Hearthstone Pro Rates CLASSIC Yu-Gi-Oh! Cards! ft. @Rarran

[@Unheilsgott]

"I was never a burn person." - Alexander "Chain Burn" Cimo

[@chanceneck8072]

There was a time, way back in the day, where I just LOVED burn decks. 🤩 I was trying to build a pretty toxic but consistent burn deck on the DS game (2005 or 2004 World Championship, I believe), I just couldn't make it consistent enough. So I played a fiend deck instead. 😅 But I remember that I had some pretty brutal losses against a burn deck....

[@Excellsion]

*"WE HAVE NEW BURN TECHNOLOGY"*

[@gandung777]

Gage having progs ptsd in the background

[@gb4770]

"So, when would you activate Drop off?" Alex looks at the camera and takes a deep breath, taking a moment to ponder whether it's worth going into it before saying: "When they draw"

[@TurntOddish]

I was actually hoping he would go over the degenerate "FTK" with Drop Off lol

[@letroll4479]

im 99.9999% sure rarran thought lava golem comes on your OWN side of the field and tributes 2 enemy monsters T_T that answer was 2 fast and 2 confident

[@leroy5835]

It's cause he said it to 100% at 1:05:02 prob tired of reading after over an hour

[@megalogoro6388]

​@@leroy5835 his reading comprehension this episode was pretty bad 😹

[@XGoldenx03]

He 100000000% thought that and if that was the case this card would never be unbanned

[@CirnoFairy]

@@megalogoro6388 when is it not?

[@Sinzari]

3x Fissure 3x Smashing Ground was being played specifically in Gadget decks, which for people who didn't play at the time, ran 3 copies of Red, Green, and Yellow Gadget, which each add another Gadget from your deck to your hand. This meant that as long as you could draw 1 Gadget, you could loop through them summoning 1 per turn, and you would NEVER run out of monsters (Pot of Avarice was also played to recycle them if you ran out of Gadgets in deck). This meant that you could just make the rest of your deck entirely 1 for 1 removal, and remove every monster your opponent played, while your (non-Gadget) opponents would run out of removal for your infinite Gadgets. Even though the Gadgets were individually very free, the infinite cycle/card advantage meant that as long as you could remove every single monster your opponent played, you could start hitting face for ~1200-2400 every turn, and the game would end in about 5 turns. It made the game pretty boring, because it made the game no longer about monster on monster combat, and more just about "play a monster, remove opponent's monster, hit face, pass", and your opponent would do the exact same thing, until one person ran out of removal and/or life. It took the game printing stronger boss monsters and more explosive turns for this kind of play pattern to stop being the best thing you could be doing, and that's when Fissure and Smashing Ground came off the limited lists.

[@stephenlong9806]

That is so funny to me, because your basically describing the gameplay loop for magic, minus the looping. Play a monster, hope it sticks, kill their monster, swing, repeat. That's considered 'fair' magic. So hearing that described by a yugioh player as boring and too slow really shows the difference between the 2 games.

[@Sinzari]

@@stephenlong9806 LOL That's kind of true, but imagine that with every creature being a vanilla with haste, and decks being about 50% single target removal that's 0 mana. MtG works because summoning sickness, creature abilities, and mana all make the game more interactive, whereas in yugioh it was just play removal, play monster with haste, swing, pass, repeat. Usually in MtG you can't play removal while also playing a creature (at least early) and your creatures don't have haste and you have less removal, so eventually creature combat starts mattering. I play a lot of MtG too and prefer slower midrange-y decks, so this kind of gameplay would be perfect to me, but even for me it was just too linear and boring in that meta.

[@sampy1004]

I think YuGiOh should have a Purge day once a year where Pot of Greed is legal.

[@1inimilian567]

It would just be what we have now but be a bit more infuriating. Like it is just a “go ahead negate this, I still have full combo and if you don’t I get hand traps or more extension.” It would just be a “UUUHHH of course you drew that.” Card.

[@timothyvenske6519]

There are no-banlist tournaments they’re just not very frequent

[@this19suffering]

Potge

[@xolotltolox7626]

that is insanely stupid idea

[@918guy]

Pot of Charity Annual Tournament of Friendship pot of greed and graceful charity at 3 charity tournament

[@adamdecoder1]

Gonna be honest, based on Rarran's complete absence of analysis or clarifying questions on Lava Golem, I'm pretty sure he missed the part where it's special summoned to the opponent's field, and then didn't want to admit that his reading comp was bad twice in one video lol

[@kecvu]

Yeah I thought that as well 😂 Silly Rarran

[@Begeru]

Yea he’s so bad at paying attention. He even admitted that he was distracted thinking about Book of Moon’s art while Cimo was explaining why it was so good.

[@jondo7680]

I thought that too but he wasn't surprised about magical cylinder being mentioned so maybe he did understand the card.

[@HazeEmry]

@@Begeru adhd king

[@MatPlayingVidyaRPP]

To think that Rarran's top coined phrase is "Reading the card explains the card"

[@michaelsparks1571]

Re: Parshath: Wait so you're telling me that cards in YuGiOh can be moderately busted but balanced by requiring expending resources?!?!

[@Pistolsatsean]

That card is unplayable in modern Yugioh

[@KigerrTLON]

Sounds like a different card game

[@antman7673]

Pro: -Drawing a card is insane. Contra: -In Battlephase can be prevented to deal damage -has additional cost to summon -before pay-off is a negative-1, when it requires tribute -bad stats -does not work turn 1, beacause no attacks turn 1 Conclusion: Costs in Yugioh exists differently: -card advantage -restricting other plays -using up resources like normal summons Power level is also important, when considering a card.

[@Merilirem]

The difference is that in Yugioh you don't need to play with cards that use resources.

[@Pistolsatsean]

@@michaelsparks1571 The thing with Yugioh is although cards don't have "costs" they aren't actually free. Spells are the only Yugioh cards that are actually free, when you play a normal spell you get it's effect immediately with no cost. With trap cards they are delayed but have no cost. But with monsters you only get 1 normal summon a turn. It is NOT like having a 0 MV/cost monster in another game. In Yugioh that would be a monster that can special summon itself with no restriction, which afaik does not exist.

[@matthewglenn3081]

For those wondering about mirrage of nightmare still being banned today: It can draw you 4 hand traps on your opoonents turn

[@amethonys2798]

You also are far more likely to just end up on quick effect removal somewhere in your end board so even IF you don't draw into a bunch of hand traps you can just pop the mirage in engine to keep your cards.

[@matthewglenn3081]

@@amethonys2798 even if you don't, there is more than one archetype that wouldn't mind more things in grave

[@GodzillaFreak]

Which is super mid and fine

[@darkpuppetlordful]

​@@matthewglenn3081 yeah Mirage + dark world for example basically removes the one downside from Mirage (as it's not for cost every dark world that has a discard effect activates) imagine dropping 2 grapha, a beiige and a broww, two omni target pops, a beiige special summon (that enables grapha revive) and a draw from broww.

[@mrg2155]

Laugh out Loud at anyone who can’t see how insanely powerful and versatile Mirage of Nightmare would still be today 😂😂😂 like don’t even talk, it would be multitudes better today! Tear, handtraps, Dangers, Rollback, cyclone, Purrley, Sky Striker, Darkworld, aggregator… You’d get rolled before you knew what happened 😂

[@dark_rit]

I think Rarran misunderstood lava golem a lot because it seemed like he thought it was summoned on your side by destroying two of your opponents monsters, which would be amazing and almost assuredly banned at some point because who wouldn't take a 2 for 0 where the only 'cost' would be losing 1K lifepoints a turn, but you have a 3K beatstick to whack your opponent with.

[@Begeru]

Fr the fact he didn’t even consider what downside it has makes me think he thought you get the lava golem on your side

[@HoboBrute]

It's worth noting that drop off, while a potentially toxic effect, was more annoying because it resulted in rule sharking and judge calls, cause if you wait for your opponent to add the card to their hand and do anything (shuffle) with their hand, you could just claim your opponent didnt discard the right card

[@drewbabe]

rule sharking to get a judge call is just a meta floodgate. YGO players really will try to play as little YGO as possible

[@kurosakiichigo7475]

If you wait till they put the card in their hand and shuffle it havnt you missed the chance to activate drop off? Sorry Yu-Gi-Oh noob here, i dont understand fully.

[@castill1]

@@kurosakiichigo7475not if the player immediately shuffled their hand before going to the next phase. If they do it’s an auto loss if you call the judge over. It’s toxic

[@JunkoEnoshima.]

One day you will give him Xyz and Links cards to evaluate. One day

[@fireball1249]

But first, he needs to be shown Synchro which is my #1 Favorite Summoning Mechanic.

[@JunkoEnoshima.]

@@fireball1249 he gave him synchros before. I don't remember any Xyz or Link though

[@purpledragon5398]

Was he shown gorz

[@SDREHXC]

He’s played swordsoul to I think Diamond in master duel so I mean, he’s not going to be shocked when he sees different extra deck cards. CGB will be though.

[@Funforme-z7c]

At this point from prog to this series I feel cimo just doesn’t know what a link is. He’s just wondering why rituals have arrows now lol.

[@chaslyndrilling7380]

Rarran: "No I don't think there's a secret that exists like this" for magic cylinder Eye for an eye: "Am I a joke to you!"

[@murasame1450]

Well it's one if not the worst secret ever made, so pretty much yeah :D

[@unaffectedbycardeffects9152]

​@@murasame1450I feel like more than half of all secrets fit that description. But eye for an eye is just there to nerf random spell generation

[@ysqure3]

Eye for an Eye not preventing any damage is a pretty big difference. Sudden Betrayal and Vengeful Visage also feel like they're in the same ballpark. All have some key differences from Magic Cylinder, naturally--Sudden Betrayal doesn't have the burn angle, Vengeful Visage doesn't have the defensive angle. But they're all at least pretty reminiscent of Magic Cylinder.

[@Begeru]

@@ysqure3yea but Rarran compared Gnomeferatu to Drop Off and they’re not the same at all.

[@ysqure3]

@@Begeru Okay? So...? Rarran's compared lots of cards to lots of other cards, I was only talking about Magic Cylinder there.

[@SackofDooDoo]

49:41 "I hate reading; it ruins the day." The wisest of words.

[@sendouvincent8232]

He starting to become a Ygo player.

[@PrismaSigma]

Tribe-Infecting Virus effectively reads: "You may turn any card in your hand into 'Fissure But Better' whenever you want, as many times as you want." So naturally Rarran thought the card was fine right after hearing the rationale on why Fissure had to be limited.

[@DuskoftheTwilight]

It sounded like Rarran was thinking about it like a Battlecry effect in Hearthstone, so he was thinking it would happen once when you play the monster and then it's just a guy on field. He didn't fully process the idea that you could just keep pitching cards to keep killing things.

[@monkfishy6348]

Drop Off was a ruling nightmare, being a Judge back then was the worst because you would have people draw for turn, then their opponent would wait until they shuffled their hand, then they would activate Drop off and call for a game loss of their opponent because they created an irreperable game state by shuffling their hand after drawing.

[@squirrel_killer-]

This feels like the type of thing that if you did this and it was noticed they'd just throw your trouble causing disruptive butt out of the tournament, with frequent offenders being lifetime banned. Just not the type of person you want in your community for the health of your tournaments.

[@HoboBrute]

In regards to fissure, it's worth noting that from its first printing in literally the first set of the TCG LoB in 2002, it was basically always playable and good up until about 2008 when it was finally outclassed in one for one removal. Old yugioh often had a lot of cookie cutter decks when upwards of half the cards in any given player's deck would be the same group of staples, and fissure was one of the most frequent offenders in that regard as just spot removal

[@cha0ss0ldier-4]

Fissure was replaced as soon as smashing ground came out in IOC

[@HoboBrute]

@@cha0ss0ldier-4 I'm pretty sure if you go back and look, you'd be surprised how many lists were running both

[@Jobbaz]

​@@XCodesCap. Sure, there is the Dad exception, but higher defence usually translates into a better monster overall. In goat format fissure is so worse than smashing. You just chain scapegoat to it and your opponent goes -1. In Edison they are more close, but Smashing sees way more play for some good reason. -As I said: better stats usually equals better monster. Defense included. - You don't want to be bound to remove ANY scrub on the field until you'd be able to deal with a big problematic monster. Take tytannial for example. If your opponent has a bunch of tokens and a lonefire to pair with her... With smashing ground you don't even bother. With fissure it is kinda dicey.

[@Spyromancy598]

19:03 Cimoooooooo desperately tries not to say "After it was banned"

[@Landibert]

Well the thing with fissure is, that it's actually not that bad a card for spot removal, kill the lower atk monster with your monster, fissure the high atk one because it's the only one left. And at the time you just had soooo many 1-for-1-cards, Fissure, Smashing Grounds, Nobleman of Crossout, Sakuretsu Armor, Widespread Ruin, Trap Hole, Bottomless Trap Hole. Now add the monsters like D.D. Warrior Lady, Exiled Forces, Snipe Hunter, Grand Mole and you get a 1-for1-tradefest that would be neverending. That's why pretty much all spells and monsters I listed were limited to one at this point. To Mirage of Nightmare, I think it might be even better today, just think of all the hand traps you could draw into! Empty you hand, get 4 chances for a handtrap! Also imagine Tearlaments with this card.

[@WorldOfNothin]

Also, Fissure never felt good when you double tribute a big monster and then your opponent uses Fissure. Since you only have the one monster, it's just gone. It was strong, but balance as it wasn't just play this card and win. When used effectively it was great 1-for-1, plus sometimes it was just good to deal with a high defense, low attack monsters.

[@Sinzari]

Magic Cylinder is like a 2 mana "Freeze an enemy minion, deals its attack to the enemy hero." That would honestly have been pretty nuts in Freeze Mage in old Hearthstone, which is what Burn decks in Yugioh were. Burn decks were all about stopping opponent attacks and doing face damage.

[@Terradragoon]

I think a better analogy would be a secret with an activation requirement of enemy attack that says "freeze the enemy minion with the highest mana cost. Deal its attack to the enemy hero". Making it a spell takes away the reactive nature (honestly making it a better card since you can choose when and what to activate it against with no enemy input required). I know secret costs are tied to the class from other collabs, but I'm not sure if any of them would find it useful because I'm not sure what those costs are.

[@Sinzari]

@Terradragoon I was thinking of it being a secret but I think the degree of control Magic Cylinder has is more just like a regular spell. You don't have to use it ever if you don't want to.

[@AquaStockYT]

19:12 for the inquiring players of other TCGs, the following are the added types - Psychic - Wyrm - Cyberse With - Illusionist On the way too

[@sapphiredraggytheflygon8521]

Sir, we’ve HAD Illusions for like most of the year

[@vgmaster02]

Illusion has been a thing for over a year now, where have you been living? Illusion was introduced last year in DUNE. We're a year and a half into Illusion being a thing.

[@HazeEmry]

Tbf, Illusion has like, 2 decks rn iirc. Not even Wyrm was this slow with new cards.

[@ThierryVanRaaij]

I just reached master tier 2 on Master Duel with Lava Golem being my top pull for breaking boards currently. In todays meta it is extremely strong for some decks to just instantly destroy boards no matter what. Its tributing cost allows you to dodge several omni negates and remove TWO major threats. I run it in my pai dragon deck which is kinda wonky cause i dont spend money on the game. I absolutely love it.

[@MrDeflador]

The only Problem with Lava golem is, there are better alternates. Like the kaijus or sphere Mode.

[@ThierryVanRaaij]

@@MrDeflador i personally prefer lava golem over the kaijus bc 2 for 1 but sphere mode would normally be indeed better except for the steal cards i run in the deck which just guarantee an otk by that point.

[@ryanager8029]

There was also a ruling nightmare with Drop Off, people would basically Shark by waiting til your opponent shuffled the card they drew into the hand before they flipped it, making it so you basically had to call a judge every time it got flipped.

[@fosterdawson7339]

55:20 im not sure why this cards banned... Set up your endboard, activate this, draw into more potential handtraps

[@wally4golly]

Not to mention fill your grave. Don’t know what he was on about here.

[@GodzillaFreak]

That's not better than boarding a floodgate

[@Slenderman3222]

That's so bad though. Just an unsearchable winmore card, with no going second application

[@unaffectedbycardeffects9152]

​@@GodzillaFreakSo you are telling me that sometimes unbanned cards are more powerful than banned cards. A wonderful discovery (konami can't do their goddamn job). But also that doesn't mean you should unban the banned one. It's more of an argument to ban the one that's legal.

[@GodzillaFreak]

@@unaffectedbycardeffects9152 All the time they are, there are many banned cards which are there because of inertia rather than present power level. Yata and time seal were banned until just a few years ago, they were unplayable garbage indistinguishable from pack filler by 2012 at the very latest. We have fewer and fewer of them as time goes on, but we still have serveral irrelevant cards on the banlist, some much worse than mirage as well.

[@vitordarksider]

For Book of Moon, flipping a card face down is vwry similar to turning a minion dormant in HS, as in the minion can't really interact with anything.

[@g_vo]

Great analogy!

[@thewerdna]

Another parallel would be silence. Since it is ending any ongoing effects, but wouldn't stop effects that already triggered.

[@emred4653]

I absolutely did the "magic cynclnder to opponent's magic cycnlender" thing when dueling network was a tihng

[@matasa7463]

I did it with a legal card - Barrel Behind the Door. I usually used it on Ring of Destruction Procs, but have done it with Just Desserts, Magic Cylinder, and sometimes even Dice Jar.

[@LaughingThesaurus]

Rarran was SO MtG brained when he was looking at Mirage of Nightmare, holy crap

[@bncghdlur76i]

Absolutely, CGB would be proud

[@Z-one1000]

Asura Priest was also great for mowing through recruiter type monsters as well, denying the opponent the board presence advantage that those types of monsters would normally grant them.

[@thepieguyinthesky2363]

Cimo : One for one removal was limited early in YuGiOh's history Raran : Tribe Infecting Virus doesn't look too good to me, you can activate it whenever you want? Nah... Unlimited.

[@xxFortunadoxx]

I mean, Parshath was a good card, no question, but Cimo is making it out like it's absolutely amazing. It was a fairly popular card back in 2005 during those tournaments, but fell off quite quickly because of the statline and the fact that it was often crashing into a Spy and not really netting you a card for it. Now it sees virtually no play in modern goat format simply because it's way too situational and isn't a guaranteed return on investment. I think the only deck that reliably plays it is Reasoning/Gate because it's a 5 star which nobody guesses. I remember the card fondly because it was the first ultra rare that I pulled from a pack.

[@Agent_Chieftain]

I'd say it's pretty easy to forget all the other types in yugioh, because some have just had so much more support over the years. Generally speaking, I think the top 5 types in yugioh have traditionally been Dragon, Warrior, Fiend, Spellcaster and Machine.

[@CJthehobbyist]

And beast would be 6

[@gamezoid1234]

> What did I do to you? You didn't invite him to liar's bar!

[@amethonys2798]

Mirage of Nightmare is more broken by modern standards than classic standards. Far more cards don't care about being discarded even if you turbo whiff, but more often than not if you are playing like SE or whatever and you draw 4 cards you probably just drew 2 handtraps that are actually usable on the opponent's turn. Also, a lot of decks just have access to just an in engine quick effect removal that if they don't need for the opponent's board can just get rid of mirage to avoid the discard.

[@sendouvincent8232]

Imagine Mirage of Nightmares in Tearlaments format...oof...

[@amethonys2798]

@@sendouvincent8232 I would say imagine Dark World, but that deck has basically infinite value you are never drawing cards off Mirage anyway.

[@sendouvincent8232]

@@amethonys2798 yes but think about how convoluted the tearlaments era already was. When you have ishizu cards and stuff. Now, place Mirage of Nightmares in that mess... it will become an extra layer as you not only did your combo on first turn. You can get at least a few handtraps on your opponent's standby phase, and in your standby phase a lot of things will be happening together. Maining Droll and Lock Bird and Ghost Belle/Ghost Ogre would become mandatory

[@Slenderman3222]

Mirage of nightmare is the worst card on the banlist. It can get unbanned today and not a single deck will play it

[@ibra8096]

@@Slenderman3222 Delusional. Every deck would play it. Going first it's literally 4 card maxx c with zero special summons.

[@4roryvt]

@Rarran Think of Tribe Infecting Virus this way- you could discard a Fissure from hand to spot remove an opponents monster, so WORST CASE it gets that same value so long as the card you discard is weaker than Fissure, and can target the most problematic type- if it's another Aqua that sucks yeah (that's pretty rare though). If you can hit two targets that's great. If you can toss a card you can activate from graveyard that's great. Hell, its telegraphed but you can activate the effect *when your opponent summons a monster you don't like*

[@TinyZu]

With all that said, I still don't understand why this card in particular was such a big deal back then. For all intents and purpose, it translated to 1600 face damage while the card advantage remained neutral because it couldn't beat over anything besides "Deathrattle" tutors (Mystic Tomato etc.), which is ironic because you'd rather destroy them with its effect anyway. Idk. Maybe I was never giga rekt by it because I never went all in with face-up type-centric strategies. But, again, even if you did, you also had to play around Mirror Force and Torrential Tribute anyway, so over-extending was generally a bad idea back then. I suppose that might be the true reason why this got banned at some point; for reasons similar to Fissure.

[@captaincj1085]

I think he also didn’t pick up on being able to pick which card you get to discard, since hearthstone discard effects are generally random so it’s a lot less consistent and risky to use effects like that.

[@luminous3558]

@@TinyZu It had the potential to be a full boardwipe and yugioh was very much against that at the time. The card just does a whole lot more than a lv4 was supposed to do at the time even if in praxis it was mostly going to discard to trade 1 for 1.

[@4roryvt]

@@TinyZu ABSOLUTE WORST CASE you are using it like Two Pronged Attack, best case it's Raigeki on a stick- if they are playing a Tribal deck you board wipe, discard something of YOUR CHOICE (either situationally useless, a Garnet, or something with graveyard effect), destroy their board, and establish a monster. Also Torrential Tribute was REACTIVE not proactive- you had to set it, and an opponent needed to summon into it. Fissure is a 1 for 1 that doesn't give you the choice of target. Virus is play, and if they don't have an answer on summon, ignition effect take their most problematic face up monster(s), and 1600 isn't a beatstick, but it's on the high end for 4 stars with powerful effects, so there's a moderate chance they actually DON'T get over it, and if they have multiple types on field, you dump multiple cards to spot remove as needed right? Discarding isn't GREAT but since you get to choose what you dump, you can keep the pieces you need, and 1 for 1 the rest, WORST CASE. It's a menace. Then if you can protect it, you can nuke anything they summon again next turn. That it didn't cause you problems says more about your opponents than the card's power.

[@TinyZu]

@@4roryvt Hey, thanks for the rundown. Good sense of humor, calling out the infamous two pronged attack like that. I'm not sure I'm following your logic when it comes to protecting it though. Considering the staple traps at the time were mostly 1 for 1 destruction, there'd be nothing left anyway. Then again, people were unironically running swords of revealing light and such (which I never really understood either), so there's that. I suppose it would also disincentivize call of the haunted because you could choose to stop attacking and then pop the big guy they just resurrected. And wasn't there also a big guy that you could summon from hand upon taking damage? Anyway, it's all neither here nor there. If anything it makes me appreciate how the game has changed over time.

[@chimmyinfernape9189]

Fun fact drop off got limited because there was a stupid thing you could do. If your opponent hand shuffled you’d wait until they did that activate the card it’s still draw phase and because you can’t tell what card was the one drawn the game state was irepairable and such the player got a game loss for just drawing.

[@robertdascoli949]

51:40" I would love to answer your question, but you're too dumb to form a coherent sentence. " I award you zero points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[@ShayTheValiant]

I thought the card you combo'd Mirage of Nightmares with was Emergency Provisions. Send Mirage to the Graveyard after drawing your cards and gain 1000 Life Points.

[@ThatOneWeirdFlex]

Or MST. After MST got limited, they played EP just as an additional way to get rid of it.

[@ShayTheValiant]

@@ThatOneWeirdFlex I'm pretty sure in the anime, Mirage of Nightmares was ALWAYS paired with Emergency Provisions, never anything else.

[@ibra8096]

@@ShayTheValiant Yea but in real life people used MST and other shit to kill it

[@michaelmoore8284]

Indeed Provisions was the main combo piece leading up to & at the time of Mirage’s banning, due to MST’s limiting. That format was likely the most-relevant life gain has ever been, as far as I’m aware. Goblin Housekeeping also combo’d with Provisions which resulted in a semi-limit to both cards, if I’m rembering right.

[@DuskoftheTwilight]

In the GX Anime, Jaiden commonly used Emergency Provisions with it, and that specific combo did see play in the real world. However, MST is a more generic card you could combo it with, since you could use MST to destroy your Nightmare, or you could use MST to pop opponent's stuff, wheras Emergency Provisions was a much more narrow use case that you were pretty much only including to combo with Nightmare.

[@monopoman]

If every single card in Hearthstone cost no mana crystals you can bet card draw in that game would be absurdly broken also.

[@Kuribonker]

Cimo what do you mean by not sure why mirage of nightmare still banned? You draw 4 on your opponent turn that like 99% of drawing into a handtrap

[@jediroshi]

I mean when I was a local player. I took great pride and joy at using Book of Moon to flip down a Jinzo back in GOAT format and then using Nightmare wheel to lock Jinzo in place with a Trap.

[@Scottistic]

Raran casually describing Overkill in hearthstone and saying it would be played

[@fuuryuuSKK]

You are correct in that Face-Down cards are a sporadic mechanic in MtG. They are by default 2/2 colorless creatures with no other characteristics, but certain effects can give them other abilities. Morph, which was the initial mechanic, allowed you to cast a (typically more expensive) monster for {3}, and then at a later point flip the creature by paying their morph cost, with some creatures having effectively Flip effects. Megamorph is the same but on flip it adds a +1/+1. Disguise also is Morph, but the face-down creature has Ward 2. Ward means that, if an opponent's ability or spell targets the creature, it gets countered unless they pay 2 mana, which often means it's effectively hexproof. Manifest is an ability that (usually) takes your topdeck and turns it into a 2/2, and allows you to flip it if it was a creature. Manifest dread is similar, but you get to pick one of the two top cards, and discard the other (typically fueling your GY). Cloak is like manifest, but like Disguise also gives the card Ward 2.

[@jaeusa160]

@9:15 Fissure in classic Hearthstone would be most like Deadly Shot. Isolate the big thing by combat, "randomly" kill the 1 thing.

[@JackVolt]

Regarding Fissure, I do feel there was too much generic removal during that period. It often felt like the loser was whichever player ran out of removal spells first. Fissure, as arguably the best 1 for 1 removal at the time, definitely earned the limit IMO. I think "deck diversity" is a perfectly valid reason to limit cards (Maxx C 90% play rate lmao)

[@quentincorradi5646]

Yeah, there was almost no point in making a tribute summon when it was going to get removed the turn after. Assuming it was not already by a trap card or the set monster you attacked into.

[@PsychicWars]

Wasn't Fissure in like all of the early pre-cons too?

[@hi-i-am-atan]

it's also worth remembering that the comparable 1-for-1 removal was stuff like sakuretsu, d prison, and bottomless - all _trap cards_ that have specific triggers that your opponent can play around, with bottomless also not being able to catch any smaller monsters your opponent might be running. fissure and smashing ground are fully proactive spot removal, and while their automatic targeting allows a degree of playing around 'em, it's usually fairly easy to play around said counterplay and get 'em to hit exactly what you want them to. overall they're very sensible hits, especially considering ygo at the time was struggling to get people to play cool boss monsters that weren't game-warping, since ... it was all too easily to pool all your resources into your awesome rad ace card, only for it to immediately fall into a fissure when you pass turn

[@Jobbaz]

Fissure is good but not even close to be the best 141 removal. Smashing Ground power crept it to the point, since the latter was released, you played Fissure as somehow extra copies of Smashing. Battle traps might be less versatile, but they provide a higher ceiling overall. You don't really play anything else besides battle traps unless you really want to max out on removal in general (gadget) or you suffer specific targets (Dupe Frog, tytannial).

[@JackVolt]

@@Jobbaz The difference between Fissure and Smashing Ground does not even matter for this discussion, because both cards were limited to 1 at the same time, for what we can assume is the same reason. Spell-based removal has always been and will always be superior to trap-based removal, for the usual reasons that Spells are better than Traps.

[@Malarekk]

I feel like Magic Cylinder was limited because it, along with Ring of Destruction and Ceasefire (which were also limited) were all very splashable cards that saw plenty of play _outside_ of burn decks. Ring, Cylinder and Ceasefire doing just the bare minimum over the course of a duel (say negating + destroying just a 4 star, and using Cease with 2-4 monsters) is almost 6000 damage. Cylindering + Ringing a boss monster and using Ceasefire after a big summon from Cyber Jar could easily exceed 8000LP. All 3 were so powerful _everybody_ used them. If they weren't limited, Burn would've been S-tier all the way through Chaos.

[@brownjenkin1228]

I don't play either games, but these videos are literally my favorite type of content of KZbin. Keep it up guys!!

[@alexanderfisher7261]

Pre nerf innervate was in every druid deck

[@FredFlexDK]

26:35 well effectively and purposely face-down defense position, is essentially "Make a creature go dormant until your opponents next turn" if they choose to flip it of course

[@filipvadas7602]

57:40 There is also *Eye for an Eye* , a Paladin secret which , while it doesn't negate the attack, basically does the same damage reflection that Magic Cylinder does.

[@jesse8442]

34:21 cimo's face as he begins to process that book of moon has read right to left for 20 years

[@nhutchen1478]

Rarran sitting here thinking you'd keep MST in hand to activate on opponent's turn...when you'd just set it, you don't need weird timing shenanigans

[@FloodclawKupo]

I think I'd be good for Cimo to give a little reminder on rules text for cards like Book of Moon (you need to Set Quickplay cards before being able to use them on your opponent's turn) or Lava Golem (your OPPONENT gets the monster), but honestly outside the ban/limited judgment Rarran's analysis is pretty damn on point this episode

[@uaeoaeoeoi]

Mirage of Nightmare is also able to just be good on its own in decks like Darkworld, Shaddol, and Danger! where the discard half of the effect just gives you more advantage or triggers floating effects, or Runick where you can most likely use the cards before you have to discard them.

[@janisir4529]

I pulled out Magic Cylinder once long after what you'd consider classic Yugioh, and my opponent was so mad because he didn't expect losing to it

[@johnryanjosey6368]

A few things: dimension wall can be activated when the opponent attacks, not just attacks directly. Also, dimension wall changes who takes battle damage, while cylinder deals effect damage.

[@bensonprice4027]

12:41 - Truth.

[@Gaming_Groove]

Fissure was hit to weaken 9th Gadget in 2007, a 45 card deck that ran 9 gadgets and every piece of 1-for-1 removal available, which became popular after the release of the Machine Re-Volt Structure deck. It was extremely cheap to build and pretty consistent, with the 45 cards limiting the chance of opening two or more gadgets, and the excessive removal allowing you to maintain oppressive card advantage by removing your opponent's threats and getting +1 off your gadgets. Due to its low cost, it was the best thing you could be doing for under $100, so it was everywhere.

[@McBehrer]

ooh, Lava Golem. I had that card, and thought it was really cool

[@XcaptainXobliviousX]

i ran three in my mongrel low level deck. people would get so mad on dueling nexus back in the day

[@Isthatthegrimreaper170]

I’ve gotten lava golem’d in every world championship game and every time I internally flipped the table

[@SparkytehUnicorn]

I had two copies of Fissure and a Butterfly Dagger Elma in my playground deck for years, had no idea it was illegal.

[@johnowlgem9264]

cimoooooooo on magic cylinder "no one plays this card anymore" says the guy who plays it in master duel masochist

[@Ariovisti]

I think what Rarran's HS brain missed with Tribe Infecting Virus is that it doesn't say "discard a random card" - there are so many cards you want in the GY that that cost is practically a benefit more than half the time.

[@captaincj1085]

I know CGB has figured out that the GY is a “second hand”, I wonder if Rarran has figured that out yet.

[@JesperoTV]

36:27 HE SAID THE THING!

[@ChaddyFantome]

The best part about the Mariage of Nightmare trick is it was even used by the protagonist of Yu-Gi-Oh GX anime. They KNEW!

[@neroatlas]

I think Rarran’s observation about Book of Moon being “upside down” is so brilliant xD I don’t think I ever noticed either!

[@legeul]

Fun fact, the Mirage of Nightmares + MST combo was used in the anime.

[@ibra8096]

I thought it was always Provisions

[@legeul]

@@ibra8096 It's been a while since i watched GX, it's possible it was Provision that Jaden used, but the point is the combo of destroying mirage of nightmare before you have to discard was shown in the anime.

[@Parkjoonho18]

I know this is before i can physically have finished watching the video. But i have to comment a good thing about this. I really like the quick introduction, and i appreciate this is not just a stream (or at lease hidden really well) compare to just streaming it and posting it as a new video. I really like that :)))

[@rexamillion8446]

12:47 Can confirm I love watch yall mess with each other. It's really this whole cycle of getting together and talking about our favorites games together just feels so good .... (honestly feels better than atually playing Yugioh)

[@MrRigamorris]

If I recall correctly, they limited fissure because the format was so heavy on 1-for-1s that most games were pushing into top decking wars. This was a limit to push diversity and more “skillful” gameplay.

[@Schied]

The nuts combo back in the day with Mirage was to play it when you could empty your hand, pass to your opponent, draw 4. Then before your opponent ended their turn, activate imperial order to deny the discard effect when it swings back to your turn. Then during your turn you activate call of the haunted on a jinzo in the gy and empty your hand again. With Jinzo out, imperial order gets negated which reactivates mirage. Then on your opponent's next turn you draw 4 more. I had a few games go that way back in the day and the 8 card swing just ended it for my opponents lol.

[@zami001001]

One of my friends growing up used both lava golem and nightmare wheel to create a miserable combo of me loosing 1500 LP a turn and stopping me from benefiting from the big creature, that combo happened more often than it had any right to haha

[@KrakenWall]

52:20 Rarran is forgetting you can set cards, not play from hand (like an instant in magic)

[@Begeru]

It seems like he forgot many of the basic rules of Yugioh. He was thinking of MtG mechanics.

[@esrohm6460]

you know what would be funny. give ranchy branchy a card tell em it has an errata and he needs to figure out what that errate could possibly be

[@carxiong6744]

You can cylinder your opponent cylinder. That card is called Barrel Behind the Door. Its a counter trap that will return any burn/effect damage your opponent would do to you back to them.

[@AsafB1992]

Cimo gave Rarran such a good advise last episode on thos stuff, "allways think worst case scenario", if rarran did that he will immediately know Mirrage just reads "Draw 4 next turn".

[@CatGuy969]

26:20 So the funny thing about this, Tribe infection virus is actually the ONE card that wouldn't be able to resolve it's effect, if Book of Moon'd. What many people don't realize, the effect that destroys is a NEW SENTENCE, a FLOODGATE/Continuous type effect, meaning ANY TIME the Type of monster that was called by Tribe is summoned, its INSTANTLY destroyed, as long as Tribe is face up. So it needs to stay up on the field for it to destroy, and bein face down, obviously it's continuous effect does NOT work.

[@DenkiRay]

Between how bad he reads names and how hard reading is for him, sometimes I wonder if Rarran has some kind of mental damage. And I'm saying that seriously, because damn...

[@svetlanathehammer1984]

I love this series cause it reminds me of when I used to play competitive yugi oh before switching to magic, I traveled to national tournament's with my dad and the other kids at the local game store, I still remember the day I sold my elemental dragons(when they got limited) deck, with ultra rare maxx cs and veilers and all blinged out in order to buy my first magic deck and move to another addiction xD. Good times.

[@GunnarWahl]

As a burn fan, back in the day, Magical cylinder was also a great way to protect your solar flair dragon before you can summon a second one.

[@RomanAroundSF]

I think book of moon also had something to do with the Dark Magician. I think Yugi used it against something because it's like a spell book that went with the Dark Magician and I don't think they would ever limit a card that is one of the two biggest archetypes they have

[@MrDirt]

Rarren forgot to mention „Eye for an Eye“ (1) mane: when your hero takes damage, deal the same amount to your opponent. This didn’t see play because when your opponent suspects you to have this secret in play, they would attack with their weakest minion first, minimizing the retaliation damage. 1:01:53

[@christianrounds85]

Another important point about Fissure is that it's not TARGETED Removal, meaning that any monster with immunity to being targeted by effects will not be protected from it if it's the lowest ATK monster on the opponent's field. The only way to be immune to it is through destruction immunity or effect negation.

[@olagarto1917]

there is a paladin secret that when you take damage,deal the same amount to the oponent, and on rouge secret that changes the atack target to your face if im not mistake

[@Citizen_Nappa23]

"I never heard of a Yu-Gi-Oh monster that can attack all monsters each turn" Cleary he has never heard of Blue Eyes Tyrant Dragon

[@ryanmoore8346]

Fun fact! There is a Tribe affecting card in Hearthstone, called Waste Warden. 5 mana 3/3, battlecry: deal 3 damage to a minion and all others of that minion type. Unplayable. :)

[@Digging_Ma]

It did see a little bit of play in highlander decks (mainly priest I believe) when it was in standard, mostly to deal with cards like Glowfly Swarm and help vs Tip the Scales. Would've been way better if treant was a tribe back in the day. But yeah, it was underwhelming and is for sure unplayable by modern standards.

[@luminous3558]

Not really comparable. Tribe guaranteed kills it and would be closer to a 2drop with average stats.

[@braxtoncomix]

Aaahhhh Book of Moon, genuinely one of the goats of all cards. Seriously when’s Rarran gonna convert? 😂😂

[@loltaunt]

I wish you also showed him sphere mode; lava golem and sphere mode were the kaijus before kaijus and sphere mode feels like something really good to show after showing lava golem.

[@f5673-t1h]

Tribe-Infecting Virus was not errata'd to be weaker (just errata'd to be standardized PSCT). No once-per-turn, nothing of the sort.

[@beku8726]

I think he good confused since it got a retrain in tribe shocking virus. maybe he thought is was an errata to TIV

[@ibra8096]

@@beku8726 Man that card is so awful lol. SOPT, Banish for cost, has to be a monster, has to be correct type. May as well say "Pay 4000LP" too at this point. Truly 2011 peak garbage retrain behaviour

[@GeargianoXG]

Tribe-Infecting Virus didn't even get a PSCT errata, it was never reprinted after the Fury of the Deep Structurde Deck in 2005 (in the TCG)

[@TheQuicksilver115]

Rofl I'm laughing so hard through all this. This was definitely the worst performance out of alllll of these recent series of tcg racing crossover videos anyone 😂😂😂 I do love Rarran so I felt a little bad, but these two are just so fun together, great video yet again 😁

[@ibra8096]

Mirage of a nightmare is not slow, even by modern Yugioh standards. No real restrictions; draw 4 during THEIR standby phase after burning 4 cards turn 1, emptying your hand and drawing 4 for free (all this before they even have the chance to establish a card on the field). Also, you have a high posibility to draw into handtraps to disrupt them anywhere from 1-4 times while already having a board yourself (basically like maxx c without them having to ss 4 times). It can never be unbanned in anything close to its original state because even its drawback, if it ever has a chance to trigger, is a plus for plenty of decks as it discards for effect.

[@Bonlaws]

Thanks Cimooooo and Rarran, you did it, you made me build a Yu-Gi-Oh deck, i hope you're happy now

[@rexusiglesias_08]

It makes sense for Mirage to still be banned to this day. Ideally, you set up your board until you have no cards in hand. When you pass the turn to your opponent, you get to reload four cards, which could all be additional disruptions to stop your opponent from playing the game. Also, there are plenty of ways nowadays for you to interact with the card so that you can keep the cards you drew.

[@Nyekunn]

I remember back in highschool, I saw a couple guys playing and one guy used his Mirror Force to negate a Magic Cylinder's return damage. The guy using cylinder said that's not allowed and the other guy's excuse that it does was because that's what happened in the anime.

[@SpottedZebra]

Thought Tribe would've been easy to guess that it was at least limited after having already talked about Fissure. The effect even at its worst is pretty much "every other card in your hand is now also Fissure."

[@Val_1992]

58:00 maybe partially, as it didn't negate your damage, but Eye for an Eye deals damage to your opponent equal to damage dealt to you. But it worked with spells as well, so maybe more differences than similarities...

[@sumin9879]

Mirage of knightmare could not be unbanned today in the slightest, it would be sided for going first in every deck. It lets you draw 4 cards which means about 2 handtraps after youve cycled your deck for your engine turn 1 adding 2 extra disruptions to your end board for 1 card and discarding doesnt matter because youve already used your ht's. This isnt even considering using cards like varudras to pop it before having to discard which can be done consistently as part of any yubel endboard

[@ibra8096]

And on top of that even if it is ashed you don't care because you just blanked a mysterious card out of 6 that could have been a starter.

[@ohaiguy6905]

Man, if there was ever a #1 fan of lava golem, I am that guy. I've got the magic cylinder, dimension wall, volcanic counters, the whole shebang. Love that card. I'm glad it was immediately obvious how good it is XD

[@liviousgameplay1755]

I think Rarran brought up a good point about book of moon being limited, "don't you want your cards to be versatile in a game like YGO?" I think the idea is that some cards get limited so that you only have to play around it once and get a different mind game for each card. You had to play around THE torrential, THE book, and THE Heavy Storm. I don't have actual historical experience (didn't exist rip), but when playing historical formats that's the vibe I get and it's my favorite part about them, that most power cards have an "aura" because it's the only copy.

[@raymondvanderbunt6402]

Mirage of Nightmare can be disposed of with a monster's S/T destruction, MST, Heavy Storm, Twister, Dust Tornado, Emergency Provisions or Twin Twisters. The modern outs to this card make it so easy to abuse. Combine all of the outs with MoN's draw 4 cards effect, and if it were ever unbanned the combos would simply be absurd.

[@MrYubel54]

Isn't book of moon based on the book of the dead from ancient Egypt? So since scribes wrote right to left in column that would explain the 'reverted' book

[@g_vo]

Hearthstone has magic cylinder in a way that doesn’t negate the attack… “Eye for an eye” and “Vengeful Visage” both deal the attacking monsters damage back at the enemy, with the latter summoning a copy of it for yourself.

[@iryanmadayana1904]

Lava Golem is still one of my favourite cards. One delightful oldschool combo: Lava Golem the opponent's stuff, then discard a MARIONETTE MITE to temporarily take that golem back and punch them in the face for 3000! Then you give it back and they take the 1000!

[@Salacavalini]

You should've tapped into Rarran's Master Duel PTSD and said "Imagine you draw Maxx C in your opponent's standby phase". Not that hand traps would've been a thing back when Mirage of Nightmare was legal, but it's a great illustration for why it can never come back.

[@monomanamaniac]

I loved lava golem. I had a ritual deck that was pretty comfortable with giving it to my opponents and I did have the cylinder backup