Heat Pump Water Heaters are expensive junk. Or are they?

[@BartmanMi]

Update June 2024. If you don't believe me, check this out: justthenews.com/politics-policy/energy/biden-administration-mandating-heat-pump-water-heaters-contractors-report

[@MikeSiemens88]

A single news article from a source unknown to me relating the experience of a contractor. Mine is still working fine, no issues. I have no regrets. Installed it myself, no contractor. Heat pump tech has been around for quite some time in many applications besides these hybrid hot water heaters. Not rocket science & yes things can go wrong.

[@adrenalinejunky789]

Had my heat pump water heater for a year and love it! Our old electric used way to much electricity. Its nice to be able to use as much as I want now without a problem

[@BartmanMi]

Thanks for sharing!

[@randyhalm3499]

Our heat pump water heater is 14 years old and still works as good as new. The power consumption is 1/3 of a standard electric water heater. Our total I itial investment was $1200 with rebates. I installed it so labor was free. Our break even point was five years so every month we are saving on electric bill. When this one dies we will purchase another one.

[@BartmanMi]

Thanks for sharing!

[@JohnLee-db9zt]

What brand and model do you have?

[@thenexthobby]

I can see running a Marathon at night with low rates and emptying the tank during the day. It's similar to how heat pumps can take all night to heat the tank if not using back up heat. Using a tankless electric could work if your panel can handle the extra circuits.

[@tigertom53]

I also made hybrid heater so I could quickly install the unit and replace it if something goes wrong. Plus the added benefits of cooling and dehumidifiy the space.

[@TofuInc]

Heat pump water heaters make more sense the farther south you go. Where I'm at I would only be able to run it in heat pump mode 4 months out of the year without it over cooling the space enough where the hvac would have to run. That alone significantly reduces the payback period. The failure rate on HPWH in general is much higher that the Marathon water heaters. With the Rheem Marathon the failures are generally isolated to leaks in the tank that occur within the first couple years. They are really good about sending out a new one, however they leave you the old one to dispose of, so there's that. I think you really just have to assess your situation to see which one fits your use case. It's interesting the see different peoples opinions on why they choose one over the other. A few tricks to get a little more value out of the Marathon. They are one of the few residential tanks rated for 180°F, so during excess solar or low tou cost you can run that temp up all the way to 180°. Just add a tempering valve set at 120° or whatever your desired temp is. This nets you more thermal storage, effectively a "larger" water heater. You can also wire these for simultaneous operation so each element can run at the same time. Which nets you a faster recovery time. On top of this you can wire the top element to be powered 24/7 and set at say 120° to ensure hot water is always available, then set the bottom element to 180° and put it on a timer so it takes advantage of the low cost electricity. If you want to go a step further swap out the top element from the 4500 watt element to say a 1500 watt. This allows the upper element to run longer pulling less current which can better take advantage of the solar production without pulling excess from the grid while keeping some water hot in the top of the tank. Even swapping to a 1500 watt top element with it being wired for simultaneous operation you still effectively have a 6000 watt water heater vs the factory 4500 watt. The hybrid water heaters don't take kindly to any changes like this since they like to throw errors and kick off. If you can't do it in the app or on the control panel you're are SOL.

[@BartmanMi]

Wow, these are great suggestions!! I'm all for electrifying everything and you clearly underscore the alternatives to heat pump water heaters. It sometimes seems like the "green movement" wants to push a single solution (HPWS's) on us and disqualify everything else. There are green home rating certifications that ignore anything but heat pump water heaters (which is very narrow sided). Same with rebates for energy efficient solutions. Thank you!

[@TofuInc]

@@BartmanMi I think a lot of time people get hung up on the efficiency of equipment and tend to overestimate or even neglect to take into account the longevity of new technology.

[@Freedom-2024-2u]

Gosh, Mr. Bartman, I see videos of the plumbing leaking badly up top on the Marathon. I sincerely hope you don't have that issue. I wish this was not a potential issue since I want one really bad. I currently have a SunEarth Solar tank that finally rusted out on the exterior after 12 years due to a leaky anode rod up top that I replaced years ago. I did not know how tight to bolt it down and it leaked over time. A plumber told me to tighten the crap out of it next time This is why I wanted the Marathon so bad, but now, I worry about the plumbing connections up top. It potentially could have been a bad install issue but I worry non the less. Thank you for a great write-up and good luck with it.

[@BartmanMi]

I'm sure you'll find people having problems with any tank. My advice: Have it installed by a professional plumber. Could be that diy folks overheat the connections when installing. My plumber has no problems with this tank and installed many. These are sold for decades. Lastly, it's always good to invest in leak detection. I have a Yolink leak detector (you'll find videos online). It will shut off the water main valve if it detects a leak. Very affordable and you're not dependent on wifi. Let your plumber install the valve controller on the main water line when he puts the tank in... Good luck! Seems like you're weighing your options.

[@MikeSiemens88]

Hadn't heard of plastic tanks up 'til this video, thanks for making me aware! At this point it's moot as I opted for a hybrid in late August after my natural gas tank developed a leak. Initially I was looking at on demand natural gas as my parents had purchased one years ago on my advice. They really liked it. I was 1st made aware of the hybrid units in researching a replacement. The plastic tank somehow flew under my radar. Either way, the local Home Hardware have neither in stock. Both are special order which I find strange given the advantages over standard electric tanks. I read the reviews about noise of the heat pump & the difficulty in replacing the anode rod. I've found my unit (50 gallon Rheem) to be quiet & being in the basement I don't hear it at all. My fridge makes more noise in the kitchen. I took a look at the anode rod from the top as well & it appears that they've made access for replacement better on my particular model than what I've seen in critical reviews. Shouldn't have to cut away plastic flanging to get a socket on there lol. Given the higher cost of the hybrid I left no stone unturned in researching before pulling the trigger. I was somewhat consoled by the fact that on demand gas heaters were costly as well. I live in the interior of British Columbia with weather that includes 4 distinct seasons. It can be very hot in summer & cold in winter. The tank is in an unfinished room of the basement so the effect of the heat pump on ambient conditions down there is minor. I do plan on ducting eventually, but the amount of time the heat pump runs to serve my 1 person household is short. The onerous carbon tax imposed on fossil fuels by our Federal Government made switching to electric from natural gas a no brainer. They're set to triple this tax with little regard for us mere mortals needing to heat our water & homes. I love the ability to set a precise temperature remotely with the app or the digital control on the tank. The app includes scheduling as well as monitoring energy use. I don't see that option on the plastic tank where you've had to install a separate timer. Adjusting the temperature seems like a finicky procedure on the plastic tank. While the plastic option works for you I don't regret going with the hybrid unit. Not having an anode rod may or may not be an advantage. Plastic may not rust, but depending on water quality, deposits can build up on the inside regardless of material. Then there's the recycling issue & the rising concern on plastic products' environmental impact in general. Time will tell.

[@MikeSiemens88]

@@BartmanMi Of course, but who actually does that? Guilty as charged me. I never flushed my natural gas tank. Tried to change out the anode once but it was seized in there good. When I finally trashed that tank & got the anode out there wasn't much left.

[@blahco4tt]

How is adjusting the temp on a plastic tank finicky?

[@MikeSiemens88]

@@blahco4tt Look up the user manual for the Rheem Marathon 50 gallon plastic hot water heater. The adjustment is behind an access panel on the tank. Furthermore, it likely has 2 thermostats, one for each heating element which have to be adjusted separately. On my old natural gas heater there was a single temperature dial on the gas regulator, super simple & easy to access. Same idea on my hybrid heat pump electric unit. I can walk up to the control panel & quickly dial in the temperature manually or use the phone app remotely to adjust. So on the plastic unit ever time I wish to turn it down to save electricity I need to fiddle with 2 controls hidden behind panels. Here's the procedure: If adjustment is necessary… 1. Turn off the power to the water heater. ! DANGER: Make certain power to the water heater is "OFF" before removing any jacket access panel for any reason. Failure to do so could result in property damage, bodily injury, or death. 2. Remove the snap-in access panel cover. Insert finger into latch hole on the bottom of the cover and push up to release the latch. Pull forward and remove the cover and insulation. 3. Remove the (4) screws that secure the jacket access panel to the unit. Remove the jacket access panel and insulation exposing the thermostats. Use care when removing insulation pads. 4. The thermostat protective cover should not be removed. 5. Using a small screwdriver, set the thermostat dial pointer to the desired temperature by turning the screw. DO NOT pry or move the white plastic pointer. 6. Replace the rectangular insulation and thermostat access panel. Secure the panel to the unit using the (4) screws provided. Tighten the screws until only snug. 7. Replace the access panel cover and insulation and snap in position. 8.Turn on the power to the water heater ....seems finicky to me....tedious in fact ;)

[@littleberry454]

I am installing one on the 11th a rheem 65 gallon heat pump water heater. I am in SC will be putting it in garage and will be face if the cool air output towards our Tesla wall. It was a tough decision from the marathon to the heat pump. I decided with the heat pump and will only run during the day with solar, and keep temp at 150. I will have a thermostatic mixer reducing heat to 120 which will increase my water production. I will let you know in a few months how it goes . You let us know how the Marathon works.

[@safffff1000]

For heat pump one use an electric 20 yr anode. Put in a filter before intake air. Can also set timer to be off while sleeping or other times to get rid of noise. Biggest fault I could see with Heat Pump is dirt gets by factory filter to clog up the condenser

[@BartmanMi]

Sorry for the late response: great suggestions. Thanks!

[@G4825]

I purchased a GE GeoSpring Heat Pump water heater back in 2016 and it started throwing fault codes 6 months after the extended 5 yr service warranty ended. Bradford now covers these as GE no longer sells this type of heat pump water heater. I just replaced the fan and Bradford sent the part for free (10 years parts) but, again labor is NOT included. Literally 1 month later it throws a FF code and stops working again. Now it looks more serious and unfortunately nobody works on them. My HVAC guy sniffed it looking for a leak, but couldn't find it and he said the evaporator coil looked very rusty (this is located in a clean conditioned space) and said unfortunately they don't work on water heaters. I called over a dozen hot water heaters service companies and plumbers in around Atlanta and no luck and Bradford doesn't have a support/ service list. So looks like this is now going to be a standard electric heater until that stops working. Highly recommend not buying one of these heat pump water heaters and just buy a Rheem Marathon.

[@BartmanMi]

Hi George, I'm sorry this is happening. I believe in the potential of heat pump water heaters. I also believe the current products are not market ready. I've seen better products in Europe, but also at a higher sale point. An example is Stiebel Eltron (a German manufacturer) whose models are not available on the North American market (I believe they sell one model here locally, but few installers are familiar with them). Good luck, a regular resistance heater can make a lot of sense!

[@dreednlb]

I've had my GeoSpring since 2016 also. Zero issues with it. Changed the anode twice and cleaned the filter a few times.

[@BartmanMi]

@@dreednlb Thanks, I'm glad it works out well. Kudos for changing the anode rod!

[@redbaron6805]

Have had two Geospring water heater, first the early Grey/Blue version, and then when I moved in 2014, a Geospring with the Red/Grey top. Both worked flawlessly and the 2014 heater is still working flawlessly in 2023...

[@tigertom53]

Went with the heat pump from expensive oil furance water heater. My state paid half the cost of the unit so it was only 900 plus a few hundred in parts. Would of been cheaper if didn't have to run electrical or had a electric heater and plumbing there before. But still about 1200 for hybrid heater installed it $2000 professional. This was a no brainier from what i was coming from $10 month for hybrid or $200 for oil water heater..

[@22phan]

Tank heaters, top load washers last 20-30 years on low setting and can enhanced to 90‰ efficiency. 15 years on high setting. These new HE heaters and washers last 5-10 years. HE appliance end up costing more repairs and durability due more moving parts.

[@frednurks8528]

I great video based on sound personal research. Complexity, noise for your neighbor and expense. Pay back longer than solar panels are all a turn off. Adding solar heating to what ever water heater you have will produce better results. I’m expecting all the installers of these systems to violently disagree.

[@BartmanMi]

Fred, thanks for your reply. Appreciated!

[@catparka7698]

My specific criticism - nothing wrong with my reading age or comprehension, but the pages flip far too fast for comfortable assimilation. People need the time to scan, plus processing time - I reached the end and could recall very little.

[@catparka7698]

@@BartmanMi True... except for the dulled screen and the big 'Play' icon in the middle. Nevertheless, I appreciated the video and the argument it presented... even if I did miss a little here and there. So thanks - good work.

[@TheAlamar9332]

After pausing touch the screen again away from the middle and the buttons disappear and the screen goes back bright again.

[@tinman1955]

First time I've heard of a plastic water heater. What type of plastic? Any concerns about taste or odor or leaching chemicals?

[@MikeSiemens88]

@@BartmanMi "These tanks have been around for decades ". Interesting. I find myself wondering why everyone hasn't switched to plastic tanks then, or why I've never seen one in stock at any of the major hardware centres? Then again, same goes for the hybrids, few if any in stock locally. On demand heaters only appearing within the last 5 years. Maybe 'cause I live in the technological backwaters of the great white north lol. Beautiful British Columbia or BC or Bring Cash!

[@Alphasig336]

@@BartmanMi if your concerned about this then you shouldn’t drink any water. It all contains PFAS chemicals that never go away.