HAZARD 5+8 IS HARD, AND THATS GOOD | DEEP ROCK GALACTIC

[@Razzusamadesu]

People really be complaining about something that is optional and modular.... The whole point is that you can tune it the way you want it. People should really keep their egos in check sometimes.

[@marcuso7350]

Yeah, this is something you see accross all CoOp PVE games nowdays where players feel entitled to clear the max difficulty available consistently wihout breaking a sweat, mostly for their egos and wanting to brag online about it.

[@Crosby765]

@@marcuso7350This kinda also applies to these who already have around 1k hours and just cant adapt to it.(Myself included). The faster enemy speed just fries my muscle memory when it comes to hitting headshots but it’s manageable.The vulnerability however should be nerfed cuz getting 1 shot is simply not worth the reward.The other 2 modifiers are not even noticeable with certain builds.

[@reedworsham5643]

player vulnerability making RJ250 always do self damage through shield hurts both literally and psychologically. also, the best perk in the game, thorns, cant oneshot swarmers on max toughness, so the game is unplayable. on a more serious note though, as someone who plays mostly haz 5 public lobby missions, i cant really see myself ever being comfortable hosting a public haz5+8, which is unfortunate.

[@starblissed]

Oh shit, is that why I was randomly exploding myself the other night? I hope GSG fixes that, otherwise RJ250 becomes pretty trash.

[@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629]

this just goes to show why the player vulnerability setting is dumb high in damage and why some breakpoints should not be changed at all. Yeah its harder but messes with the game too much. simple task to benchmark those harder difficults, use middle of the pack overclocks. Some are busted shit that make the game way easier. You cant go and say modded 6x2 is easy bc some dude did it with neurotoxin payload for example. build diversity goes to shit with those 2 modifiers, l will never turn then on or join a game with then.

[@thiccum2668]

@@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629 then dont play on it. did you really expect it to be the same as hazard 5? i mean, what did you expect to change? just dont get hit bruh, player vulnerability is by far the easiest of the modifiers because there is such an easy way around it. just dont get hit.

[@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629]

@@thiccum2668 l was expecting the game to become harder, not destroy build diversity... Can you read? L was literally responding to the RJ250 complaint that now you receive self damage with the modifier on by the OP comment.

[@thiccum2668]

@@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629 it doesnt destroy build diversity, you’re just not good enough at the game to make the builds work. “Get good” isn’t just a dismissive meme, you know?

[@RazorPhoenix7]

40:25 guy clearly has better aim than you bro, he downed that driller in just one shot

[@ojb_]

Hi - I agree with most of the statements y'all made throughout the video, and enjoy the longer podcast uploads! I am a weirdo solo modded player myself / have a lot of experience with h5+2/2/2/2's across many loadouts on all classes, so I'll just touch on a few things that I think are important that didn't get as much coverage: --- * Build diversity (or lack thereof) The thing that annoys me the most from the perspective of (true) solo is how much of this difficulty is won or lost at the space rig, regardless of player skill or experience or anything else. Bad loadouts are shut down EXTREMELY hard by h5a, while the strongest things are made even stronger. I think this is the source of some of the disconnect you hear from modded players about it being "easier than 6x2". Because if you take strong things like coilgun or hurricane or pheromones or breach cutter or NTP or grapple or whatever else: you're probably not going to struggle if you were already competent at using those tools to the fullest. If you're a weirdo like me who likes taking a wide variety of abject trash and trying to force it to work, you're gonna have a bad time. Loadouts that don't have a strong element of crowd control to shut down the scary-grunts-that-don't-die-to-peashooters makes h5a about 1000x more difficult than 6x2 in the context of solo. h5a does the thing where it really amplifies the game's imbalance of overclocks and makes things-that-were-already-subpar even subpar-erer. I'm currently of the opinion that h5a makes bad loadouts worse and good loadouts better, and what constitutes "difficulty" is entirely reliant on what tools you give yourself to succeed. So speaking about h5a without the context of its stricter meta is a mistake IMO, because there's a lot of variance in how it feels to play far removed from individual player ability. And that variance is easily a source of miscommunication between players talking about their experiences / trying to 'balance' it! --- * Impact of mistakes I've played a lot of challenge runs in my time so I'm no stranger to "walking in expecting to lose". I've lost more runs than the average deep rock player has ever even attempted (this is not hyperbole). h5a offers new challenge highs to pursue for the sake of pride and accomplishment or ego or whatever, but chasing these new challenges hasn't excited me the same way in the past. This could be a me issue, but what typically happens in h5a is that I'll play extremely well for a long time - hit some nutty shots, move like karl, dodge everything perfectly, hit that crazy dash into sideways mantle to conserve momentum into a ledge grab to stop fall damage, etc. - and then make one teensy tiny mistake and lose the run because of it. Like, "oops I screwed up a single mantle trying to scale this 0.5 meter hill not even during a swarm" and then it's over with zero chance of recovery. I can only speak for myself, but the fact that I can play better than I've ever played for 99% of the time and make a single, tiny, pathetic mistake and lose because of it, is really, really frustrating. This is difficulty in the sense of "you need to no-hit flawless for 20minutes; good luck" and not "you don't need perfection the full time, but good play is still rewarded and mistakes are punished fairly to the level of the mistake". It's that level of "punishment fits the crime" that gets lost with full 2/2/2/2. In haz5 or 6x2 or Lx2 or ND or whatever common modded difficulty you want to compare, "failing to scale a 0.5m cliff because DRG physics sometimes make things unexpectedly difficult" is a slight inconvenience compared to "I pushed too hard into an uncleared room and ate a spitballer shot I shouldn't have". But in the h5a world, these are effectively the same crime with the same punishment: death. --- These two things have a noticeable impact on my solo runs and are a consequence of running the full set of modifiers. Like you guys, I don't really think this is a problem, and don't think GSG needs to panic and change things too early. Because like you hammered in several times - if you don't like it, no one is forcing you to buy in. You can just... not tick the modifiers. I will say it's mildly disappointing that h5a is a terrible experience for how I usually play and as such I'll just go back to community modded because it's more fun, but I am ABSOLUTELY NOT the target audience for h5a. Things change in full teams and balancing around an idiot true solo dingus like me is just silly. I look forward to future generations of dinguses trying to advance h5a play, but I'll mostly just watch from the sidelines I think. And that's okay :)

[@Iphroget]

Yeah this echos a lot of what I hear from the modded drg community as well. The player vulnerability will punish you harshly for tiny mistakes, but the slow pacing between wave spawns means you are just chilling a lot of the time.

[@nomiset2160]

agreed

[@considerthehumbleworm]

oh hey wasn’t expecting to see you here. Happy that I am tho i wanted to hear your take

[@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629]

those 2 problematic modifiers need changes. Overtime people will complain about balance in disproportional effective overclocks are relating to hazard5 max, and how annoying those modifiers are. In the grand scheme of things for casually playing players dont go beyond hazard 4, so most of the player base are not going to interact with it.

[@Cascade7155]

The cool funny drg essay person! Glad you're here!

[@jayr00d11]

Now that the full conversation has been posted here are the thoughts of a fairly quite player who has been playing religiously since Update 32. In the past I tried, and bounced off modded difficulties for several reasons. Some of which are the same as Axis, but my main one was that I am THE DRG player in my friend group. So whenever I play with friends, I will always play at the difficulty they want to (which tends to be Haz 4, with the occasional Haz 5) Because of that, going to the modded difficulties was just a hassle, when I could just play Haz 5 instead. So now with that context....Haz 5+ I love it and it is one of the best additions to Season 5, the haters can stay mad I no lifed the experimental, won several Haz5+8, and with it, learned my favorite way to play is Haz 5 + 2 enemies. It allows me to get good mileage out of my AOE builds, while also still standing a chance if I bring more single target builds. I have also seen a lot of the commentary coming from the modded difficulty players about either Haz 5 + 8 being either too hard or too easy. For the people who say it is too easy.....STFU and go play your own game. You clearly either made or found a version you enjoy. Just treat it as Haz 5 and ignore it as well For the people who say it is too hard (who play modded difficulties)....MY BROTHER IN CHRIST YOU PICKED THE DIFFICULTY. If you are going to select an option to make enemies hit harder....and then complain that the enemies hit harder, I'm going to call you stupid. Haz 5+ allows veteran (vanilla) players to mess with the difficulty in a way that keeps us just above the auto pilot state to keep the game interesting, while at the same time giving newer players something to aspire to that is even higher than before. I do agree with Milligan that some of the actual options could have been better. I like the idea of combining speed and damage, while giving the option for more varied enemies As for the rest of the season, I think it is all fantastic content and I am super happy with it all. Especially when looking at it compared to previous seasons, and I can see myself putting another 1k hours into the game. Overall, I really enjoy the podcasts you do and your content in general. But I have to give this video a 0/10 for not showing a picture of your cat when he jumped on your desk R&S from this old grey dwarf, and back to the mines I go

[@anobesediabeticpotatonamed3115]

Thank you for taking some time from the mines to give us your wonderful takes. R and S down there :)

[@bulldozer8950]

Ya I agree with you. Also more enemiesx2 for the win for real, it’s enough that it feels almost overwhelming which I feel like haz 5 can sort of not be once you play a decent bit especially without warnings.

[@M1911pap]

Haz5 +2 enemies is just 👨‍🍳😘🤌🏼

[@babyvee7615]

I highly appreciate this sort of video/discussion about this. understanding fundamentally what makes this a difficult challenge and the sorts of things that haven't yet had time to be accounted for is very important when making note of the balancing surrounding modular difficulty tweaking like this, and i love your takes on it, even if im out of my depth because i havent gotten around to doing the beyond lethal assignment or playing haz5+ at all, but understanding that not enough time has passed to make level headed judgments on the piece is the crux of the topic. well done!

[@Peppy10003]

Idk if its a good concern but one worry i have is how the option of a higher diff would raise the bar for everyone else, while 5 was originally the hardest, it made a nice indicator for builds to know what you can do but now that there's a higher difficulty, guides with builds would then have to ensure that it's good in +8 otherwise people would complain that it wasn't +8 compatible. Which sucks since it would make it hard to recommend more fun builds such as face melter.

[@Kunnoc]

If you don't want to worry about if builds will work or not in 5/8 just turn to 5/6 you get to keep the thrill without feeling like your weapons are nerf guns. The tough enemies are ruining some of the weapons break points and personally I think it's the least fun modifier out of all 4 of them I'd rather go 6on other modifier than go a single tough enemy modifer.

[@Kunnoc]

If I could make a change to make it fun I would revert the increase health of enemies and buff the bugs armor effectiveness in blocking damage but the armor health is the same. This will incentivise players to aim for weakpoints more and armor break a good choice but not required.

[@FrazzleFlib]

@@Kunnoc this is better, i like this

[@Kunnoc]

@@FrazzleFlib It's kinda better but also has its balance problems. ie. Drillers dominating the 2222 meta since most of Drillers arsenal ignore armor.

[@Exarvi]

5+8 with elite threat slashers cruising at scout speed is just cruel, you should definitely give it a try.

[@NP7_16]

That enemy health talk from Mill really opened my eyes. Overall extremely good rant video.

[@sweetbabyjeb6950]

Player vulnerability and enemy tankiness are kinda misses for me, but as a haz 5 pubber and occasional modded enjoyer, more enemies x2 and then adjusting aggressive enemies to fit the group is perfect right now. It feels really nice and meets my favorite parts of playing modded, but I don't have to go into a special discord to get players for it.

[@peanutm9346]

Agreed

[@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629]

same

[@w1q2e3r4t5]

I've seen people saying haz5+ being too hard, but most of the discussion I've seen is less of a "oh this is awful" and more "I wish we got an option for different modding possibilities, but I like some of these / It's not fun to me" As someone who ISN'T trying to push things crazy hard, and is more casual(ish), haz 5 is pretty chill sometimes, I like that I have the option to increase the challenge, and the multiple sliders are nice. If I want to just AoE down some bugs, it's an option. And if I want to get jumpscared by an elite grabber teleporting in from across the map, I can do that as well. All in all, I like it, I get why certain parts don't appeal to people (having tried out each of the modifiers, a couple of them just sort of break the casual flow that I like),. But it's soemthing that'll be fun to occasionally dip my toes into when I want more of a challenge. It will certainly be interesting to see what builds can actually survive the 5+ stuff.

[@FrazzleFlib]

Lots of good stuff said here, great discussion. I will say that I really think player vulnerability and aggression should absolutely not be mixed together, i really like that theyre separated. I like grunt packs being more threatening and things being harder to dodge and be faster, but I dont personally like being punished THAT hard for being grazed by a single trijaw shot or stabbed by one slasher, and I think a lot of people would agree with me with how much more Aggression I see in pub lobbies compared to Vulnerability (barely any) If anything I think theres an argument for separating things even more, specifically separating friendly fire into its own modifier. I think being hit harder be enemies vs being hit harder by teammates are 2 very different difficulty design philosophies and thus should be 2 different modifiers, since customization is the goal with Haz 5+ and i think a fair few people enjoy one but not the other. I could see myself dabbling in putting one on Vulnerability but the friendly fire aspect really makes me not interested at all, theres nothing I learn from a death caused by my scout misfiring and so I dont want that to happen. Last thing Ill say is I think a massive reason people dont like enemy Toughness, myself included, is it massively diminishes a massive part of of the game, if not THE thing that keeps many people playing for so long, build variety. with Toughness on youre basically forced into using only the best of the best builds and weapons and so many fun weapons and overclocks and builds are just completely not viable with that modifier on. I dont see the point in a modifier that just makes a shitton of OCs useless. It does have some merit tbf, as discussed, but I think this aspect was overlooked. Anyway Haz 5+ is amazing because we can all just play with what we want, season 5 is fantastic, rock n stone

[@KingNedya]

I agree with the enemy toughness point. I have yet to try it, since currently I'm just not good enough, and I will try it one day, but with what I know currently, it would kind of kill Elephant Rounds, which is a shame as it's one of my favorite overclocks. Elephant Rounds relies _very_ heavily on one-shot breakpoints to be effective, but if everything has a bunch more health, it becomes useless. So to fill the same niche I'd instead have to use Volatile Bullets, but Volatile Bullets locks me into literally two maybe three options, whereas Elephant Rounds works with everything. So it kills build variety. I do think it's a great option to have and certainly don't think it should be removed or anything, it's just one of those things that's probably not for me. And who knows, like I said I haven't tried it yet, maybe once I do I'll be surprised and end up liking it.

[@johnhughes9999]

While I really like the points made in this video, I think it’s important to mention that some people are forced to play on high latency and some of the design of hass5+ is exclusionary, too high latency players. Earlier today I attempted a hass 5+8 and lost at the very end. I felt like I was letting my team down because I was getting hit by attacks. That I should have, and could have dodged. (270+ ms delay on console)

[@Jaycielantern]

I don't think that's something any difficulty can really accomodate. With the exception of easier ones making it so being caught off guard isn't punishing, high lag just isn't something this game is meant to be played with and isn't designed around.

[@MeczennikFitnessu]

Play solo or be the host and stop complaining

[@_Ordinace_]

​@@muramasa870why tf are you watching a 2 hr video and complaining about a 50 word comment being too long, this is a completely valid argument, some people don't have access to the best internet and that does affect things

[@tomoe7255]

I don't think they can design the game around high latency, like others said, it's either a scenario that most people will avoid it or should avoid, or you can always go back to playing solo, not much anyone can do.

[@FrazzleFlib]

that sucks but what could possibly be done about this? this is an entirely different discussion of how the game handles ping on a technical level, merely more noticeable when the difficulty is turned up, its not super relevant to game design discussion tbh

[@squiddler7731]

I haven't played enough of hazard 5+ to have any strong opinions on it, but I was pretty surprised seeing just how insane some of the multipliers for it were. I get the feeling ghost ship is almost trying to future-proof this difficulty by making it to where the majority of players will never be comfortable enough playing hazard 5+8 to ask for something harder. Like at first you might look at the settings and think that it's basically haz 6, but no, if you max everything out it'd be closer to 7 or 8 in terms of the numbers (at least based on the wiki anyway). With +2 on more enemies, it's a bigger multiplier than going from haz 3 to 5. With aggressive enemies and tough enemies, the jump is as significant as going from haz 2 to 5. I wonder if the community reaction would've been different if hazard 5+ wasn't unlocked all at once. Like imagine if you only unlocked the first tier of haz 5+, and that gave you a new assignment to unlock the second tier. Maybe that sort of progression or framing could've given people a better impression on how difficult the new hazard levels would actually be.

[@FrazzleFlib]

The numbers should be ingame, that would fix the issue instantly. GSG is usually very good at giving players numbers instead of treating them like children who cant handle proper weapon stats (cough cough hd2) but it kinda sucks how you have to go to the wiki to actually know what youre toggling on or off.

[@squiddler7731]

@@FrazzleFlib I mean it kinda makes sense, the numbers for hazard 1-5 were never shown in-game so why start now? It's just weird because the one number we do get (the hazard bonus) doesn't even come close to matching how difficult haz 5+ actually is. With all of them maxed its +32%, which is basically the same as the jump from 4 to 5. The math doesn't add up: lethal enemies is literally just a weaker version of player vulnerability, and yet it's hazard bonus is 2.5x larger than the one you get from +2 player vulnerability. It gives the impression that the hardest haz 5 mission is probably still harder than the easiest haz 5+8 mission like how sometimes haz 4 is worse than 5, but in reality that couldn't be further from the truth.

[@squiddler7731]

Actually now that I think about it, I think I know what happened here: Ghost ship deliberately lowballed the hazard bonus for hazard 5+ because they either didn't want it to allow players to gain xp and resources too fast, or they didn't want a high hazard bonus to make players think they had to play 5+ for the reward, maybe both. I think I even remember them saying as much themselves, that you play 5+ for the challenge and not the reward. But the problem is that they forgot the hazard bonus isn't just about the reward, it also informs players how difficult a mission is expected to be. They thought a low hazard bonus would dissuade players from maxing out all the sliders because it's clearly not worth it, but in reality most players saw the low hazard bonus, thought "oh that's nothing I can take that no problem," and then proceeded to get absolutely destroyed by a mission that was way harder than they were lead to believe when everything is maxed out.

[@FrazzleFlib]

@@squiddler7731 Main difference is the difficulty is customizable, so its important to know what exactly each of the funny toggles do beyond the basic concept. also, yeah they dont want players to feel like they have to play 5+A for efficient rewards, i like just a little bonus tbh

[@squiddler7731]

@@FrazzleFlib it makes sense from a design standpoint, but if they aren't going to add exact numbers for the individual modifiers, they should probably increase the hazard bonus anyway. Right now I think the low hazard bonus is probably doing more harm than good.

[@dukernova]

I haven't watched the full video and it'll take me a while to do so, but I think Haz 5+ is actually really fun. The difficulty is wild for me, having never forayed into modded difficulties myself, but I love it. I still think even shitty builds will be usable, maybe some having good niche cases like bullet hell for mass stuns if you take that T3 mod. I don't think it's meant to be worth it, but it's there if you wish to do it. Maybe the hazard bonuses could be increased since +32% total for 5+8 is maybe too little, since 5 and 5+8 are VASTLY different. I think taking a different approach to my playstyle and how I tackle the missions was really, really fun! The fact that I was so vulnerable, the bugs were so fast, the vast swarms and the disruptives being more common and the tankiness of bugs was staggering, and I want to try it more. Entirely agree with ya on taking time to learn the new system and everything it has to offer, but I faced the difficulty and was very excited to try more when I feel like it!

[@CarbonKnight9]

I've been running aggressive enemies 2 and more enemies 2 because it's really just the same haz 5 that I know and love with the same breakpoints and damage values, just more difficult and pressuring/ makes me think more about what I'm doing which I appreciate, and it has really made a lot of the game feel fresh. I do feel like they did a good job listening and tuning tough enemies, it is very difficult and annoying but not impossible like it used to be, and while I personally don't find it that fun, I'm glad ghost ship listened for that one. Player vuln is so brutal though, 2x damage taken is a lot, we probably need to get used to it a bit more, but it does give really good players something to still shoot for so that's cool, even if I don't find it that fun, though I wouldn't mind if they nerfed it a bit, or maybe reworked it, though it will take more time to see what the changes would need to be, if any changes. Good vid

[@nophlast4237]

Holy crap a 2 hour rant I’m Here for it

[@cjs9818]

My real issue with Haz 5+ is that the Hazard Bonus you get is minimal compared to the difficulty and increase in time for the mission.

[@Alex_Smith_.]

I aint complaining about haz 5+ and people shouldnt be since all forms of difficulty are optional, its just the devs way of implementing harder difficulty into vanilla, the game is meant to be casual for most people and im fine with leaving the game and playing another game with the 1000 hours I put in the game playing mostly vanilla haz 5 and some harder difficulty, its easier for a newer player to be satisfied with new content rather than a player who has played hundreds of hours, and the best content veterans may want can come from other games that can satisfy them for more hundreds of hours

[@jonesbonesjon6031]

5+4 with more enemies and agressive enemies is so fucking fun. I like some variation of 5+6, but I'm not good enough yet for 5+8.

[@olaf.forkbeard]

On Friendly Fire: I just wish it was more intuitive. Bullet does 15 damage, and on Haz5 they take 10.5. On Haz5+2 they take much closer to 30. I'd rather they took 15 when it's capped out, because my gun does 15. I'm quite happy with where bug HP landed after experimental. I think they nailed the middle ground that would make more people happy than less.

[@D3lpDelight]

OFM napalm hurricane + neurotoxin VB max (i use ammo + recoil mod) ecr + vir(only 31211 is usable) VIM(projectile speed) or sludge blast both max ammo with pp epc with neurotoxin grenade EFS 23211 with cryo minelets(for extra damage against everything) 13211 or cryo bolts if you want to bring ifg, but cryo grenades are must have on mactera swarms; and with this team even corestone event on haz5+2222 is just the same for haz3 to 4 players to transition on haz5 just to get used to it

[@GulliverMurdaugh-cc5cd]

tbh I'm fine with base haz 5 and GSG making sabo the first mission on the assignment isn't giving me much incentive to start pushing myself so none of this rlly concerns me but I'll still watch this to give you .04 doubloon and context for the following drama

[@Phordd]

Well, you can complete sabo just for some juicy xp reward, mb even with double xp if you get lucky :)

[@lawgx9819]

i think the major problem personally is nitra cost, the only reason haz 6 and 6x2 are digestible were solely because of 60 or 40 vanilla on the other hand its much more or less the same but with 80 cost nitra, you can actually feel how tight the ammo economy is especially when you take the more enemies and tough enemies difficulty

[@considerthehumbleworm]

Look sometimes there’s “the straight man” that says it as it is and doesn’t coddle people, and sometimes there’s “the asshole” that’s just can’t help themself from passive-agressively insulting everyone

[@acticlacid]

I like playing haz 5+4 pubs (+1 all), I find it strikes a nice balance between being manageable enough that whatever cobbled together lobby can scrape through a win on pretty much any mission type, but stressful enough that it doesn't feel like I'm running on autopilot every time and makes me actually consider how I'm playing the game.

[@bulldozer8950]

Firstly more enemiesx2 for the win for real, it’s enough that it feels almost overwhelming which I feel like haz 5 can sort of not be once you play a decent bit especially without warnings. I personally don’t really care for player vuln, not really because it’s too hard or anything, but because I play without sound (my pc doesn’t even have speakers because I just don’t generally need them) and it makes things one shot you more often which without sound can go from sort of skill issue to just not constantly looking around with every pickax swing. The others are pretty chill, the aggressive definitely pushes you off autopilot if you do x2. All 8 at once is very hard, I’ve succeed egg, aquark, and mining. I don’t think I’d ever play 8x for caretaker 😂 but I’ll have to see for other missions how it feels. Deepscan feels pretty fine, oil seems like it’d be doable, elim seems doable, i haven’t played drilldozer yet with it but id assume its close to caretaker but maybe a little more doable. But caretaker and drilldozer are the two I could see being basically unplayable, but even they’re mostly just because it would make it really hard… which is kind of the point of the difficulty. I do sort of hope they’ll add more sliders like more enemy diversity that sounds pretty cool Edit: also being able to do the modifiers on lower difficulties would kind me nice, particularly more enemies because something like haz 3 with more enemies x2 i feel like can be a nice balance when playing with newer players that cant handle the speed of 5 but want to fight lots of bugs Also ya i was super surprised by how fast they were because it is FAST, like to the point that normal kiting strats have to change the same way going from haz 4 to 5 requires a different type of kiting. I also have only played pubs so my haz 5 +8 is also skewed by that

[@griss295]

My main gripe with 5+ is playing solo, which is what I do most it just hurts. Not the damage, the speed, the health, but the threat enemy spam is just bullshit for solo, too much to do at once and a enormous punishment for failling anything I just roll 5 regular and it's fine

[@gamma4704]

some modded players feel like the souls players of drg. terraria modded has this exact issue

[@fxracer1860]

As a terraria and deep rock player. The terraria players are way worse lmao.

[@FrazzleFlib]

True, but Calamity 100% has it worse lmao. Im still salty how Malice was flat out removed instead of discontinued because people couldnt handle that it was too hard for them. me personally it was the absolutely perfect difficulty for 2 person multiplayer. thankfully Master mode is now being reworked into something hopefully resembling Malice but even more fun, the boss changes look really cool and hard.

[@gamma4704]

@@FrazzleFlib im more of a vanilla guy and I remember when i played calamity about 600 hours into my vanilla playtime i was struggling with the game on master deatj but was enjoying the challenge. But some people couldnt handle rhat i was being absolutely crushed by the early bosses so i was told what build to use and how to play and it ruined early game for me, thats why i font play haz 6x2 with randos on like the discord because its just “run this don’t run that do this do that” on a 4 egg mission

[@gamma4704]

@@fxracer1860 100%

[@Nodnarb518]

i had no idea there this level of sweaty DRG play. Im a casual

[@soorian6493]

M DOT fuck em up is a hilarious chapter title

[@littlezimty]

This is not an adversarial comment. I only play haz 3 or 4 so I don't have a horse in this race, however from playing some other games on the "hardest difficulty" I have some opinions. These players have spent hundreds of hours learning break points and play strategies which have been invalidated by the health and vulnerability sliders. Increased enemy count and speed on the other hand is more like "do what you were already doing but faster and better". It makes sense they like the one type of difficulty yet feel discouraged by the other. I agree with you that it's too soon to nerf stuff, simply don't play with all sliders maxed out if that challenge isn't fun. I wish gsg would let me have these sliders on lower hazard so I could mix and match my mining experience as well but I fully understand why they decided against it.

[@peasant5063]

Crawlers on max aggression is also really funny, had alot of fun trying to dodge them as scout w/ jetboots

[@cammy2point1]

Oh lord it's Judgement Day for the 6x2 "elites"

[@karlneff]

As a DRG fan and not a modded lover/hater I am having trouble understanding why you are so adversarial to a group that I would describe as masochistic tryhards. I know of pvewaste from the OC tierlist video and if the crime is narcissistically talking about the flavor of masochism they enjoy; why are you so mad? If the opinions they carry sound whiny or lame that isn't your problem especially so if those opinions haven't affected DRG balancing updates. (I wouldn't know but I enjoy the current balance quite a lot) In regards to player vulnerability, I don't like the way it has been implemented, dying in 5 hits instead of 9(like some bosses in hollow knight) feels reasonable and fairly good vulnerability implementation. Normal haz 5 for me is usually damage loss through chip over time and haz 5 + 2vulnerability I'll go from near full to downed in a third of a second multiple times per mission. The way this works isn't enjoyable for me because it makes me feel like I can't play as freely as I would otherwise. Players go down more frequently and the lethality of a single bug means I can't risk reviving teammates before clearing the entire room(unless I am gunner) in many situations I may have felt comfortable doing so even if it was a dumb choice. My issue with vulnerabilty as implemented is that it punishes unsafe fun play.

[@karlneff]

I am most comfortable and interested in Haz 5 with 2 pips in enemies and 2 pips in aggressive enemies. Tougher enemies is a challenge I may turn on for morkite mining, eggs, and dreads in the future. The vulnerability is not for me at least not with 3 randoms and 4-player difficulty scaling.

[@karlneff]

40 minutes in and I get the hate for the modded players now. 39:47 for those curious

[@karlneff]

One thing that could make me interested in player vulnerability is deservedly higher hazard pay for that modifier over the other three.

[@karlneff]

To any one deep enough in my thread I have a suggestion for naming the customized difficulty. I've seen Haz5+8 and Haz5+2222 but Haz5+4 is unclear and Haz5+2002 or Haz5+2200 sounds like a year. Maybe Haz5+EEAAVVTT is too inefficient for players who shorten ready to r, but I can see myself using Haz5+EEAA or Haz5+2EA. My favorite idea is to use capitalization to denote one or two pips. so Haz5+2202 becomes Haz5+EAT and Haz5+1101 is Haz5+eat

[@monsoonify]

@@karlneff the person who made that comment in the video is zgxmax and(speaking on behalf of the NA high level players) he is banned from every space I'm in because of his toxicity and bigotry

[@soresoarer981]

Green swarmer

[@AxisKronos]

-999 health

[@thaiviper5392]

The only way I know to play with mods on Xbox is to have a person on PC play the Xbox version of the game usually through the xbox app for PC. Then they can invite a friend who is on the Xbox console to their game which is modded.

[@agamemnon7518]

I think it's cool they added this. At most i only play extra enemies because i know im just not good enough and don't wanna get tilted regularly in drg. Im not the intended audience for this and thats okay

[@SolventofSleep]

I must find out what old elites were like now, thanks for piquing my interest.

[@bignose1752]

1:08:14 its not that difficult, I only lose about 2/3 of the time.

[@anobesediabeticpotatonamed3115]

God help you

[@olaf.forkbeard]

.. This number is about exactly accurate. Oof.

[@deemo665]

Bro really got worked up enough about the dozen modded difficulty players to rant for two hours

[@AxisKronos]

Infinite content glitch: be angy

[@guilhermedecarvalhofernand1629]

All l gonna say is Increasing difficult by making enemies bullet sponge unless you use busted shit and making so a ton of stuff can oneshot is just not fun. It promotes safe play too much. Instead l would have liked a option to increase the amount of special enemies per waves.

[@ThePixelPodcast]

I quite like to just turn the bug numbers up. Just makes for a slightly tougher haz 5.

[@agentoranj5858]

Sick RJ250 jumps BTW.

[@the1lemen]

This is the haz 4 game i just had

[@xPumaFangx]

I play this game casually. I come back for new skins and then stop. For me, HAS 5 is cool. The difficulty is a way to learn the game, and the harder the game gets. You are doing better in that diff. The better of a player you are. I have not done mods. I have done games with HAS 5 +1 or something like that. The truth about me is that I forget the tricks I used to use at HAS 5. So, I end up working my way back up to HAS 5.

[@Xedice8897]

Most people don't realize "my version of the game is of course the most fun for me" and "everyone should play it my way" are two logically contradictory statements. And some people can't cope with the fact that some people can't cope with something, which is a self proven statement. I don't even see a solution because there is no actual problem at all. Most of my friends don't even play haz 5 and I never even tried to invite them to a higher difficulty. But when I play with them I don't think neither of us enjoy the game any less.

[@mepostvideo5620]

classic Gago carry

[@AKThompson]

Its pretty awesome now that the game can be truly called difficult at the highest level at the game, officially(as in high level gameplay that is necessary isnt exclusive to the modders anymore). I can handle most the modifiers fine so far even toughness. But player vulnerability is where sweats are born. Small mistakes being potential run enders is awesome for people testing the limit. I cant imagine many people even high level will be doing 5+8 as a standard thing due to that tho

[@girigiri9379]

15:40 - good thing turrets now glued to the drop pod(no)

[@sammyhorace7523]

Although I would like to say one thing aggressive enemy does not increase enemy damage they just attack more frequently so you can still take some hits it's just not one shot.

[@loan-gaming9248]

You know i often agree with waste, but he made me feel really bad about hazard5+ even tho i havent played much of it. So yeah i think you guys are making a lot of good points and i will give it a fair chance too. Regards

[@FrazzleFlib]

Only good point waste made is how Toughness murders build variety and makes so many OCs fucking useless, I think thats the main reason people dont like it.

[@p_serdiuk]

I think waste said that Haz 5+8 is not _bad_, it's a sidegrade to modded difficulties, that can be more or less enjoyable to different players.

[@gamma4704]

@@FrazzleFlib i do agree although i dont see the reason to freak out over it and want it out like a lot of people seem. I prefer to do my 5+ with more enemy 2 and aggressive 2 but ive seen people who like only toughness or only lethal or all max, thats the beauty of not having a straight haz 6

[@OnCoated]

I love the new difficulty. Have been wanting a challenge and got it.

[@aligaming7575]

other than some overclocks feeling a liiiiiitle cluncky season 5 has been PEREFCT for me. i play on xbox so seeing more enemies and aggressive enemies has been wonderful for me

[@theflyingwhale5778]

only problem I have with +8 is that M1K can't 1 shot without any damage upgrade

[@Cascade7155]

Supercooling chamber🗿

[@Astro939]

Did you cut out the core stone fight at 1:11:00 because you zipline cheesed it? Haha I'd like to hear your thoughts on the corespawn tbh. To me they seem out of place difficulty-wise by drg standards. Too tanky/mobile, people seem to have a lot of trouble killing them so everyone I've seen just zipline cheeses them, which ruins the fun imo. Maybe a nerf is needed so people can actually fight them fairly rather than resorting to cheese tactics

[@sinkpisserpro]

Just finished watching a few of your other videos and I clicked back to the homepage because I was out of you to watch….. AND LO!!!!!!!!!! There ye blast!!!!

[@evan9730]

30:44 you took no damage because you were using NTP

[@LouisScholes]

true

[@olaf.forkbeard]

That's a decision you are allowed to make when you bring gunner.

[@evan9730]

@olaf.forkbeard it's also the easiest to use and abuse if any gunner primary abd it's more impressive to lose a mission while using it

[@olaf.forkbeard]

@@evan9730 Yeah. It's massively powerful. It is no way surprising that it was helpful here. It's a thing the game intends to allow you to do. Discourse against it's use is an arbitrary line in the sand.

[@evan9730]

@@olaf.forkbeard i'm just saying that it's kinda funny to brag about beating a difficult mission using a weapon which is universally considered the one which you take to beat difficult mission if you're not very good.

[@exoduspeanut6843]

Yesterday a friend and i decided to give haz5,8 a try. We thought we were so screwed that we decided to get as in game drunk as possible and play. (We won)

[@AlteQT]

I love haz5 +8. I only play haz 5 and some games can be boring. Haz 5 +8 offer a challenge even to the most seasoned greybeards

[@jonathanhoward5284]

As a vanilla player, who struggles with all combat games. I’ve tried and tried haz 5 and I cannot get past it. Maybe if I put in more time than I’m willing to I could, but I like my playtime. My only wish is that the vanilla modifiers could have also applied to other hazards so I could play with them. RnS.

[@augustmancuso2272]

Released finally

[@kolavadae4592]

description gave me a brain wave

[@bubblepop8045]

9:11 this is what haidex deserves 10/10 do it again

[@ONXshaman]

to unlock haz 5+ you need to play sabotage on haz 5 :) so i havent tried it yet

[@emilelariviere2712]

0:50 PIKMIN Y3EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEDEEEEEES

[@idontknowmusictheory532]

While i dont disagree with your points i don’t understand why you have to be so passive-aggressive towards modded players. Everything you said in this video feels like you consider modded players egoistic assholes who just wanna feel good about themselves by beating hard difficulties and look down on the rest of the community. That is really not the case and im open to debate anyone who disagrees.

[@exoduspeanut6843]

I've watched a lot of haz 6x2 videos and I've always wanted to try it! I know I'd never win a mission but the overbearing challenge could be fun! Sadly however, I'm on console so hazard 6 was impossible for me 5,8 gives me a decent challenge that I can finally lose to on console!

[@idontknowmusictheory532]

@@exoduspeanut6843 yea awesome, thats the mindset that modded players have, we just wanna keep stuggling

[@BiomechanicalBrick]

ok mr haz12x1.333 2 nitra resupply 100 morkite

[@idontknowmusictheory532]

@@BiomechanicalBrick do you actually know anything about modded difficulties or are you just parroting what axis said?

[@jex-the-notebook-guy1002]

Except you people are that. You say the game is too easy and don't like enemy nerfs. You people say you never see the stalker because it dies too fast. I say play by yourself to see it and beat haz 5 without upgrades. Now you can suffer finally. You people are like Aizen. You are too "perfect". And anybody that struggles on Haz 5 should just "get good".

[@BiomechanicalBrick]

"haz10x1.5, 5 nitra resupplies" lol

[@ShiGuy55]

About time for this peak to release.

[@SR-388]

This is a very odd discussion, mainly cause I dont really bother to stay in the loop with community complaints, but from my perspective coming from other games with difficulty modifiers like halo odst and reachs firefight, hell even halo 2 legendary, the community delt with the bullshit and saw it as a challenge, maybe not a fun challenge, but a different way to play the game, and that's what I view these difficulty options, imo I'd want to see more, things like ammo taking 2x as much when firing, or the old black eye skull where the only way to recharge shields is to melee an enemy.

[@kun-kun448]

In practically any game where there are varying difficulties there will be some elitism among the people who enjoy the more difficult options. Heck, even in games without explicit difficulty options like the souls series elitism exists in the form of “scrub weapons” that some say are too good and “don’t count” or that using summons is “baby mode” or whatever else. At the end of the day, it’s just people looking down at others for enjoying the game differently than they do, and typically this leads to reverse elitism as well where more casual players become equally spiteful towards the ones who enjoy the bigger difficulty. I think browbeating others for how they enjoy the game- or worse- demanding that the game should be changed to specifically fit their own vision is a very fast path to vitriol and divisions in a games community. That’s why I love DRG though, through many intelligent design decisions on the gameplay level that encourage teamwork (and rock’n’stone of course), it’s nurtured a community where no matter how you play the vast, vast majority of people respect you and act kindly towards you. Of course, some elitism does still pop up, and discourse around Haz5+ has demonstrated that pretty clearly. As for Haz5+ itself, I’m glad that there’s an official option now for those who want more of a challenge, and I think that the fact that it is and OPTION is what’s being lost on many people. You don’t have to like it, and you don’t have to play it, but some people are getting their egos hurt over the fact that they just can’t complete Haz5+8 even though they see themselves as grizzled veterans. Maybe that’s not the games fault, or GSG fault, or their teammates fault- but them. As you said earlier, I think it’s too early to cry and complain to GSG that the difficulty designed to kill people is killing people, and play it more to see where the issues lie. If the issue is that “it’s not fun” then go play in the way that is fun for you personally. To round out this TLDR comment, I want to suggest 2 other haz5+ modifiers I thought might be interesting: 1. Short Supply - Supplies are tight for this mission. At level 1, each resupply only grants 40% health and ammo. At level 2, only 33%. Don’t waste your ammunition! 2. Chaos Cave - Strange core signals reverberate through the cave’s walls and are modifying the enemies that spawn. Warning/event enemies can now spawn, and level 2 makes them more common. This means that you’ll often encounter robots, rockpox enemies, ebonite glyphids, frost/irradiated versions of enemies, core crawlers, and enemies filled with parasites. Can potentially increase enemy diversity by a good amount.

[@TheSzaliq]

What is "The Beninging" ?

[@yorsch9577]

i play haz 4 most of the time. i want to chill. sometimes 5 if i want a challange. but i didnt played 5+x right now. modifieres are hard enougth for me

[@sammyhorace7523]

I'm going to unlock Hazard 5+ and barely touch that mode I don't I don't know why some people ask for hazard 5+ or higher difficulty.

[@desko2041]

Because haz 5 can get easy for some and adjustable difficulty is nice

[@sammyhorace7523]

@@desko2041 but then they complain about it being too hard.

[@CarbonKnight9]

@@sammyhorace7523that's why there's a middle ground, you can tweak the settings a bit to make it harder if haz 5 is too easy, but not all the way because that makes it too hard (some of the modifiers make substantial changes, others not as much)

[@sammyhorace7523]

@@CarbonKnight9 okay I'm going to say this I'm not against people want to make the game harder I'm against people complaining that the game is getting too hard.

[@jonathanhoward5284]

Maybe I missed it, but I feel like no one has put out Contant on what + 8 is.

[@LouisScholes]

BROS NAMEING NAMES

[@AT-ob8xr]

Lmao I like waste but yeah this was hilarious

[@AT-ob8xr]

@@LouisScholesI haven’t watched the whole video I was just talking about the intro

[@LouisScholes]

@@AT-ob8xr oh mb

[@jackfish297]

Funny its like its an optional difficulty or something for you to flex how good you are , almost like those nodded servers

[@BiomechanicalBrick]

arch elitist tries to out-elitist the mega elitists: the motion picture

[@Cascade7155]

Bro did you not watch the video? Despite being very rude, Axis was still very humble.

[@fxracer1860]

19:35 let him cook

[@PainProjection]

impressive podcast, but how about doing it without other people helping you making a point next time? 🤓 (sorry, couldn't resist to make this bad joke)

[@azerod7436]

I have to say that I’m confused by this video Who are you talking to ? I like deep rock, I have some 250 hours in it, so not a lot but enough to have an idea of what is happening, and seeing a two hour video which practically doesn’t talk about "hazard 5+" for the first hour is weird Like I came here hoping to get tips about the difficulty, maybe some insight as to what work, what doesn’t… And a huge part of the video is dedicated to the extreme subset of a subset of player which I think most people have never interacted with I know they probably affect you more than me the random viewer, but it’s not because they are very vocal that you should make video specifically addressing their complains…

[@exoduspeanut6843]

I think a simple re-titling of the video to more address the audience he's talking about would go a long way. Also I've noticed that axis gets a bit angry when someone else doesn't share the same opinion as him.

[@p_serdiuk]

I agree that player vulnerability and bug health are not the best options ever. DRG thrives on strategy, positioning, and threat prioritization. Punishing mistakes this hard, and making it so it's impossible to kill important bugs quickly, spoils the core gameplay loop to an extent. Haz 5+ ideally should be extended with more possible options IMO.

[@TheArkInfinity]

Insanely funny 2:04:52

[@Pepitossj4]

The game is enough challenging without mods for the first 100 hours? It looks fun but i heard the vanilla game is too easy

[@smickolasnith3812]

Absolute yap fest

[@Jenkkimie]

I know that Deep Rock Galactic just got a new season and a little bit of new content but when the developers stated they are going to make the boardgame and then the rogue-like, it felt like they were going to mostly abandon DRG for those new projects or at least shift major development time away from DRG into those projects. I am just not sure if it was worth it? Where would the game be now if properly invested into?

[@froggergod4939]

My shittiest idea with DRG is a modifier that sends you to a menu with the option to add a second overclock that you have to one or both of your weapons. It would be broken and dumb but I think it could go so hard.

[@krypt1ccc739]

You do realise you can just give your opinion on a subject rather than verbally shadow boxing modded people's opinions; We are not all one entity that share the same opinion. You seem to be looking for drama right out of the gate in the intro and at few other points in the video. My general semtiment is that player vulnrability should be switched for wave/swarm frequency because it would make it hard in a more fun way but I dont disagree with all your points, theres just no need to adress them in the childish manner you do. The names of timestamps and the description seem to show that this obnoxious personality is exactly what youre going for now and instead of idk taking a look at yourself, you're leaning into it?? Perhaps its good for engagement (like this comment xD) but I really dont know anymore. You can give insightful perspectives and we could actually have good debates in this community but more and more people dont want to engage with a person like you.

[@sammyhorace7523]

Ok bro he not look for drama.

[@krypt1ccc739]

​@sammyhorace7523 maybe not intentionally, but his childish brain can't think of another way to address points than to indirectly insult people.

[@krypt1ccc739]

Anyway, to come back to this: Firstly, you're still an asshole and you really said out loud that bosco requires skill to use 😭 and implied that TS players don't have the skill to use bosco. I literally cried with laughter watching that section (so at least I found some humour from this video). Like I could take the rest of the video seriously but that section really cemented the idea that you're just looking for drama or have actually lost your mind. Secondly, I actually like player vulnerability now after playing it a lot; It's really punishing but I wouldn't want it removed. However, I would still like a swarm/wave frequency modifier. It could just be a 5th modifier option and I think that would work fine.

[@Jakkaribik1]

In Short, DRG made the Player WEAK and ONE SHOOT and mods make the ENEMIES MORE DANGEROUS (BUT they can't really one shoot you as much) so DRG DID IT like you Lost HP or SHIELD

[@danielherrera4250]

Lmfao I run 5 plus pubs everyday I just work around it when I have good players it’s just a better play but I usually work around the more enemies that’ll spawn with more players and I have a setup that allows for easy revives so I be chillin but fyvk man this shii is hard I win 1 outs 3 games I lose a fuck Ton

[@AngeL-mx6ww]

tf did they do to drg game's too easy now

[@bullet3417]

He is wrong about moded

[@georgegeorge3619]

he sounds like Charlie (moist)

[@AxisKronos]

We stay moist

[@agentoranj5858]

700 hour scrub who's never gone into modded difficulties here, gonna waste your time anyway. I settled on Haz5 because it's right at my personal limit of what I think is challenging but not frustrating. At Haz5 fall damage is already brutal and enemies can take a player down in 2-3 hits (often depending on if his shield recharges between hits), but enemies are right at that perfect point of toughness where swarms dissolve when things are going well but a couple of grunts are genuinely intimidating when things go wrong. Deep Rock is one of only two shooters I enjoy playing at the highest vanilla difficulty. Other shooters that rely on increasing enemy HP and damage numbers for difficulty like Halo 2, Halo Reach, Fallout 3, Bulletstorm etc. lose their flow past the second-highest setting because making the enemies too tough slows the game down and making the player too fragile forces more cautious gameplay which is boring and also slows the game down. I avoided Haz6 in DRG because I expected it to be a speedbump to gameplay and to tilt risk:reward too much just like (Hardest) difficulty does in other shooters, while also exacerbating the annoyance of (mostly avoidable but rarely amusing) deaths by fall damage or environmental hazards that already abrade me in Haz5. Haz5+ being a modular difficulty is really interesting to me and something I can't complain about because I'm exactly the kind of player that will not touch the Player Vulnerability and Enemy Toughness settings with a barge pole, but will get excited about having More Enemies to shoot and having to play faster to avoid more Aggressive Enemies.

[@e100pavel]

Both you and modded players have good guides for my money, so both of your experiences lead to better game knowledge that you can pass on. This makes me kinda sad that things are so divided between you as the community of guide makers. Both sides should really just bond together over hard things and not make things so morally complicated for us lowly haz4 casuals (also insert "society if X" meme)

[@soorian6493]

It's crazy that there are people who feel entitled to be able to perform flawlessly at the max difficulty in a week. No one is making you play max.

[@xxANBUxx]

Holy based 12:10

[@sammyhorace7523]

If they wanted the most difficult challenge without any modifier or mods try going to a mission that has lethal and enemies with Shield disruption.

[@LouisScholes]

YES

[@jeffbob-y8v]

will finish the video but i also thought that when people complain and say hz5+ just simply isnt as good of fun in the challenging sense as 6x2 for example waste made a video about haz5+ and how player vulnerability is too strong and while he makes a case another major point no one talks about is that console simply cant mod the game (unless we can and im just clueless) so as a console player who not to blow up my own bubble can do haz 5 missions successfully. I wanted something that made the average mission alot more challenging i tried one 200 morkite full mods and failed miserably after the first swarm and i loved it. This is the first time console players can experience something new in terms of difficulty, yh this went on too long just wanted to put out a argument i haven't personally seen alot.