Have Rushdown Fighters Fallen Off? | Super Smash Bros. Ultimate

Rushdown fighters used to be the most popular class and playstyle in Smash Ultimate during its early days. Since then, the game has evolved and developed to favor more punish oriented playstyles, causing the archetype to suffer greatly in results and representation. We're gonna discuss what happened with Rushdown fighters, and if they're still viable or not.
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#SSBU #Characters #Rushdown

[@zedith6045]

I personally think that Joker is definitely a bait and punish character. I used to play him like a rush down, similar to how I play Mythra but I kept doing poorly. Once I made the realization that he's a bait and punish character and not a rush down aggressive character I started getting a lot better results

[@jaredbeavers4272]

You play joker and pyra mythra I don't want to hear your opinion

[@zedith6045]

@@jaredbeavers4272 I also play Kirby, Bowser, DK, Young Link and Shulk. I don't play competitively I just play whatever characters I like playing

[@jaredbeavers4272]

@@zedith6045 that's fine then but anyone who mains joke or pyra mythra I can't respect as a gonon main😂 hope you can understand

[@jaredbeavers4272]

Considering you play bowser and dk im sure you do

[@zedith6045]

@@jaredbeavers4272 yeah fair enough, I just like Xenoblade and Persona 5 so I like playing them. although I'll be honest I don't like playing them all the time because against friends it's just unfun overwhelming them with characters like them so instead I play the fun party characters like DK and Bowser lol

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Smash Ultimate has gradually morphed into a "first to initiate, first to lose" vibe so I'm not surprised

[@nydeity9100]

And that is trash

[@Nefaliss]

8:12 Unrelated to the topic but i find this image really funny. Looks like ZSS as a Cop is chassing criminals in Wario who is panicking, Wolf who wants to shoot her back, Joker who is running like he can never be caught and PT who is finding them an escape route.

[@TheDoomsdayzoner]

It's funny that Sonic was supposed originally to be a rushdown character. But Sakurai refuses to let go of Brawl moveset they made in the last minute.

[@winky3]

at 10:20 Cosmos actually recently tweeted he's trying to make the inkling work again, and he's dropping PaM.

[@JonnyJayKhan]

Joker seems more like a character that uses his mobility and tiny hurtbox to schmove around opponents and find openings, similar to Metaknight with his jumps and fast falls or Wario with his aerial drift Wario I would also say is more of a schmovement thread the needle character, and Wolf is the definition of bait and punish. PT is obviously a mix of archetypes but I would say only Squirtle is a rush down

[@CookieGal-]

Some of them have, but before watching the video I would say it's not them specifically, just the playstyle itself. Only characters who genuinely have to hold forward (who weren't the best of those characters to begin with) are falling away, like Falcon and Roy (where even Roy could be more of an issue with his players being uncomfortable with the forced change in playstyle).

[@N12015]

In conclussion: FP2 was a *massive mistake.* Rushdown was already being learned.

[@metaknightSSBU]

Unfortunately the meta has shifted more towards defensive playstyle, which is why zoners and whiff punish characters are more viable. This has also made it so that sets are more boring too watch imo

[@D_To_The_J]

The more I play the more I discovered that rushdown and aggression is at a larger disadvantage as if you wiff you are going to get punished hard and a lot of rush down characters don't have the best disadvantages.

[@kapn_ctk]

I play very rushdown style mii brawler. And I found the most difficult part is when I make a small mistake and then get bodied hard, or when my opponent adapts to all of my options and I feel I have no more entry points. I can be pretty rough.

[@benjaminratthe9904]

That thing about entry points hits hard as a Falcon main. You only have so many ways to approach and sometimes it feels like some characters' forward tilt just beat all of them lol

[@bobomber]

I think gameplay is overall more healthy when rushdown characters are strong because there is an inherent level of risk in taking aggressive actions and that risk should be rewarded. Second, I think the game is more entertaining to watch and has a higher overall skill ceiling when these characters are played.

[@NapalmDust]

Video Idea: Why LITERALLY NO ONE plays Mii Swordfighter. I would love to see their flaws explained in depth.

[@AZSprocket]

For real. You see more Gunners than you do Swordfighters, and that's saying something.

[@angusweir1708]

Is Captain Falcon the type of character that warrants a video with the title "Why No One Plays" or "Why Everyone Plays"? Or perhaps a different title altogether like "Why (Not) Everyone Plays Captain Falcon"? He seems very common at lower levels of play but not very common at all in higher levels.

[@koolersdomain3905]

Personally I feel like every rushdown character has had to transform into a bait and punish character. with how good out of shield options are in the high level meta it feels like a lot of characters one might consider "rushdown" moreso just camp at burst range and throw out stuff until someone comes into their protective bubble and gets clipped by it or whiffs a move nearby so they can punish. kazuya and steve 0-deaths I think also scare people into desperately not wanting to get clipped by a move, so they play them like this. This was lowkey a thing before with luigi and a few other advantage heavy characters but I think this fear really took off once they saw how broken these two characters combos are.

[@sebaschan-uwu]

Sheik, joker, diddy kong, zss and chrom are not rush down characters. Just because they are fast does not make them rush down. Rush down is an archetype based on playstyle. If you play any of these characters as if they were fox or pikachu you would lose against any half witted player. Their speed is not just to close distance but to set up their superior neutral and for zss to enable her evasive ability and whiff punishing. But for someone like falcon, his speed is mainly for closing distance because his neutral is pretty ass even with his high speed.

[@Nako3]

11:37, that roy didnt just go for a read he went for a whole book xD

[@sandycrash8868]

The problem with rush down is they have poor Edge guarding safe options. Joker with out arsen grenjia the pikas are the only true safe rush down off stage fighters everyone else has a much greater risk to reward where it’s better to just stay on stage even the ones I mention still prefer to stay on stage and spam back air

[@Nouser_237]

Not entirely sure if Joker should be considered a rush down

[@danielferrieri7434]

Video Idea: The History of 8 Player Smash

[@Newbmann]

Zero,Samsora,Kola,Esam,Leo,Spargo,zackary,Gluto.

[@sandycrash8868]

You mean why Casual smash is dead good idea for a video hint hint

[@Newbmann]

@@sandycrash8868 nah its not really dead just more so restricted to here me out events and parties and stuff. Almost like whats expected of a party game.

[@KanSanyara]

@@Newbmannyeah no in parties where people are over 7 years old they'll usually play 4 player smash and switch after a match

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

@@sandycrash8868 Casual Smash is dead because of For Glory/Elite Smash. Before, the one guy in a friend group who was better than everyone else could at least settle into casual society as a setpiece. Now, the average friend group has such a wide range of skill, that casual play among the group is basically impossible.

[@henrybitencourt]

Terry mythra roy and Fox is one of the few rushdown characters that adapt the New slower paced more bait and punish playstyle

[@gameboyn64]

I think a good way to tell you are playing a rush down character is if you are holding foward most of the match

[@syrupshrike9742]

I think part of whiff punishing being favored over rushdown is that they're two sides of the same coin, but rushdown is more committal. Where whiff punishing is punishing endlag, rushdown requires you to punish startup by using your faster frame data. It's essentially always easier to react to a move whiffing (startup, active frames, and endlag) rather than just the startup, where it's almost always a read. Lastly, dedicated rushdowns usually still have strong whiff punishing, but many whiff punishers can't rush down as well.

[@fartenthusiast-zl2qv]

yeah thats why rush down imo is way more interesting to watch it seems more like a gamble rather than running away and choosing safe options

[@kailesperance1922]

The reason why people say FP2 is ruining the game is because even though every fighter has a hard counter, when you’re being forced to use specific characters to counter a few, very OP ones, that’s a problem

[@billybill1270]

Wario is not a rushdown character, his ability to hold forward is limited and his kit is far more specialised to whiff-punishing.

[@Visual217]

I think the major reason is that most rushdown characters have a deceptively high skill floor and deceptively low skill ceiling. Watch any upper mid/high tier players and you'll see that they're much more focused on fishing for glancing blows to stun their opponent into a combo/kill attack. What makes a rushdown character so menacing is how safe yet precise these glancing blows are to throw out. You need to be smart about how you throw them out but these characters have such a slim window to be punished. A high level player is much smarter about when to start spamming attacks. As the meta progresses, everyone starts learning the optimal neutrals of these rushdown characters and are much better able to counter. High level rushdown players are more quickly realizing the limited toolsets of their mains once their opponent knows their playbook. Either through heavy punishers like Steve and Kazuya knowing a characters optimal neutral or through longer disjointed attacks like Aegis not giving rushdown characters room to breath while being unable to get in. The more prevalent parry meta makes this even more difficult for rushdown characters.

[@donkylefernandez4680]

Fox's bair vs Marcina's fair is a tale as old as time

[@mysticsquirtle5109]

Rush downs have become more difficult overall due to defensive options and invincibility became much more prominent. They have always been more of a glass canon (or have a glaring weakness), but now get exploited more by tools that majority of characters have. That being said there are 2 things that make a good rush down, that you mentioned, but didn’t go into much detail on 1: rush downs often have to use their tools to force options. A character like Roy, who can struggle offstage or at an awkward midrange excels at racking up damage, taking early stocks, pressuring shield, and having good and safe frame data. Swinging aimlessly no longer works as well, but precise timings can gain an early lead where now someone needs to approach you to exploit weaknesses. Terry is very similar in current practicality and execution 2: offence is defence. A lot of rush downs excel at pressuring and have great tools or movement or both to always make someone uncomfortable. I’ll examine Light like you did, the reason he does so well with Fox is because he rarely commits to a hard shield and doesn’t throw out options without purpose. You might say he’s mashing when he bairs Glutonny’s Leo’s or Sonix’s shield 5 times at ledge, but it’s how fox plays defence. Those bairs are all spaced where a burst option struggles and won’t amount to much if they even manage to hit. He’s trying to pressure a roll or jump, or condition into shield, saying “you can’t hit me, if you move you lose your stock”. On top of that he knows Fox falls insanely fast, and uses short and full hops, as well as fast falls and double jumps, to mix up his landings and stay untouchable What makes a good rush down currently is their ability to pressure defensively and explode offensively

[@dave9515]

Reason number one also explains the downfall well. This game has no whiff punishing so even hitting shields isn't enough to force options. The options need to really scare the player. If ultimate had robust movement for microspacing and positioning rushdowns would do a bit better but then balloon knockback needs to be removed, crossups come back and of course last but not least make hitbox interpolation better on the cast as a whole. If they did this then rushdowns wouldn't struggle as hard. ROA has a great gamestate and no archetype is favored over another imo.

[@mysticsquirtle5109]

@@dave9515 I love Rivals, completely agree. This game does have whiff punishing but a lot of good characters have stupid tools that can’t be whiff punished (Rob nair, Steve up tilt is literally + on shield, Minmin as a character). I think rushdowns should have strong safe on shield options that don’t require a prior commitment, but isn’t so absurd that it breaks them. Roy jab is a good example, it’s not entirely safe, but adds a huge threat and has good shield stun to make it rewarding at first, and it’s not safe due to how frame data in this game generally works (any aerial on ultimate frame data is assuming you land it as low as possible, whereas all grounded moves can’t be cancelled on the ground like aerials). Also regarding Roy jab and rivals, I love the idea of jabs being more useful. In rivals, you could cancel a jab into any tilt as long as you can do another hit of jab after (basically Terry jab with input moves, the last hit can’t cancel), and they don’t stun you when parried but still give the opponent invincibility. In smash 4 and previous smash in general, characters had more jab combos, Marth jab 1 up tilt in sm4sh, fox jab 1 up smash in melee, I think they could be designed as a better tool for rush downs as a whole.

[@Hikaru1468]

I just got into competing in smash ultimate after being a long time viewer and I main sheik, with a rushdown falco and cloud secondary, and I prioritize aggression, and as I've started to enter tournaments I have become very aware that movement both forwards and backwards become very important especially against matchups like diddy, where movement and bait and punish game becomes so important, Even if it is less fun than absolutely not letting the other player play the game, focusing on options like movement help me to still enjoy the intricacies of Smash and make me a better player.

[@brooksyang5834]

Looking at the patch notes it feels so weird to see cloud buffed cuz now he's the one dominating the meta

[@mohammadalhusaini810]

He DEFINITELY needed the buffs

[@manwithnoname4346]

Props for the ff14 music. Took me a second to recognize it

[@dazedd-fi4yx]

the only reason why rushdowns were ever "viable" was because ppl wanted to play this way. Not interacting is the best way to win since melee.

[@chistynk7490]

Can't wait for a video about the "choosing to lose" characters 🙏

[@ringss_]

Armadillo, Peanut, Kirbykid, etc etc

[@chistynk7490]

@@ringss_ *Fox/Mythra/Sheik/Joker/Pikachu/Young Link/Rob/Sonic

[@julienrogeau8362]

@@chistynk7490 this man spit facts

[@ringss_]

@@chistynk7490 OH YOU MEANT THAT, I thought you meant the low-tier allure I understand now, characters bound by human error

[@extonjonas6820]

@@chistynk7490 These characters are so varied, what would you even say in that video. "You are playing a good character so if you lose you are just worse than your opponent"

[@illford]

I feel this has already aged because Cosmos started playing Inkling again 💀

[@zate5355]

And will get no results

[@shizo66]

camping/zoning is just too strong in smash brothers. Its more balanced in other fighting games due to lack of available screen but smash is unique where the stage is tremendously bigger in all directions, playing a character that isnt lightning fast and doesnt have a fireball of some kind just feels bad, and its made worse when the other person does.

[@grimsdol4665]

I think Rushdown fell off because they're only good against slow opponents and almost none of em are Meta, and trying to rush down characters like zoners won't work when many if them have strong out of shield punishes forcing you to slow down

[@tomcampbell8934]

Samus having that up B out of shield is complete bullshit

[@ojutay8375]

​@@grimsdol4665not just up b. Pac-Man Nair is frame 6, Min Min up smash is frame 7. It's insane that they can box

[@Spyder-Marth]

​@@ojutay8375 exactly my thinking when Min Min was released. No zoner should be able to fight well up close AND at a distance. That's ridiculous. Samus mains are extremely abundant for a reason

[@Rollenstone]

I see you with that FF14 music.

[@sandycrash8868]

Joker is definitely a rush down but he’s a rush down like sonic. It’s not optimal to play him like that better to play bait and punish

[@Flare8295]

Chrom is a Swordie and Terry is a Footsie

[@SuperHalo-rn4rr]

Spectating wise, I suppose I'm in the minority or not being indifferent or favorited to watching specific character types. I just like watching Smash in its many forms. Fun I think is still pretty subjective too, but that's to joy of smash. Still nice video! The FFXIV music almost made me think I was running the game while watching this lol.

[@jugrajchauhan3810]

I will always play rushdowns even if they have fallen off cause they’re fun

[@dave9515]

Rushdowns fell off because the game didn't benefit them as much compared to zoners, bait and punish, turtlers, keep aways and other more defensive archetypes in reality. Make most moves safe in the game and you can't exactly punish mistakes now can you. Passive aggressive isn't agressive now is it and thats what spamming safe moves on a shield is. Rushdowns usually have significantly less reward and safety compared to other characters too. FP2 isn't what caused this. People figured out the gamestate is all. If rushdowns make a comeback it won't be from them rushing down but moreso from them taking more defensive playstyles and embodying a similar style to kazuya and bait and punish types. Also still waiting for people to start parrying more. It can be good in some situations and not only that but even if the opponent has a safe move and you parry as long as it aint samus or a projectile character that can punish parries you could use it as a tool to get in someone's head and even those with the proper timing you could use parries. Defense is just inherently stronger in ultimate and whiff punishing is significantly weaker to the point it does not exist which contributes to rushdowns struggling. Hitbox interpolation being more whack, hurtbox shifting being a bigger deal, lack of crossups, lack of large combos because of balloon knockback, lack of threatening grabs for a lot of the cast and its not hard to see why the rushdowns fell off. Ultimate is just a major game of cheese and advantage and if you don't have a monster neutral, monster advantage, or majorly cheesy gimmick your character is gonna struggle hard regardless how well they are designed. Cloud rose because of his monstrous neutral while his advantage leaves a lot to be desired while roy fell because his neutral isn't strong enough to carry his advantage when his advantage won't be having him TOD characters. Aegis fell off a while ago and the proof is in the results of everytime someone uses them and loses constantly which happens a lot now. Ultimate was never an aggressive game to begin with.

[@tallgeese88]

People just realized Smash Ultimate is a casual and spam-heavy "keepaway" battle game. I sat "keepaway" because its a better representation of the playstype than "zoner." "Zoner" is a term coward/keepaway players made up to feel better about their playstyle. I dont call Smash a fighting game because it doesnt really involve fisticuffs... its a battle game. You battle with your long range guns and pokes. Thank god I play Tekken and only bust this game out for parties. Its true face has finally been revealed. Guy who made the video is now coming around to realizing it. Imagine treating Smash as an actual legit fighting game.... these realizations are the inevitable result.

[@fr0stdr4ke95]

12:04 So... Sonix. Honestly I'd be cool with more people playing patient and aggressive as need be.

[@sailesh_sharma]

Cosmos going back to Inkling now

[@LavaCreeperPeople]

I haven't played this game in over a year

[@Creepo_J]

Incineroar is bad at approaching so he can only really punish people and wall them out which makes your prioritize positioning better and microspacing for a whiff punish The most aggressive spot for incineroar is high above in the air adjacent to someone on the ground

[@coolkid12515]

most diddy kong mentions in a vars video

[@Winter101Storm]

"The exception to all of this, is Light. Who's single handedly keeping Fox alive by being so ridiculously cracked at the game, that by sheer force of will he just makes it work." This made me LOSE IT

[@kaito2220]

Yeah the meta has shifted to way lamer playstyles and to characters nobody enjoys fighting. Here's to hoping smash 6 doesn't make the same mistakes if/when it comes

[@willhorton7624]

Always love your videos mate

[@drbiohazmat]

I know this is irrelevant but hearing FFXIV music over smash just reminds me of how much I've wanted a FFXIV fighter for years 😔

[@nwang03]

Anyone know what song is playing in the background?

[@ZERODE11]

In my opinion there are two ways to play sonic play like a Rush down or play campy I would also call Mii brawler a Rush down because of his combos

[@AZSprocket]

Mii Brawler can be played as both a rushdown and as a brawler, depending on your specials. Give him shotput and maybe feint jump, and he is a brawler, give him any other neutral B and down B and he is a rushdown.

[@CarbonMalite]

The design philosophy of this game is kind of worn on its sleeve. We have dedicated "grappler" characters like DK and Incineroar, yet you could argue characters like Samus/Steve/Rob/GnW have an infinitely better grab-game because of keep-away mixups. Ult lacks good zone-breaking tools on most of it's fighters, and the best ones are on characters like Sonic and Steve. It would be so much more fun if Falcon could just go through projectiles with Falcon Kick/R. Boost but instead he just clanks or gets hit and put into a billion frames of lag.

[@cardinmalone4974]

Why is Mr. Game & Watch consider as an "anti-rushdown" fighter? Can you explain this?

[@nicklassvendsen8299]

Game & Watch is one of characters that has the strongest oos options, that leads into combos. So rushdown characters ussually takes a heavy hit from Game & Watch.

[@AestheticRagdoll]

Had to do a double take take the FF14 music playing in the background

[@xxwallzxx4509]

Fox is still strong and sees high level play from Light. Terry is still strong and sees high level play from Riddles when he wants to. Captain Falcon is not a bad pick. The players themselves have been struggling.

[@xavierfredericks2688]

He is a lot less safe then people think because he can’t really turn and run away and his approach hitboxes are not big.

[@CoHzus]

smartboarddddd back at it again lets go man

[@SolarMoth]

slaaldad samus

[@billclintonsmagicbeefarm]

Very based of you for the FF14 bgm

[@donkylefernandez4680]

With this year's conclusion to GOML, I'd like to see an episode on SONIX, notably Sonix vs Tilde and Sonix vs MKLeo. His playstyle was incredibly rushdown heavy with the added benefit of Sonix being incredibly patient and Sonic having incredible disengage. Sonic also has a deceptively long range despite having mediocre boxing

[@donkylefernandez4680]

# NoMorals

[@KrypticX27]

isn’t Sonic a rush down? i play him like one

[@winky3]

not tryna horny-post but zss at 8:10 oh my goodness

[@AegisZentix]

Music pls it’s so good 😊

[@brooksyang5834]

The fact that sora is probably the worst fighters pass 2 character really says something

[@Squidwolf]

Only inkling. Also terry is not a rush down

[@MaggieBeaver]

Do why everyone plays Dr Mario

[@antonparas4782]

zero suit :(

[@substitutedoll5224]

ROB is a rushdown character

[@theguy6680]

Rob is everything and the best character

[@KrossTheManJ]

Your technically wrong. Rob is a rushdown brawler zoner swordfigher bait and puni-

[@MetaGamingDojo]

YAWN!!!

[@s_factor_sam]

This sounds like my kind of meta. It just makes me wish, even more, that Ultimate had better netcode... The terrible laggy netplay (even though I use an Ethernet adapter) really harms my ability to play my characters proficiently, so I fell off of Ultimate completely. And all the other platformer fighting games try to hard to emulate Melee or make rushdown the gameplay focus. Only Multiversus allowed non-rushdown to be viable, and that game shut down netplay until 2024... In most traditional fighting games, I struggle to succeed because my midrange spacing-focused defensive outboxer/fencer style is always designed by the devs to be weaker than close-range rushdown. Likely because of how short the average attention span is. Actually, growing up playing characters like Marth (my area's top players vocally respecting my Marth in Sm4sh) is part of why I've developed this playstyle. However, its never allowed to be strong in anything besides post-Melee Smash and rare traditional fighting games such as Samurai Shodown. I just can't catch a break...

[@nikkobird590]

Ultimate's garbage ahh online play is hilarously but sad at the same time

[@EthanGrace938]

Meanwhile I believe Robin could be s tier

[@nydeity9100]

The game rewards being lame now.

[@nikkobird590]

Word

[@pepper6592]

Roy still feels too 6 to me so idk rush down still rlly good against not Steve and kaz and rob

[@bby7630]

I think I'm kinda done with ultimate

[@Koooooooona]

They nerfed pichu.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

Ultimate's meta shifted to the more boring characters

[@willycheez7218]

Nope. They're almost all absolutely nutty

[@IamNster]

Tbh I think the pandemic had something to do with the rise of zoners. It was an online meta, so zoners naturally got a bit of a buff, but then people had all this time to lab and realize, "Oh, this is unironically kind of broken!" Edit: This seems unrelated to the video, but I'm tryna say that I don't think rushdown characters got worse. I just think that the zoners got better over time.

[@LavaCreeperPeople]

ok

[@dennisd.4726]

They took 'keep a 6 foot distance' too seriously

[@donkylefernandez4680]

From a risk/reward pov Zoners and Campers naturally have the highest advantage in safety. I wholeheartedly believe in Samusxx where games look more Street Fighter and less Smash Bros. That said, we need SonicFox to take a crack at smash. Swordies being the "chosen best" is a microchasm of this since they have the added benefit of range while still being somewhat fast to watch. # NoMorals

[@superheriber27]

​@@donkylefernandez4680Ew no

[@ringss_]

I think it's hilarious that Light is the leading player in a dying archetype, because he's notoriously bad at ANY other character, so it seems like he'd have a lot of difficulty switching to adapt

[@extonjonas6820]

I think light just does not play any other character, I think he is dedicated to fox and for good reason as his dedication has made him really good at tackling even the worst matchups. With that being said, if he wanted to play another character, I am sure he could

[@ringss_]

@@extonjonas6820 He def could pick up another character, but when he plays smashdown with Marss or Cosmos or something, he gets totally cooked

[@TheFullPackage]

@@ringss_ Being bad at smashdown in a casual setting doesn't necessarily represent how good he would be playing other characters/archetypes if he really wanted to

[@ahmadkazan5473]

The thing is that every character designed to be rush down has the tools to be better at bait and punish character since fast movment and safe hitboxes are the best way to force panic and win interactions,unless your shiek and you have to constantly be in your opponent's face to get back a percent lead every rushdown designed character is better at being a bait and punish character.

[@olbluelips]

I think a big contributor to this is not being able to shield out of dash. In earlier games every character had access to this insane defensive option. Now you have to commit to dashing, which makes closing space much harder than earlier games. Without this defensive option, rushdowns have very little to protect themselves from ults slew of confirms and high-damage moves

[@AnenLaylle7023]

Uh you can shield out of dash bro. Google dash shielding.

[@cannibalfish2429]

You CAN shield out of dash

[@olbluelips]

@@cannibalfish2429 not immediately. You’re still forced to dash for a certain number of frames (char dependant), so the faster your dash is, the more committal it is as well

[@Trevor-kc6zv]

Rush down characters are easily the best to watch. The switch to characters who excel against rush down is gonna hurt the watchability of Smash long term. It’s sad to see this laid out and sucks that Smash is moving away from having fun with characters to camping and waiting

[@banditimaclubyou8388]

Imo, if your character can be generalized as a rush down, then by default they are also able to bait and punish. Vice versa might not hold the same results, though.

[@Huckle777]

Yes and this is why I kinda hate smash ultimate lately. The meta rewards camping and playing slow/cheesy as opposed to being more combo based like I really wish it was... The meta has made the game so boring and lame and Im just waiting for Rivals 2 at this point.

[@dave9515]

How does someone tell him? 😟

[@AZSprocket]

The archetypical rushdown characters are Fox and Captain Falcon. Get in fast, do a lot of damage, get out fast, and rely almost completely on fast movement and fast frame data to do that. One of their other trademark features is that they are glass cannons: they have among the worst disadvantage states in the game, and are often very easy to KO or edge guard. The difference between brawlers and rushdowns is thay brawlers have a much better disadvantage state, and arent super easy to kill in comparison. Brawlers also tend to have a bit slower frame data.

[@sauce8277]

Ah yes, Falcon. The glass cannon.

[@redfish6549]

@@sauce8277 my dude get combo to oblivion. And if you have a lingering move his recovery is kinda mid.

[@AZSprocket]

​@@sauce8277maybe glass cannon is the wrong term for Falcon, but it definitely applies to Fox. A better expression then is a character that has limited recovery options (Falcon is a fairly predictable character in terms of recovery) and limited combo breaks/escape options (once a character is in a combo, it's harder to escape). In other words, all offense, no defensive options.

[@TheFullPackage]

​@@AZSprocketadding on to what you said, what most people don't know about Falcon is that he also has the most committal dash in the game, with it having the equal 2nd most frames on top of how much distance it covers. Not to mention his turnaround, which is another example of his very lacking defence. Your defence becomes so much worse when both dashing and turning around leave you much more vulnerable relative to the cast.

[@OnijJokuma]

I should go back to Fox. He is just the best character in this game.

[@tomcampbell8934]

I came from melee and he’s the only character I enjoy playing. I hate waiting so fucking long falling in the air just to hit the ground again. I can’t stand how floaty everyone is

[@OnijJokuma]

@@tomcampbell8934 I can see that. Fast falling is such a great set of movement.

[@RealBroccoliHour]

Fox’s recovery and weight is way to exploitable to outright be the best character in the game

[@OnijJokuma]

@@RealBroccoliHour Fox encourages the player to make fewer mistakes. Fox, in the right hands, is meant to control the whole situation with speed and precision. Fox just demands a lot, but it's worth it once you gain control and understanding.

[@RaheemRollair]

Damn, I didn't think that Rushdowns were falling off. I thought that they were still broken and still taking games, sets and tourneys. But you convinced me completely otherwise, especially with the dodging mention (But that still happens online anyways with the Bad netcode). The best way to understand the process of the game itself is by watching the pros. Everybody knows the Unga Bunga tactics and are baiting them perfectly. No wonder the Rushdown fighters were dropped by their mains.

[@sandycrash8868]

Still waiting for why no one plays causal smash / CAUSAL SMAHS IS DESD

[@squirrelwithabanana]

You can’t say that Ned held on to ranking better than gluto did 😭 Gluto is still top 10, Ned is not top 150

[@ToadetteTails6969]

My personal verdict on rushdown brawlers: I think rushdown-ers are mostly decent. However, I think that smaller rushdown-ers (E.g: Pikachu and Pichu) do better than the most due to their size (especially Pika). Smaller size = less of a chance of getting hit. Pretty simple, right? I suppose that by now, with the passing of time, people have learn't how to properly deal with them. It's crazy that Light's still been keeping Fox alive. Dude deserves respect.

[@meatloaf7939]

Love the channel but youve gotta upgrade your mic or change your sound mixing it is very hard to hear you

[@Ban-zx9se]

I think another important note is that almost every game, especially platform fighters like smash, gradually shifts towards more patient play as the meta develops. Even Melee is noticeably more meticulous given many top players heavy emphasis on positioning, which goes to show defensive options won't matter as much as the ability to maintain an advantage when everyone can potentially 0td off of any stray interaction. (Which is why I believe Sonic has seen a significant rise) As far as Light's antithetical playstyle gets him, eventually people will grind out these sorts of uncomfortable interactions and develop such an acute game sense that these strategies will inherently become less effective.

[@Blargleflakes]

Dhalsim has had hurtboxes on his limbs since SNES…and someone still thought disjoints on min min was a good idea :(

[@grimsdol4665]

that's smash hros for someone says "wouldn't it be cool if" and no one asked "hey is that fun or balanced"

[@PaperGraysterYT]

because min min is dlc so it’s totally excusable

[@grimsdol4665]

@@PaperGraysterYT Ness's Yo yo would like to have a word with you

[@PaperGraysterYT]

@@grimsdol4665oh crap you’re right but if anything at least that doesn’t cover 60% of the stage

[@grimsdol4665]

@@PaperGraysterYT only 60% of the ledge lol

[@olbluelips]

Yoshi’s doing ok, but he’s arguably a trapper. I think he’s a rushdown as well as a trapper tbh

[@gliderman8934]

the fire nation joke made me laugh

[@lastnamefirstname8655]

rushdowns still work, but the changing meta does mean different playstyles will be needed for rushdowns to perform again.

[@Buzterer]

Since the meta is evolving organically, its just a matter of tie before rushdown becomes meta again

[@DaminRSW]

homie can't be putting the ffxiv music on his vids jamming instead of listening...........

[@peter42466]

I still feel that fighter pass 2 ruined the game as a spectator buffer ruined it as a player for me but fighter pass 2 made the game so dull as a spectator and also the people just made adaptations would make rushdowns useless in melee I feel it was the fact that every character can wall you out now which made it worse

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Agree. Pythra, Kazuya, and Steve basically redefined the game and, imo, made it worse. It's great if you like them as characters, but they killed my interest in Smash as anything more than a party game. Which, admittedly, Steve is very fun in that context.

[@peter42466]

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 custom stages with steve is so fun

[@bullettime1116]

​@@aprinnyonbreak1290that was Nintendo intention regardless, they have a hard on to remind you guys that they despise competitive smash

[@pamoon_]

I think there is a distinction with playing rushdown properly (bobbing and weaving) and unga bunga.