Heavyweights in Super Smash Bros: The Good, Bad and How To Fix Them

[@arJunebugSmash]

Please don't make heavyweights faster, I don't wanna play against more PM DKs

[@ZachHonest]

LOL

[@MasterKnightDH]

You know. Kid Icarus Uprising involves the Power system providing options instead of having something like Skyscraper Club be able to use (Running) Speed+ to passively run even as fast as base First Blade. Lightweight simply doubles mobility speed for duration, Super Speed triples it for a significantly shorter duration, and Jump Glide (or any Jump Power, really, but Jump Glide is the most synergetic with Skyscraper Club IMO) works off of the momentum at the time of the activation. If you ever see Skyscraper Club move faster than any weapon type can at base including Brawler Claws, now you know why. And this is keeping in mind that Clubs also have bad attack speed across the board in addition to lacking momentum on Dash Attacks, and Skyscraper Club is also not known for effective range against anybody capable of this novel concept called dodging. Would you be playing against PM DKs? MAYBE. The thing is, Powers are available to both sides to begin with. I was using a sort of experimental mage Power loadout on ChromeNoir's recent stream and it didn't include Super Speed, to my detriment at given times. OTOH, the mage Power loadout did have better semi-passive pressure at mid range than what I usually go with, which is basically to wall and abruptly tag people. Meanwhile, the other side has their own Powers to work with. For example, even if Reflect Barrier can be outmaneuvered, it still proves to be useful and certainly has discouraged me from just using the incredibly useful Getup Forward Shot at times. The end result is that the junk for speed stats is STILL going to be around to be a critical weakness, rather than outright removed, just that capitalizing upon as much is not going to be so brain-dead if the person dealing with that mess knows how to work with what they have and how to overcome mobile snipers in particular.

[@samuellohoues9930]

@@ZachHonest Excellent video. Sorry to ask the same question but, do you know the music from the previous video when you were talking about Lucario?

[@ThePi314Man]

Skill issue

[@hypedup8081]

still suffering prime thunderz ptsd?

[@shayanmanteghi5662]

Kazuya is basically what happens when a heavyweight is actually good and very unfun to fight against!

[@zag5434]

Bowser in ult isn’t a bad character and I don’t think he’s that bad to play against

[@paulakroy2635]

Incineroar is probably one of smash ultimates most beloved characters and he’s a high mid tier character and perfectly viable. Also ultimate snake is pretty healthy

[@keybladeapologist.1131]

I just played him for the first time a few days ago and his ko's are just absolutely free. And his projectile is so very good

[@lukemagnotta7338]

I don’t count Kazuya as a heavy. He is a heavy in weight only, and his design/viability wouldn’t really change much if he weighed as much as, say, Samus or Yoshi. His hurtbox isn’t that big, he’s pretty fast because of crouchdashes, he has an amazing recovery. He’s a combo character like Falco or Wario.

[@zdelrod829]

@@lukemagnotta7338 That's the problem! It's an example of trying *too* hard to make a heavyweight strong enough.

[@StanleySophana]

Poor Ganondorf. Dude has been ranked dead last in both Brawl and Ultimate. He's a fun character to play as and it sucks that we never see him in tourneys

[@mandalorianhunter1]

He is still close to last in 4

[@Super_star_remix]

he is also an unviable mid tier in meele

[@k-leb4671]

His moveset is absolute balls.

[@thethreekings9120]

After what Nairo did to Light's Fox while playing Ganon, and how Bloodynite plays Ganondorf, I think it just takes the right players to make somebody like Ganon truly shine.

[@ayar2]

You said it, Ganon is fun to play, but people in tourneys dont want to have fun, they want to win.

[@lordmango6060]

Buffing speed is definitely the simplest and one of the most effective ways to make the viable, but it is the least creative imo. I really like Rivals of Aether's heavies because they give them lots of creative tools and stage control

[@JiggySwagner]

The thing about heavyweights is that their balance has to take casual play into account way more than others. Ganondorf may be less effective at a high level, but he's oppressive in a 4-player FFA or a laggy online match. Ganon's sword moves are just so huge and powerful that a lot of players can't deal with it. He's also very heavy, so he's hard to kill for someone who doesn't know how to edgeguard. It's a whole other can of worms on how developers should balance around lower-skill brackets, but considering Smash is first and foremost a party game, the devs are stuck in a damned if they do and damned if they don't. I really like how Kazuya works as a higher-skill heavyweight. He has tools that other heavies don't, but utilizing them is more difficult. I think that's a good way of appeasing both sides (even if Kazuya is maybe a smidge overtuned).

[@paulakroy2635]

While this is kinda true I think at a causal level kazyuza is just non functional because of his speed and also not really fun because you can’t do have of his moves.

[@bigttheory]

@@paulakroy2635nah he has a full stage neutral b, three strong smash attacks and a kill throw at high percents

[@Jonathan-A.C.]

First I’d say, always buff over nerf, if it’s possible. Secondly, I think if it comes down to it, it’s better to have a neutral or weak character in low skill matches but be strong competitively, over the opposite. Plus if they want to fix Ganon and make him appealing to the average person, actually make him canonically accurate

[@risingshotz3607]

imagine not being able to edgeguard a ganon in 2024

[@kyokari4]

remix ganon also seems like a good example of what speed can do to a heavyweight

[@OUTOFSTAR365]

He is fast?

[@knightsteyri9110]

Ultimate Bowser is pretty damn good.

[@BirdieSenpai]

Many thanks for the respect sent my way for being a Melee Bowser main; MagnuM trained me back in the day and we took Bowser from absolute dirt to just mostly dirt with our Fortresshogging technique. I became a Ganondorf main afterward in later games to see if I could do something similar with him...to very limited success, lol.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

Creating a good heavyweight often makes them toxic to fight against. See Brawl Dedede, Smash 4 Bowser and Donkey Kong, and Ultimate Kazuya for example.

[@Monhamd1000]

Heavy can be surprisingly good in tournaments.

[@RaheemRollair]

Smash 4 was a good time to be a Big Heavyweight main. Matchups weren't that bad for me personally since the roster was healthy and everyone was scared of getting too reckless near a Bowser or Donkey Kong main who knows what's going on.

[@Mepphy99]

11:00 tbh giving Ult Ganondorf byleth attributes and dead man volley instead of warlock punch would make me mid tier instantly

[@k-leb4671]

What do you mean by Byleth attributes?

[@WatchVidsMakeLists]

​@@k-leb4671Probably speed, weight, etc., if I had to guess

[@TaleOfTheToaster]

8:20 “gave Kazuya a lacklustre recovery”, haha, sure they did, haha…

[@UltraNurture]

Great video! Heavyweights have a tough time in 1v1s but in free for alls they can be great. I think a video focusing on lightweights could be interesting.

[@ZachHonest]

Definitely! I was thinking about talking about different character archetypes in the future

[@goGothitaLOL]

On the subject of heavies, Ridley is lighter than Samus, even if only by 1 point. Yes he is faster than Bowser and also has a projectile of his own (even if it requires charging up), but he still needed the traditional super heavyweight and maybe super armor to have any survivability. Above-average weight (usually good under normal circumstances but bad for his size) and still a big ass hurtbox without any super armor nor intangibility is asking for trouble. But hey, at least he’s not Mewtwo’s weight

[@randytyson]

This is a common issue with fighting games in general. In a genre where the faster versatile characters are better, designing heavyweights must be frustrating amd overlooked af Also i love bowser in smash remux

[@Appletank8]

In my head, an issue heavies tend to have is that it doesn't matter how strong they can hit or how much hp they have if they can't actually get hits in and get combo'd constantly. Shouldn't they be harder to get combo'd so easily? Less hitstun or something?

[@k-leb4671]

@@Appletank8 I guess armour is a way to solve that, but not many superheavies actually utilise it much.

[@Wario_B]

K. Rool had many, many, many many….and I mean MANY flaws. He’s glacially slow, has horrible frame data, has a massive hurtbox, slow airdodges, a very exploitable recovery, pretty meh projectiles overall, his own crown can hurt him more then it helps him about 75% of the time, his whole gimmick of having armor to protect him blows up in his face if he uses it too much, and his counter only protects the front of his body and still leaves his head completely vulnerable. I probably missed a few but literally most of his massive, glaring issues could be fixed with having faster frame data and just some more tuning. Like make his recovery more controllable then just flying straight up and make it cancellable. Little stuff like that works wonders for characters like him.

[@mandalorianhunter1]

I agree with a lot of these things but I will say K. Rool is better then most people give him credit to. He actually has some good MUs against top, high and mid tier characters. He does well against Cloud, Peach, Samus and other certain characters

[@k-leb4671]

Yeah I hate how some of his traits become negatives once you get to a certain skill level. Opponents who are skilled enough can easily abuse his crown and belly armour. I don't think removing the HP on his belly and the lagginess of picking up his crown would make him oppressive in casual play, but it would work wonders in competitive play.

[@IHateMyWifeButILoveHer]

@@mandalorianhunter1>k rool does well against peach Huh

[@mandalorianhunter1]

@@IHateMyWifeButILoveHer yes he does

[@IHateMyWifeButILoveHer]

@@mandalorianhunter1 how

[@supersentaimexicano1967]

Kazuya lack luster recovery? Bro u must be blind. He's recovery it's really good.

[@paulakroy2635]

3:28 “ but maybe not as bad” definitely leagues better than melee bowser

[@0oShwavyo0]

Honestly I was offended lmao

[@Sly88Frye]

Wow! That sucks that Gannondorf is the worst fighter in Ultimate despite them trying harder to differentiate him from Captain Falcon. Just give Gannon his own moveset and have the Captain Falcon clone be another racer from F-Zero. Maybe Black Shadow. Gannon being a clone of Captain Falcon doesn't make any sense.

[@R-son-fm1wn]

Bro how many times have you actually seen someone break KRool's belly armor ?

[@frankjoz2803]

Almost once per match. Samus here.

[@R-son-fm1wn]

@@frankjoz2803 How many times have you seen KRool's armor break without playing a broken character ?

[@BlackKnightsCommander]

How many times have you seen someone actually play K Rool in tourney?

[@R-son-fm1wn]

@@amadeus.7436 VOD or cap

[@R-son-fm1wn]

@@BlackKnightsCommander A lot. online

[@jayz_1408]

Just give dedede back the waddle dee throw as a side b

[@megadoyourmom64]

Literally Gordo is such a bad move, Waddle Dee like the kind in Smash remix would be an improvement.

[@mandalorianhunter1]

And his Brawl back air

[@megadoyourmom64]

@mandalorianhunter1 HDR gave him his PM backair and recently his Brawl D Tilt :^)

[@mandalorianhunter1]

@@megadoyourmom64 I'm not interested in HDR but I will check it out

[@jayz_1408]

@@mandalorianhunter1I miss his brawl bair

[@conspiracytheory1977]

The editing is amazing

[@zachstarattack7320]

really quick pace and informative videos

[@ZachHonest]

Thank you, thats what I try to do!

[@Redpoppy80]

I think Terry is a good slate to build one type of heavyweight. He has a good but not great projectile that can force approaches, he has ways to get out of combos and his damage output is really high without having a garbage recovery which most heavyweights suffer from. It's not great and is entirely mixup based but it works. Most heavyweights have such awful recovery that it invalidates their weight and makes them garbage. I think a pure power but slow heavyweight has to have great recoveries and mixups on top to not invalidate them out of the gate.

[@yummyos]

would love to see you do this same topic with zoners. Not lodge-camps like puff or mk I’m talking snake, dunk hunt, and brawl ZSS for the first 30 seconds

[@sythrus]

It could be an interesting experiment to see if making higher weights reduce incoming damage slightly could work. Dont quote me on this tho, random idea i had while sitting on three 130 pound bags of green coffee.

[@Appletank8]

My personal thought is that heavies being survivable doesn't really help if it just makes them combo food. ...So what if you reduce the hitstun they are in so they can break out of combos more easily?

[@noirlavender6409]

Kazuya's recovery isn't "Lack luster" it's way better than about half the cast, he can act out of upB and airdodge up, his aerial drift is good and he can stall with his neutral B and his upB goes really high and snap to ledge really easily because the ledge grabbing box is big, you can see people trying to 2frame riddles for example and missing 9 out of 10 times just because of that, his only gripe in recovery is that he, just like Ganon, can't do shit out of aerial sideB but even so his recovery is better than other top tier characters. It's way better than aegis, wolf, lucina, minmin and olimar just to name a few.

[@BigDnotimpressed]

Smash 64 Donkey Kong deserved a mention. He was the very first of these.

[@glauciarochelle]

"king k rool have projectiles which is rare for a heavyweights characters" king dedede: i'm an joke to you

[@RoninCatholic]

Fox in Melee is a Heavy, but he's fast and relatively small compared to the rest of the weight class. High weight to give him a quick fall speed, matching the rest of his movements and making him feel snappy. I think he only doesn't count as a Heavy anymore because this is measured partly relative to the rest of the cast, and we've gotten a lot more characters in general including a lot more big bulky dudes.

[@SonicTheCutehog]

Fox is a lightweight in Melee and every future Smash game. He just has a fast fall speed that makes him more susceptible to combos.

[@k-leb4671]

Since when did weight determine fall speed in Melee or any Smash game?

[@xxwallzxx4509]

The good about them is they like to be at high percentages do to getting combo early game into it. Which means they also like to have rage and getting smacked around and living for a while. Joke, but you get my drift.

[@nikc101]

Little Timmy and his friends will probably cry if Ganon gets speed buffs Lmaoo Many heavyweights like Ganon are noobkillers - amazing low level while not good in high level. Bridging the gap would be nice in the high level tbh

[@docs.a.t.7161]

I don't think it's inherently a problem with heavyweights in fighters, much less smash. There's been a bajilliom cases of big/heavyweigjt characters being top tier nbd in other games, and Rival's heavyweights (alongside other platfighters) don't struggle nearly as hard as Smash's. IMO it's moreso that every heavy in Smash (sans Incin) has been poorly designed, and will probably never become better because of Smash's broader demographics and whatnot

[@iamLI3]

hey you can't hide that gen4 pokemon music from me o: .....

[@kaito2220]

Bro Kazuya is not that hard, you can practice like a day and have all his ewgf shenanigans down pat lmao

[@satiatedghost9216]

the background music on this video gave me anxiety

[@Tron_Cykharthys]

Kinda sad to see how my boy Ganon was done over the course of smash. Its almost as though they intentionally made him bad. After melee he's considered basically one of if not the worst character in each installment afterwards.

[@RationalFunction]

He wasn't even in 64, so he's always sucked.

[@noirlavender6409]

Something that heavy guys are lacking in smash ultimate is kill confirms, there's almost none, like having to land a ganon dair or sourspot dash attack to hope for a kill confirm isn't really a confirm at all, those options are extremely punisheable, this is why kazuya is so busted strong but also why Bowser and Incineroar overperform every other heavy character, side B and tilts with tons of kill power and kill throws you can confirm into with jab1

[@thepooroldsoul8179]

Dude... Bowser and Donkey Kong were High Tiers in Smash 4, not Mid Tiers.

[@Super_star_remix]

Dk was pretty good in meele

[@paulakroy2635]

I actually disagree I think Project + took heavyweights in the wrong direction in a lot of ways. They basically standardized characters and ignore alot of design put into these characters. Yes giving a mobility boost is nice but I would much rather they give heavy weight other ways to balance their kit. Gannon for example while I like the reference I think it doesn’t really fit with his smash design as an in your face heavyweight and the change to cape kinda just isn’t that. I also think it’s important to acknowledge while not a Zelda reference warlock punch is really well loved at a causal level. I feel like the far more sensible change is to give projectile intangiblity to his foot. I

[@Bruce-906]

Ultimate DK : poor neutral awful out of shield options combo food garbage recovery

[@NathanielKamanga-hu8ev]

Snake are weapons

[@jaotrx7163]

Just give him more damage

[@elibonham4388]

Can I get project M on dolphin?

[@lagaffe91]

You can, but you should instead look for project +

[@elibonham4388]

@@lagaffe91 does project plus work on dolphin?

[@SNSsack]

Ultimate has the most viable heavies and they most def learned from there mistakes

[@NanoMoth]

beeg boys

[@sythrus]

Remember, DK, the first swordfighter, was a heavyweight (Yes, DK is a swordfighter in practice, its the long range safe attacks). Not really much of a point for me posting this other then that little tidbit

[@chullupa]

The fifth best smash game

[@GarnitrexGaming]

Ban Charizard

[@kquindarlewisfyindujbar]

Kirby is worse than bowser. i stand by that fully. idc.

[@Jlc-ljc]

When he said people want to ban him... I heard something else👀🥵 ban...g ...... him

[@ninjamaster4292]

3rd