Heat Pumps vs. Electric Hot Water Debate

[@Yorick_Mark]

Great video. Got rid of my instantaneous gas hot water system and installed a heat pump. Now running it 100% of PV and batteries. Also no more running out mid-shower to change over the bottle when it runs empty.

[@mcelectrical]

Awesom! Getting rid of instant gas is a big win in anybody’s books. Nice move!

[@karlajensen100]

bottles about the most expensive form of Hot water heating, emissions disaster too as have to truck them around

[@gregogrady4962]

@@mcelectrical - Our South Australian Government has got no plans in getting rid of gas as a domestic fuel. Our Premier only said last week that "South Australia will not follow Victoria's lead". This is the level of stupidity and pig-headedness (and basically, corruption) that we're dealing with over here.

[@simonh6788]

Installed an Istore in parents in laws place in Nundle, which regularly gets frosts. The local electrician said it wouldn’t work. After a year and a very cold winter it’s worked faultlessly. The lesson I’ve learned is that often local trades don’t want to try something they havnt worked with before. We have had Sanden heatpump hot water split systems in tenterfield for 10 years now and they work well in our very cold climate.

[@mcelectrical]

That’s a great story for old tradies like me. It’s pretty hard to switch mentally. I appreciate you sharing, Mark.

[@simonh6788]

@@mcelectrical understand. We all work with what we know and trust. Love how you are using your channel to be challenged and introduce new ideas. Do agree that fronius and BYD is the best thing. Just installed a 30kwh battery with a new Gen24 to augment our system.

[@karlajensen100]

dang! thats a lot of storage. @@simonh6788 i cant make the economics work anytime other than peak time and using that much during peak time seems impossible, curious as to your use case

[@Xonikz]

In the US here. I have a 50gal heat pump water heater. For our household it works fine, venting the "cold" air into a basement cold storage room. The hardest part about the design of my installed unit is replacing the sacrificial anode, which I should be doing this year to keep up with the hard water buildup from our well. Everything else has worked well for 4 yrs so far. Uses about a tenth of the amount of power we were using on the old electric resistance watertank.

[@karlajensen100]

glad to hear its working well - note that heat pump evaporators need to run below the surrounding air temp to be able to harvest heat from the air - the magic number is 7 degrees, below that the efficiency of the heatpump drops considerably. guessing the old system had a leak or was poorly insulated and new one much better. Poorly insulated pipes can increase the standing losses significantly.

[@freddozer1399]

"venting the "cold" air into a basement cold storage room" ? Not that easy IMO. The heat pump needs to replace that air. So forget about a "cold storage room" Why ? because the entire basement will become cold storage or will need to be heated. The heat from your basement is going into the hot water system. The discharged air from the unit will be 20 to 30 degrees F lower than the basement temperature. Depending on hot much hot water you need, will determine the temperature of your basement. Thes units will only be perfected IMO when they can use, 100% outside air , like a 99% gas furnace, using a piece of 4"pvc pipe, for outside air intake, and exhaust. A mini-split heat pump can produce usable heat at -20F on most new units. That is when I'll buy one, otherwise I am not willing to heat or freeze my basement. BTW, I am glad, you are happy with yours. This is IMO.

[@cranbers]

have you looked into water softener and a whole home water filter? The funny thing is those fridge water filters that are 5 inches long by 3 inches wide cost 50 dollars and its 200 gallons. Our whole house water filter a few hundred for the unit, and it does 50k gallons. With replacement filters around 110 dollars a piece. its amazing how much savings there is for those who look for it.

[@jasonsharpbucks]

they can be vented to outside and use outside intake air, the guidelines are if it drops the room temp more than 7 degrees, you shouod vent to outside. ​@@freddozer1399

[@avlisk]

I had 1 heat pump installed in my cabin (250 sq. ft.) and 2 in my garage shop/loft ( 24'X24') in Maine. I find that heat pumps work well into the teens (F) efficiently. However, anything from the high teens and lower, the defrost cycle runs at least every hour, when no heat is provided, and the amount of electricity used goes way up. In such low temps, I resort to either my propane wall heater or an electric/oil portable heater. They provide heat much more consistently and cheaply when it gets really cold. @@karlajensen100

[@jasonbrowne7057]

I still run a 24 Tube Evacuated Tube collector and Stainless Steel tank. System has been flawless for 15 years now and still going strong. We only boost on average 5 days a year at most. $6000 initial outlay for 15 years of hit water, has been good value for us.

[@sage5044]

got a heatpump 18 months ago in melbourne. use a simple timer device to align it with my solar panels output as well as off-peak electricty costs. works a treat!

[@yangchen6402]

Does the heat pump work fine in Melbourne's winter?

[@milesbuckhurst504]

My air to water heat pump is now nearly 20years old and as efficient as the day we installed it (modern ones are better) We live in Norway so we have a different type of extreme weather. But I’m guessing it has to work harder plus all heating is from the same unit (under floor). Love it! And it has for sure paid for itself. Next one will be ground source.

[@petermeah]

Same here have Australian made quantum 315l 22yrs old It was as given to me as house previous servicing was been knocked down so it’s on its second house. We have 10 people in the house for Xmas every year always hot water for dishes and showers. They’re a bit noisy. This is there only down side. Sadly it seems a lot of people aren’t great at maths. Hence the slow take up of heat pumps.

[@rossjohnson9940]

Yes my Australian made Quantam is 20 years old split system basecof the fan rusted out but with a quick repair job it's still going. My next one will be a solar panel operated electric element one. I hear to many bad stories about heat pumps ones now.

[@samheyman09]

I live in Horten in Norway and I am having difficulty deciding between a HP and a simple OSO tank with electric heating element. I am convinced that the simple tank makes sense given the cost of heat pumps, the very cold winter temperatures, the lack of knowledgeable installers and the very high cost of maintenance and repairs - but I see that you are happy with yours. Would you recommend a HP then?

[@singhonkar10]

Could you please compare with gas heating system vs heat pump water system ?

[@stephengentle2815]

I’ve got a Reclaim heat pump, it’s great. Uses just 2 kWh of energy each day from solar. I’ve been really happy with it, it works well!

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh nice. Glad you didn’t listen to my old Advice :)

[@guringai]

Same here, it's so quiet too.

[@peterbignell9482]

Basic electric hot water hands down for me. I've had 2 heat pump systems (rheem and thermann) and both crapped themselves around the 4 to 5 year mark (just outside warranty). Very expensive to repair ( so there goes the money you THINK you have saved) that's if you can find a serviceman who knows what he's doing. If anything goes wrong with my electric system I can change the element and thermostat in 20 minutes for $70.

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh, that is the way I used to think about it. And maybe it’s still valid. It really depends on the quality of the heat pump.

[@gazza5305]

Wow! The costs stated here are wrong. For the last 10 years adds up to just over 4k including purchase of standard tank.No solar. Family of 4, 250 litre

[@thardyryll]

No kidding. I absolutely do not believe the hype surrounding these wildly complicated devices. One look at the cutaway diagrams on You Tube shows a water heater packed with components that will fail. Why? Because everything eventually breaks. Anybody here have a fancy fridge that crapped out after 10 years? A washing machine that saves money until it breaks after a decade? My house has two electric water heaters, one of which is 37 years old. You read that right: thirty seven years. It was installed in 1987 and I bought my house in 1995. Repairs? NOT ONE. No thermostats, no elements, no nothing. For that matter, the Lennox heat pump outside my house is also 37 years old. ONE repair, a $1,200 compressor, in 1996. That’s it. NO appliance or HVAC device manufactured today can begin to match the durability of this equipment, for the simple reason that efficiency is pushed to the limit and production costs are cut to the bone at every turn. Buy basic appliances and maintain them, and hope for the best is about all you can do these days. As for me, I will keep my ancient water heaters instead of spending $4,000 for a fancy heat pump model.

[@--Nath--]

Pay attention to the (correct) maths because you could replace it multiple times and still come out ahead.. can't see how anyone can back an element over heatpump given the cost of electricity and total cost of ownership.

[@greghayden4598]

I have had a Rheem heat pump, it lasted 7 years, it was undercover. It did not last long enough 7 years, WOW that was SHIT.

[@Ryanhothersall]

Installed the 180 litre Istore heat pump earlier this year and at the same time did away with the gas connection to the house alogether. With the solar sponge tariff here in Adelaide, even on a cloudy day, it doesn't cost much to heat the water. Having 12.9 kw of solar helps.

[@mcelectrical]

Nice Ryan, I’d love to hear your story over time… Ie. does it last, and how is the warranty.

[@coolmanu55]

hi mate, may I know how much you paid and how is the performance ? I live in Adelaide too. Please update. Cheers.

[@Ryanhothersall]

@@coolmanu55 the Istore has been performing very well. It cost me approx $2400 after the rebates.

[@BrentHeberAusNZ]

Excellent advocacy Karl and interesting to see Mark admitting that sometimes a more complex technology can produce better overall outcomes….

[@RobertMartin-s2v]

This is a part of my all electric home in an area of the US that gets so cold that Aussies may have trouble conceptualizing.... (I do switch it from heat pump mode to hybrid for the winter) we touched -28C without factoring in the wind last winter for about a day... as a heat pump installer who has many customers who are all electric and some were on holiday, the only issue that arose was my stress level! I mean when it's so cold that an ICE doesn't want to start and you can still get heat out of outdoor air, the tech has come a very long way.

[@karlajensen100]

i'd like to see that but post a video as i dont want to see -28 in person , makes little difference if thats F deg or C deg its still bloody cold!

[@karlajensen100]

I wouldnt want to live there either @@bobguy6542

[@spyrule]

In Canada here, and my HeatPump hot water system uses 800w when running in ECO mode (heat pump only). This is ~3200W Less then the average all electric tank sold in Canada (where our inlet water temps can be as cold as 1-5'c). My previous tank was Gas, and it was costing me ~1200/yr in heating costs, besides my gas powered furnace (which has also been replaced with a cold climate heat pump heater/ac unit). My total gas bill each year (with taxes and tarriffs, was ~ $5600/yr). My new system, Even on full heating (excluding the backup unit, which on average will only run 1-2 weeks/yr), will cost me $2800/yr. It will take me about 12 years to amortize the savings for both hot water tank AND HVAC unit replacement. Next year, I add Solar, and that will drop my amortization period to ~6-7 yrs. Going Heat pump is TOTALLY worth it, but it does have a high up-front cost in Canada ATM (my all in price for both units, including electrical work, panel upgrade, etc, is $40k). So obviously future replacement will be cheaper, as I'll have the infrastructure in place to be all electric, and I'll have PV then. The numbers simply don't favor old-school resistive tanks anymore.

[@jasonbroom7147]

In the US, we installed a hot water heater with a heat pump and, after incentives from the government and our electricity provider, the cost was only a couple of hundred dollars more. The ROI on this unit will be realized in right around 18 months, with decreased operating costs from then until it needs to be replaced. As a nice bonus, I route the output from the "air conditioner on top of a hot water heater" into my garage, providing cooling during the warmer months and avoiding the condition where the heat pump and propane-fired heater are working against one another.

[@ClintRichard]

This was planned in our new house build. A 15Kw inverter with 52 x 375w panels pushing 80 -100 kW daily into the grid in summer on a clear day, the FIT atm is 7c The 315L standard hot water tank was retro fitted with a timer turning on at 8.30AM and turning off at 1PM . 1 deep freezer and 2 large fridge freezers We have never had a bill and are always in credit. House has a skillion roof facing due north. If you don't have solar or a small system and you need to replace your hot water tank then a heat pump would be the way to go

[@fastbike9845]

We installed flat plate collectors with a small pump/controller and a storage tank with two backup immersion elements (one about a third from, the other a third from bottom). Was a little spendy at the time (2002) but that has disappeared with general inflation. Provides approx 90% of hot water for 8 months and about 50% in the winter, acting as a pre heater. Now looking to put solar PV on the front part of the roof.

[@mcelectrical]

Thanks for sharing!

[@h2rider953]

Sanden heat pump in Sydney runs during the day on mostly of solar.

[@mcelectrical]

I’ve only heard good things about sanden. Expensive and really good.

[@mickwolf1077]

Well the manufacturer should build in redundancy, fit a resistive element in the tank also so if and when the heat pump components die they could fall back to that to heat the water, the tank could still be serviceable. And with the way solar feed in tariffs are going with lower rates and to the point it costs you money to feed in, they could direct excess solar electricity into the resistive element to heat up water faster if needed.

[@SamfordFlyers]

While it’s a compelling case for those shifting from gas, or those with a HWS close to the end of it’s life, we’ve got a 3yo electric 250l HWS with a 1.8 kW element, and have been heating our water with a Catch Green set to “solar only” (100%) for 5 months now (2 person household with a 5kW daily HWS load)….. As a result, the outcome using the calculator, based on $1000 to supply and install the Catch Green and 100% solar heating, was $2460 (to heat using our existing HWS) vs $3965 to replace the HWS with a heat pump. We’ve recently upgraded our solar (single phase with 12kW on the roof) and have noted we’re export limited to 5kW for quite a few hours most days, so an additional saving opportunity would be to defer HWS diversion heating (ironically, using a timer connected to the Catch Green!) to access the ‘free’ power that would otherwise be lost. If we managed to heat for half the time from this free power, the effective FIT would reduce from 8c to 4c, which would further reduce the 10 year cost from $2460 to $1730…. So, my advice would be to check your specific circumstances before concluding that a heat pump wins (when our HWS wears out, hopefully in 10 years + 🤞🏻, we’ll revisit our situation based on the power cost and FIT at the time ….). Of course, an added consideration is the life of the diversion device …. we’re hoping the Catch Green diverter will outlast its 5 year warranty… 🤞🏻

[@karlajensen100]

Kicker here is when you buy an EV, every kWh you put into it is worth $1 to you vs buying Petrol. likely wont have enough spare PV and economics of upgrading to three phase and adding more solar vs ditching the element and using that power for your EV are exceptional

[@SamfordFlyers]

@@karlajensen100 …. yes, that’s what prompted us to upgrade the PV on single phase (currently exporting 30kWh on sunny days, after self-consuming 10-12). We rarely drive more than 60km most days, so am going with a PHEV (latest model Mitsubishi Outlander, with a larger 20kWh battery). Reasonably confident that we’ll ‘fuel’ it most of the time with excess PV…. using a Fronius Wattpilot, that MC Electrical are installing this week (darn long wait-list for the vehicle …. signed a contract and paid a deposit nearly 12 months ago).

[@sparkzhu]

howlong the lifespan is for the heat pump? If you google the heat pump hot water, most people complian about it's failure after 3 or 4 years.

[@billdonald3671]

No, those that fail at 3-4 years (still annoying for them) are writing about that on the internet.

[@einfelder8262]

This comparison is ridiculous. No-one pays over $4000 for a standard electric hot water service, most people don't have solar, and most thinking Australians will not outlay over $5000 for a heat pump (by the way, they are very noisy when the AC unit is running) to save the environment. In my case, I was thinking of replacing my gas HWS with a pump unit, the quote was $5500 AFTER rebates. We use about $20 worth of gas per month. Can you explain how forking out big bucks for a heat pump (which has damaged the environment already by being manufactured) can save me any money. My gas HWS lasts our household about 18-20 years.

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh. Use the figures that make sense to you. I would have been happy to win this debate with Karl, but when I got the prices and did the Maths, I think heat pumps won more often. That’s why I made the calculator - use your own assumptions

[@Steve-mo4qp]

great video. I cannot understand why we don't try to get a double whammy benefit from our heat pump hot water systems. Why don't we pump the "waste' cold air from the heat pump into our homes in summer to cool them

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh I’ve heard that suggestion a few times. I guess the cost of the infrastructure to do that would be pretty high. But maybe someone will design a cost effective product some time.

[@TheAllMightyGodofCod]

Sorry, don't you have monobloc water heat pumps? Of course you can vent the cold air to your house in summer, it is super easy, barely an inconvenience, if the heat pump is a monobloc one

[@cottawalla]

I had a HVAC system that did the opposite, which was to pump the heat from inside the house during summer into the HWS.

[@mattcave8444]

Fantastic episode- would love to see a comparison between solar hot water and heat pump in QLD

[@mcelectrical]

Here is the calculator! www.mcelectrical.com.au/electric-element-vs-heat-pump-calculator/

[@typxxilps]

It pays off - a lot fast if you have enough surplus solar power and especially if you get the right one with an additional heat exchanger aka coil Those generate from surplus power hot water up to 62 C by the SG ready feature (in fact the hot water heat pump has 2 power connections where one of these is only powered if there is surplus power) and then can exchange the surplus energy into the oil / gas heater via the heat exchanger. In case of surplus power available the SG Ready line gets power and the heatpump switches from your usual heating schedule like 55 C in the morning from 6 to 10 am and 4 to 8 pm to a full speed 62 C surplus power mode until it switches of. In case of such cloud it continues to end the heatpump cycle first by the remaining grid power. These 270 Liter ones with heatexchanger come for 1900€ incl. 20% VAT and are easy to mount cause you simply replace the boiler. They save about 2€ of oil a day for hot water compared to current consumption and additionaly heating the home by 3/4 in such surplus mode which equals 1000 liter oil lor 1000€ , so in total 1700€ in case you have 16 kWp and a LFP battery The heatpump heat exchanger for heating should deliver more benefits than you calculated cause I bet you have a higher and more consitant solar power output per kWp installed than we here in germany with about 1100 kWh per kWp if we have a good year and a solar roof facing south. You calculate only hot water, but the heating function delivers a lot. Of cause the 1700€ savings has one downside: you feed less into the grid and loose here 0,08€ per kWh which is lot less than the 0,32€ we pay for the grid. Therefore you can expect to invest 5000 kWh to gain 17500 kWh of heat as hot water and loose 400€, so in total 1300€ net savings which pay of the whole hot water heatpump within 2 years. For example Atlantic Explorer V4 is a hot water heatpump with such 16 kW heat exchanger. And in Australia you will even score higher savings cause when do you see temperatures in winter below 5°C or below 0°C. You can save about 1500 Liter up to 1750 Liter of oil depending on the sunshine during the winter. And those heatpump offers 2 heating options: the heatpump compares the temperature outside and the kWh price with the oil price and makes a decision to heat by power or let the gas / oil heater heat the home cause in low temperature situations oil is cheaper. You can also run it differently which means the oil / gas heating measure the temperature of the circulating water for the heating. If it drops below 50 C it turns on as usual and heats up to 60 C till and then waits. If meanwhile sun comes out, surplus power is back again then that heating water will be heated by the heatpump which can run with up to 750 W that equals up to 3 kW . In coldest nights below zero it can also turn on a 1 - 2 kW heat element in the hot water tank. But the major difference is the heat exchanger to run your central heating from the solar surplus power instead of oil or you can even run it from the grid if that is cheaper than oil. Here it is slightly cheaper depending on temperatures so 80% - 90% of the year. And it is astonishingly easy to mount such system: fresh water and circulating hot water and hot water are the same of a boiler connected to the gas heating, then you have the 2 tubes or pipes connected to the gas heating and 2 power lines, one connected to the grid and one is a switched connection if surplus power is available. And it will pay of a lot faster than just the hotwater heatpump alone without such heatexchanger which is roughly 400€ more, so 1500€ for 270 L heatpump and 1900€ with heatexchanger. Of cause 1€ equals 1,7 $ AU if you want to do the math. The product mentioned above Atlantic Explorer V4 is a french product with english manual you should be able to download. It really will pay of the hot water heatpump with heat exchanger a lot lot faster than then a pure heatpump without coil.

[@karlajensen100]

thats a chunk to read, perhaps shorter would encourage more to dive in

[@grooveyman]

Bought a heat pump system. Cost $4k. Died after 3 years. Warranty was only 24 months. Ended up replacing it with an element system. Total waste of money after all the hype of the salesman.

[@bencoman]

At 12:02 for usage, that should be "kWh" not "kW" - listen carefully to your mate at 11:34.

[@mcelectrical]

Ohh, easy mistake. Sorry about that! Thanks for noticing :)

[@SmartEnergyLab]

Another great comparison debate. I love my iStore heat pump. It's been working every day for many years and as a relatively small power demand, and set to the solar preference cycle, it virtually runs off free solar every day.

[@davidmcdonald1491]

I live on 5 acres, we have a 3 bedroom house and a 2 bedroom granny flat. We just got 2 x Reclaim 315L heat pumps installed to replace a dodgy solar unit with electrical element and another full electric unit. Our electricity usage has dropped by $10 to $15 a day, it has only been a few days, so it will be interesting to see how it averages out over the next few weeks, but I can not speak highly enough of the units

[@mcelectrical]

Interesting, thanks for sharing your experience, David.

[@angyp74]

I have a heat pump hot water service in Melbourne with PV. It's unlikely that 90% of the power comes from solar. Generally, people have showers in the morning or at night so the best you can hope for is that the system is recovering during off-peak power.

[@mcelectrical]

You would still need a reasonable sized solar system, and heat the water during the day. Some heat pumps have timers built in. It really is site specific - so that’s the reason for the calculator

[@Heshhion]

Brilliant. As a Melbournite, this is great!

[@andrewcongdon]

Could you do a video on the various heat pump water heater options in Australia? For example, I assume you might combine with house heating in Melbourne but probably not in Cairns?

[@mcelectrical]

That’s a question for Karl. I’ll ask him if he has any interesting input and maybe we should do round 2.

[@agoogleuser312]

Wise to remember to inspect the anode yearly as per the warranty

[@mcelectrical]

Good point. Cheap and easy preemptive maintenance.

[@John-gm8ty]

"if you've made your money three times over, you can just buy another one" yes, this is how all finances work..............

[@_multiverse_]

Exhausting the cool air outside doesn't seem like a good idea to me in any situation, the air that's exhausted needs to be replaced from somewhere...outside. The cool air exhausted from the heat pump won't be as cold as the air outside. If it's below freezing outside that air will definitely be colder than the heat pumps exhaust.

[@L8R2YA]

What about instant gas hot water unit worth the swap ?

[@christalbert722]

I wish you'd included a column /calculations for a no-solar installation. There are a lot of people that need to replace a water heater but aren't ready/able to go solar yet. A whole category of people and use cases that were left out.

[@mcelectrical]

Good point. You could just enter zero solar production into the calculator.

[@-PORK-CHOP-]

Can we get a list of companies from istore in NSW that are installing the istore tank as part of the NSW hot water system rebate, all I can find are installers using the chromagen tank which are rubbish

[@mcelectrical]

Great question. I’ll ask Karl to chime in.

[@craiglucas1292]

still love my quick recovery GAS HOT WATER system , using NATURAL GAS , still use my two stroke lawn mower and my two stroke 500cc dirt bike n 20 to 1 petrol / oil ration, love nothinbg more than to wake up in the morning to smell that stroke running in the morning.

[@karlajensen100]

thanks Craig fracking is really good politically . vic is unable to produce enough gas from Bass strait for everyone by 2025 so alternatives are going to cost you a lot. 500cc is alot of dirt bike - guess you can ride! I cant so I have a stealth bomber which wouldnt be nearly as fast but i can ride it places you would get arrested so i find it enjoyable

[@lk313]

Great video. Biggest take away is heat pump tank also have resistive back-up. This ease my worries about durability of heat pump due to more complicated constructions.

[@mcelectrical]

Yes! Not all heat pumps do, but I would call that essential.

[@jdsouza123]

Question is. What temperatures do these two different types of equipment achieve/provide. (And under a range of ambient temperatures from zero to 40 degrees C) ?

[@titussteenhuisen8864]

I have an energie system with panel on the roof (condenser from heat pump). After installation I complained it wasn’t cheaper than normal electric. After five years change of ownership the new man diagnosed a faulty green board, replaced it and now it runs cheap hot water

[@HouseboatRenovations]

3 times more efficient, 5 times more expensive to install and buy. Not serviceable by home owner, 5 times more parts to manufacture. Have to look at the manufacturing impact on environment too.

[@mcelectrical]

Im not sure if you were quoted, but in Australia it’s not even close to 5 times more expensive to buy or install. Also, in Australia there is a rebate for heat pumps. I guess it would be difficult to calculate which is more environmentally friendly but a lot of energy is saved over 10 years with a heat pump.

[@twinrotors]

Do heat pumps not need a solar timer or relay?

[@mcelectrical]

No! Istore have 2 timers built in!

[@BusinessButlers]

In the UK, plumbers hate heat pumps because they make most of their money servicing gas combi boilers, charging 80 GBP an annual service. They can do the service in about 20 minutes so in a day, they can rattle through 15 services a day for very little effort making 1200 GBP a day !!!! ( Aus$ 2300 /day). With heat pumps in the UK at least, servicing is done by electricians with HVAC knowledge. The water based radiator system heating the home is rarely touched in any boiler service, so British plumbers are soon to have lower incomes and work harder for the rest of the work.

[@allanknight1910]

I got 20 years out of my 400ltr rheem element hot water system changed out 1 element and changed out the anode a couple of times to keep the rust / calcium at bay

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh that’s solid! I’ve seen the last 25 years, but they were copper tanks. With Istore, the tank may last the same time as any other tank. If the heat pump breaks down, you can just use the element in the tank to keep going. It’s kind of the best of both worlds.

[@kaiwuthenow827]

Well presented Mark and Karl. 👍👍

[@mcelectrical]

Thanks Kai. This one was a labour of love. Took me a while but it was totally worth it.

[@simonmiller5118]

Great video but can you get your units right on the graphics please? KWs are power. KWhs are energy. Thanks guys.

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh I noticed that after publishing! How embarrassing!

[@grassabrutta]

15000 hours of operation = 625 full days of operation. What fraction of the day do these gadgets generally operate for ?

[@xJI00]

I would like to see a comparison between the heat pump and solar hot water. Many people still installing solar hot water systems. Mine will need replacing in the not to distant future and I’m not sure yet wether I should replace or change to a heat pump. Had so many issues i feel like the roof space would be better served with more PV. It’s not free hot water when you forgo the extra panels and you still have an element using power.

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh, I would probably be installing more solar pv and a heat pump!

[@evil17]

Install more PV Solar. I hooked up a 320ltr H/W system I was given to offset using an instant gas H/W system I already have installed. I put an 1800W element in it after it blew a 3600W element 6 mths after install to reduce power usage if weather was cloudy & run it on a timer. This give our family of four plenty of hot water using only 4-5kwh/day or less. With 10kwh of solar & a battery in Hervey Bay we get $30 - $70/mth back from our power supplier.

[@nigemorris1]

Great debate and outstanding to see technological advances helping us all save money and emissions. Put a HP on dads place years ago, amazing results. Get a HP!

[@mcelectrical]

There we go. Another solar industry expert - with no bias- recommending heat pumps. Seems I was late on this bandwagon! Thanks Nigel!

[@jezza45852]

Hey, i am looking at putting in a solar system ATM and was considering the catch relay. from these calculations here you did not add that to the Heat pump system. i have a heat pump HW tank is the catch system not recommended with a heat pump system?

[@larrybolhuis1049]

Here in Michigan USA, it's cold a lot. We use Geothermal for heat and cool with a desuperheater to make hot water as well. While the desuperheater doesn't cover ALL of our needs it coves the vast majority. My monitoring system showed that in 2022 I spent $110 on the old school electric heater to provide the remaining hot water. So even if a heatpump water heater were to make that $110 be ZERO, it would take 20 years to pay for the heat-pump (approx $2,000 here in the U.S.) BUT even that miracle ignores that the heat that unit extracts from the air MUST come from somewhere, and that somewhere is my home. Given that my home is now cooler my goethermal needs to run more to compensate. That unit is (ish) 400% efficient but still I have to pay to run that, meaning the 20 years likely becomes 25 years for payoff. It won't last 25 years, yet here in the U.S. I may soon be told I MUST use a heat pump which will with hear certainty, COST me money!

[@jamesmcfarlane4365]

What wasn't covered was the EER varying with ambient temperature of the refrigeration system, meaning the 'efficiency' between Melbourne and Brisbane would have to vary (potentially significantly?) for a heat pump, im sure it wont be 400% in Melb. The other thing that concerns me is how well (and reliably) they perform in climate zones 7 and 8, where the small boxed window Ac's freeze into an ice block when heating in the morning with a high dew point, then require long periods of defrost.

[@karlajensen100]

Hi Jamie - I'll take this one! The Peak EER is >6 but its not representative of a broad range of operating conditions so we don't shout it from the rooftops. Istore still achieves COP 4 at anything over 6 degrees and there is no-where in Australia where average daytime winter temp is below 5 deg according to the BOM. by the time you're at 0 degrees that COP is 2. It also varies with tank/water temperature as the hotter the tank is the larger the temp differentials and thus larger gas pressures required to achieve and a corresponding loss of EER. Refrigeration is the very first topic of thermodynamics in engineering and is very well understood. The fact we can achieve average EER of 4 over heating 270L of water AND 100kgs of steel is really incredible however vs an airconditioner their design can be optimised for heating only and space constraints are less critical (indoor unit heat exchangers size). For climate zone 7 (TAS and a small portion of Vic/ NSW) the Istore is installed in their thousands - Energy point in Tas distribute Istore. For climate Zone 8 alpine regions, we have a number of units installed and there are many challenges in areas where the water freezes above ground and specific advice and expertise is needed. I would advise the use of supercritical CO2 units in alpine areas as their efficiency at negative temps can still be quite good, as the cost of gas in these areas is HUGE=, heatpumps make really good sense when properly designed.

[@jamesmcfarlane4365]

Ok makes sense, that’s great info thanks Karl, and noted on the CO2 supercritical for alpine zones. You and Mark have certainly convinced me, with those financials you cant lose! Thanks so much to you and Mark for the great video @@karlajensen100

[@richarddicktaylor219]

Compelling in the Australian context but you also really need to add in the TCO for the solar system as well as the indirect cost of the pressing upgrades to the distribution grid. In the UK these numbers don't add up as for many older homes and especially apartments solar is impossible (no space is a often overlooked issue) and when it comes to heat pumps and electric boilers most older buildings (our flat is 1930's concrete) don't have enough base capacity to run them. Finally, we have a system of rating housing via Energy Performance Certificates which is the most binary and stupid metric I have ever seen (having lived in Australia, the US and UK).

[@ronsmith2241]

My house faces north in Brisbane. What about a solar hot water system? How does that stack up overall? My 16 old Solar Hot water system has died.

[@mcelectrical]

We generally recommend replacing solar hot water systems with a solar panel system as often we can fit more panels on the roof in comparison to working around the footprint of a solar hot water system and that better provides the energy needed to heat your hot water, especially with a CatchPower: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Y6qcp6isn8uBjpY Give us a call on 3268 3836 if you'd like more information.

[@samheyman09]

I live in Norway where temperatures are between 0°C and -20°C for 4-5 months per year. There's no way that a HP can have a COP of 4 in those temperatures. Add the cost of the system, lack of knowledgeable installers, cost of maintenance, and I am 100% sure that a simple electric element and a buffer tank to make the most of off-peak tariffs is way better.

[@rossjohnson9940]

Recently an electrician was agast when I said something about a heat pump. Just to much trouble.

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh that’s cold! But your element would have a hard time there in winter too. As I understand it, a heat pump even down to minus 20 has a better co-efficient performance compared to an element.

[@wzk921109]

I’m looking into heat pump hot water in 3 phase setup in 2024 with smart shift tech, the relay thing you mentioned didn’t end up come out in 2023.

[@wt29]

I've built a diverter that reads my grid values. If it is in export by 2.5Kw, it switches the resistive HWS over from its default CL to the grid. It uses a $75 Shelly, an ESP8266 and a $60 contactor. They failed to use CL tariffs for the calculation in this video.

[@mcelectrical]

Nice! Sounds like a home made catch control. Fronius also has this built in. Yeh controlled load throws a small spanner in the works, but in Queensland, Controlled load isn’t much cheaper anymore. Strange, it still seems like a great way to “control loads” to me. We pushed it hard in the 90’s when I was working for Energex/ SEQEB. But they seem not be encouraging it anymore. I remember fondly the radio jingle from the late 80’s. “super super super super super super special. Your family’s going to love it and you’ll think it’s special too!”

[@wt29]

@@mcelectrical yep that's basically it a hacker built catch relay 🤣. I agree about why CL isn't used more for load control. Down here in NSW, my CL2 tariff is 20c vs 28c for everything else so about a 30% reduction which is slowly getting less valuable.

[@mcelectrical]

Love a good hack. Nice one!

[@liljfk9314]

Had to install a new compressor for my mom and dad’s AO smith heat pump wh. As always, 9 months outside the warranty…

[@edvoon]

Are there any state rebates for upgrading home hot water systems? I'm in NSW and I know there is a rebate to upgrade old element hot water systems to new heat pump systems, but not sure that rebate extends to gas systems.

[@mcelectrical]

I’m unsure it there is in NSW. There is a new heat pump rebate in qld

[@edvoon]

@@mcelectrical Any chance of getting a discount for your viewers from iStore?

[@mewnz]

All well and good except we have an indoor HW tank, and in a very leafy area that solar isn’t justified.

[@mcelectrical]

Unlucky!

[@markreed9853]

That seems very cheap for a heat pump? - is that including a grant? - here in the UK you are looking at more than that price AFTER a £5k grant and then usually need to pay extra for radiator and pipework upgrades.

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh there is a rebate worked into those figures. I should have mentioned that.

[@karlajensen100]

Its only suitable for domestic hot water not hydronically heating a house. Here thats spectacularly expensive too

[@foryoureyesonly7186]

Another point to consider re failures with heat pumps relates to incorret installs & site location. A big study was just completed on this very topic, im sure it was done in Vic.

[@mcelectrical]

Interesting, I’ll look that up.

[@jasonhutcheon5991]

Also consider the STC rebate when you purchase a heat pump. Mine was $850 in QLD

[@mcelectrical]

Yes, that was taken into account with the price of the system.

[@chefgav1]

@@mcelectricalwhere can you get a HPHWS installed for $3500? Think you will find an istore installation is a lot more than that

[@BTx789]

10:42 based on your computation, you will save 200 bucks on a heat pump. But you have to replace the unit

[@WA-en4qs]

I have a hot water heating system heated with coal. Could I use a heat pump to heat the water in my existing heating system?

[@mcelectrical]

That’s a question for a plumber.

[@karf450]

Rheem stainless 250l element is $1500 and $200 for home assistant plug setup.

[@mcelectrical]

That’s exactly what I’ve got at home. I’m switching it for a heat pump next Friday. 4 times more edficient, and with the stc “rebate” it’s not that much more expensive.

[@warmcast3188]

What you missed out is that given that heat pumps use up to a 1/4 of the energy that a resistive element heater uses, that means they require 1/4 of the renewables capacity installed, which means less land, roof space etc used, less time to install said renewables capacity, less capital expenditure on infrastructure or home solar installation. All that on top of the savings you calculated.

[@mcelectrical]

Kind of, but I wouldn’t put 1/4 the size of a solar system in just because you have a heat pump. Generally it’s best to fill the roof with solar panels regardless. This helps better cover morning and afternoon, winter and rainy days, and future proofs for an EV etc.

[@warmcast3188]

I wasn't suggesting putting in a solar system a 1/4 of the size. I view choices made for heating, transport etc from the perspective of a nations total energy consumption as well as home owners individual consumption. Heat pumps will have a big impact on a nations total energy consumption, along with ground transport electrification. If those two changes were made, In most cases where the grid supplies most of the population, a nation could cut a 1/3 off it's energy consumption and reduce land used for energy production. @@mcelectrical

[@cdonuts7335]

Having a refrigeration unit to make hot water is the most stupid idea! I should know we went through this nightmare because of basix requirements when we build our house a few years ago! First ours run nonstop! It was noisy! It broke down at least once a month! It is so complicated with a bunch of PCBs and other unreliable electronics! They won't run if it get near 0 degrees. The service technician who we came to know very well told me their a failed technology. I disconnected it while still under warranty and took it to the tip. Bought a 400 litre duel element! It was luxury to have reliable hot water, and my power bill actually went down. I still have nightmares coming home late after work to a cold shower!

[@mcelectrical]

@cdonuts7335 I’m surprised I haven’t had more comments like this. This was my opinion of heat pumps. How long ago did was it installed and what brand?

[@cdonuts7335]

@@mcelectrical so am I reading through the comment section and look I'm not one to comment on these review videos but I developed such a disdain for these systems and cold showers. 😂 I couldn't help myself. It was 10 years ago, it was a Rheem which at the time cost us a small fortune. I know you'll say they are better now but they are flawed like the technician said in the basic concept of using heat generated from condensing refrigerant to heat water. I also have friends and family that have or had heat pumps despite my advice recently and are having trouble. I'm all for off-grid green energy! I've loved the idea of powering something by free energy from the sun since I was a kid! Been building off-grid systems since the late 80s. But I see a lot of claims through this green energy push that in the real world just aren't true and don't work. While we "transition" to renewables those that aren't prepared may just have to get used to sitting in the dark while the grid load sheds and taking cold showers!

[@sanjosemike3137]

It is important to recognize that heat pump water heaters work better in hot climates. I live in a (very hot) summer climate. My garage gets very, very hot so the heat pump water heater is perfect for this location. Sanjosemike (no longer in CA)

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh for sure. in Queensland, heat pumps are pretty efficient too.

[@EnhantedSaber]

My question is more... Is it worth it to switch if you already have an existing instant heater...

[@mcelectrical]

Probably not. Unless you use an excessive amount of hot water and you pay a crazy amount for electricity. Just wait till it gets old and replace it. In saying that, I’m replacing my hot water for a heat pump soon. But that’s just cause I’m a nerd.

[@EnhantedSaber]

@@mcelectrical another thing also, since I live alone, would that basically bring down the efficiency of anything that has to use a water tank? Because I'd be heading up the whole tank for just one person?

[@douger1517]

We live fully off grid and have a heat pump, free unlimited hot water 24hours no cost. Chinese heat pump cost $900 three years old. Family of four. Best decision we made going off grid.

[@manuelcilia391]

the biggest issue is that most people will not have enough roof space to charge a resistive HW and one or maybe two EV's. this is where every space kw you produce from solar becomes important.

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh, I think as ev’s become more common, heat pumps will make more sense.

[@alukic1]

I have an electric tank that enters the heatpump tank then to house taps , I was going to swap it round and get heatpump to run first but had a thought to leave it as let the electric do most of the work so at least the pump will last longer

[@cabriolex]

Great video. But you need to account in the inflation of the electricity prices. 10% a year minimum. The less you are dependent on external pricey resources, the better it is long-term.

[@twinrotors]

How does PV redirection to the heat pump work? Can I feather my excess PV (meaning that above what I can export and use) to the electric element of the istore? It seems wasteful to start stop the pump all day long.

[@mcelectrical]

You can’t really do much except have a timer. But because the load of the heat pump is relatively low (under 1kW) then it will usually sit under the export curve of a decent system.

[@davidissko9796]

Just had an almost silent Sanden ASHP HWS installed in inner SE Melbourne. Data collected for just over half a month indicates an average of 3 to 3.3kWh daily energy use.

[@mcelectrical]

So, you’d be using four time that if it was an electric element.

[@davidissko9796]

@@mcelectrical Do you mean 1/4 that of an electric element, possibly less? I should have added that the tank is 315 litres in volume.

[@karlajensen100]

@@mcelectrical the Sanden has an inverter drive, costs double what an Istore does and achieves 10-15% better performance so est would be 12.45kWh for an element tank

[@terjeoseberg990]

How about heat pump vs. gas? Heat pumps are obviously more efficient than a heating element.

[@21847835g]

Link to calculator broken. Link from the website blog is broken, too.

[@mcelectrical]

@21847835g thanks for the heads up, what error came up for you? Does this link work for you? mcelectrical.com.au/electric-element-vs-heat-pump-calculator/

[@ashandezoysa2133]

Nope it doesn't work for me

[@jasonbrowne7057]

Our hw tank is in a large indoor cupboard inside the house, will a heat pump iperate in an environment where its not ventilated.

[@karlajensen100]

no it would need to be relocated outside. upside is you'll gain a cupboard!

[@tedbullpit6164]

Was this about Heat pumps or catch reloads

[@mcelectrical]

It was a comparison!

[@billdonald3671]

Here's how cheap it can be done. Saxon all copper HWS (sadly no longer sold) with an 1800 watt element (been in 18 years). Plug it into a standard power point on a simple timer set to run 11am to 4pm (it usually takes 1 hour in summer, maybe 2 in winter). Powered by solar (14 cent FIT) or Off Peak rate (15 cents). 10 year cost about $1640. Admittedly that's a best case scenario as I got the tank for $800, we have good Off Peak hours in Tasmania and it's a 1 person household. I'd be really pissed to only get 10-15 years from a HWS.

[@mcelectrical]

The old copper tanks were the best. I’ve seen them 25 years old. They don’t make them like they used to!

[@2binaround]

Why not a glass container be used instead of traditional steel

[@Sigma4Life972]

Worst decision of my life getting heat pump, 15k lost and home froze up during -40c temp

[@mcelectrical]

Oh wow. That doesn’t sound like the right environment for a heat pump!

[@alexgretel3490]

Does the i store work with my green catch power? (i assume the electric element component). i’m using my hot water as a cheap energy storage alternative to batteries.

[@karlajensen100]

No, you would ditch the green catch and sell it. This would likely only be viable if your existing electric tank fails and you still have a cost effective albeit without any environmental benefits the heat pump does as it doesnt reduce the $$ you spend

[@MatteHatt]

A heat pump for hot water sounds interesting ... but it'd be even more interesting if the output (cold air) could be used for cooling the house ... or if an AC already exists, why not use it to cool the roof space ?

[@mcelectrical]

Hmm, interesting. The cold air pumped out isn’t 11 degrees like an air con. I guess that’s the primary reason. The other reason is the amount of infrastructure to to this is untenable. At least it’s not off the shelf now. Maybe someone needs to work on a proof of concept and bring a product to market!

[@MatteHatt]

@@mcelectrical I had a chat to my AC Tech about this and he thought it'd be ugly but easy to run an "exhaust" from a heat pump into our ceiling space. Understand that it's not going to be 11°C but definitely cooler than the 80°C up there in summer.

[@cranbers]

is that an actual power wall in the back round? Or just a shell? if it is a real power wall is it being used? Those things are like 8k in the US.. And yeah I went to a 50 gal rheem head pump water heater 2 years ago. I was on propane.. propane is really expensive we get it off of a "community tank" its like 3 dollars a gallon +. When I put this in instant 40 dollar a month saving. I also went from propane furnace to a heat pump one, and hundreds of dollars a month saving in the winter. Amazing how efficient this technology is when using electricity.

[@mcelectrical]

Ha, it’s just a shell. Tesla gave me a couple for my show room and my video room.

[@PeterJohnson76]

They are 4 times the price but a quarter of the running costs. So when they get to near end of life, you break even. The main advantage is for the environment which is great.

[@mcelectrical]

With rebates in Australia, they are not 4 times the cost. That’s probably why it works economically.

[@PeterJohnson76]

@@mcelectrical For starters, rebates are not even available for new builds.

[@joeprogrock]

Great video I'd love to see a companion of heat pump to gas storage and continuous flow

[@mcelectrical]

That’s a bit above my pay grade :)

[@virgin1958]

I have 10 kw of Solar 8.2 inverter. I have had the istore 270 2 years now. With the fronius app I can see around a 1kw load when heating. I recommend istore . Seriously low energy bills. To be honest it hardly uses any power even at night

[@virgin1958]

1 kw load per hour

[@Snerdles]

Personally, I think the use case is very situational and the energy savings and cost savings can be depated. The heat pump tank will be extracting heat from the surrounding area and putting it in the tank. So if you happen to live in an area where you heat your home half the year (like Canada) and your tank will just be extracting the heat you just generated to put it in the tank. On the other hand, in those sotuations a heat pump clothes dryer, because they don't need an external air exhaust, will be a far better allocation of investment if looking for energy savings. Kind of like Solar power systems, their value is very situational.

[@karlajensen100]

its an outdoor unit and heat pumps work in most climates. not many people live in extreme climates as its much easier to live in warmer places

[@edvoon]

Was trying to figure out why the heat pump would take heat from your home, and then realised that you probably have your hot water heater indoors. Hot water units are mainly mounted outside the home in Australia (unless you live in an apartment). I could be wrong, but I think all the small apartment sized water heaters are element-heated and not heat pumps for exactly that reason. Where it would make sense for apartments is if they have a centralised hot water heater for the building, and that's where a commercial heat pump solution would REALLY save some money.

[@chronobot2001]

Moving parts and complexity = less reliability and increased expense.

[@raymondschembri5042]

So what you are saying is to go back to incandescent light bulbs instead of electronic LEDs lights.

[@PandaSoft]

How about a roof mounted solar hot water system with a heat pump?

[@mcelectrical]

You'd be able to generate more solar power prioritising a larger solar panel system on the roof, instead of taking up valuable roof space by mounting a solar hot water system.

[@MarksElectricLife]

Rubbery figures. I was quoted $4,500 for a heat pump. I paid $1,700 for a standard electric tank and $900 for an Eddi solar power diverter. I already had a 9.5kW PV system. It fully heats my hot water every day for nothing. Sure, a heat pump would use less power but the $2K up front price difference will buy enough solar panels to heat your water each day. And it's a much simpler solution, with less to go wrong.

[@mcelectrical]

Fair point. Thats why I made the calculator in the link. I’m running my hot water at the moment with a standard tank and a diverter and 17kW of solar. I don’t like it when winter rainy days come and we don’t have enough excess to heat water.

[@MarksElectricLife]

@@mcelectrical Well you'll be right for a few years now with El Nino in place. I have a much smaller system than you but my problem is over-production. With Amber I trade in the wholesale market. Today I had to turn my A/C on full and open all the doors to avoid exporting into a -5 cent market. Clearly the problem in Australia is too much energy and not enough storage. Sad to think the planet is going to boil, not because we can't make enough green energy but because we didn't think to build the infrastructure to store it. Rather than invest in centralised storage governments should offer a 50% rebate to anyone who installs a home battery. Within a year you would have enough distributed storage to keep the lights on for everyone. Of course EVs with VTG would be an even better solution 🤔

[@lukepeterson1150]

Why are you putting an element hot water system at $3300? $1150 will buy a Thermann element hot water system at Reece plumbing with wifi control of temperature and heating times which suits solar. It also has a component that separates hot and cold water.

[@cottawalla]

The math here assumes a COP of 4, which unless you live in the tropics is never going to be achieved as an average year round. More likely you'll get an average COP of less than 2 and then these systems cost upwards of three times the cost of a standard HWS. If you use a LOT of hot water, eg a laundromat, then they may be cost effective. I note the guy said they've never had a "tank" fail in 7 or 8 years. That sounds like redirection of the issue. What's the failure rate of the heat pump?

[@mcelectrical]

Good point. Yeh since that interview I’ve been in close discussions with plumbers that install heat pumps including Istore, and I’ve become friends with the owner of Istore. I think they are a pretty legit company with a solid product, and a low IN WARRANTY failure rate. In fact, I’m convinced to the point that we’ve just started selling them. Take that bias as you wish!

[@coolmanu55]

I am confused between rheem and istore 180l. Please advise. thanks.

[@mcelectrical]

I’ll be honest, I don’t know. Heat pumps are fairly new to me. Rheem also has a decent reputation. I think a backup electric element should be non negotiable. If you want my biased opinion, as of a few weeks we’re now installing Istore heat pumps. I’m confident with their reputation.

[@coolmanu55]

@@mcelectrical what is a backup electric element . Can you please explain ?

[@mcelectrical]

If the heat pump part fails (let’s say even in 10’years) or if you need more hot water, Istore has a traditional hot water element as a backup.

[@coolmanu55]

@@mcelectrical awesome mate. I have booked an istore 180L heat pump, thanks for your advise. best coset effective and 5 years warranty. what else u need.

[@mcelectrical]

Nice. Hope it goes well, I’m installing one at my place soon too.

[@GeoffPiddington]

Interesting discussion, but why is not direct solar included in the maths - mine has been operating for 20 troublefree years, not even sure if the tank heating element still works!

[@karlajensen100]

direct solar is also known as solar thermal - its typically good for a solid portion of the year in QLD but less than 8 months in Melb, they are typically more expensive to install and operate for the 200L daily use case that is a typical household. in Melbs thats 10kWh a day boosting for 120 days of winter , the pipe losses beat you up too if not close coupled system and installing tanks on roofs is $$$

[@GeoffPiddington]

For one considering a heat pump that makes sense, but, if solar thermal is allready in situ, its costs have long been absobed and its continued use should be considered when used with a heat pump. @@karlajensen100

[@mcelectrical]

I guess that would be a great topic for another video! I’m a electrician focused on solar, Karl works for a heat pump manufacturer. I probably should get a thermal hot water expert on!

[@Too-Odd]

What you did not consider is the ambient temperature being maintained in the home. A heat pump water heater saves nothing during winter in cold climates if the heat pump uses indoor ambient air. Why is that? Because the heat the heat pump is using will have to be replaced by the house heating system. In warm climates, where the cooling effect of an indoor heat pump will have cool air conditioning as a side effect, heat pump water heaters are much more efficient on a yearly basis. Someone in Arizona, Aruba, or northern Australia would benefit much more than someone living in Canada, Sweden, or Tasmania.

[@mcelectrical]

Yeh if you have extremely cold winters, heat pumps are not the best solution. I wouldn’t have thought of putting a heat pump indoors! But I guess they do in some climates.