Helen Joyce on Youth Gender Medicine | The Good Fight with Yascha Mounk

Helen Joyce is an Irish journalist and the Director of Advocacy at Sex Matters. She is the author of Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality.
In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and Helen Joyce discuss the findings of an independent review by Hilary Cass of gender identity services for children and young people in the United Kingdom; how government and public health institutions in the UK have come to take a more skeptical view of gender-affirming care for young people than in the US; and the need for a more thoughtful and nuanced approach to trans issues which considers the rights and safety of all individuals involved.
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Twitter: @Yascha_Mounk & @joinpersuasion
LinkedIn: Persuasion Community

[@Schatzie1964]

Helen Joyce is the most intelligent and measured voice on this issue. I never get tired of listening to her and I hope her voice continues to be heard so we can stop the damage to young people.

[@susanhill833]

She is LYING to you. The Cass review was discredited as greatly FLAWED, Even Cass herself has said so. Here is the REAL truth about Gay and Transgenderism: It is NOT about chromosomes (the XX or the XY) or the BODY, it is about the STRUCTURE of the human brain. A Doctor with a Ph.D. in Genetics and his team did research on the STRUCTURE of the human brain. They studied the brain of straight women and straight men, gay women, and gay men, as well as transgendered women and transgendered men. What they found is this, the STRUCTURE of the brain between a male and a female is as different from each other as night is from the day. They also found that there are two distinct and separate areas of the brain that deal with sexuality and gender. They found that the area for sexual orientation in gay men is STRUCTURED the same as in straight women, NOT straight men, and in gay women, that area is STRUCTURED the same as in straight men, NOT straight women. Likewise, the center in the brain that deals with gender identity is the same, in transgender women (male to a female) it is STRUCTURED the same as in cis-women, (born and identify as female) NOT cis-men, (born and identify as male), and in transgender men, (female to male) it is STRUCTURED the same as in cis-men, NOT cis-women. It has been STRUCTURED this way since BEFORE birth. Two other teams in different parts of the world doing the same study all independent of each other found the exact same results. When a baby is first formed in the womb it is formed 100% female. Then after a few weeks, a signal from the father's genes tells the baby's body, the body only, to change and become male. The baby goes on for a few more weeks this way until it can produce a massive amount of the male hormone testosterone, which then tells the brain to change into the male pattern, such a massive amount will never be seen in that Child's life again except at the onset of puberty. If for some reason that baby does not get that massive dose of testosterone in the womb then the brain, or parts of it, continues to develop in the female pattern. Or in the case of gay women or Trans men, at some time in the mother's pregnancy that baby received a small dose of testosterone at the wrong time, either the mother ingested it somehow or her body produced it or the baby’s own body produced it all of which can and have happened. When a baby is being formed in the womb, any variation, even in the slightest, of the chemicals can cause birth defects. You have seen these birth defects in babies being born all the time, some born blind, or deaf, born with missing limbs, or heart problems, or even with a spine outside of the body, and many, many others. So why is it so hard for the right to believe that a person’s BRAIN can be STRUCTURED in the opposite way from what their bodies say they should be? You can believe in all other birth defects so why not this? I will use transgender women for this example, even though the body is male she likes all the same things a cis-gender woman likes, her emotional likes, wants and needs are the same as any woman's, and the way she sees the world is the same. Her interactions are the same, everything about her is the same as any cis-gender woman except the body. Sexual characteristics (the body) are set by the genes (the XX or the XY) but Gender is set by the STRUCTURE of the BRAIN, this has been proven through sound scientific study. Gender is how one see themselves and their place in the world and how they interact with it. If your body is set one way and your brain the other it causes a disharmony of mind and body (gender dysphoria) it is not now or ever has been a DELUSION or a PERVERSION or a MENTAL ILLNESS. When someone is going through life with this Dysphoria their life is a living hell, when people tell them that they can't be WHO they are inside because that person is uncomfortable with it then you are forcing the trans person to live in severe PAIN, Anxiety, and Depression, a PAIN that having your arms and legs cut off with a dull rusty hacksaw without any anesthetics seem like nothing in comparison, a pain that kills, LITERALLY KILLS. Think of everything you like and want as a man or a woman, everything that makes you, you, and then think how you would feel if you were constantly told that you can't have it, or be it, or do the things you love, because you are the opposite of who and what you are now, that you must bury everything that makes you, you because other people don't like it because it makes them uncomfortable, If constantly you were told that you were evil and dammed because you are who you are, denied a job, or a home, insulted, belittled, assaulted and even targeted to be KILLED just because you exist, how would you feel? Women, think how would you feel if you were forced to live, think, told to feel like and be a man, And told that you MUST do what men do, how men do it, see things the way men see them in order to be a man and you MUST be a man and that something is wrong with you if you don’t? How would you handle that? Men, think how you would feel if you were forced to live, think, feel, and be a woman? Told that you MUST do what women do, how women do it, see things the way women see them in order to be a woman and you MUST be a woman and that something is wrong with you if you don’t? How would you handle that? A trans woman does NOT fit, in a man’s social circle the same way a man does and yet they are expected to if they do not go through transition, they are expected to think, feel, and act just like any cis-gender man in that circle, but they can’t because their brain is STRUCTURED differently, so they are insulted, belittled beat on ridiculed, and humiliated by these men, constantly, all because their brain is STRUCTURED the same way a cis-gender woman’s brain is STRUCTURED. With their brain being STRUCTURED that way they would fit into a woman’s social circle but with their bodies being male, again they don’t fit in and they are excluded. They want to wear the same outfits the women wear because their brains tell them they should be just like them. Everything inside them SCREAMS that they are just like the people who are of the opposite gender and yet they are NOT allowed to be because other people are uncomfortable with them doing so, so they are FORCED to live in severe PAIN, anxiety, and depression. Trans people just want to be accepted for who they are, they want and are deserving of the very same rights as everyone else, no more and NO LESS. Here is the truth about the road to transition: First, the person MUST go to therapy, no therapy no transition, they will meet with a therapist who has knowledge and experience with transgender people. During this time they will begin social transitioning, social transitioning is nothing more than changing one's name and pronouns, and appearance such as hairstyle and clothing. Then after a number of sessions with the therapist (usually about a year) if the Dysphoria continues, and depending on the age of the person they may be given puberty blockers, (which are reversible). Then after many more sessions with the therapist and again if the Dysphoria continues they may be given hormones, it is these that have irreversible effects. Last: when they reach the age of CONSENT (CONSENT, NOT A KID, NO ONE IS DOING SURGERY ON KIDS) and if the Dysphoria continues, and if they have lived in the gender of their choice for a MINIMUM of 1 full year, and have letters from two therapists with one having a P.HD in psychology with both therapists having seen the person over a period of time they may get a consult from the surgeon, and there is usually a long waiting list for that, after the consult if the surgeon agrees then you get on the long waiting list for the surgery. IF ANYONE TELLS YOU DIFFERENTLY FROM THIS THEY ARE LYING TO YOU. Definition of a woman: How you define a woman is by how she sees herself, a woman is one who sees herself as one in mind and soul. If a person sees themselves as a woman, thinks as a woman, acts as a woman, and lives as a woman, then what is the harm to treat and respect her as one? If you cannot have compassion for another human being then how can you ask others to have compassion for you? Show compassion, empathy, and respect by calling them the name they prefer and with the pronouns they prefer. It does NOT harm you to do so but it does great harm to them when you don’t. Definition of a Man: How you define a man is by how he sees himself, a man is one who sees himself as one in mind and soul. If a person sees themselves as a man, thinks as a man, acts as a man, and lives as a man, then what is the harm to treat and respect him as one? If you cannot have compassion for another human being then how can you ask others to have compassion for you? Show compassion, empathy, and respect by calling them the name they prefer and with the pronouns they prefer. It does NOT harm you to do so but it does great harm to them when you don’t. Some of you reject the LGBTQ community because you have a need to feel morally superior to others, “pull the beam out of your own eyes before you try to pull the mote out of another’s”. Some of you reject the LGBTQ community because you don’t understand it and it fills you with fear, fear of something that is different from what you are used to, different from YOU, either one goes forward or one stagnates and dies, you limit your thinking and can’t or won’t learn, grow, and adapt. Some of you reject the LGBTQ community because you just want to hate and hurt others, it gives you a sick thrill, and you use the LGBTQ as an excuse to do so. But ALL of you who do these are small, weak, insecure, monumentally stupid, and utterly pathetic excuses of human beings.

[@stopthephilosophicalzombie9017]

Exculansic (I don't know her real name) is excellent also, as is Wesley Yang and Leor Sapir.

[@Aarenby]

She is an eugenicist

[@Oceanfoxy]

I love listening to Helen Joyce she never disappoints

[@susanhill833]

She is LYING to you.

[@Islas_Canarias]

@susanhill833 You are the liar. Spoto!!

[@susanhill833]

@@Islas_Canarias No I am not, what I said was and is truth.

[@ohutton]

@@susanhill833 example please

[@m_a_i_l_l_i_w]

Biggest medical scandal since lobotomies. Helen is one of the voices of reason.

[@vegaa1]

Don't listen to Helen Joyce speak unless you're in the mood for being reminded about how sorry our politicians are. Here is a woman who knows what it means to prefer dignity and reason over compassion. She's rational, resilient, and just right. And the scariest thing about all this is that there are a lot of people (mostly on the left) who want to shut her down, take away her speech rights, or even imprison her. Instead, this should be viewed by all members of Congress. Bravo Yascha for asking penetrating questions.

[@freidamaverick2535]

I feel that Helen Joyce is incredibly compassionate, and she demonstrates how to apply rational reason for a dignified, compassionate outcome for all. I agree - politicians absolutely should listen to her, and take notes!

[@urayamu]

The pluralistic and secular "thinking about it as a religion" argument made by Joyce is solid. Great interview as usual.

[@helendancelot]

Exulansic did excellent analogy with religion

[@lynnebarnes3840]

Helen Joyce makes me feel sane again. The perfect antidote to TRANS activist gaslighting.

[@PattisKarriereKarten]

Yascha‘s book „The identity trap“ was great, so it astonishes me that he really doesn’t seem to understand that there really is no such thing as a legitimate trans person and the movement is also not legitimate because they consist of fetishists and other persons with an agenda that has nothing to do with equal rights. The first group was basically made trans by society and the second group is a political totalitarian movement that wants power and push men’s rights to take out their fetish in public.

[@ratonsito2836]

I think he is playing devil's advocate here.

[@ohutton]

@@ratonsito2836 exactly

[@kelleyfrench9663]

Helen Joyce can single-handedly save the world. Her moral compass is exceptional.

[@dreimalnein22]

Yascha seems not completely informed entering this conversation. And didn't take in so many thought provoking statements of Helen. Rather ignored them. So it's really dull to end the conversation where he decided to. The only brave thing to me is publicly shed one's own failure to comprehend and reply.

[@abirdkilledmeh]

And he kept interrupting her

[@SuperJoeyMusic]

Seriously, let her speak.

[@lisaobrien7330]

Helen Joyce ! I just adore her, I could listen to her all day.

[@katedean6258]

Helen at her best today. Great questions

[@kadimah1]

There's no moral tragedy in making sure children and vulnerable adults have the capacity to make clear decisions before intervening medically. There's no moral remainder.

[@Tawny593]

I always look forward to hearing Helen's interviews. So brilliant. Thinks of things no one else does.

[@mrstiger5497]

He's getting confused with gay and trans, though....interesting that his friends thought that by being gay they were changing society, too. My lesbian friends just are attracted to women, not that it's important to change society.

[@BTphosheezy]

I just love listening to her. She's so refreshing😍♥️

[@simama666]

LaRell's detransitioning story is another heartbreaking one. For Heaven's sake, my son was convinced he could/would marry me when he grew up.

[@voices_vary]

Excellent point about organizations morphing to other issues after success in one issue. The survival of the organization and funding sources become the primary motivation, even if the members don't fully grasp that.

[@Tunick1902]

Both Mounk and Joyce are wonderful, articulate and interesting.

[@ThreeFineWonders]

Great constructive discussion with fresh ideas from Joyce as ever.

[@TrainBorn]

Fantastic, smart, nuanced discussion. Thank you both.

[@gabrielmills2361]

Such a pleasure -- and a relief -- to hear this calm and compassionate voice of reason, against the frenzied and aggressive narcissism of transactivist-driven demands for "trans rights" -- and to hell with anyone else's rights. Thank you Helen Joyce, and please keep talking and writing.

[@dreimalnein22]

30:39 NO! NOOOOO! Dear Yascha, noooooooo! i get disappointed, i am giving up on you in this conversation temporary. Integrate what Helen said, not ignore it and go back. Noooo!

[@Weissguys6]

Thank you. Let’s hope the facts he heard begin to make it into his actual brain. Sometimes it takes a bit of reflection.

[@SandraEaston-Lawrence]

What a terrible interlocutor this man is! He responded to only one or two of HJ's comments, and then to interrupt her. Talking to him must've been like shouting down a well. He needs to work on his social skills if he's wanting to make a go of this work.

[@freidamaverick2535]

Another superb Helen Joyce interview.

[@BasicAngel2266]

"It's dull!" but Helen J is completely awesome!

[@letwomenspeak2023]

Please learn to not interrupt

[@r.c.3614]

Love her. Wish she was my mother ❤

[@roxee57]

Yes, it’s really strange. We progressives used to think the way to progress society was to diminish the social forces that sought to impose conformity on individuals. This movement seeks to reestablish conformity so that men who want to be not men have something to aspire to, likewise for women. And rather than just social conformity with presentations and roles, & conformity given sanction by the state via laws, this movement also seeks conformity via extreme body modifications. Meanwhile we’re still a gonochoric species that reproduces via anisogamy.

[@Tawny593]

Jesus Christ, write normally.

[@balalaika852]

@@Tawny593 r/iamverysmart 😂

[@Tawny593]

@@balalaika852 Good one. 😂

[@soniaess28]

The position she has arrived at is very good.

[@dreimalnein22]

Yascha seems not completely informed here. Really dull to run away from Helen's last statement!

[@SandraEaston-Lawrence]

He really doesn't get it.

[@markshepperson3603]

HJ 4 PM

[@salvolondon]

He is too simple to get her .

[@loganjames3789]

Helen Joyce is a clear thinker and can pick through faulty arguments impressively well. She covers so much ground here. Her only fault, imv, is her feminism. She completely ignores the contributions of conservative women to this terrible situation. She does have progressive leanings. Noone is perfect.

[@mesfromusa]

Perfect ending.

[@ERH-ph5gb]

Around minute 53: I think you, as a moderator, are fundamentally misunderstanding something. "Trans people" have never been excluded, the eccentrics, as I call them - are people who go against the norm and WANT to - have always found their passions, professions and places where they could live out their inclinations. They have created their own scenes. These were often not ordinary biographies, but unusual ones. And that is also the goal of all those who don't want to live an ordinary life. They have never been actively excluded because they have taken themselves out of the norm and not without a certain pride and vanity. Why people are now pretending that they are an excluded group is completely far-fetched. If you want to be and represent something special in life, then you DON'T want to catch up with the normies, then you ARE determined to have an existence that doesn't want that. Modernity, and the 80s and 90s in particular, showed an extreme openness towards anything extraordinary. Just think of the Love Parade and Burning Man and all the artistic and musical events around the world. The many professions and opportunities to get into the artist, actor- and music scene. But you have to be willing to pick up a profession, to work hard for that extraordinary life, in the same way you have to work and educate yourself in ordinary lives. I highly disagree with the notion that those "trans"-people were fighting in the same way gay people fought. I think it is actually individuals who suffer from their state of being, and they themselves need to find support to become more happy and satisfied with what condition they have. If they are willing, they will find the support they need, if they can articulate themselves and communicate in a proper way.

[@eoiny]

Well said!!

[@gardener3017]

I wish this young man was as passionate about women’s rights as he is gay & trans rights. Like perhaps the plight of 18 million women in Afghanistan.

[@griff404]

the interviewer is bad. Talks too much. Let her speak.

[@teejarado5543]

Some comments criticise the interviewer for seeming to shed Helen's articulate and intelligent arguments without probing deeper, either to expose faults or reinforce their accuracy. And they have a point. I prefer to think that he chooses to remain, or appear to remain dispassionate and thus neutral. But no one is ever really neutral ré trans activism so Mounk comes off as mechanical, indifferent and cool. Fortunately Helen is the opposite.

[@miranda5340]

Love her

[@andreajones7023]

If there was an epidemic of gender related suicides, would you be able to name loads rather than just one which was seemingly not all about gender related issues at all?

[@ribbonsofnight]

Don't even have sex-workers in Brazil to pad the numbers like with homicides.

[@sherylwhite2201]

I just kept thinking He cant have any children orhave anything much to do with children. Also he seems to be submerged in a very intellectual approach to this, not at all in touch with the living reality.

[@carolynbrightfield8911]

The diet of a pregnant and breastfeeding woman who wants the best health outcome for her baby has become increasingly strict since the 1950s. But, now, a child can ruin their development for life, including their brains and bones. Oh, say no more, this is child a caboose. And, mostly it's male control of women (you're a bad mother if you drink alcohol during pregnancy - mostly men telling women. But at least there's real evidence behind that one) or, if you don't let your boy swap sex to ... (by male adults)

[@bcazz5202]

Yeah, that ending was a bit abrupt.

[@r.c.3614]

1:08:00 ❤

[@StuartGrant-fm6ti]

I'd love to know how many people actually anylize why they like something.. I'm really not sure most people do that, why would you unless you felt the need to justify it to someone else..??

[@fromchomleystreet]

He’s confusing desisting with detransition.

[@ginaweith9475]

This was excellent. The interviewer had some new angles to explore through his questions. His thinking is different from most people who interview HJ. I appreciate his thoughtfulness and imagination/ creativity. This wasn’t a typical HJ interview. I loved hearing HJs answers to these questions especially with respect to how do we manage this in a pluralistic society. Much to think about.

[@RM-xr8lq]

gender is a social construct luckily more people are approaching ethnography from a secular standpoint rather than involving the abrahamic gender binary

[@helendancelot]

Sex binary is world wide

[@RM-xr8lq]

@@helendancelot this is about gender modern lgbt groups is enough to disprove your proposition, as is historical groups such as the bugis society, chibados, hijra, kathoey, two-spirits, etc.

[@user-yc5lb8fw5r]

Sigh

[@user-yc5lb8fw5r]

Gay

[@biancawilloughby9980]

The number of children on puberty blockers at the time of the banning of blockers in March 2o24 is less than 100.

[@clovermark39]

100 too many.

[@paulcarten9592]

And what?

[@Itsstuff7328]

How do you know that? The figures I've heard is less than 1000, but with the caveat that is the number covered by Medicaid (in the US), that there's no way to gather figures either for private insurance or families who pay out of pocket

[@carolebrown-op7jg]

In which country? What are your sources for this?

[@user-hg9qs7ro8w]

yes, that is not a big group. for now. but look at the increase over the last 15 years. it grew significsntly in girls.