Haydn: symphony no. 39 ("tempesta di mare") in G minor, Pinnock, The English Concert

[@SuperMelvyn]

Spirited and detailed performance of (arguably) the first Haydn symphony to go beyond the emotional world of the Divertimento. Comparisons with Mozart 25 are inevitable but on the whole the dfferences are greater than the similarities. In brief, Mozart enters the emotional world of G Minor and begins to find a poetry that will culminate in Symphony 40. Haydn is far more concerned with G Minor as a foil to B flat - like most of his work it is a comedy in which dark exists only to lead to light - something which culminates not only in the London Symphonies but in Beethoven's Fifth. We can also note that while Mozart is more instinctively melodic, Haydn is concerned with epigrammatic exploitation of minimal ideas. There is no need to talk of "winners" and "losers" when looking at Haydn/Mozrt, Bach/Handel, Beethoven/Schubert or even Shostakovich/Britten.

[@FRAGIORGIO1]

Melvyn Elphee ---- Well written. How to compare Geniuses? !!! Marvelous.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Melvyn Elphee Some interesting and thoughtful points; however, to suggest that this symphony is ‘arguably’ the first Haydn symphony to go beyond the emotional world of the divertimento’ is wrong. You appear to be applying a very Mozartian definition of emotion to the only composer of the age to approach Mozart in stature; emotion in Haydn is different - it is Haydnesque not Mozartian, they are different adjectives because they mean different things. Generally speaking, you will be as disappointed with the music of Haydn if you seek Mozartian qualities, as you will with the music of Mozart if you seek Haydnesque qualities. Almost all Haydn’s early symphonies rise so far above the world of the divertimento as to be unrecognisable; it is true that occasional movements are written in a deliberately divertimento or serenade like, light, entertainment style - but not all - and this was common for all composers of the time. Haydn’s audience at Eszterhaza was an educated, cultivated and musical one which demanded something deeper than Divertimenti, thus Haydn provided a range of works that were of an intellectual and emotional level well beyond a divertimento: Symphonies 18, 5, 11, 21 and 22 are all of the ‘sonata da chiesa’ (church sonata) type; Symphonies 3, 13, 16, 40, and 70 all contain significant amounts of complex contrapuntal writing as do many others - four of these symphonies have fugues as finales (3, 13, 40, and 70); 3 has a canonic minuet, and 16 opens with a stretch of double counterpoint in what is in effect a monothematic movement; Symphony 30 uses a Gregorian Easter chant woven into its fabric; Symphony 22 opens with a sort of chorale prelude; Et cetera. All these examples, and many more, are not of the emotional world of the divertimento, they are of the emotional world of Haydn who remains, one of the least understood of the greatest composers. There is more ‘emotion’ in Haydn’s symphonies before 1767, ie before Symphony 39, than perhaps your original comment implied, but rather like learning a foreign language, you need to learn Haydn properly before you can understand what he is saying, otherwise, you end up with little more than a superfluous and largely misunderstood message.

[@bruceanderson5538]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 wow

[@clavichord]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 Talking of Haydn's early and mid period symphonies, I note some historically informed performers opt for harpsichord continuo, like Pinnock's recording here... while others omit it... same with notably some of mozart's keyboard and flute concertos, as well as symphonies. There doesn't seem to be agreememt about appropriateness in using harpsichord continuo with orchestral work from this period. I know the use of harpsichord was disappearing in Mozart and Haydn's time, in favour of fortepiano, although in printed scores of the time the two instruments often are interchangeable. Certainly Haydn's Creation Oratorio and Mozart's Le Nozze di Figaro, would sound weird in my ears without harpsichord accompaniment in recetatives... and even as late as Beethoven's Opus 2 keyboard sonatas, it was published as being for either fortepiano or harpsichord! Maybe there is no definative answer as to when harpsichord continuo practice went out of fashion and when finally keyboard writing stopped being fortepiano/harpsichord interchangeable?

[@clavichord]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 I can find mention of harpsichord continuo in the score of Haydn's symphony no 6 "Le Matin", where it is "ad libitum". I can find frequent mention of it upto around the early 1770s amongst Haydns symphonies. Amongst Mozart's symphonies it is specifically mentioned as late as his 15th symphony written in 1771 and sporadically in earlier symphonies. I guess the correct approach with haydn, is that in his earlier to mid symphonies, harpsichord continuo was regarded as either optional or still relatively normal practice.

[@gerardbegni2806]

A very evocative symphony.very well conducted by Pinnock.

[@jauscielingjauquae3539]

Nicely played BRAVO BRAVO

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

This particular recording which is taken from Pinnock’s very fine set of nineteen ‘sturm und drang’ symphonies with The English Concert, gives listeners the opportunity to compare a performance using a harpsichord continuo with other fine period performances by Antonini or Hogwood for example who dispense with the harpsichord. Whilst I enjoy the performances very much, I do find the orchestra has a slightly under-powered bass in the string section; there are a maximum of 8 first and 6 second violins; but only 2 violas, 2 ‘cellos, and 1 violone (double bass); some symphonies though appear to reduce the number of violins to 5, 4. It is not clear whether there is one or two bassoons playing col basso, plus of course there is the harpsichord (and of course, the standard two oboes and two horns). As a comparison to hear exactly what I mean about the bass, in his complete Mozart symphonies, his performance of the only comparable work in this style, the g minor Symphony 25 (K183), Pinnock uses a much better balanced 6, 6, 4, 3, 2, plus harpsichord: the Haydn is 8, 6, (or 5, 4) 2, 2, 1, plus harpsichord. My view is that the better balanced orchestra with a stronger bass used by both orchestras in Antonini’s current Haydn 2032 project allows for greater contrast between the striking and powerful sturm und drang features of these symphonies with the more softer, delicate, and more lyrical passages, something which I think is inherent in Haydn’s writing. Antonini I think better allows us to share in the striking impact these works would have had at the time - something which sometimes eludes me with Hogwood. That said, I would not be without these fine Pinnock interpretations which remain some of my preferred versions with the harpsichord continuo. There are of course, many other fine recordings of these works, and like most music, we really need to hear several different performances of each symphony as each approach will reveal different treasures within what are, extremely fine works. Subsequent note: it appears that Pinnock reduced the strings in this symphony to 5, 4, 2, 2, 1. Whilst being a better balance, it does not however alter my basic point about the set in which I think the bass slightly underpowered. Thanks to Yusuf Yalcin for supplying details of the correct string forces for this symphony in the comments below.

[@YusufYalcin83]

But Pinnock used string section as 5, 4, 2, 2, 1 in this symphony. The information is given in booklet which players performed which symphonies. 8 first and 6 second violins played through the album but not in every symphony.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Yusuf Yalcin That is very curious; the booklet in my Archiv Produktion cd box categorically does *not* give the number of strings playing in each symphony. It lists all the players of The English Concert by name and instrument - hence the 8 6 2 2 1 - and specifically for this symphony: ‘Scoring: Oboe I & II, Horn I - IV, Strings (Continuo: Bassoon, Harpsichord). Is your booklet different to mine - recording 1989, notes 1991?

[@YusufYalcin83]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 I have 1989 release, Vol. 1 of 6. And you can see more details in the Credits section in this web-site; www.discogs.com/Joseph-Haydn-The-English-Concert-Trevor-Pinnock-The-Sturm-Drang-Symphonies-Volume-1-Fire/release/1326147

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Yusuf Yalcin Thank you for taking the trouble to post this; I am very grateful.

[@markimarki379]

@@elaineblackhurst1509 The recordings were taken in 1988 and 1989. Symphonies 26,35, 38, 39, 49, 58 59 in 1988, others in 1989. In the 1988 recordings the string section is 4/4/2/2/1. I have the original version on six separate cd released in 1989 and 1990 with very modern and colorful covers and detailled informations

[@alexeyizmirliev64]

E musica di primissimo livello!

[@joyousmonkey6085]

The first movement reminds me of his 49th. Drat and double drat! Now I'm going to have to buy the Sturm und Drang by Pinnock!

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Joyous Monkey Pinnock and The English Concert is a very fine set and a good investment that will last a lifetime. Two points to bear in mind: Firstly, Pinnock adds a discrete harpsichord to the continuo so this enables you to compare the works both with harpsichord - as here, and without harpsichord - for example Antonini in his Haydn 2032 project or Hogwood. It also allows comparison with Roy Goodman’s recordings with The Hanover Band which use a much more extravagant, and to my ears, sometimes intrusive harpsichord continuo. Secondly, my only slight concern with the Pinnock set is the balance of the string section of the orchestra: 8 first and 6 second violins, with just 2 violas, 2 cellos and 1 violone (double bass), with a bassoon col basso (some of the symphonies in this set are 5 4 2 2 1 in the strings); I think the bass is slightly under-powered compared to Antonini for example, and indeed most other recordings. Interestingly, Pinnock’s complete Mozart symphonies has a much better balance, for example Mozart’s only symphony in this style, No 25 (K183) is 6/6/4/3/2 plus harpsichord, compared to the 8/6/2/2/1 or 5/4/2/2/1 plus harpsichord in the Haydn symphonies. In summary, these are highly recommendable performances of symphonies that include all the greatest works written in the ‘sturm und drang’ style.

[@marcosfernandes7712]

Adoro esta sinfonia de HAYDN....

[@dann1681]

yes there are similarities... like Shubert d 485 - 3rd mvt :-)

[@ASDF-ff9ls]

좋은음악, 좋은그림 감사합니다

[@paulefstathiou1819]

Haydn : Excellent !

[@tatianagelfeld]

Bravo Pinnock

[@stefanstamenic3640]

J.C. Bach Symphony No.6 in G minor, Op.6 Johann Christian Bach - Symphony in E-flat major for two orchestras, Op.18, No.1 Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach - Simfonia in F Major, Wq 175 C.P.E. Bach / Symphony in E minor, Wq. 178 J.C.F.Bach Sinfonia in D minor WFV I:3 The four musically-talented-in-their-own-right sons of J.S. Bach (Wilhelm Friedman, Karl Philip Emmanuel, Johann Christoph Fredrick and Johann Christian) have been neglected way too long and it is absolutely time that all of their surviving works be recorded on both vinyl records and CD's to be enjoyed for years to come. Please note that their music had a very profound influence on Mozart, the Haydn brothers and nearly all of their contemporaries.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Stefan Stamenic You have listed four very fine and interesting works and are probably right that they are neglected. Re: ‘...profound influence’. JC on Mozart - agreed; on Haydn it was virtually nil and on composers outside England, it was also quite limited. CPE on Haydn probably from about 1766 when the Versuch first appeared in Vienna - agreed; on Mozart it was virtually nil, though his manual on keyboard playing (the Versuch), was influential all over Europe. JCF’s influence was less important; he was largely isolated at the Buckeburg court and if anything, his later music - for example the late B flat symphony - shows that he was certainly aware of the symphonies of Haydn, and possibly Mozart too ie the influence worked the other way. You are absolutely right that we need more of their works published and recorded, preferably by the best authentic/original instrument orchestras - there is some very fine music to be found amongst JS’s progeny.

[@XavFranz]

Excellent! What about fragment in final from 15:55?) It is especial, True?

[@musicfirst5020]

Love this version, more meaty than Hogwood. The Solomon's is good as well.

[@bchristian85]

I've heard a folk song to this melody, but can't think of which one it is.

[@phurisottatipreedawong8584]

Who painted that art work? I love how the painter used colors.

[@Muzikay]

Claude-Joseph Vernet, _A Storm on a Mediterranean Coast_ (1767).

[@TunaUzun-j3p]

ilber ortaylıdan geldik

[@busratekin1476]

Aradığım yorum :))

[@halilacar2426]

Who did come here after reading 'Bir Ömür Nasıl Yaşanır?/ How is a life lived(?)?' written by İlber Ortaylı?

[@adrianagonzalez5475]

Excelente la orquestación , magnifica interpretación

[@cesarpedroso2952]

Whose painting is it?

[@Muzikay]

It's Claude-Joseph Vernet's _A Storm on a Mediterranean Coast_ (1767).

[@cesarpedroso2952]

Obrigado (Thanks).

[@Gustavo_Ramires]

@@cesarpedroso2952 brasileiros são inconfundíveis. KKKKKKKK

[@philippeyared2050]

Great music and misuc making but I find the continuo a bit distracting

[@warrencohen8246]

agree, the continuo is not necessary. Ifind it pedantic in virtually all the Haydn Symphonies

[@MaxwellKaye]

Maybe you should try Hogwood's recording. It has no harpsichord, so it might be better for you.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

Maxwell Kaye …and more recently, the Antonini recording as part of the Haydn 2032 project, a series which for me is setting new standards in this repertoire.

[@edge6441]

4 ppl are deaf and soulless

[@alex9920ro]

they must be Justin Bieber fans

[@pmarq32]

@@alex9920ro I disagree! Bieber was a fine composer ;-)

[@alex9920ro]

@@pmarq32 in what paralel reality?

[@cgomes1426]

supposedly this piece influenced the 17-year-old Mozart's composition of his symphony no. 25. Mozart's is much better, in my opinion.

[@shnimmuc]

+chris gomes I completely disagree,the Haydn is ground breaking. It was was written years before the Mozart,

[@edge6441]

You cant compare such holy beasts of composers like this each is a category of its own imo at least.

[@elaineblackhurst1509]

chris gomes There is a big difference between opinion and fact; like food, if you prefer one thing to another, that’s cool; but going on to say that Italian is ‘better’ than French, or Indian better than Chinese really is a bit silly - ditto Haydn 39 and Mozart 25. By the way, there’s no ‘…supposedly’ about it; I don’t use the word ‘influence’ which is as absurdly over-used in English as it is mis-used, but Mozart clearly knew Haydn 39 and it is the direct *model* for Mozart 25 as shown by the pairs of horns in G and B flat for example, and a number of pretty standard sturm und drang characteristics. In that trip to Vienna in 1773, besides Haydn 39, it is reasonable to speculate that he also heard - or saw the scores - of Vanhal g1, and JC Bach Opus 6 No 6; all the symphonies mentioned in this paragraph are in g minor.

[@alexeyizmirliev64]

Sei un idiota Chris.

[@gregking4142]

I find listening to them much more interesting and rewarding than ranking them.

[@AlexanderVerney-Elliott-ep7dw]

Far too fast and so mechanical but politically correct....hear how Kurt Sanderling conducts the 39th; so much more grace, elegance, finesse.

[@Cristobal-f4z9q]

Whos painting its on the front?