Has Biden Become as Bad as Trump?

“The dam is breaking!” Have the Democrats reached their “break glass in case of emergency” moment? This week, Michelle, Ross and Lydia dig into the Democratic Party fissures, consider what could happen if President Biden refuses to bow out, and debate just how much this moment mirrors the Republican scramble against Trump in 2016.
(A full transcript of this episode will be available within 24 hours of publication on the Times website.)
Mentioned in this episode:
• George Clooney: I Love Joe Biden. But We Need a New Nominee (www.nytimes.com/2024/07/10/op...) .
• The Case for Joe Biden (www.nytimes.com/2020/02/27/op...) by Ross Douthat
• Ezra Klein: A Path to Defeat (www.thebulwark.com/p/ezra-kle...) from “The Bulwark Podcast”
Thoughts about the show? Email us at [e-mail] or leave a voicemail at [phone].

[@janepappas1032]

Conspiring against Bernie Sanders has proven to be a grave mistake.

[@justatiger6268]

NYT thinks it was totally worth it. These people prefer Trump over Bernie.

[@mikewilliams6025]

Keeping the Commies out is always better than the alternative. Like Biden has made a real mess. But at least you aren't eating dog.

[@qn57]

Indeed, and the only worse mistake is conspiring for Biden.

[@ProfessionalBadPerson]

Not really, Biden was more electable then Bernie in 2020 and the margins were pretty narrow

[@bocelott]

@@ProfessionalBadPerson Only because the DNC establishment got behind Biden and did everything to block Bernie. It was not a fair contest in 2016 or 2020. This is well-established.

[@richkelleher3134]

It must be so humiliating to be the “paper of record” and be 3 years too late to things

[@direwolf6234]

worse it's a reflection on all the ivy league educations they got just to get hired

[@tb8865]

Especially when everyone's MAGA uncle on Facebook was posting boomer memes telling them what was up lol.

[@stuffbenlikes]

It's worse, they knew and they lied.

[@LibertarianLatina]

True😂

[@tib7777]

at least 5 years late.

[@masonm600]

24:20 the idea that "Dems are good people and would stop an unfit president, while Republicans are bad people for not doing that" The people who flipped on that are indeed what disturb me most about the Dems right now.

[@kevinwoolley7960]

Clownish sentiment, demonizing the opposition, complete partisan blindness.

[@the_derpler]

It’s funny to me that normies act like they just realized Biden was sadly gone like 3 weeks ago. Everyone else knew for years.

[@qvixote430]

The Democrat media machine has been persistent in covering this up- chalking it up to a mere stutter. Truth is, Old CornPop has been evidently in decline since 2017. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pZrLh2yvp7-Ffsksi=sIDk8JmyxtHid3wE

[@r8chlletters]

The dems took great pains to remove Bernie. This is the fruit from a rotten tree.

[@aensti9077]

…mmh, Bernie is too left for a majority of the people…and you should respect that…you can‘t just shape the world on and for your own…

[@albertcscs]

I would rather have lost with Bernie than won with Biden. Trump would be gone after this election, and Biden would been gone for four years now. There would not have been a January 6 insurrection, and this Supreme Court immunity for everything would also never have happened. Nothing that Biden has done as President is that wonderful that a Democratic President couldn't implement it next year. And obviously, we wouldn't be in this mess now! After this election, the Dems will be out of the White House for a long time.

[@emilmedellin4525]

And it's worse still. Much like Trump engaging in business fraud in furtherance of election fraud, so too did the DNC & Hillary campaign (2016) and DNC and Biden campaign (2020). In both instances, Bernie supporters were swindled out of money (hundreds of millions) they believed to be going toward a 'fair & balanced' nomination process only to find out that both Hillary and Joe were chosen by party operatives. If Trump was charged and convicted ...

[@emilmedellin4525]

​@@aensti9077Only for a minority. Bernie beat Trump both in 2016 & 2020 by BETTER margins in nearly ALL polls than either Hillary, or Joe.

[@LuxPerp]

@@aensti9077you should respect that and not try silence popular alternatives to your particular favorite.

[@StanleyGrill]

You said “let’s get serious” and then proceeded to go on with 100% nonsense. Please NY Times, when did you decide to become the NY Post?

[@chrimony]

Hilarious how the apparatchiks went from "saving democracy" to "we need an elite class to pick the nominees".

[@skyinsession]

that was amazing, really showing their whole ass in the last couple minutes

[@benvoncamp]

wait, who is the 'elite class' in this case? My senator because I have written her now 3 times demanding she do everything possible to get him to pull out?

[@bert3163]

1) decide what you want 2) back your way into a justification 3) deflect and deny until next news cycle

[@direwolf6234]

well the people did vote .. but now find out their choice is flawed .. so adjustments must be made..

[@tb8865]

Yup and the apparatchiks were covering for the guy they now want ousted by said elite class.

[@EarlyRiser71]

Nothing bad happened at the press conference. He just called Zelenski "Putin" and Trump his Vice President. No biggie.

[@Salmagundiii]

that's the cope I'm seeing in places like the Washington Post comments section. Freakin' unbelievable. Just 'minor flubs' from a guy who was always prone to them.

[@samlee3039]

Well the damage has already been done

[@Isewein]

Yeah, that sure proved prophetic.

[@benvoncamp]

I heard that in the background.... my girlfriend asked if he just confused Trump with Kamala. I accused her of mishearing it because getting that wrong would be IMPOSSIBLE!

[@direwolf6234]

just joe being joe .. if he'd had these flubs 3 years ago we'd be used to it like trump's lies .. all while he fixed covid and passed great bills ..

[@freemarley639]

Didn't watch the debate because I knew it would be a disaster - Biden almost wasn't Obama's VP because he's terrible on his feet - the thought he would find a skill he's never had at 81 was a major misstep.

[@lisalyle4440]

Stop saying Biden won the primary

[@TheWHIGJr]

The non-biased media reporting on the party of democracy 🤡🤡

[@MayorMcC666]

who did?

[@samuraijack1371]

These political analysts as the most unqualified people I have seen. They are just talking gossip. There is zero analysis.

[@MermaidTyrone]

Stop saying 2 + 2 is 4

[@ijadrian]

Biden won the primary. That's what happens when you get 87% of the primary vote.

[@NotANameist]

How did you, the press, not notice his senility until now? How are we supposed to take you seriously still?

[@ijadrian]

They were probably distracted by Biden's unparalleled legislative success against a Republican held House as well as adeptly handling two wars that could escalate into WWIII all while having to watch his son get charged with a felony only because his last name was Biden.

[@radman1136]

Yer not, at least since 2012. Personally ... 1999.

[@Grimpus1972]

What about having Jimmy Carter run for a 2nd term in 2024? I think that would be interesting.

[@AlyxCoe]

Massive risk and uncertainty ...Which is the greater risk, running Biden again or opening up to a truly democratic process?

[@ijadrian]

How can you be more democratic than a primary where 13 million Democrats voted? The problem is no one else will run. Whitmer, Booker, and Beshear have all said they are not running. They know that running in a three month window, when you don't have access to the Biden/Harris money, is not a winning proposition because you never know what skeletons might pop out. They are smartly waiting for when they can run in 2028 when they have the time to properly build a campaign to gain name recognition and raise funds.

[@granthuling3235]

Do people understand that risk involves upside? That upside is needed to have a prospect of winning.

[@AlyxCoe]

@@granthuling3235 why are we afraid of a democratic process? We weren't afraid to kick King George III's ass. Since when were we complete wimps and cowards?

[@troyswain4106]

In the end these geniuses all agree that elites should choose the leaders for everyone. "[We need] some way to temper the will of the majority with the wisdom of the ages [the elites]." And the other liberal replies, "That is BEAUTIFUL!" Do you really want these people in charge?

[@zacharytigert6182]

Why the super negative takes on the logistics of shifting candidates? Here's a counter - it would be an exciting change in a way we've never seen in our lifetimes. It would be a sign that the party is listening to the concerns of voters. It would be change when the majority of Americans want something else other than these two candidates. It's a huge opportunity of energy and excitement if handled right.

[@YouSnoozeYouNooze]

People said it was George Soros but it was actually George Clooney the whole time!

[@welles28]

We are in a situation where both of the major party candidates for president of the United States appear to be unfit for office. That seems like a problem.

[@ijadrian]

One ran the country into ground, the other has brought the economy back faster than any other developed nation while dealing with wars in multiple parts of the world.

[@LibertarianLatina]

Tell everybody you’re uneducated without telling everybody you’re uneducated. Only Trump rejected the WEF, defunded the WHO and questioned NATO’s endless wars. Only Trump was subjected to an unconstitutional FISA warrant created in collaboration with the Demon Party and unconstitutionally spied on while being defamed and maligned with intentional rumors about Russia, our soldiers, taxes, etc. Im embarrassed for those who havent figured out what is happening to our country. America FIRST. 🇺🇸🗽

[@emilmedellin4525]

I think it's both PARTIES are unfit for office, but we tell ourselves what we need to to make it through the day.

[@danielleremp4328]

During the excruciating Biden debate, I saw that he could not dance under the sword of a 2-minute mic cutoff. That was confirmed last night with his complex 10-minute answer to a foreign policy question. Stellar.

[@jfrsnjhnsn]

6:26 Correction: Trump IS a bad candidate, but he's not a weak one. Trump has an unbelievable amount of momentum since the debate, and after this podcast had already aired, trump was shot at.

[@Hozzckharr]

Retirement Home 2024!

[@paulhenry8174]

Was ‘big boy press conference’ the best they could come up with?

[@Michilar]

Really unfortunate designation considering that many older people regress as they get older.

[@jojohns1949]

Biden called Trump his VP instead of Harris no joke

[@kevinwoolley7960]

Oh come on, Reagan in the debates for his second term wasn't remotely as bad as Biden in his recent debate, I witnessed both and Biden is obviously senile and can barely function without notes and a teleprompter. Reagan didn't show signs of senility until relatively late in his second term and at no point as President was he anywhere near where Biden is now.

[@ijadrian]

We didn't have social media back then and Reagan's handlers were better at covering his infirmities. By most accounts, Reagan had had gone downhill since being shot.

[@kevinwoolley7960]

@@ijadrian The video of those debates is available online. Review it. Biden's recent performance was so much worse it's not even on the same planet. By most accounts Reagan won both of those debates. I was alive and witnessed both of them. There is no comparison. No one who witnessed them both has anything to say other than that Biden had the worst debate performance in history.

[@xyz12345457]

No one has ever been as bad as Biden was in that debate. He was humiliated. Not by Donald Trump, but by himself. People forget so quickly. I wish everyone would go back and watch the first 10 minutes of the debate. It is mortifying.

[@xyz12345457]

Another thing I'm wondering and no one is saying out loud is the doctors are either hiding his diagnosis or are the worst doctors on earth and haven't tested him.

[@kevinwoolley7960]

@@xyz12345457 They are hiding the diagnosis. A movement disorder neurologist visited the White House 8 times in the last 9 months. Biden probably has Parkinson's Disease, it's evident to anyone with a little medical training who has watched his gate and the way he turns.

[@direwolf6234]

real meaning of a dilemma - having to choose between two alternatives .. each of have negative consequences

[@snakey973]

Are you even fling kidding me? What a joke NYT has become

[@ArmHope]

A narcissistic old man doesn’t know when to leave 🤔 only Congressman Himes has the guts to tell him to leave

[@joseflemire4284]

Biden's naked thirst for Power has been on display since day 1 in his career. Never liked the guy for that reason not to mention how gutless and ignorant he can be at times...he took ''Asthma'' deferments for Vietnam but would denigrate College students protesting the war....hypocrisy...BIggly!! to use another's description

[@ijadrian]

"A narcissistic old man doesn’t know when to leave". Wait, are you talking about Trump or Biden?

[@zxyatiywariii8]

​@@ijadrianYes. Both.

[@nathancoppini6928]

worse as much as trump would say dumb shit at least there weren’t a bunch of wars raging

[@mickeybeavison1053]

I am the orange man now -Joe Biden, 2024

[@aiwendil83]

Very unprofessional. Who is this New York Times outlet?

[@TheWHIGJr]

Stop saying “riiiight” 🤢

[@fronabulax63]

who is at the wheel in the US?

[@davidbodine1808]

NYT = blown credibility. Spin spin spin. America needs brutal honesty.

[@joiedevie3901]

Ross is walking the ridge between cool analysis and insufferable smugness with the skill of a mountain goat.

[@ngrovotny]

9:00 I can't believe this Douthat guy is so well paid for this kind of idiocy. Yeah, there's a crucial tipping point. It's called the CONVENTION, when the party will announce its candidate. Jeeze what a maroon.

[@nonexistent5030]

Become? Hes always been terrible... playing it politicslly safe and being late to the conclusion rather than right on time.

[@zacharyjordan399]

"What's it going to take to get him to go" "I'm not sure what you're asking" ?????

[@ili626]

No. ..and no need to even listen to the podcast for that unequivocal answer. I’m not saying Dems shouldn’t run someone else, but is Biden as bad as Trump?! .. that’s a dumb question

[@wildfood1]

Hearing journalists say what's on their minds again, hearing something aside from the party line...makes me feel like I woke up from a bad dream. Why did it take a political earthquake to free the shackles which bound journalists and how long will they be free to speak like this? This is what journalism should have ALWAYS sounded like.

[@davidhill7049]

A wonderful insight, Smart. Funny. Knowledgeable. "The truth is Out. What do we do now."

[@EricRosenwaldPhotography]

“Right? Like, right? Right? Like right?” - When will this linguistic tic end?

[@mikeg1381]

I guess what theyre saying is that this should have been an election in which a third party could have won?

[@jamesross3939]

I would vote for Biden if he was in a wheel chair w/ drool coming down his chin talking gibberish and asleep most of the day. Still better than Trump.

[@beltsandedman]

🥴Save muh democracy!!!

[@thedahkterizzin8831]

Kamala, take the wheel, take the wheel Kamala.😂😂😅😅

[@joseflemire4284]

perhaps she is just a poorly suited to win...Open convention!! A good fight is needed in the Democratic Party...clean out the Fence sitters

[@BrianJosephMorgan]

Oh, that mocking laugh of one on the panel. I could not make it all the way through the podcast.

[@flaviodrusovalerio2825]

"the answer might surpise you."

[@richardfitzgerald8313]

Nothing here you haven’t already heard everywhere else.

[@Liquidmuse3]

Holy god, the personalities on here are grating. It’s one thing to think you’re clever & funny in your friend bubble, it’s another to think you convey facts & opinion in an intriguing way to everyone else 😬

[@bocelott]

NYT is so bad.

[@moondog2990]

Maybe next time party elites allow a fair primary to take place instead of fixing it. But it's probably too late, myself and many like me have left the party forever.

[@anzolomyer4584]

You're going to vote for Biden, and you're going to love every second!!! Nanana >:)!!!

[@k.dermer2168]

This is what happens when ypu start the primary season in March. what a great reason to push all primaries to july 1 at the earliest. By then, a candidate who is not healthy would likely be known. And it would really lessen the need for so much money. In a 2 month primary season, you spend a lot less money. I would love having fewer phone calls, emails, paper mail, all of which I ignore anyway. The only losers ate people who make a living off running those awful campaigns. George Clooney could fund raise for charities instead of a political party for the extta 5 months.

[@gishman2]

You basically said that democracy is not good if elites don't like the guy that was picked.

[@philipdamask2279]

Trump had 3 core reasons why he got elected. The border, China and bring jobs back, and the need for a strong military.

[@meh4062]

Both are too senior. They must step down

[@Happy2foundUUU]

I switched to " Optimizing your Omaga 3 intake" halfway through this meaningless "discussion".

[@Pietzu10]

Trump 2024

[@goransemb5689]

No, he hasn't. Well. That was easy. No need to listen now.

[@257.4MHz]

AIPAC See, when you can't point to an American in charge, it's not an American

[@direwolf6234]

nice try ... find a new tune ...

[@Edo9River]

The tipping point, has led us to believe in miracles

[@ericwittman3]

Yeah, democracy is on the ballot this year!!! WTF!

[@TRamone01]

Power. George Washington let go of it. Trump is nothing without it. He'd tear down the country to keep it. And Biden, given his age, should have set up a transition for a younger candidate. Pass the torch to the next generation. But no, he won't let go either. Doesn't anyone serve and go home anymore?

[@beltsandedman]

Yep. Biden vowed during the 2020 campaign that he'd be a 'bridge' candidate and would not seek a 2nd term in 2024...

[@stevenmcvay5193]

truth hurts the Trumpetty lie machine obviously 😡

[@makster86]

"failed businessman Donald Trump" these libs are hilarious, they've learned nothing.

[@rhys5567]

Functional party is anti-democratic?

[@maryannm338]

Simple answer: No.

[@shishkabobby]

Why on earth are you comparing 2024 dems with 2016 republicans? Look at the 2020 republicans, since Trump was running to be reelected.

[@robinhood20253]

As bad at what?

[@seangraham184]

has the New York Times become as bad as the New York post? Stupidest title I have ever seen for a video..

[@ashley3471]

So now we have actors picking our nominee. The people were asked and the people chose who. Just because he's an actor doesn't mean he has to right to slap democrats around.

[@wretchro100]

ummmm....no

[@growitheflow]

💰💰💰

[@stevenmcvay5193]

STOP DELETING FAIR COMMENT!!!🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿😡🇺🇸💙

[@danielleremp4328]

After hearing last light's press conference, I think that President Biden should run, but with a very, very strong Vice President -- one that would inspire rock-solid confidence.

[@r8chlletters]

Who exactly?

[@danielleremp4328]

@@r8chlletters I have reviewed the DEI list of women 0f color, vetted by the Biden campaign, for the 2020 election, and included those that still, in my opinion, pass the “age test”. They are Florida Representative Val Demings 67, Illinois Senator (and Purple Heart recipient) Tammy Duckworth 56, former Atlanta Mayor Keisha Bottoms 54, and New Mexico Governor Michelle Lujan Grisham, 64. I’m sure that,, by now, many more - and younger ones -- could be added to this 4-year-old list. If DEI is not a factor, there are two names of the many mentioned in the media that favor. Consideration Biden’s frailty, I think that these two powerful governors could plausibly accept a VP position, while envision themselves as president before the end of the 2024 term. Ideal, it seems to me, is battleground State Governor of North Carolina Roy Cooper. He is reaching his 2-term limit in January 2025 and won his office in a red state against the incumbent. My dream candidate (fantasy) is Maryland Governor Wes Moore. Could you imagine this handsome Rhodes Scholar who received a basketball scholarship from Johns Hopkins (but ended up as a wide receiver instead) alongside newly-promoted 5’5” V.P. Mike Johnson? He is not, however, from a battleground state

[@danielleremp4328]

@@r8chlletters Among the names of women of color that have not yet reached 60 years of age, and that the Biden 2020 campaign vetted, were Illinois Senator (and Purple Heart recipient) Tammy Duckworth and Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance Bottoms. The last four years, I’m sure, has generated additional dynamic prospects. Among non-women-of-color that I see as equipped to step into the presidential shoes are North Carolina Governor Roy Cooper or Maryland Governor Wes Moore.

[@ssun190]

Obama needs to come back out of retirement and take charge of this rudderless ship.

[@mikewilliams6025]

Well, at least you have your king

[@cat-.-]

Obama massively dropped the ball with ACA, with Clintonian neoliberalism. Purly from a policy point of view he is worse than Biden. His image is good only because he’s charismatic and healthy.

[@irenecheca6575]

Are you guys crazy?

[@ropeburnsrussell]

I know this is a progressive podcast, but the bigotry is unbearable.

[@ApparentAstuteness]

what are you referring to?

[@chililon]

Really? So out of touch.

[@americanexpat8792]

I've come around to the opinion after being up in the air myself that the best path forward is Kamala Harris at the top with Gretchen Whitmer as VP. Yesterday, Whitmer said she was open to being the VP nominee if Harris was at the top. I would have preferred Whitmer at the top, but this achieves many important objectives. It's the least disruptive, Whitmer would likely bring along the 3 Rust belt states which is super, super important. Plus, Harris could probably run the country having seen some of the behind the scenes happening. It wouldn't upset the black population and would satisfy Biden since he really believes in her. Last, they would be able to use the campaign funds. BTW, this talk of risk is crazy. Biden is going to lose anyway, so the dumbest thing would be to do nothing.

[@EarlyRiser71]

Nobody is electing 2 women. NOBODY. Whether they would be best or not, they wouldn't have a chance.

[@americanexpat8792]

@@EarlyRiser71 In normal times that may be true, but here their alternative would be Trump. Independents, who decide elections, prefer somebody other than Trump.

[@monicabeaston4996]

​@EarlyRiser71 the right women, yes. Whitmer is fine. K Harris has her own problems regardless or race and gender.

[@direwolf6234]

in the world of environmental analysis .. the 'do nothing' alternative must be evaluated as well ...

[@jhl72]

Yeah this is why you're going to loose.

[@YouSnoozeYouNooze]

Harris should have worked on her public speaking while she was VP. She's awful at it

[@r8chlletters]

Harris should work on her everything as she is utterly distasteful

[@Dave-zl2ky]

The media giving Trump a pass as usual. Stop paying attention to political drivel and think for yourself.

[@direwolf6234]

we're so used to trump's lies it's no longer a 'story' .. if joe had these moments 3 years ago we'd be used to them .. as he took care of covid and passed some great bills .. 'oh it's just joe flubbing again' ..

[@granthuling3235]

*Drivel

[@beltsandedman]

Yes, so typical that the NYT and the rest of the corporate press have been giving Trump passes all of these past 8 years. I don't think you know the meaning of the word *drivel. Maybe stick to using more basic language next time.

[@user-dx3bg1qf7y]

Ross is crushing this. The ladies are having a really hard time seeing past their biases.

[@upyorkstate5541]

Day 1,239 of the Bidenpocalypse: Beware "The Walking Joe"!

[@birdking6389]

人都傻了，还选呢！哈哈哈

[@joseflemire4284]

What...Communist shill?!! People who have lost their sense of autonomy and are totally dependent