen moment for him. That's the "fall" River meant, what she shows up to prevent. The past has shown that a disillusioned Doctor is a dangerous one. I've always thought of 11 being a continuation of 10, those last moments of loss and loneliness, anger and fear all drive 11 even more than they did 10. It's also why 11 feigns that childlike goofiness but can snap into cold anger just as fast as 10. Its a pretty flawless example of characterization arcing across Doctors. AGMGTW is one of my all time fav DW episodes so I know I'm biased, but even plot holes aside, its a pretty great display of all previous foreshadowing/setup coming together and making the audience (and the characters!) realize how interconnected it all was. Which is exactly how a time and space travel show should be to me1

[@andrewmurray1550]

counter that with "You would make a good Dalek!".

[@unorthodoxbox]

I like this story, I have my gripes with it but I do enjoy it. I am mostly irritated the silence don't show themselves in this story, I felt that this being connected to the Silence they'd be more involved in the plot. I agree on the order 66 like beat down of the team the Doctor has acquired. Could've had a good chunk of them killed off to add weight to the story. Thinking about that if twelve had met Vastra and Jenny in Deep Breath who died at Demons Run it could've contributed to his "Good Man Arc" remembering how he used them and questioning his own actions.

[@michaelreffold3170]

Or maybe they do show up, you just don't remember...

[@harryjackson8520]

I still think it would have been cool if the Doctor built another K9 to fight as part of the army

[@LibertyBridgeProductions]

I swear this is like the most popular era of the show though.

[@Endarius_Termina]

All of those boxes contain the heads of the headless monks and if i remember they are kept in a pseudo-Time stasis or some such.

[@Endarius_Termina]

If i remember correctly Moffat explained the Pseudo-Timelord DNA mirrors the evolution of the original Timelords due to the exposure to the time vortex but the Timeless children just makes it so weird. (Personally i hope the new master and all that timeless children stuff comes from a parallel universe and the real Master/Missy got their reconciling death and the weird regeneration backstory just isn't this universe and only clouds the water further)

[@henrypeters5291]

I mean you could say it's his darkest hour for this incarnation. It's one of the only times 11 just gets beaten and is not able to retaliate against his enemy.

[@extraplain2412]

"oh dear god, that's the attack prayer!" Is one of the funniest lines I've ever heard

[@Keglanek]

The Doctor didnt commit genocide, the Doctor allowed the Cybermen on those ships to hear Rory 's message and decided to blow themselves up, rather then face down the Doctor and the Last Centurion.

[@Galvatronover]

A citation for this claim

[@insertnamehere1838]

@@Galvatronover source: Trust me bro

[@Galvatronover]

@@insertnamehere1838 source : I swear I’m not making this up to cover wholes

[@monarchberry1107]

@@Galvatronover My citation is that I made it the fk up!

[@thetommygunshow]

I'd like to think when it comes to the Cybermen, it's more like mercy killings.

[@haladast7715]

AGMGTW Feels like Moffat walked into the writers room said he wanted to write a story where the Doctor "Rises higher than ever before and then falls so much further" and then didn't put any thought into the smaller pieces to connect all the set pieces and plot beats of the story.

[@PsyrenXY]

"Burying the gays with such force even Chris Chibnall would be proud" Savage

[@joseignacioreallozano348]

You cant complain about River saying this is the doctors darkest hour and then complain when he does things like collecting the debts. Granted, he doesnt do what he does to get a reward, but Smith's doctor has always been the manipulative one, once pushed to the edge, he can really do very nasty stuff. Thats him doing that. The darkest hour isnt him doing such an atrocious thing, is more a morally wrong thing imo And you basically watch the episode from amys perspective, where the doctor looks all powerful and amazing doing all this stuff. But you can see through characters as Vastra, Rory, or the villain whose namy I dont remember or Lorna that he is in the wrong here, and what he is doing is not very Doctorish

[@magoo9866]

That's so cool about the alternate endings for the river reveal, makes me really wonder what the other ones were (although in hindsight, melodie pond/river song sounds pretty obvious lol)

[@philipgood5041]

3:51 whilst I agree that wiping out his own species was worse, I think the reason that it's a candidate for his darkest hour is because he sees that the whole universe now considers him not a man of peace, but a destroyer, conquering hero, feared as much as he is loved.

[@HarlieSparrow]

It's his darkest hour because he's calling in all "the debts"

[@altinaykor364]

As far as I saw, the moment all of those debts were collected, the voice inside the episode said it's his "highest hour" the moment he became exactly what Davros described him is called his highest hour and only goes dark once he's defeated by the end, without anyone calling him out on the things he had done and the line he crossed. try to find better excuses

[@Timelord6661]

I'm sorry but you've missed the point of this episode. The Doctor's darkest hour refers to the fact he never typically would rally a team together in his favour. Imagine suggesting that line doesn't mean anything, then on the other hand say it's out of character. If it feels that way, it's because that's the point. I feel like you've ignored the character study aspect going on. "A good man goes to war" is supposed to be an oxymoron. The Doctor doesn't see himself as a "good man" at this point and is therefore rallying past favours to fight back from being scorned, this is him embracing his ego. Which is another extension of his time war guilt. Surely? It's an intentional deconstruction of the Doctor's fearful universe spanning reputation pulling the rug from under him and the audience at the end to highlight this. That's why his behaviour is glorified then demonised at the start. The favourable comparison to Stolen Earth is disingenuous and isn't relevant to what this episode is doing. Just exposes an RTD favouritism bias. You're right that Moffat is misunderstood as your "critique" of this reads as a misunderstanding of what this episode is doing.

[@elzzz2000]

Agree with everything you said

[@alexbanks9510]

Fully respect your opinion to place it at C, I can see how you came to that conclusion. But honestly it's a fave and I'd rate it much higher, at least a B, maybe an A

[@rhodrage]

I assumed he asked who Lorna was cause he hadn't met her yet. Not what you said.

[@BrontoSmilodon1]

didn't expect the Justice league comparison to come out of nowhere and hit me in the gut.

[@laraalston8161]

i don't care if this episode is considered a big mess, it still remains one of my favorites

[@Gootsthegoots]

Will we get more Torchwood reviews 👉🏻👈🏻🥺

[@jmace2424]

I think you missed what Vastra was saying. She is saying that none of the good guys got hurt. The fact that the monks turned on their own side is irrelevant.

[@deadpooldan9862]

Personally, I always felt the Doctor was pretty egotistical at times, even 9 and 10. They knew their reputation in the universe and used it to their advantage quite a few times, but 11 specifically used it in this episode, especially when he’s very comfortable having guns pointed at him knowing they’d never hit him. He doesn’t consider himself a great warrior, but he knows how frightening he is, just not that people would form an army to oppose him because he’s so terrifying. He definitely goes too far in this episode, it’s both his greatest triumph and biggest fall

[@altinaykor364]

nonsense of a person who clearly hasn't watched

[@deadpooldan9862]

@@altinaykor364 I’ve seen all of new Who, this is just the truth, maybe go back and watch the show

[@altinaykor364]

@@deadpooldan9862 I watch what I'm talking about all the time, because unlike this garbage era which I can definitely live without, those episodes are what I always return to

[@Boom__6678]

I love this episode, but there's nothing I can put against your review, you are quite correct. It does need most of the other episode to make sense.

[@leowulf5280]

I know 10s final goodbye was a thing, but Mickey and Martha would have been perfect to have show up here.

[@zachh6868]

Having Canton show up would've been cool. His character is so cool for some reason.

[@zachh6868]

The episode does have a lot of cool setup. Now that I think about it, they could totally bring back the Madam Vastra gang (i have no idea how to spell the official name) in the current episodes. That would be cool. And Clara dopplegangers. And Canton!

[@Adam-to2no]

I like this episode a lot I do. I would say it’s in my top ten

[@mayotango1317]

I'm surprised you forgot the "the word Doctor means Great Warrior on other planets". Another good foreshadowing to the War Doctor.

[@mrdr0161]

It wasn't foreshadowing anything though because the war doctor hadn't even been thought of yet

[@mayotango1317]

@@mrdr0161 Really? kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIKWoZSGab1gr6s

[@tomnorton4277]

Moffat hadn't planned for John Hurt to be the Doctor at this point. He pulled that out when it was time to tackle the 50th Anniversary and it's a testament to both his writing and Hurt's performance that they managed to slot a completely new Doctor between McGann and Ecclestone without it being unbelievable.

[@mayotango1317]

@@tomnorton4277 You think?

[@MuchWhittering]

I was on holiday when this aired and didn't see it until like a week later. I didn't have a smart phone in 2011 so I was basically off the grid while I was away, so it was nice not having this spoiled for me.

[@insanelane8133]

Well jack was ment to be in this episode and they was going to explain how he gor his head cut of to be the face of bow, just he wasnt around for filming which i aways wonded how it would have gone down 😔

[@johnydl]

Why can it not be eleven's/this incarnation of the doctor's darkest hour, or the darkest hour that River and the Ponds get to see, rather than the whole story of the doctor? I know it's poorly phrased if that's the intent but it's also reasonable given that AFAIK the first time that River gets to know about the time war shenanigans is when Clara becomes Souflet Girl long after the library

[@louiescott6145]

I like the way the doctor comes back to get people he saved to help him. Shows how desperate he is

[@thestreakingninja]

I just very recently got into dr who so when i learned about the headless monks, all i can think about is Mike the Headless chicken lol

[@danielmattackal6801]

Actually, Amy was kidnapped and replaced in day of the moon when they kidnap her.

[@Mitch_Fisherman]

I can’t wait to see “The Name of the Doctor” episode review, I was so hyped and it was a good episode but they advertised it like you we’re gonna find out his real name and it was a bit annoying when ya didn’t, I’m glad we don’t know but at the same time if they say they’re gonna tell us, tell us ahaha

[@tomnorton4277]

For all his flaws, Moffat's nowhere near as stupid as Chibnall. He knows that we don't want to know the Doctor's name or his past. Those mysteries are part of the show's charm.

[@alyssiagibbs8147]

I think when river talks about the doctor falling so much further she’s talking about how he failed her, you can tell she still holds some small amount of anger against him, bc she partially blames him for what happened to her. she was taken from her parents and didn’t even get to have a chronological, regular life with them. she didn’t get a regular life period. she was raised and trained specifically to kill the man she then fell in love with. and part of her blames him for that. which is fairly understandable actually

[@ptolemeeselenion1542]

Hm.

[@Paradox-es3bl]

The River Song/Melody Pond twist blew me away but the rest of the episode is kinda crap. Doctor Who did it better before, with The Stolen Earth and Jack and Rose and everyone... and yeah, it's very much not his Darkest Hour and stuff. And what crappy retcons and other plot messes.

[@zachh6868]

What is River was just calling it "The Darkest Hour" so that the events would unfold according to plan. She needs The Doctor to think it's going to be his darkest hour. She needs the war doctor to come through and not hold back for the timeline to workout

[@speciesmg7537]

The only fault with A Good Man Goes To War is how cramped it feels. It would have worked much better as a two parter. Nice comparison with Stolen Earth & Journeys End.

[@user-qw2cf3tr8h]

One of my favourite episodes tbh

[@mitchellhorton9382]

I think the Doctor gathering up friends to help him rescue a baby tracks personally. We know he works with friends (he always has Companions obviously) Personally I do think the Doctor would blackmail someone morally dubious into helping him if he was pushed far enough, but I don't think this episode really justifies it.

[@joshuareynolds23]

Just saying it's meant to be a horrific moment. the whole point of him collecting his allies and, building an army to rescue one person is so out of character that armies run at the mention of his name. And, it feels like a heroic moment because that's what we expect our heroes to do even though it's completely counter to what he's generally like. Once again pointing out the Colonel run away line specifically to show how angry he is and how ill conceived his plan was. He does what he was never meant to do and, as a result his Silurian allies were frozen presumably killing them strax was seemingly mortally wounded they lose the baby and, an innocent who just wanted to see him again was killed. It's an incredibly dark day for him. As for killing his people being his darkest day he had no choice then it was either let the war continue and, wipe out all of existence or, end it all. Here he made a conscious decision to endanger people who didn't really owe him anything and, risked there lives because Ultimately someone got the better of him.

[@zwordsman]

The best thing of this episode is not the Doctor. It is Rory. Rory diving deep into his own huge past and pain, and without an immortal body. Running around literally decimating armies looking for his wife. Yes. the doctor is doing a lot in the background sure. but Rory is literally the spear head

[@TechnicalTatertot]

A good man goes to war is my favorite episode ever. I think it's just purely fantastic with twists and turns and an opening that gives me chills everytime.

[@solomonkane6442]

My favourite episode has to be "the rings of akhaten " matt smiths speech is amazing

[@danielmattackal6801]

Also, River is acting like that. She explains in Angels take Manhattan

[@thehalfbloodserb]

The comparison of this episode and the waters of mars, and how the message is muddled by the presentation of the plot is basically the root of game of thrones' issues, particularly with daenerys In the books it shows her inner struggle between wanting to inspire peace/not be queen of the ashes and wanting to be a targaryen and embrace the fire and blood conquering mindset of her ancestors. Even scenes that seem inspiring at first in the books, such as killing all the masters by burning/hanging and freeing the slaves is shown to have unexpected bad consequences as it leads to instability in the region, where the people in meereen are now starving and fighting each other for resources because she destroyed the existing economic system without establishing a new one. Also her mistrust of the meereenese culture and assuming her way is best is shown to be the cause of a lot of her issues in the books (essentially commentary on the US in the middle east). If the show had included this complexity rather than playing heroic music every time she killed someone she didn't like, and if the show hadn't completely changed the conclusion of the meereen plot to be "might and aggression is the best response as they're all terrorists anyway", then maybe the transformation of dany into the warmongering villain she is in season 8 wouldn't have come across as a total shock. The show would have stayed consistent with it's message, rather having its thematic backflip from season 6's "wow these violent characters are so empowering and badass" to season 8's (and likely grrm's) "war is pointless and cyclical, the best way to end it is to break the cycle and give leadership to those with empathy and wisdom rather than the ones who forced the fighting in the first place"

[@ChrissieBear]

So why does the PAPAL mainframe consist of ANGLICANs?

[@jtaur2400]

it would have been cool to have Rory at the helm of a cohort of legionaries all in uniform but that's just me lol

[@batmanbeyond5766]

This is still the best episodes in season 6 in my option