Israel, the Jews and the Sunni - Shiite Conflict

[@JosephStern]

The peoples who occupied the region before the advent of the ancient Israelites are all long gone and forgotten, conquered, enslaved, expelled, and ultimately absorbed into later cultures. Israel would not have the slightest need to "oppress" anyone, were they only to accept her right to exist in peace. The moment Anwar Sadat expressed a desire to make peace, he was greeted as a hero by a grateful and forgiving Israeli public. The same would meet any Palestinian leader of courage and humanity.

[@gusibrahim6961]

Watching this 7 years later it raises many questions about the rise of ISIS!

[@Zainab_salat]

Israel America founded them and funding them😂😂😂😂😂

[@WearyWitness]

Gen. Matityahu Peled: “To pretend that the Egyptian forces massed on our frontiers were in a position to threaten the existence of Israel constitutes an insult not only to the intelligence of anyone capable of analyzing this sort of situation, but above all an insult to the Zahal [Israeli army].” (cited in Ha’aretz, March 19, 1972.)

[@JosephStern]

Jews have a history in the land at least three times as long as that of the Arab Muslims. This is not a controversial or disputed statement, among people who know things.

[@WearyWitness]

You seem to agree that the Jews were coming in from Eastern Europe. Yet you want the Palestinians who were a majority in their own land to partition more than half their land and give it to a foreign entity! Who would ever do that? Well, if you seem to point out the Mufti's statements which were made 65 years ago, what about statements made by Israeli leaders today who say Jordan is Palestine and many call for expelling Palestinians to Jordan. No action taken against them!

[@JosephStern]

The Arabs made a bad miscalculation in 1948. They looked at the few hundred thousands of ragtag Jews, many of whom had come there penniless and starving from the ravages of Eastern Europe, and they looked at their gigantic territories and their vast armies, and they said to hell with peace. They believed they could, in the words of the Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini, "drive the Jews into the sea". They were wrong. They lost. They were humiliated in battle. Now they need to accept the outcome.

[@WearyWitness]

An independent state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip with Jerusalem as their capital has been their goal. They went to the UN asking for it and an overwhelming majority supported the idea!

[@WearyWitness]

I might agree with you on this one, but don't see how you are replying to my point!

[@WearyWitness]

Menachem Begin, leader of Gahal Party: “In June 1967 we again had a choice. The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches did not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.” (cited in New York Times, Aug. 21, 1982.)

[@WearyWitness]

First you blame the third world and now even France! Guess you'd have some crazy things to say about Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Austria, Switzerland, Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Finland and many more who voted in favor of the resolution. The BDS movement is growing strong against Israeli apartheid and more and more people are seeing the true face of Israel. Zionism will fall just as apartheid did in South Africa

[@darkregions]

Jews aren't najis " impure" in shia jurisprudence... wth did you pull that from???

[@emptyhearted9981]

no Shiite links to Syria? really?

[@JosephStern]

The term 'genocide' has a very specific meaning: the murder or attempted murder of an entire race or nation. Let me help you understand a simple point of mathematics. The death of 700 people in the course of a time-limited military confrontation, the vast majority of whom were armed combatants, does not come anywhere within striking distance of the notion of genocide. This kind of perniciously deceptive and duplicitous abuse of language says much about who you are, and what you are capable of.

[@JosephStern]

The phenomenon of "refusenik" soldiers is interesting, but not unexpected. It is the result of subjecting a sensitive, intelligent, peaceable people to decades of threat, attack, hatred, incitement, and stress. Where are the Palestinian refuseniks? Surely there must be some sensitive souls who can accept a small Jewish state, and feel it is not worth shedding blood for? You don't hear from them because they are silenced by the fear of being savagely murdered by their own friends and relatives.

[@JosephStern]

The settlements are an important negotiating chip, from the Israeli viewpoint. Without them, it would be more difficult to maintain the position that the West Bank is actually disputed territory over which negotiation is required. A Jewish civilian presence is important in this connection. Additionally, the area is a dense locus of ancient Jewish history. It is natural that Jews should want to settle there; and Israel is not going to enforce a "Judenrein" policy on behalf of anti-Jewish Arabs.

[@JosephStern]

To conflate the Jewish historical claim with that of the Christians and the Muslims is a rather weak argument. The Jewish flourishing in the land of Israel began more than a millenium before the birth of Christ, and nearly two millennia before that of Muhammad.

[@gndggqsq-rp5rj]

those jews were sinners . so they have no land. zoin scum

[@JosephStern]

The Palestinians have had literally dozens of opportunities to negotiate over this disputed territory in good faith. Prime Minister Barak offered them a deal comprising some 95% of the territory in question, asking only a small buffer strip to assuage security concerns, arising from a history of invasion after invasion by Arab armies with the intent to annihilate. Had they accepted the offer, independent statehood would have followed shortly. A state alongside Israel, however, is not their goal.

[@JosephStern]

The two charters aren't equivalent. The Likud charter, for instance, contains this passage: "The Palestinians can run their lives freely in the framework of self-rule, but not as an independent and sovereign state." This fairly characterizes the general tone of the document toward Palestinians. Here's the Hamas charter: "The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews; until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, come kill him."

[@JosephStern]

Regarding the settlements: the territory on which they exist may be considered "occupied" under international law, but both parties in the conflict see matters quite differently. To the Palestinians, to include both Hamas and the PLO, the entire land from river to sea is "occupied territory" --- in direct contravention of international law. To Israel, the West Bank is what used to be referred to as "disputed territory", to be negotiated over, provided its own security needs are adequately met.

[@Alex1979AAA]

Thank you for the lecture. it was very educational especially about the history of the Sunnites and Shiites and how Israel plays into all of it

[@WearyWitness]

Mordechai Bentov, cabinet minister: “This story about the danger of extermination has been a complete invention and has been blown up a posteriori to justify the annexation of new Arab territories.” (cited in Le Monde, June 3, 1972)

[@JosephStern]

In the years leading up to 1948, both the Jews and the Arabs had exactly the same opportunity to apply intelligence and determination to the struggle for political control that both sides knew was coming. The Jews sent their young men to volunteer with the British army, to learn the arts of modern warfare and diplomacy; they appealed to successful Jewish men of the Diaspora for money and resources; they organized themselves into a government-in-waiting, and trained their forces with discipline.

[@JosephStern]

I didn't blame France for anything. I said that they were rationally pursuing their interests. For this, I ascribe them no special blame. That is what nations do. I addressed them only to disabuse you of your notion that France's opposition to Israel's actions has any objective meaning. It does not. It is the logical position for France, given their interests. That is all.

[@WearyWitness]

The Al-Dura affair was bad, but you'll have to look at the context of where it happened. Why were the Israeli soldiers there in the first place? In violation of international law. And blaming a whole group of people, 'Arabs'? Imagine what'll happen if one blames the 'Jews', they'll be immediately labelled anti-semite! Btw Semitic people are people from the Mediterranean which include the Palestinians!

[@JosephStern]

You cannot have it both ways. You like to argue that Israel "defies the entire world", and that this implies its illegitimacy. Yet now you dismiss the decision of the UN to implement a partition plan in 1948. Are there any firm principles people like you will cleave to? Or will you always pretend to have principled reasons for adopting whatever position is convenient for your argument at the time?

[@meerzaali167]

Khamenei rocks. He's the most brilliant military strategist today alonwith being the best statesman ever. A modern day Alexander and Hannibal.

[@WearyWitness]

In that case, the UN Partition of Palestine was of nobody's business. Why did the UN have to partition? Who were the Brits, Americans, French, Russians to decide the fate of Palestine? Why not ask the Palestinian people themselves, who were an Arab majority at that time? And why does America fund Israel $3 billion every year? I guess it shouldn't be the US's business too!

[@JosephStern]

I'm sorry, but in the choice whether to have life made difficult by traffic jams or to have life made difficult by suicide bombs in pizzerias and shopping malls, I would choose to impose the former rather than to accept the latter --- and I would wager that you would choose likewise. As for Palestinians leaving the West Bank, that is their choice. The intelligent and well socialized ones have made an understandable choice in so doing. They have the alternative to accept Israel and make peace.

[@JosephStern]

There is no "argument" for whose sake the proposition might be considered. The archaeological and documentary record is clear and overwhelming. The Jews are the oldest surviving culture indigenous to the Levant. It is where Jewish kings reigned for centuries, where Jewish soldiers fought Babylonians, Assyrians, Greeks, and Romans, where Jewish scholars and thinkers created monotheistic religion and founded one of the two great strands of Western Civilization. In short, it is the Jewish homeland.

[@WearyWitness]

Yes I know I can't have it both ways! I was referring to your point of saying it is not the World's business. It is the world's business! I do not dismiss the partition! The partition never called for the expulsion of Palestinian Arabs. My point is that if Israel refers to the UN Partition, it must also agree to other UN resolutions like 194 which call on the Palestinians to return to their homes!

[@WearyWitness]

Hamas has routinely said they want a Palestinian state in the West Bank, Gaza Strip with Jerusalem as the capital and the right of the refugees to return. This is line line with International law. When the whole world views the West Bank and Gaza as occupied territories, Palestinians would definitely have a sense of hope and resist their occupiers. There is no dispute, except among Israel supported by the US. Even France recently voted at the UN granted Palestine a non-member state!

[@JosephStern]

Have you ever traveled in Israel? If you had, I should doubt very much that you could maintain your belief in the fatuous left-wing propaganda about Israeli "apartheid". If you have the means, I strongly urge you to simply go there and see the place for yourself. What you will find there will surprise you profoundly. Cheers.

[@WearyWitness]

Yes, Jews do share a history with Christians, Muslims and many more people who lived there. Why stop at a time when Jews used to live there. Why not go back earlier and see who lived before the Jews? Just because Jews lived in that parcel of land 2000 years ago does not give Israel the right to oppress who is living them and turn them into refugees!

[@JosephStern]

As to Gaza, it is certainly difficult to be admitted there through Israel. There are excellent reasons for this, however, as dozens and sometimes hundreds of deadly Katyusha rockets launched from Gaza wreak chaos in the cities and towns of southern Israel every day. You might have tried gaining entry from the Sinai through the Rafa entrance, but in this you would almost certainly have been frustrated. Even the Egyptians know better than to let this border operate openly.

[@JosephStern]

Your statements here are quite disingenuous. I have been through the West Bank myself on several occasions. It is true that the roads are occasionally bottlenecked by Israeli checkpoints. What you fail to add is that the vast majority of roads within the West Bank are completely free, and there is a great deal of Arab commerce along them. Checkpoints exist on major roadways that eventually enter Israel or its main settlement blocks. They are a necessary security measure, and that is that.

[@MrFawadm79]

just shows its israeli policy to sow dissension in the musim world

[@WearyWitness]

If you seem to be referring to the arrest of children, you can google 'Israeli soldiers arresting Palestinian children' and see reports from the Israeli NGO Machsom Watch about the notorious Ofer Prison. Recently, a bunch of British parliamentarians visited the prison and saw the conditions for themselves. I was filming outside Ofer last year and saw Israeli soldiers using live bullets at peaceful protesters!

[@WearyWitness]

There is no 'right' of Western Allies to dictate terms in a region which does not belong to them. You seem to have a colonial mentality! Who were the Brits living so far away to rule Palestine. The Brits were occupiers of Palestine just the way they were in India and all over the world. There were two populations, one overwhelmingly Arab and two, a small minority of Jews who were fleeing the holocaust Hitler committed! How did the Jews become a majority? After Israel expelled the Arab majority

[@JosephStern]

An idiotically ahistorical statement. This is not a matter of value judgement. The invading Arab hordes who swept into the Levant from the Arabian Peninsula in the Seventh Century did not ask anyone's permission when they attacked, conquered, forcibly converted, and ruled the indigenous Syrian Christians. They had the opportunity and the ability to sieze power, and they did. Later on, a new, more vigorous group seized power from them. So it is, so it has always been, from time immemorial.

[@WearyWitness]

So would you say that to people like Miko Peled, Ilan Pappe, Uri Davis, Uri Avinery, Daniel Levy, Daniel Seidemann, Amira Hass and many others in Israel who share similar views on apartheid? Yes, the overwhelming majority are dictatorships but the people in the Middle East are in complete solidarity with the Palestinians. They are prevented from doing much because of the dictatorships. Btw the way most of the dictators like the Saudi king are supported by Western powers!

[@JosephStern]

Some came from Eastern Europe and Russia. A great many lived there all along, in continuously Jewish cities like Safed, which were sprinkled throughout the land. After the Arab invasion of 1948 was turned back and defeated, a roughly equal number of Jews as came from Europe and Russia were expelled from the countries of the Arab world, and were absorbed into the Jewish state.

[@WearyWitness]

Of course I've traveled to Palestine and Israel. Israel did not let me go to Gaza but I could see the large scale colonization and apartheid being implemented against the Palestinians in the West Bank and even inside Israel. How can Israel continuously build settlements inside territory it occupies and deny the Palestinians basic right to movement? When it used to take 10min to go from Ramallah to Jerusalem, it takes 1 hour to go there nowadays and most Palestinians are even barred entry!

[@gusibrahim6961]

Humans are still so primitive species and this spectrum is a prime example.

[@sarahameed7939]

Jazakallah

[@JosephStern]

You appear to hold a number of strange ideas about the region, all of which are de rigueur among the academic Marxist left, but none of which bear the slightest relation to actual fact. One should learn first whereof one speaks.

[@JosephStern]

You seem to have no understanding of how the world works. The Western Allies won the right to dictate terms in the region by defeating the Ottoman Empire in World War I. The Palestine Mandate came under British responsibility, and then United Nations responsibility, by those means. That is how the world works. There were, when the British arrived, two populations living in the land. The only alternative open to them was to propose a partition plan. This would have brought peace immediately.

[@WearyWitness]

You want to talk about 'charters'! What about the Likud charter that says there will be no Palestinian state from the Jordan river to the Mediterranean Sea... Even the charter of Naftali Bernett's party! How do you expect the Palestinians to sit and negotiate with them? Yet they did for a period of time!

[@rishabpatwari5821]

descision

[@WearyWitness]

No I'm not wrong, look up 'Israeli soldiers using Palestinians as human shields'. Even B'T'Selem, an Israeli NGO proves it! You'll find some videos as well. Ah ha! So you agree that Israel has nuclear weapons unlike the state itself who wants to keep it a 'secret'! Remember what they did to Vanunu? The kind of solitary confinement and torture he went through, no one can imagine!

[@WearyWitness]

India liberated Bangladesh when Pakistani troops murdered 3 million Bangladeshis not recognizing a democratic election. There is no such think as liberation of 'Uttar Pradesh' or 'West Bengal'... Pls back it up with evidence and show me some links! I could easily use this kind of harsh rhetoric and language, will not get through to a meaningful conversation and makes one look stupid! Palestine will soon be free, history has always shown that people's power always overcomes military might!

[@anthonyianello169]

Palestine free from Hamas

[@JosephStern]

Your other contentions here are just obvious lies, not worthy of any particular response, except to note that you are demonstrably a liar.